PS3 NeGcon - Can it be done???

[Sausehuhn]

Ehehehe. I know that feeling

[element42]

I've just seen this and I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Surely we could use an arduino to convert the Negcon output into something the PS3 could use?
An arduino is a great little microcontroller that you can program to do virtually anything assuming you have the electronics knowledge to build the appropriate circuit - which I don't, really!

I guess it would be easier to convert to a PS2/PS1 controller output and wire it in to a PS2 -> PS3 usb converter dongle. Some interesting info here... will have to work on this.

[IH8YOU]

You had to do that.... Pandoras box is open.

Thanks for the info - I will put this into consideration.

Approach thus-far has been to hybrid both controllers, as I do lack the programming, micro-controller / PIC expertise required for that. (though with guidance I'm able to do it, as I have done so before)

Oh yes - for everyone - the project is not dead - been busy month - serious family related things dealing with. Will resume once life returns to "normal".

[RDC]

Hope the OP doesn't mind, seems like the place to ask this instead of starting up a new thread.

How would you guys want it setup versus the PS3 controller? because there are going to be some limitations..

In WipEout HD for example, the steering and pitch is controlled by the left stick, and this can't be duplicated with the neGcon, it lacks the second Axis (up/down) that a Stick has and adding in buttons to duplicate it isn't really a serious option as that isn't Analog and ya loose the precision, it's doable, but not how I'd prefer to go about it. Also using the Tilt function for that is right out as twisting the neGcon will play havoc with the Accelerometer (if kept internal) or be useless if the board is left out of the neGcon, so either way that's no option.


Since the PS3 controller has 17 buttons and 4 axis in total versus the neGcon's 11 button and 1 Axis, some things are going to have to either go or be dealt with in some fashion to make it even half usable for some games and almost sure to cripple it for others. Adding in the Select and PS buttons are not a big deal at all, neither is getting around the common ground setup of the neGcon versus the 3 common line setup of the PS3 controller, nor is adding any additional buttons to make up for the neGcon's lack thereof, but Axis are another thing, as are maintaining the majority of the PS3 controller buttons Analog feature.

Stripping the neGcon and 'piggy backing' it onto a PS3 controller isn't the real issue, it's getting it setup to actually be usable in a game that is the PITA since it's really a half controller half steering wheel, or 1/3 of what a normal PS3 controller is capable of, and since the game doesn't know you're using the neGcon it can't reconfigure itself for using it properly, like it can on the PS1 where in game ya have control over it's settings, as far as the PS3 is concerned you're using a PS3 controller.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...con/neGcon.jpg

..this is just the Twist and I/II buttons wired up to the Left Stick (left/right) and R1/R2 for a quickie test in MotoGP '08 (demo, and yes, yes I know it's not WipEout, apologies for that, just fired it up for a test is all ). There's no LED lit up on the controller either because all of them have been removed.

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...=neGcon022.flv


I plan to mess around slowly on this project, tinker on it from time to time as I have another project in the works that's taking up my real play/hack time, and I may take this in a different direction once I get some time to really spend on it, I'll have to wait and see on that one.

Also, just so anyone that's interested knows, there are at present 10 versions of known wireless PS3 controllers (none really like any PS controller layout before it) and any of them can be used for something like this. The major version changes are different from each other with each having it's advantage/disadvantage to using it, which makes it an even bigger mess, so if ya have any serious aspirations about doing this be prepared to do some research and a lot of figuring some things out, like the newer 4 leg 'Digital POTs', which aren't anything more than Hall Effect sensors and Op-Amps, almost identical to Dreamcast controllers, and it all boils down to the exact same thing in the end as what the Potentiometer did in there once ya figure it all out. The controller used in the above pic/vid is one of the newer DS3 versions, MSU_3.5X 1.14, that has the newer Digital POTs.

Getting the PS3 controller stuffed into the neGcon is pretty much right out as well, not without really hacking down and rebuilding the PS3 controller, I could probably get it stuffed in there (I managed to get a wired 360 controller into a PS3 shell, a few times ) but even then that's only half of the battle as ya still have the battery to deal with, so keeping it external is really the best way to go.

I agree that using some type of PIC/MCU/AVR would be the best way to go, but even then it would have to either be connected to some PS3 controller to work, unless the PS3 controller protocols are out there, and even then it'll have to be modeled after one controller or another. Doing it that way the neGcon can be kept 100% intact plus you'd have carte blanche over what did what and could put back in the sensitivity and dead zone options (on the control box) that the game lacks because it's going on the fact that a PS3 controller is being used, but as IH8YOU touched on, that takes some serious programming/coding skillz to pull off, where as a hardware hack isn't that difficult, as the crappy vid above already shows, but even it lacks in some places for certain things, so both ways are viable options with their own advantages/disadvantages.

[RDC]

Here's a short WipEout vid to make up for the MotoGP one.

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...=neGcon023.flv

[JABBERJAW]

I thik the main thing is getting the twist to work correctly, at 90 degrees maximum. IF this works, there are enough options for the rest. dpad can control pitch and barrel rolls. I would take ALL out of the negcon, and put in pushbuttons (small), all coming out in wire fashion to the other controller (soldered to board), then that controller is plugged in as usual. This way, no lag, but it will be a frankenstein controller.

[Darkdrium777]

About the axis missing for pitch: as you control the direction or steering of the ship with the twist, your left hand rests free on the D-Pad, and therefore can control pitch using the D-Pad itself (The up and down arrows), so that is not a problem. In this way it will in fact work just like it used to back in the day.

As for the missing trigger buttons, you have chat and look back. Chat is unimportant, as it simply doesn't work, so it can be left out. Look back, well let's think about it. We know that since version 1.30 the select button can no longer be binded (and it's not even on the negcon anyways), and all the other controls are essential (D-Pad left and right, X, O, [], airbrakes, start). So what is left? The triangle button. Triangle is change camera, but this can be set prior in the game options and is no longer needed during gameplay. So if we set look back on the negcon to be one of the buttons on the right part (the equivalent of triangle button), then we have all the controls needed mapped onto the pad. As you said, motion is right out, so again we don't need to think about it.

This results in a controller configuration like this:


While I was shooping Al posted, D-Pad can take care of barrel rolls as well. We can also have along the wire somewhere, if we put in a wire, a button for the PS button, and one for select as well, a lot like earphones with volume control, but it will be buttons instead of a knob. Or directly on the controller somewhere if you feel like drilling a hole in the precious shell (Which I would not do, as negCons are limited in numbers, and if you ever feel like putting the original controller back together well...)

[JABBERJAW]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-SideWi...QQcmdZViewItem

this pos controller could be the answer

thrustmaster dual strike controller

I just made the twist work !!! After I connected the three analog wires to the analog wires of the twist mechanism in the dual strike controller. It hit all of the angles without any choppiness. it did take a full turn to hit all the angles though, but this is a very good start. The controller itself is a PC controller, but all 8 buttons work for wipeout HD, so I will need to modify the negcon somewhat with holes, but that is ok. The buttons will need to be soldered to the board as well, since the buttons on that **** controller are switches directly on the board, and it will be a close call if they will fit into the negcon. the dpad on this controller is ASS, so I need to figure something out wtih that as well.

If you take apart a negcon, DO NOT REMOVE the twist gears. It %#%s up the entire thing, and even when put back together made a mess.

I am going to try and hook up to the wheel I had to see if that turns a little faster. Then I will try the wired ps3 controller again, not that the new negcon twisting mechanism is working fine.

[RDC]

I've had this one apart more than a few times already, no issues at all with it if ya put it back together the right way, the gears have a key, just line them up and it's fine.


Thanks for the replies guys, I'm honestly not a WipEout gamer (only have the demo to test it with) but a good controller hack I just can't pass up, which is why I'm tinkering with this thing.

I don't plan to drill into the shell any and stuffing it full of Tact switches isn't really my thing either. I've removed all of the components from the boards in the neGcon, minus the essentials, and am using the actual board that's in it for the button contacts and such. I did the same for the PS360 controller and others that I've done in the past, this keeps the controller feeling exactly like an original does, instead of it 'clicking' every time ya press a button or having to go thru the pain of making up custom ones. Every button on the PS3 controller is Analog anyway, so the ones in the neGcon that use the POTs are really no different at all and work just fine.

I've figured out how to get the Twist to actually have a few different sensitivity settings, just need to test it out more and get the values nailed down there, but making it so it maxes out at 90 will be pretty easy. One could just change the value of the POT in there from 10k to something around 5k or so and that would do the same thing, but I'm after having a few at least without having to go thru that mess if one isn't working out.

Adding any missing buttons is doable as they can stay on the box that will hold the PS3 controller along with the Twist sensitivity switches, so it's all good so far.

[JABBERJAW]

there isn't a way to change the sensitivity easily, is there? how did you do it?

ACTUALLY, the sensitivity somewhere between 45-60 would probably be better. I said 90 as an abosolute maximum turn, otherwise, it's not fast enough for wipeout

[RDC]

This is where I'm at with it right now..

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3.../neGcon034.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3.../neGcon035.jpg

That 10k POT in there has to go, it's just way too high a value to get the sensitivity down that low. A 5k POT for starters would be a much better starting point, then if need be it can be modified down to be more sensitive like I did with the 10k one.

Right now I have to go to around 100 on it to get a full turn out of it, and that's as sensitive as I can get it with that 10k POT in there as ya can only fudge it so far before it's starts to either get screwy on ya or just doesn't work, and yeah it does need to be more sensitive than that, but changing the POT to a lower value is the only way to do that while staying in the hardware hacking realm.

I'm off to hunt some catalogs for a good replacement.

[IH8YOU]

My I suggest a NON-LINEAR taper pot - these have fine motor control within the centroid area, but near the edges of the wipers (last 1/2 or 1/3 depending on what you order) it skyrockets.

Would be ideal for your situation, so centroid is maintained with repeatable accuracy - but outer swing responds sharply in the function of a square.

[JABBERJAW]

http://www.happ.com/amusement/acesor/repopts.htm


Would any of these work? some are actually namco.

[RDC]

@ JABBERJAW - All of those POTs are HUGE by comparison to what's already in the neGcon, size wise that is.

@ IH8YOU - That'll give it a big 'dead spot' in the center and without a precise Taper versus turn ratio it would be much worse as you'd have to turn it more and not less, so Linear is still the way to go here. We just have to change the 10k one in there out for a little lower value one as that 10k just isn't cutting it. Another thing that could be done here is to change the gearing ratio, but you'd have to fashion your own gears and then you'd run the risk of twisting the controller further than the POT could go and cause damage to one, the other or both.

Every other POT in the neGcon is a Logarithmic, with all 10k taking place within a short distance from one end and is why they can be used on the PS3 controller and still maintain the Analog function. I may wire up the PS3 box so the I and II buttons can be switched between X/[ ] and L2/R2 for any games that would use the Triggers as gas/brake, but for now getting it 100% functional in WipEout is the main concern.

The D-pad is now wired up, as are the rest of the buttons, the Pitching works fine, though the demo doesn't have a track to get enough air on to try a roll, but the left/right functions are there and work. The Right Airbrake is Digital while the Left Airbrake is Analog, that's how the neGcon is made, but it still works as most times when a Button/Trigger is pulled it's pulled all the way, so them being different really doesn't make much difference there, and with the controller constantly being twisted all over the place that makes it even harder to use the Analog one in that capacity anyway.

I'll know in a week or so how the new 5k POT will work out on the Twist, much better than the 10k for sure as the modifications I did on the 10k in there now were promising, just not quite enough. I'll let ya guys know and post up a new vid of it then as well with the 5k in there.

[lunar]

Here's a short WipEout vid to make up for the MotoGP one.

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...=neGcon023.flv

How did I miss this? You were just playing wipeout hd with a negcon

// Kleenex moment here.

Anyway, best of luck with it all and thanks for your effort. I would think the problem with a Negcon on this game would activating barrel rolls. Is there any way that left/right on the dpad could be used for steering also, so could be used for BR input? I`m not sure if that`s a good idea.

I can`t offer any technical help as I`m worse than useless with that sort of thing, but if I can help out by sending a tired old negcon for parts just let me know.

[RDC]

The D-pad already does the same thing as the Left Stick on the PS3 controller, steering and pitch, so using it to barrel roll should work just fine.

[IH8YOU]

I hate dead-zones - the dead-zones on the PS analogue sticks is precisely why I don't use them.

Having worked with other hardware that has next to ZERO dead-zone (all I can say is it's not civilian based hardware) - it's painful to use anything that has one now.

My solution was to shunt down the centroid to minimize deadzone, yet retain the gain ratio needed. I also had changing the gear ratio inside the pot drives to also expand reaction.

I found that without any software - the negcon must be twisted to the extremes for approximately 40% max-max in game rendering. I know official in-game support would completely eliminate this - but having next to zero coding experience, and wanting to skip using any controllers / interfaces - I'm going with a physical modification to the neggie.

Very interested in your route, too - so please keep up the bumping here.

[AG-wolf]

I'd be willing to help out on this, but it's been a dog's age since I did any sort of serious circuit-level electronics BS. I don't see why people can't improvise something in which the axis of the NeGcon is mapped to the L/R axis on the left control stick, up and down are mapped to either max tilt of the U/D axis of the left control stick or just d-pad U/D; the POTs of L and R wired to the pressure-sensitive traces of L1/2 and R1/2, and the POTs of I and II wired to the traces of X and []... just figure out the resistance value of the conductive pads of the buttons on the ps2 controller and replace the I and II POTs in the NeGcon with ones of the same value as the pads.

I've been doing some custom controller mods recently and one of my first project was wiring a PS2 Dual Shock 2 into a module box so I can re-wire other controllers as if they were a PS2 controller... I've been using a model 1 US/EUR Sega Saturn controller for Wipeout HD for the last couple weeks

This could be done relatively easilly...

[RDC]

Uh, that has all already been done, the video there proves the concept of it and I've already wired up everything else to it. I'll post up a new vid of everything else working, can't now as it's half torn down to swap out the 10k Twist POT with a 5k (soon as it shows up) because the range there is way off.

It's designed to turn almost a full 180 degrees and geared so the POT in there covers that range, so nothing happens when ya translate that to the Sticks X-Axis until ya hit the mid point or so of the Twist. It's like having a large wheel on a car versus a small wheel, if ya make 1 full rotation the car with the large wheel will have traveled much farther than the one with the small wheel, but each has only made 1 rotation. Likewise, the POTs used in the PS3 controllers versus the one in the neGcon have a different range as well, the PS3 controller stick only has to travel a short distance to cover that 10k range, where the neGcon POT has to turn almost 180 degrees to cover that same range, so we need a smaller wheel.

The D-pad already works the same as the Left stick, so as soon as it's wired up it can do Pitch and BRs.

All of the buttons on the PS2/3 controllers are Analog (save the stick buttons, Select, Back and Analog/Home) and the I/II and L of the neGcon are as well (R is Digital, just on or off) so they can be (and have already) wired right up to the PS3 controller for use and still maintain that Analog. The traces on the PS2/3 controllers aren't pressure sensitive exactly, they're Resistors, and the more ya press on them the lower the value gets, so they work more like a 10k~20k Variable Resistor (depends on the controller) down to 300ohms or so when fully pressed, but any description works in place for them, Analog, Pressure Sensitive, POT or Variable Resistor, just as long as ya know what they do in there and how to mimic it if need be.

The I, II and L button pots are Logarithmic POTs, kinda a pain to find them now and then to get one in the right size or a usable one would be more of a chore. The ones in there are 10k and that's what the PS3 controller buttons are as well, so it worked out, but even if the values were slightly off it still may have worked because of how they're used. They're basically just Pull-Ups, so they go from a high value to a low one when pressed, and everything in between, so anything around 10k should work fine, even on the PS2 controller where they're around 15~20k. I always though this was a pretty ignorant idea as ya have maybe 2mm of travel there, not much range to be very accurate, where the neGcon has close to 7mm of travel on the I and II buttons and around 5mm or so for L, which translates to being a whole lot more precise with the value ya can get out of the POT on there. Same with the 'Twist' of the neGcon, ya have a much larger 'bullseye' to hit compared to using a stick, so ya can be more precise with it, after getting over the learning curve of using it that is.

The PS3 controller, especially the latter versions, are a completely different animal from a PS2 controller also. The 'Digital POTs' (uses Hall Effect sensors and Op-Amps instead of 10k potentiometers) are one thing, there are 3 separate common lines in the PS3 controllers. If the Daughter board is removed the controller will act up something awful, this is because it has 2 Pull-Up Resistors on it and they need to be put back in the circuit for the controller to function properly, and on the latter versions they've done away with the Daughter board connector and used carbon pads so that the connection is made only when the controller is together, so ya have to either leave it together or solder the Resistors to the board. Also on the very latest version of DS3 they have done away with all of the TP spots, so there aren't any easy places at all to solder to on that puppy except 1, the Daughter board contacts.

As soon as the XS forums are back up (I post over there as RDC as well) I'll post a link to all the PS3 controller versions and major differences between them that I've noticed, it should be of help for any of ya that are attempting this or anything like it with a PS3 controller.



In case anyone is curious, I've done a lot of custom controller work already, most of it just to see if I could and that's the main reason I'm having a go at this one.

I've stuffed a DS3 (DualShock 3) into a 360 controller shell (on several occasions ) also put a Wireless 360 controller in an XBOX Duke shell, put a Wired 360 controller into an XBOX S-controller shell, put a Wired 360 controller into a PS3 controller shell, put a PS3 D-pad in the 360 shell, swapped the D-pad and Left stick on a 360 controller (so it's in a PS style layout) and swapped the ABXY and D-pad on another one for a more 'complete' SouthPaw controller, as well as made arcade stick boxes for both 360 and PS3 controllers, so I should make a good run on this one, just have to smooth out the bumps, or in this case get that close to 180 degree of max twist to play ball in a 75 to 90 degree range (hence the POT change) The more ideas, input and such the better though, as there's always another way to skin that cat and some are better than others.

3PS60 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...PS60_v2018.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...PS60_v2023.jpg

PS360 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...0/PS360055.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...S360BST005.jpg

360PS - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...S/360PS040.jpg

Duke360 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...keProto010.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...keProto034.jpg

36D - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...60D-pad024.jpg

Sinister - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...rs/Greggg2.jpg

Arcade Stick module boxes..

360 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...pBox360008.jpg

PS3 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...pBoxPS3010.jpg

[lovedr]

i like to say that i understand most of whats been said in this thread - but i'd be lying, however i am following the progress intently.

...there are some seriously enviable skill sets out there amongst you guys, well done with progress so far and many hearty thanks for making this project a reality.

</wet dream>