New World Records Not Possible?

[mannjon]

Just a quick question for those that have been playing for a while. I've noticed lately that the top ten or so records were all made back in 2009 and 2010. Normally this wouldn't be that significant, but I started looking into it and decided to test a theory I have. I chose Talon's Junction Reverse (easy track to get a fast time for due to the limited Barrel Roll opportunities). I raced long enough until I got into the top 30 on Venom (seeing as how Venom is easier to do that with). It took a while, but I got to the point where I was getting all perfect laps, perfect racing line, etc, etc.

So my question is this: Did the upgrade patch really effect the slow down time for airbraking that much? I've heard others that claim that the patch has effected the lap record times and that certain records are no longer achievable due to the new physics. Can anyone confirm or disprove this? It would be nice to know if breaking new world records was possible or not. Thanks!

[JFthebestJan]

the answer is yes and no! it's not possible to get new WRs on most tracks with the newest patch, but there's @ least 1 track where it's still possible...
SYNCOPIA ;)

[xI-eI2aiiZZa-Ix]

the answer is yes and no! it's not possible to get new WRs on most tracks with the newest patch, but there's @ least 1 track where it's still possible...
SYNCOPIA ;)

Yes, it is true and yes, there arent many recordsbleft to be beaten with v2.51. Actually no record to be honest. Besides syncopia of course. It is the only record which is made with v 2.51

[kleidoscopik_1er]

@mannjon: I get some top ten and top five for SL and TT, all done this year on v2.51 ;)
Also some wrs on single races and multiplayer races. This is where there is still some wrs possibilities, but not that much imo.
Maybe more than i think if playing on rapier or phantom, i don't really checked the possibilities on those speed class.

And yes about syncopia, but getting the glitch is really boring. There is only JFthebestJan who had enough patience to play lots of syncopia :) .

[terra-wrists]

I got two top 5 times a few weeks ago in flash online. Metropia fwd and modesto fwd. They shoe too. So its not true.

I play as skruffem now.

[mannjon]

@ skruffem, Hey there I'm mannjon, I've raced you a few times, and there's no doubt that you could definitely get some top 5 records.

I was mainly talking about the SL and TT modes. I think that single and online races are still possible mainly because of the ability to get the extra turbo/boost/roll opportunities.

Have you had any luck getting new records in SL or TT modes?

[yeldar2097]

SL/TT it's possible to improve on PBs, but getting a WR is more or less impossible. It may have been possible on Sebenco venom TT since xI-eI2aiiZZa-Ix used a new technique to destroy the old TT, so with this technique the old record may have been beatable with 2.51, but since the new record is with an offline pre 2.51 PS3, that is no longer possible.

The ONLY TT now possible to beat with 2.51 (perhaps) at Phantom speed is Vineta K Reverse, and that's only because nobody has made an effort to get a good time on that track yet. Somehow it was forgotten. Pre 2.51 the record should be 1.31.xx, post 2.51 probably 1.32.5x, so it is possible.

I don't know about the other speed classes, but at Phantom speed the difference even with (close to) ideal lines, the difference is about 0.2s per lap versus pre 2.51 (depending on track and ship because all balance is ruined), where you would have to make less effort to achieve the same result.

The difference is profound, and it has completely ruined the dynamic of the game. Every ship has been affected in a different and negative way depending on their characteristics/nuances, every corner must be relearned relative to this. The game feels and is much slower and is no longer balanced. The game is ruined, period.

[xI-eI2aiiZZa-Ix]

Hm, but when you're talking about sebenco venom one can also name sebenco flash tt. On that tspeed classthe new technique also hasnt been used. And the actual time is full of mistakes. When you do it correctly very well you can gain almost 2s due to two awful laps. And that without the new technique. So with the knowledge of the new technique i would say 3s to gain.
And that should be enough time for v2.51 player.
Actually i wanted to improve the flash tt by using the new technique today but i think i sholud give you guys the chance to do it. Therefor i'll probably do a venom video using the equal technique for showing you.

[Mietepiet]

this is some bad news, since sl/tt is the mode i like the most.
do any of you have a link to info on the updates?

@Yeldar: I saw you updated a lot of phatom tt times last month. did you go pre v2.51 to realize this?
and is going back to pre v2.51 considered as cheating?

[mannjon]

@ xi_eI2aiiZZa_xi, I appreciate the opportunity!!! I had an idea to use a new spot with the turbo that I haven't previously seen (basically it would add an additional BR that isn't at the start, or over the large hill before the downhill straight, or towards the end right before the last chicane turn to the finish line). I'm not sure that is would really be all the faster in a perfect lap though. Problem for me is that I miss too many other rolls throughout the rest of the track to be consistent. I'd be interested to know what new method you were talking about. Let me know if you post a video!

[yeldar2097]

this is some bad news, since sl/tt is the mode i like the most.
do any of you have a link to info on the updates?

@Yeldar: I saw you updated a lot of phatom tt times last month. did you go pre v2.51 to realize this?
and is going back to pre v2.51 considered as cheating?

The info on the update does not exist. They said they fixed the airbrake exploit (which was completely unnecessary but they wanted to look like they were doing something productive because they couldn't be bothered to listen to all the other issues). They didnt explain how, it was left to the veteran pilots to realise what they had done. I did a lot of analysis into the new handling dynamics of the game, but it was hard for me to be motivated to explain it all over and over again because I'm basically explaining every reason why I hate the game now, and I'm not interested in that.

More or less every WR in the game was done before 2.51 (apart from zone because they ruined that too), so I wouldn't consider it cheating. For my part, I do not enjoy playing 2.51. It makes me angry, and sad, and the feel of the game is lost. It's just not fun. If people have a problem with it, I will remove my times. I race to push my limits and the limits of the game, if other people can benefit and have an improved experience from what I am able to share, if not, I'm not fussed. I do it for myself mostly. In my opinion the whole ranking site should be reset from zero to accommodate 2.51, but that would mean losing records from old legends who don't play any more, which would be a shame, so we just deal with the situation as it is.

If you want to play an online racer, you play 2.51
If you want to play WipEout HD, you play offline under a previous patch.

[terra-wrists]

@ skruffem, Hey there I'm mannjon, I've raced you a few times, and there's no doubt that you could definitely get some top 5 records.

I was mainly talking about the SL and TT modes. I think that single and online races are still possible mainly because of the ability to get the extra turbo/boost/roll opportunities.

Have you had any luck getting new records in SL or TT modes?

Hi nice to meet you also.

I don't play SL and TT really but I have done the campaign twice under skruffem account. I lost my data once. Funny thing is I still broke my pb's and got some decent times and I wasn't even trying.

I've noticed that since 2.51 it's easier to br... even with my busted controller. So though the racing physics may have changed a little, I believe it is still possible to get records in the lower speeds. I can't speak for phantom speed because I hardly race that speed.

For me the fun is in racing acrobats like scar and others in flash... things are pretty difficult in the slower speeds. Phantom pilots struggle in those speeds. And I struggle in phantom.

Unless you are Yeldar or kpop ofcourse :)

[mannjon]

@ yeldar2097, I think pre 2.51 pilots have earned their top records. I think it would be an injustice to scrap all the times personally and start over from scratch. I guess my whole point for posting was that I consider myself a pretty capable pilot. On certain tracks I will never get a top record and I know that. But it was frustrating to have a perfect TT run with all the tricky rolls, perfect laps, all speed pads, and still come up seconds short of the top records. I kept trying to figure out what others were doing that I hadn't figured out (like maybe I was missing a barrel roll here or there).

A good example is Talon's Junction FWD and REV. Obviously for the REV, there is the one barrel roll. For the FWD, there are 2 possible each lap (one after the first mag strip, and then the second with a boost over the chicane series immediately after).

It frustrated me to no end not knowing what I was doing wrong! But now that I know that the physics has made a difference, I'm ok with the times I have! I just wish I had been around in the earlier days (I started in 2012 after having taken a break from the series due to the lack of a PS3 until then).

Glad to see yeldar is back on the circuit some!

[yeldar2097]

The spread of times with different teams is much broader with 2.51, in actual fact the current handling is a closer representation of what the differences between different ships should be, what they feel like with all hidden parameters/stats taken into account. Pre 2.51 you could more or less achieve the same time on any track with any ship, now not so much. Even so, I would say take 0.2s from each lap and you have a rough indication of where you would be if you raced on a pre 2.51 patch.

FYI at Phantom Talon's is opposite: 2BRs on TJ Rev, one BR on TJ F :)

I'm not really back into it, just a couple of test runs here and there for posterity's sake. Aside from that I'm a little less at pains to talk about the game, it's been a year since SL ruined my favourite game ever (for no good reason whatsoever), time to get over it. Can probably tell I'm not quite there yet. I will never forgive or forget what they did,'but at least I can talk pre 2.51 techniques and analysis now that a few more people are playing under the old patch.

[Mietepiet]

By no means i meant they should scrape those holy records off the tables. I believe in fair play, and if the old times are all pre-2.51, I don't consider it cheating if we go pre-2.51. I was just checking, before I'll go through all that fuzz ;)

Now it makes sense that I was struggeling with old ghosts even when I added an extra br into the lap :brickwall

[mannjon]

At least there is wipeoutrankings.com!

Update: I did get a top 5 venom time (according to the site) today on multiplayer race on TJ rev today. It was with 4 turbos and 4 BRs though (although I did have a rough landing on the last one). I think with 5 turbos, I could have maybe got top 3 (though 1.44.74 will be hard to beat). Long story short, it seems multiplayer races time are still possible to break to some extent. The only other top 20 time that was after 2011 is Scar's, so it does look like pre 2.51 was somewhat easier to achieve.

[kleidoscopik_1er]

@yeldar2097 & xI-eI2aiiZZa-Ix : For sebenco, if you are speaking about what xI-eI2aiiZZa-Ix is doing in his SL venom vid, there is nothing new. Just saying :) .


@mannjon said: " The only other top 20 time that was after 2011 is Scar's"


Not at all, some other players like onlykpop or vlhad13 did some too.
Me too like i said first page. You should read peoples answering your thread xd .
Also, in case you didn't realized it, it's been months now that scar is playing pre-patch for SL and TT . ;)

[mannjon]

I read it. I specifically meant for TJ Reverse on Venom, but I do get your point, and I certainly didn't mean to discredit anyone or leave anyone out!

It just looks as though lately there hasn't been much of a change to the WR times (and I'm solely going off of the Wipeoutrankings.com site here). I started playing in 2012, so all of my knowledge and know how are from what appears to be after the 2.51 patch. I haven't played many of the high ranked leaderboard scored players (I've played you, Scarfroggers, TH4YA1, and Mietepiet, Apple-Guy-Cipher, lovelylilith and a few others), so I'm not familiar with a lot of the pilots with the legacy records. I did not notice that Scar was playing the pre-patch on SL and TT though. Guess he got bored with beating me by 5 or 6 seconds every race and went back to SL and TT ^_^

Kind of makes me want to use a new account and see what all these changes were about for myself. Do you know if there is a way to use ghosts if I were to do that?

[yeldar2097]

Ghosts remain in tact as far as I'm aware, however it serves little purpose since you can't really see where you're losing time. The fact is, you go slower round corners, even with the same lines, sideshifts, inertia from BRs or whatever it may be.
The most tangible difference is in the way the game feels at Phantom speed. Other classes aren't so acutely affected since Phantom involves mostly airbrakes, whereas the other classes are more sideshift based. There's still a big difference in overall speed but to really feel the difference that's the way I see it.

Re sebenco: New as in newly applied/refined by someone else. I don't claim any techniques in this game, I just copy, analyse and refine. I was even (jokingly) known as "L'espion Hollandais" (the dutch spy). That's why I constantly make the distinction between my acquired skill through thought process and analysis, and the natural skill of the true legendary pilots I have known and consider them superior. If I can share a technique or explain something to someone and somebody watches it and it's new to them, great. I don't give a **** who finds it first. If someone taught it to me, I will give them credit because some people get really shitty about it. I care more about going as quickly as possible round the track and picking apart my runs and the runs to the smallest detail to see how things can be improved, doesn't matter if it's me or someone trying to break into the top 500. I know the reason why a lot of people think I'm an asshole is because even with a WR I say there can be much improvement. Something about people's ego makes that an issue. Not as much anymore but certainly in the past. But it's true and always will be, there's no point pretending you've reached the ultimate goal when you haven't. That's not the point. The only goal is to beat your time. Once you do that, the goal is the new time. I find it so exciting to know a time could be even faster, that's the thrill that made me fall in love with the game. Never really understood why that made people so angry to be honest. Anyway back on topic...

It's pretty simple, 95% of the WRs are pre 2.51.
Zone mode, and certain MP races below Phantom are the exception.
If you want a rough idea of how your speed would be in pre 2.51, take away 0.2s per lap as a rough estimate for all classes. I analysed every corner of every track in every class under the old and new patches but I lost the data on my old PC, but this is a close enough guess based on what I remember. You could always try for yourself but if like me you have a prehistoric internet connection it's not really practical.

[kleidoscopik_1er]

@mannjon said: "I read it. I specifically meant for TJ Reverse on Venom."

Oh, sorry dude. I misunderstood you. I should work on my english i guess :) .
I play since 2012 too. Started on 1st december 2012, so playing since 1 year and a v2.51 player too ;) . I just "started" and tried to do some records on pre-patch since 2 days .

No need to get a new account. You can downgrade your version and give it a try. It will only change the game version, your unlocks etc will still be there, and so your ghosts.


Edit: @yeldar2097: lol what a speach. I was just thinking that you weren't aware of it before so it was just to let you two know, no offense ;)

[mannjon]

Today was a GREAT (lucky) day for new records. So I'm still kind of pumped up about that so I've forgot how to type/communicate effectively! I played a handful of races on Venom (no one seems to want to play at Venom anymore. I LOVE Venom almost as much as I love Rapier). I got a the top 5 as previously stated, AND a top 10 on Modesto Reverse. I think it has just been so long since I've raced at Venom that I haven't gone back to try to break new records in a while. Good to know that multiplayer races are still beatable. Now that I think about it 1er, I helped you get the bling brigade trophy (I got mine the same time)! That was one of the first "hard to get trophies" I ever received!

Admittedly, I got lucky both times (started first, got shields when needed. got a turbo each lap for the super barrel roll).

[Mietepiet]

i can't find the update file in game data or saved data. do I have to reinstall the game to downgrade?
do you downgrade to v1.0 or can you update to another version pre2.51?

edit:
ok, so I did a quick test. unfortunately I had problems installing Fury, so it's Icaras Fury v2.51 vs. Icaras HD v1.25

First lap: Icaras+ v2.51
second lap: Icaras v1.25 following first lap's ghost

I slam the airbrake in the righthander with inside speedpad and the last righthander. may be I have slightly better lines in the 2nd lap, but I think you can still see the difference as soon as a slam the airbrakes.


http://youtu.be/pfTEQy3zwFU