No Barrel Rolls?

[terra-wrists]

Hi everyone, Hi R8Games :)

I've been playing wipeout since its birth, was there from the beginning. And I loved it, every reincarnation of the game has been amazing (even Fusion - the 2 player split screen was amazing).

However, as we know, the PSP incarnations saw the introduction of Barrel Rolls, and though I didn't like them at first, they've grown on me to the point where I cannot imagine wipEout without the BR's.

Last night I was racing with a good friend and member of WZ and we were messaging each other about the whole Formula Fusion no BR issue. Now, as much as we appreciate the whole re-ignition of this game, we really had a hard time understanding why the Barrel Rolls were taken out?

And what will replace this mechanic which requires an ongoing skill which develops and increases the addiction of this game? Some members have recommended that no turbos be available in the game and instead - an option to turn each wep into a turbo instead - for me, this makes no sense as all we'd see is weps being converted to turbos in every race. Some others have made similar suggestions but none of them require the player to develop a specific skillset as in the case of barrel rolling.... I mean, it's hard enough to BR in some spots, but once that skillset is developed, it's a logical progress for the player to chain BR, by getting extra air from the last BR to BR all over again - it's tricky, but easily done by those who have invested time into the game - it's one of the things which keeps them coming back to race with us.

I feel that if barrel rolls were to go, we'd essentially be losing the evolutionary heritage of wipEout in formula fusion - and thus, I'd probably stack FF in line with the other futuristic racers which wanted to be wipeout but didn't quite cut the grade.

Your thoughts are welcome,

Thank you for listening to my rant. :)

[vincoof]

I’m a bit like you, in that I didn’t like barrel rolls at first but eventually I got used to it. However, if they are gone in FF, I’m not sure I’d be so sad about it. I like the gameplay it adds (high risk high reward) but I dislike the need to left/right/left (feels weird in a racing game, not to mention all the times you want to left/right/left and don’t want to BR).

In the end we also have to remember FF is not meant to be a clone of WipEout. Sure we shall have a bit of its feeling but not a copy of it.

[JABBERJAW]

I really don't need them if the gameplay is similar to earlier games, where making turns requires sliding around them instead of pounding on side shift. I would still like a turbo feature however, maybe your turbo meter builds up for not touching walls or something like that, reward good driving with more turbo.

[terra-wrists]

thats actually a good option.

though I suspect I will still play hd fury for the br fun.

[Colin Berry]

If I was making another actual wipeout game, I would take barrel rolls out. I had a couple of ideas for mechanics to try that would come in, instead, not direct replacements, just nuanced behaviour.

Given formula fusion is not a wipeout game, I wouldnt imagine they would be included. I am sure they have their own take on things and gameplay mechanics

*Jabberjaw - additional turbo or speed for not clipping walls, was something we played around with in a prototype, alas that 'version' of WO was ditched before it began. But it was a concept that was interesting.

[blackwiggle]

The fact that BR's in WO are tied to a quick maneuvering of the same controls that are used for steering is now / and always has been, the major sticking point.
Some people can do it easily, others, inconsistently at best .
But either way, just the process of doing one will alter your racing line because of this steering tie-in.

I suppose [guessing here] that the original idea was sort of a 'Spitfire Victory Roll' move, that once successfully performed would give you a speed boost on landing.

I would prefer that if BR's were to be kept, that they need a different, "None Steering Effecting" control input.
And one that can be performed by all equally, via rapid control input, rather than the hit or miss controls ATM

[Temet]

It's not a WipEout game... and I'm a BR-hater...
I really prefer a speed game that focuses on the racing line and not on acrobatics!

[vincoof]

I would still like a turbo feature however, maybe your turbo meter builds up for not touching walls or something like that, reward good driving with more turbo.That system was implemented within WO2097/WOXL, wasn’t it? And maybe in a few other WOs (but can’t tell the exact list).

[JABBERJAW]

Not really, no. In wo3 however, your turbo was connected to your energy bar, so hitting walls took away turbo ability, but scraping walls did not. Colin, that would have been interesting to see, people having to stay completely off the wall to build up turbo. I would have to reinvent how I played those first four games if this was in those, as I scrape a lot on inside turns without losing speed. Wopure would have been a natural fit though as scraping always slows you down to some degree depending on how hard you are hitting.

[vincoof]

Hmm that’s weird. I was convinced that you raced over Talon’s Reach (1st track of WO2097/XL) with Piranha extremely fast thanks to the never-ending speed that was implemented in the game. Man, you’ve just shattered the Myth of Sartwell :(

[JABBERJAW]

Ha! :). Actually, I am .1 behind Arnaud's record on that one. He had a 1:14.6, and I had a 1:14.7. However, I discovered codes for every ship in the game, and was able to change the handling and speed. I was able to do a 56.9 with a feisar. Here is the link. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBoKqnCPOkk Arnaud helped me test a new set of stats for all the ships to make a really hard challenge. I should actually get back into making that this year, as it was coming out quite good.

You could also be thinking about the time I figured out how to make autopilot go 2500 kph, and was doing 4.3 second laps on Talon's Reach

[vincoof]

OK, looks like I was mistaken. I read the never-ending speed thing such a long time ago (I think wipeoutzone was still hosted on ezboard) that maybe I remember it wrong or I just read it wrong. It could have been a wish rather than a fact. It would still be a good idea for FF, though :)

PS. nice vid ;) I can’t remember how well I was performing on Talon’s Reach but I know I was far behind Arnaud and you. Tons of memory on this game. I wish FF will be as memorable as WO2097.

[JABBERJAW]

Sorry, I took this thread away from the topic, back to barrel rolls

[Sausehuhn]

In wo3 however, your turbo was connected to your energy bar, so hitting walls took away turbo ability, but scraping walls did not.

Even more some, wasn’t there some kind of (rather uncontrollable) speed boost in WO3 (SE?) when scraping walls? On another note, in WOHD’s zone mode your energy bar refilled for not hitting walls for certain times. This was even the case with WOPure, if I remember correctly.

To sum it up: No barrel rolls please ;)

[terra-wrists]

Sorry, I took this thread away from the topic, back to barrel rolls

No man, that was cool :)

[vincoof]

Sorry, I took this thread away from the topic, back to barrel rolls
First, if there was someone to blame it would be me ;) But I wouldn’t say it’s off-topic anyway. I think everyone who enjoyed barrel rolls (incl. the OP imho) enjoyed the fact that you could get a speed boost under certain circumstances decided by the player (as opposed to Turbo boosts which mostly require you to have luck with pads). In this sense I think you’re totally on-topic.

[Ace3000]

Not really, no. In wo3 however, your turbo was connected to your energy bar, so hitting walls took away turbo ability, but scraping walls did not.

I've been playing WipEout 3: SE for a while, and there's a funny physics quirk that when you scrape the wall, it speeds you up so long as you're scraping the wall.

[blackwiggle]

Same thing with WO 2097

[JABBERJAW]

Speed scraping in Wipeout 3 happens more often than woxl, woxl is more seamless. Different versions of wo3 do it differently, and there are certain spots where it happens, it is not everywhere. Confused yet? :)

[possesed13]

If the FF has the depth of difficulty like WO HD I don't mind not having BR's. I'm a fan oF WO HD because it has a very nice balance between knowing the game the tracks the lines and again reinventing the game by mastering the BR. It's a whole new game. It's also a skill which means that not everybody can perform the same way... I don't mind that, it's always a challenge to go faster and BR's make it happen. They give room for much improvement and adaptation which makes the game very competitive and long lasting!

I'd say if I don't have BR's i would like a very crazy physics pallet that let's you evolve in so that the boundaries of how fast you can go and how hard it is to do it will be vast and infinite. Not just upgrades or knowing the track! Something that requires a skill development (such as BR's) to give that extra dimension to the game!
And yes not everybody can be very good at WO. But you can try:twisted
Otherwise there are plenty of racing games that can offer you a nice but static racing experience with nice and down to earth physics! WO is great because it's beyond that.

I expect FF to be a very difficult game, I really do! With BR's or not but damn difficult, detailed and unforgiving!:rock:rock:rock
...but rewarding you with that great chill when you smooth things up and dive in the track!:nod
And wishing to have our fetish game for the next decade online!
Cheers!:beer:beer

[purist284]

I too had mixed emotions about the prospect of there being no barrel rolls. After much consideration, I've decided they just don't feel... canonical to me, though, and they never will. As much as I got used to them, I'm actually looking forward to returning to the old WipEout/XL/3 style of play - and if there's no side shift, for that matter... all the better. I was never a fan of side-shift. In any event, a number of posters have pointed out that this is not a WipEout game, strictly speaking. All I hope is that this does not mean that the game engine will be so different as to be unrecognizable - what I mean is I hope the airbrakes still work the same (as yaw). This was one of the original wipeout's distinguishing features back in the day, and the reason I was surprised when they incorporated the side-shift (which is from F-Zero).

[Hybrid Divide]

If I remember right, barrel rolls were put into place when everyone realized that the PSP would only have one set of shoulder buttons, which nixed the idea of reviving Wip3out's HyperThrust System.

Barrel rolls were what the devs came up with a replacement.

[mannjon]

For what it is worth, I personally like the idea of rewarding riskier moves. If it isn't barrel rolls, there needs to be some other mechanism in place to reward skilled pilots for making the extra effort. Having perfect racing lines isn't enough for me, and I think that rewarding players simply for having perfect laps isn't enough. Hyperthrust is ok with me because you get a boost at the expense of ship energy.

While not having what some would consider an "unfair advantage" by being a barrel roll master might appeal to casual gamers, it certainly doesn't have the same appeal to seasoned players. Take Mariokart as an example... It doesn't matter how far you are in first place, you can lose it all in an instant at the last second with the cheap-a$$ blue turtle shell. Being good at the game doesn't matter as much if there is a game breaking weapon that essentially puts everyone on equal terms. There needs to be some type of risk vs reward mechanism to keep Wipeout competitive whether it is a hyperthrust or barrel roll. I personally prefer the roll because it requires skill to use as opposed to just being a risky decision.

[terra-wrists]

How about an online algo which matches players of similar skillsets up against eachother instead of a random room to jump in ???

barrels rolls or no, that is what we NEED.

As for me, I lurve dem Beeyaaarrrrz. N I lurve me Piranhaz. Me care not whatya-flying, My Fishy always do its dizzy.

[mannjon]

^^ was exactly what I was thinking.

Maybe make it a race option you can set at the lobby. Like check a box for "pilot matching." To that effect, I think an accurate way to be able to ascertain a pilot's skill might be an overall average of race times through various events, or at the very least use completion rate as a method. Although the platinum trophy was particularly difficult to get (and I have 9 now on different accounts) it was still a challenge the first time. There is a huge difference between pilots that earned it and those that have not. If it was an option to enable/disable, it would allow someone to play with anyone of any skill if online participation was scarce at the moment while at the same time would allow for more competitive matchups when there was a larger online presence.

Also, the ranking system is horribly broken as is. I would hate to see the current ranking system dictate what accounted for "skill." I also have respect to novice pilots that want to take on seasoned veterans, so I think that if you wanted to you could join a game out of you abilities that should be allowed, but maybe have a warning pop up instead. There really isn't a perfect solution, but pilot matching is something I'm on board with.

I'd rather see them get rid of Eliminator over barrel rolls any day.

[JFthebestJan]

@ terra & mannjon: pilot matching system won't work, because of the simple fact that not enough players will be present. look at 2048 and its matchmaking system, it's bullshit at best. if they simply copy the online system of wipeout HD, it would be the best option to go with. don't change a winning team, said some very smart person.

btt: i love barrel rolls (obviously), no BRs = no purchase for me. bigsnake made a very promising approach in his Ballistic NG game. he added Hyperthrust from W3, added BRs from WHD & added Turbo from the whole series. it works really well so far. my2cents

[mannjon]

Oh JF you are the best! Your name says it all. After I made that post, I cracked out on WOHD and came to the same conclusion: I can't live without my BR's. It serves as a mechanism to separate different tiers of pilots. There just isn't another way to make it "fair" for the pilots that aren't on the same level. You either make things unfair to veterans by taking away barrel rolls or make it unfair to new pilots by having that gap in experience. New pilots can always get better, and they only get better by racing better pilots, so ultimately I would have to say it is more fair to keep those elements in the game than to take them away.

Now the hyperthrust is an interesting gamble I would like to see in addition to barrel rolls. You can thrust to get away from a missile, or chose to barrel roll later. It adds a bit of strategic defensive play to the mix that would make for more of a technical approach to racing.

[terra-wrists]

You may be right there JF, I only sampled 2048 when I met Mdhay (remember him?) last month for an hour. I didn't like the vita controls, couldn't get used to it but it looked amazing. I didn't play online coz we were sat in a subway sandwich shop lol. Cool guy is our mdhay. legend.

I didn't know 2048 had a pilot matching system to be honest. And yeah you may be right, the game is kinda for die hard fans of the franchise.

Mannjon, the ultimate mix of BR X Hyperthrust X turbo sound interesting AND complicated, I believe I could like it very much. So sad to see no BR's in Formula Fusion, but I guess the devs are trying to keep the game as realistic as it can be, simulator like...

...speaking of which, I now have a beasty computer.

i7 4790k processor 4Gh.z - with an after market processor cooler (it's sick)
32 GB DDR3 ram
NVidia GE Force GTX970 GFX card
500 GB samsung solid state HDD + 2TB seagate

running win7 ultimate edition :) makes use of all the ram. Windows index of 7.8 out of 7.9.

So yeah, I'll be getting FF for it, it will run like a dream :)

EXCITED!!!

[JFthebestJan]

whoa, what's the price of such a beasty machine? 32gb ram sounds really fast. i have a 1gb ram machine from04 (was the fastest notebook back in the days, 1400euros). nowadays it's barely fast enough to run my internet browser :D
i really need a quantum computer, or at least lightspeed computer with anti matter battery energy supply;)

[mannjon]

I are jealous to say the least. I've got a Windows 7 laptop dual core processor that when I fun firefox can occupy almost 75% of a core. I can't even play Dirt 2 on it with maximum settings. I'd like to barrel roll my computer into the trash for a new one. Ok, not really, but to keep with the thread ^_^

[terra-wrists]

Damn the kickstarter window closed :( feck.

cost of PC: approx £1500 (british pounds)

I guess i'll just have to wait til official release... I really wanted a custom craft dammit. Missed oppo there. My shortsightedness, got me shot in the foot, with my own gun.

I'm well sore there will be no BR's. But not as sore as seeing all the ships look exactly the same :( some variety would be nice.

[stinkleroy]

I'm happy about no BR's and I'm a seasoned player ;)

As for the pilot matchmaking system online, I do believe R8 suggested that there would be different leagues available to play in online. I guess that's just related to speed class but it would be cool if you had to advance to those ranks and not just jump in to the fastest online league. I hope they implement something like that.

[mannjon]

Aww no rolls stinkleroy? I thought you like the rolls!

If there was a matchup system however I think it would placate a lot of the problems beginner pilots had. 100% of the negative reviews about HD involved the "steep learning curve." I personally liked Venom and Flash more than Rapier and Phantom because you had to be way more technical with lines and barrel rolls. The problem for me is that I feel bad when I'm in a Venom lobby, and a new pilot joins expecting an easier race because of the speed class and finds the competition more challenging than they expected. Phantom as one might expect, is typically for more seasoned players and I think most newer pilots just come to interpret Phantom as just that. To me personally, the speed classes have always represented different play styles as opposed to different levels of difficulty.

Ideally, you could compete in any speed class with pilots similar in skill. That is to say that the difficulty shouldn't be weighted by class, rather the competition itself. I'd like to see a system where new pilots could compete with other new pilots on Phantom, and elite pilots could compete with other elite pilots on Venom. The whole construct of difficulty is objective, and as such I definitely think that some sort of balance would help to attract new pilots.

[vincoof]

I personally liked Venom and Flash more than Rapier and Phantom because you had to be way more technical with lines and barrel rolls.
What do you mean by “way more technical”? You can as well be technical with barrel rolls (or other things) in Rapier and Phantom, and it probably requires to be even more technical, isn’t it?


I'd like to see a system where new pilots could compete with other new pilots on Phantom, and elite pilots could compete with other elite pilots on Venom. The whole construct of difficulty is objective, and as such I definitely think that some sort of balance would help to attract new pilots.
I agree with the point that elite pilots can be seen in Venom just as much as in Phantom. However, this is a bit contradictory with your suggestion to attract new pilots. Because if “elite” pilots do their best in Venom, there’s no way a beginner pilot can catch up without saying to himself that the records look unreachable.

[stinkleroy]

Nope I'm a BR hater mannjon, only do them to keep up with the competition but it breaks my thumb and ruins my line on far too many occasions ;)

I agree with both of the above posts to some extent, but I'm really hoping that FF doesn't pander to new players in an effort to become a popular franchise. I love how hard Wipeout games are and that in itself is the essence of the game and why it feels so good when you finally nail every corner on that evil track. I understand games have to make revenue but too many games bow to the corporate gods these days and it makes me really sad. Sorry a bit off topic.

[terra-wrists]

What do you mean by “way more technical”? You can as well be technical with barrel rolls (or other things) in Rapier and Phantom, and it probably requires to be even more technical, isn’t it?

Nope... Yeldar proved that in phantom, BR's don't take precedence, lines do.

In venom and flash - good luck with that method - you NEED to be a BR ace to get those top times.



I agree with the point that elite pilots can be seen in Venom just as much as in Phantom. However, this is a bit contradictory with your suggestion to attract new pilots. Because if “elite” pilots do their best in Venom, there’s no way a beginner pilot can catch up without saying to himself that the records look unreachable.

Some Phantom pilots can't handle venom and flash. It's too "tricky" for them, and they complain of "weps" damage waaay too much.

Point I'm making is that venom and flash require different disciplines and anticipations to phantom speed.

I agree with mannjon, and I prefer the trickier speed classes, they keep things really interesting - if - there's good competition around.

[mannjon]

Well Vincoof, that was kind of my point. The balancing method would need to be independent of speed classes. True enough that in a full venom lobby with myself, terra-wrists, and 6 other beginner pilots, I'm fairly certain who will place 3-8 every time. I'm like Terra in that I personally prefer an aerial acrobatic showdown on Flash or Venom as opposed to a high speed line battle. So the balancing should be based on pilot ability rather than speed class.

Truth be told, if a record seems unreachable from a new pilot's perspective, that isn't balance at all. It may serve as a mark to determine one's growth though. I can even admit that when I first started playing, I thought those times were a bit unrealistic myself. But I got better. Fast too, because I had a time to beat.

If there was a system that were to match players based on average time increments for tracks, I think that would be a good starting point. Essentially, you are a new pilot, you start out in an entry league. Then, if you get a top 20 time for a track, you would jump to the advanced league. There would be some obvious problems, and this system would require some thought, but the only real way to determine one's relative skill at multiplayer is to compare to other players' skills as well. But the basic idea is that you would be ranked on your racing ability instead of speed class (which we can agree is not really a distinction of difficulty rather a difference in play style).

Maybe there is an ability to record and update ghosts at break points. Or maybe the devs can preprogram vs races in the game that "unlock" certain racing classes. Remember Beat Zico? There are only a handful of pilots that have done this. The ones that have definitely stand out above the rest. However, to get into the top 100 records for Anulpha Pass, there are only an elite few which are on another level altogether (it personally took me over 100 laps to get into the top 50, and I can tell when pilots have similar skills/devotion).

So maybe there is a time limit that if you beat in certain skill brackets. You are allowed to compete in rookie online races from the start, novice online races later (this will be relatively easy about on par with a "skilled" skill level), then maybe an intermediate level (about on par with the "elite" difficulty), and advanced skill level (beat Zico difficulty), and Elite which would be for those that place within the top 500-1000 or so, or beat/tie with a certain time.

I realize that this wouldn't be an ideal balance, but I think it would help. At anytime you could chose to play outside of your league up to a certain difficulty level (say advanced), but a warning should pop up to let you know ahead of time for potential ownage. Also I think that any players on a more advanced level should be allowed to join a game on a lower level by invitation from the host only (essentially no elite players should terrorize new players without specific invitation to do so) or with a handicap (like they start out in last, or have reduced ship energy) basically to even the odds.

As an alternative method to the one above, you could easily make a couple of new race options, like having a difficulty range. So for example you could have a Venom race, and set the online difficulty to intermediate-advanced, or anyone welcome that would allow newer pilots to train against the pros. Or similarly, you could have a Phantom race that limits the difficulty to rookies only to get used to online play at a faster speed without the brutal competition typically at that level.

[terra-wrists]

You know on second thoughts, I think the devs on FF have made the right choice for not including BR's.

I'm such a BR junkie, but can learn to live without so long as the game provides ample opportunities to really take the learning curve to new heights. I'd like to see how they manage that - i'm sure they got a few tricks up their sleeves.

But those ships though - will they all look the same? As in formula1? that's a down for me. I want ships of different shapes on the same circuit, I'd choose that over BR's.

Regarding pilot skill matching, those are some good options mannjon, but they'd only really be realistic if the game has a larger following than the current wipEouts have. We're a small enough community and if that remains the case with FF, then pilot matching will only make it harder to get a game online.

thoughts?

[mannjon]

Well I agree that WO has a small but loyal fanbase. The idea with incorporating a matching system might help to attract more pilots.

Assuming that there are the types of matching in place that I suggested, my assumption is that there would be more pilots available to make the system work. But realistically speaking, it would be prudent to have some mechanism in place for when there aren't that many pilots online. You might could have a list of sorts that would show pilot skill levels from some matching screen where you could chose to play different difficulty leagues based on few online pilots. For that reason, it might be a good idea to also include a free lobby where there are no restrictions in the event that no one is online.

I guess the bottom line is that the matching should be marketed as a feature to attract new pilots, but not be the main mechanism for online play. I don't want the community to die out, but at the same time I do want to maintain a level of competitive play so it becomes a catch 22. There really isn't a perfect option because quite simply put, I fear futuristic racing as a genre is a dying breed. Unfortunately, the trend in games for the PS3, XBox 360, and even Wii U has been geared more for casual gamers. The thought processes from developers is that they can make more money off of games like Call of Duty (the epitome of modern gaming as far as I'm concerned) that caters to casual gamers and awards them meaningless trophies. That being said however, the market has begun to shift back towards consoles as many casual games are now being played on phones and tablets. Although we haven't really seen that trend much in XBox1 and PS4 yet, there are still some indications that the market is shifting back to a far less casual market.

Bluntly put, many casual gamers find solace in Indie games in this current market which is posing some serious competition to the mainstream console market. Should the trend continue, I don't doubt the market will gradually shift back to less casual friendly gaming in the near future which will serve to separate the gap between the hardcore crowd vs the casual gamer market. You simply can't ignore the demand for more in depth gaming once the casual gamers stops buying $400 dollar systems to play indie games for 0.99 cents. At that point, I suspect that the older generation of gamers will stay true to their roots and continue to pay 59.99 for games with more in depth content.

The problem is that developers currently have little incentive to create higher budget games that have higher production costs when they can make money off of cheaper production games. Some developers will make a choice to produce cheaper games, while others will make the higher budget titles. I for one will stop buying next gen systems if the indie trend continues, and I'm not alone either. I HATE indie games, because back when I played the NES and SNES, ALL the games were, by today's standard, indie games. Modern indie games seem to follow a trend of having sub par graphics and reused paradigms as the focus of a game as though they forgot all about earlier systems. One example is the FFVII re-release. There is still enough of a market to warrant Enix to produce the remake. People will gladly pay the money because the market is still there. I would like to think Wipeout as a series would be the same way.

[stinkleroy]

Nope... Yeldar proved that in phantom, BR's don't take precedence, lines do.

Not entirely true. I suffer enormously in those faster speed classes from not doing certain BR's in certain places. Lines and BR's are very important in phantom, Yeld mastered that ;)

[mannjon]

Yeah, if you have noticed his lines for his videos, you'll notice one thing in particular that he excels at is knowing WHICH barrel rolls to land. That is my primary problem when going from Flash to Phantom. On Flash, I land every one I can because there is usually enough distance to get the full effect of the boost and there is little reason not to. In Phantom however, there are so many spots where you would have to brake immediately after the roll in which case having a different racing line without rolling is actually faster. You also are more likely to take more damage for wall swipes. In addition, that extra lap really makes a difference in tight races and ship energy management is more of a concern.

For me the trick is that balance. In general though, I've found my Time Trial laps are much faster when I focus more on lines than barrel rolls. But Yeldar is Yeldar afterall, and I don't doubt he could probably beat me without using them at all just sticking to his lines. Thus is not the case with all Phantom pilots. But as a general statement, Barrel rolls don't play into Phantom races nearly as much since the top speeds are higher. On Flash it is a significant boost from rolls, whereas Phantom the boost (though still considerable) is not quite as gamechanging. I lose races on Phantom because of lines, I lose races on Flash because of failed rolls.

[stinkleroy]

I lose phantom races from not doing enough rolls, eric is always telling me "roll, damn it roll" ;)

I always thought I had good lines but maybe not, it's not good enough to win me a race ha!

I see your meaning that BR's are more important in Flash and Venom, there's a lot more speed to gain. I just wanted to note that they do make a big difference in rapier and phantom too :)

[terra-wrists]

Our thumbs - will always be problematic for us Kat :D All I can say is, "roll another one, just like the other one" :D that goes for both, wipeout and the uh, you know, herbal medications :D :)

[DIXI200]

I met "barrel roll" only WO hd, but now I can not do without :g.. but I managed to win my "ghost rolling" only driving straight lines, because rolling and banging .. I saw the video of "Venom "and" Flash "barrel impressive, but the first thing is to learn to drive, I loved before the Barrel Rolls .. now I'm back on my feet.:) One question.. my eyes have looked good ?, I saw in the race "AI" make Barrel Rolls?

[JFthebestJan]

yes AI does BRs, but it's very rare. it's even possible to force the autopilot doing BRs. but that is a very hard to do thingy ;)

[mannjon]

No doubt that rolls are still important in Rapier and Phantom. I totally agree with that. It's just not as bad if you miss one on higher speeds as is with lower speeds.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? YOU CAN FORCE AUTOPILOT TO ROLL? This is the first new thing I've learned in 5 years of HD. I've seen AI roll on Elite difficulty a few times (not that it matters at all) but never have I been able to roll while under the influence of autopilot -though I only use them by accident thinking they are a turbo so it doesn't come up much.

[vincoof]

I’m not sure there is a link between BR and the strategic decision from R8 Games to appeal casual gamers (correct me if I’m wrong but that’s what I deduced from the recent discussion). BR could be removed because the devs didn’t like the input (left-right-left) or didn’t think the gameplay was interesting or simply because it didn’t fit the FF universe amongst many other reasons that I’m too lazy to tell (and that you’d be too bored to read anyway).

There’s one thing I’m sure, though: BR is one of the very few controversial elements from W’O” when I talk with my friends. We all agree we love the classes (Venom, Rapier, etc.), the weapons, the ship diversity, the airbrakes, and so on, but Barrel Rolls divide pilots. I think Wipe’Out” was better without them but I totally respect players who enjoy having them.

[fdfxd]

If they're not going to get BRs then they should get back the Hyperthrust system

[terra-wrists]

No doubt that rolls are still important in Rapier and Phantom. I totally agree with that. It's just not as bad if you miss one on higher speeds as is with lower speeds.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???? YOU CAN FORCE AUTOPILOT TO ROLL? This is the first new thing I've learned in 5 years of HD. I've seen AI roll on Elite difficulty a few times (not that it matters at all) but never have I been able to roll while under the influence of autopilot -though I only use them by accident thinking they are a turbo so it doesn't come up much.

I've done this by inputting BR LRL or RLR and using autopilot at the same time, the BR is pulled off successfully then autopilot takes over, but slows down a little which is pants.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

I actually recently had an idea that would reward perfect laps with improved speed; technically though, it would be more similar to Perfect Zones:

For every ten seconds that you are in constant motion (and not going in the wrong direction) without taking damage from a wall or falling off the track will increase your top speed slightly. Getting hit by weapons doesn't count, because there isn't anything you can really do about that... Though your top speed would reset if at any point you hit the wall or complete an imperfect lap.