Are your Wipeout 3 skills rubbish now thanks to Fusion?

[Confusion]

My first topic... :smile:

Mine are and it's annoying. I've only just found this website and all of the times and I want to beat them (especially the W3SE Talon's Reach ones where I'm second), but after playing Fusion for a while my Wipeout 3 skills are worse than they were when I first got the game! The ships feel really jumpy and floaty now.

Anyone else suffering from a similar problem?

[infoxicated]

Yeah, I noticed it quite quickly, as I was trying to see the difference in handling between the two. It takes a whole load of laps to get back into the dynamics of Wipeout 3.

I wish they'd based the handling on Fusion on Wipeout 3 instead of 2097, it would have been less of a leap for me.

Welcome to WipeoutZone :smile:

[Wamdue]

hmm, it is a problem, in fact.. a big problem for me, the amount of time i need for adapting to wo 3 again is too much.. so i think ill never go back to wo3 for more than just nostalgic kicks..

[Confusion]

After seeing some of those times on the tables... I forced myself to play it again and I think I've improved.

I now find all of the easy to pilot ships like the Piranha (my absolute favourite) to be too easy to pilot.

Oddly enough the Icarus (one that I ritually hate) seems to suit me quite well...

Must be one of those things.

[Lance]

my skills have ALways been rubbish.

[science]

positive atitude, man! thats the key! if that doesnt work, bite your controller to show it who's boss!:D

[JABBERJAW]

funny:) I stink as well, although I like the handling of fusion(left right turning) better than previous versions. However, in saying that,they could have had the pitch of the ship still go up and down the EXACT same way as all previous wipeouts. It doesn't mean you neccesarily have to have it take off the track all the time, it could be exactly as it is, except it would slow you down a little and give you a higher angle for hitting the walls. While the game as it is does help you make the corner a little better, but it is nowhere near as needed as the previous games, which for me(using it all the time), kinda stinks. Although I have gotten used to it now and am out of my funk, although I still need time to get some good times(as good as lances!) and scores.

[AmishRobot]

My skills are pretty much rubbish, but I can't blame that on Fusion since I live in the US.

I do pretty well on Porta Kora and Stanza Inter (I think I might be the only one who thinks that's one of the best tracks). I only wish there were a way to compete with elimination challanges. I'd rock the house with my unnaturally aggressive stylings! :smile:

Hey Lance, I notice the only capitalized letters in your post are AL. Was that a sly jab at Zoolander? :wink:

[science]

On 2002-02-20 04:06, AmishRobot wrote:
(I think I might be the only one who thinks that's one of the best tracks


your not alone. stanza inter and manortop are my two favorite tracks in the game.

[Zebula77]

Yes, this is a well known problem. Wipeout 3 and especially 2097 feel WAY too twitchy and you can't help hitting the walls all the time. It is annoying. But Fusion is so much better, I really can't be arsed to go back to the old ones. I like that they've changed the jumpy and floaty handling. I remember the Quirex being especially bouncy, which bugged the feck out of me.

[BurnHead]

What? 2097 Had a twitchy handling???
In fact Fusion handles veery similar to 2097 (oh man... in fact Tigron (Fusion) and Qirex (2097) almost handle the same) - maybe that's why I learned it wayyy faster than WO3!

And now maybe some people understand why I didn't like the handling in Wip3out - and why it took me so long to get at least average times!

[Confusion]

It's a shame that there isn't an Eliminator mode in Fusion. That is by far the best way to learn a track. You can race it over and over again and even if you die you still respawn. I thought it was pretty silly of them to take it out of W3SE.

The handling in Fusion to me is far more drifty and forgiving when you scrape or hit a wall. The only thing I hate is when you hit a sharp corner and it spins you around. It doesn't matter if you are going the other way too! Clip it and your facing the wrong direction.

Still a bloody good game. :smile:

[Zebula77]

Well, maybe not twitchy, but I still kept hitting the walls. Guess I'm too familiar with the handling in Fusion now.

[AmishRobot]

No eliminator mode? Oh, man... that sucks. With the new emphasis on combat, I find that really surprising. The best way to Zone out on WO3 is to set that to 99 and go for broke. It's too easy though, and I was hoping Fusion would fix that. :sad:

[Lance]

joel and al: LOL

AR/James McV: no, that had nothing to do with al, i just capitalize either syllables or individual letters representing sounds as a way of emphasising them. most people either use bold or italics or caps of the entire word for that purpose. but not mE. Oh no, i have to be diFferent. so i write things like ALways or not Even or no wAy, dude.

but back to the topic, i like the twitchiness and the hardbouncing walls of WO3 precisely because it makes the game difficult. you feel like you've really accomplished something when you do a really good lap. if Fusion has made things too soft and easy on the non-zonemode competitions, then it would be less satisfying for me to drive than wip3out. maybe it gives other thrills that would compensate, but of course i won't know until i get to drive it.

Confusion said: ''Clip it and your facing the wrong direction.''

remember GT [and that godawful test drive 5] spin out into the dirt, bang a wall, and you are ALways facing in the wrong effin direction. it doesnt happen like that in real life, not even in that classic old rear-engine Porsche 356 i owned a long time ago. you would think that the greater mass in the back of the car would make you always end up with the back facing in the direction you were traveling, but nO. :smile:


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lance on 2002-02-20 20:12 ]</font>

[Zebula77]

Ok, guys. Fusion is not easy. It is quite challenging actually. It's still annoying to hit the walls, but seeling as how the game is faster (sometimes much faster), I think it is a good thing to not have walls that stop you dead in your track.

[Confusion]

Wipeout 3 seems a lot harder to me. The difference between the different ships is much bigger. In WO3 I could only properly handle a couple of the ships, and even then it was only on half of the tracks.

Fusion is much easier. The difference between each ship is much less now. I can handle pretty much any of the ships in the game with relative ease (but I'm still crap around Alca Vexus). Coupled with the fact that you don't slow down much when you hit a wall like you did in WO3, this is by far an easier game.

Dammit I still haven't even unlocked those secret tracks in WO3SE!

[Zebula77]

You really think WO 3 was harder?
I can't really remember having to much problems with it(exept for the challenges).
I have to disagree that the ships were more different to eachother, though. To me, the ships in Fusion have very distinct qualities.

I have to say though, that it seems a shame to try to argue over which WO game is the best/most difficult/fastest since they're ALL so wonderful. I can't really find it my heart to say anything negative about ANY of them. I love them too much.:smile:

[Confusion]

WO3 was less forgiving I suppose. You crash you stop dead. WF, you crash you slow down a little but you don't stop dead. Makes for an easier game for me though the character's really make each race feel personal. Sometimes too personal. :smile:

just out of interest did anyone ever find controlling the pirhana in 2097 at phantom difficult? The air brakes were weird with that ship... like they were delayed or something.

[BenjaminSoulé]

In my opinion, the handling of WipeoutFusion is like this wintersport "bobsleight" for collision and "FZero" for AG feeling.

For Wo3 skill, I dont think mine are worse since fusion because I didnt stop to play it.
I was disapointed by fusion so I tried to look the current arena challenges and I played on again on WO1 and WO3.
Now I`m playing equal time on WO1,3 and fusion. I think its a good way of getting all the good parts of each games.

I`m not understanding what you wrote Fox : You think that Fusion handling is like wo2097 ? :eek:

Now I`m in Sheffield in England, Do I have better chances for finding rare artefacts like wipoutSE, wipeout Posters or NeGcon ?
( Those qwerty keyboards are really hard to use )

[infoxicated]

You have a better chance of finding 3SE... as for Wipeout posters, try and raid Electronics Boutique! :wink:

I have a couple of the posters myself, but it's knowing where to put them that's the problem.

(and nobody say "in the post to me" because these were hard earned rewards!)

[Lance]

i wouldn't dream of it! except maybe at night.

LOL, Rob. mine is longer! :wink:


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lance on 2002-02-21 19:52 ]</font>

[infoxicated]

Not any more!

[BenjaminSoulé]

but i deserve it !!!
I traveled 30 hours in bus, it was longer than my trip to tokyo. Now I`m in Sheffield the sky is grey, it`s cold and this morning some strange people want me to eat meat and eggs for breakfast !
:smile:

Another topic : When I saw Dover it really make me thinking to portokora : The sea, cliff and also the special green color of herb. :eek:
and the bus was so slow... just like portokora current vector challenge :smile:

[Lance]

LOL

sorry, but i couldn't resist. :smile:

[not being overly blessed means that i have to compensate sOMehow. :grin: ]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lance on 2002-02-21 20:06 ]</font>

[infoxicated]

I thought you would have gotten the train, Ben?

Never been on the Eurostar myself, but I've seen it go past when I was in a station and boy do they go at some speed!

The weather is exactly what you should expect up until the end of April over here - it tends to rain quite a lot, so I'm hoping that either I get a job in the states in a few years time or that Lance invites me over for winter breaks! :wink:

[science]

On 2002-02-21 18:49, BenjaminSoulé wrote:
( Those qwerty keyboards are really hard to use )


LOL!!! i dont know why thats funny, it just is! i cant imagine suddenly having a keyboard laid in front of me with a completely different key format! that would SUCk!

[JABBERJAW]

Ben, comparing fusion to f-zero is sacrelidge and you must now take a cyberwhipping!! I does look a little like it but feels NOTHING like it, although I think f-zero is alright.

[AmishRobot]

f-zero is a lot like Fusion.

Take fusion, remove all aesthetic quality, the great music, cool graphics and handling and replace them with a round static blob that stares into the screen while you manipulate the flat backgrounds to cheesy j-pop techno loops, and you could probably fool somebody.

[BenjaminSoulé]

I was only talking about handling, no more bumps, trigger jump, all of this remind me of F-zero handling.
I`m ok to say that the musics and the graphics are on the top of all wo game but to me wipeout specific AG feeling is no more.

[Zebula77]

Special AG feeling? I presume you're talking about the bouncy handling? Me, I'm glad they took it out. It feels faster and you don't hit the ceilings or the bottom of the road anymore, which bugged the hell out of me. This was especially a problem with the heavier ships, Quirex in particular.

[Confusion]

Thats not entirely true. Mandrashee Course 3... if I hit all the speed pads after the long left hander over the hill I ALWAYS, absolutely always hit the ceiling before the tunnel bit.

If it weren't for that I'm sure I could get some pretty damn fast times. :sad:

[infoxicated]

Or you could just tap the air brakes as you leave the lip - in the same way that you'd have to tap them to make it into the waterfall tunnel in Alca Vexus :smile:

[Confusion]

Yeah but then I would lose part of the speed advantage gained from the speed pads...

Must be a way to do this properly...

[Hyper Shadow]

I had this prob in zone mode, I hit zone 28 and I had enough speed to hit the roof and terminate my run, that is annoying as hell.
Couldn't you just angle the nose down in much the same way that you do to hit the floor on Cubiss 1 instead of jumping the pads?

[Confusion]

I think pushing the nose down before the jump (and keeping it held down) helps a little.

[JABBERJAW]

Yeah, but you can't control the pitch at all in f-zero except on jumps, and your damn car slides out like it's on wheels!! Wipeout fusion is how f-zero should handle if they had any idea of how to make a physics engine.

[Lance]

wouldnt flying in a nose-up or nose=down attitude be the equivalent of airbrakes? both methods slow you down by presenting a larger and less streamlined frontal area to the airflow over the ship. i've seen it stated in the old forum that using nose attitude controls lets you maintain more speed than airbrakes do, but so far i don't see that. it just seems to spread the slowdown over a greater distance and thus make it less evident.
but the total amount of speed loss still seems to be there.

[AmishRobot]

As for as I know, the only effect the pitch controls have are to level the ship to inclines and turn faster or slower. I doubt the PS1 had the power to figure in the drag from aerodynamics, but I could be wrong. Maybe fusion does?

[JABBERJAW]

nose up and down in conjunction with the airbrakes is very important in wipeouts 1-3(and 64), nose up slows you down slightly and gives you a wider area on the track before you hit or scrape, then you only need to tap the airbrake even for tight turns. Fusion needs it as well but it controls a little different

[Lance]

the aerodynamics must be figured in because you can feel and see the ship slow down in a nose-high attitude. for a while i used that when entering the mega mall spiral in the faster classes to reduce the wall-banging. i've also used it off the big jump at p-mar to slow down enough to keep from going uncontrollably [for me :wink: ] fast at the end of the straight. and the amount of slowdown seems proportional to the amount of the angle of attitude.

as Al says, it also seems to give some extra margin in the corners before scraping or hitting. to me, it feels almost like there's a bit of an air-cushion between the ship and the wall when you're heeled way over and nose up. mostly i've just used that in the last tunnel on p-mar, but i should use in a lot more corners.

Al, now that you've played Fusion a lot, do you prefer the ship physics to those of WO3? or do you still like the earlier higher-flying behaviour?

[Confusion]

Pointing the nose up whilst going around tight corner in WO3 helps loads. When you scrape around the outside edge of that corner with the nose up it seems like you are using that outside wall to boost off or something.

I suppose it's like when an aircraft comes close to the ground and pulsl up at teh last minute... like a sudden extra boost from the floor to make it turn better...

[jmoid]

also if you want to take a croner really tight, push the nose down. it's a little more tricky but it works too.

[BenjaminSoulé]

maybe I`ve not playing enough to fusion but when I try to put the nose up or dowm, it seems to only affect view (I use the inside view).
In the air it seems to affect the gravity but very basically, not a really aerodinamic feeling.
If I compare Pmar 2d jump with Alcavexus Cascade jump (or Florion3 jump) there are very differents.
While you re flying on pmar its like you control a plane, you can control a lot of parameters. However in fusion, the jump look alway the same, your moves seems to affect slightly the jump speed and the landing...


Al : I would like to know what you`re meaning by "it control a little different".
Is the pitch as important in fusion than in the other Wo game ? it doesn`t reaaly seems to be...

[jmoid]

imho:

pitch control in 2097 & wip3out = absolutely crucial

pitch control in fusion = almost non-existant

[zargz]

stanza rulez!

[science]

to go back just a little bit, someone said that they were glad that they took the bouncy feel out of fusion because they were tired of hitting the track/ceiling, etc. (should have used the quote button, huh?)
honestly, i think that its too bad that they took that out of fusion. every element you remove from the game makes it less challenging. in wipeout3, on top of airbrakes, you have to perfect where to dump some hyperthrust, and where you should pull you nose up or push it down if you wanna come out with some really great times.
i think that its a shame that they took both of those elements out of fusion.

[BenjaminSoulé]

I`m not really sure they "wanted" to remove it...
Maybe it`s a choice because it was difficult to keep aerodynamic realism and also include twisted road and loop.
It`s just a supposition since I can`t imagine how this two parts could be coded in the same engine.

Fox, I would be very happy, if you could answer this question by asking to the develloper team. I`m really interested in game devellopement.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BenjaminSoulé on 2002-02-25 11:15 ]</font>

[infoxicated]

As far as I know the dev team never really looked at Wipeout 3 during the development of Fusion. They concentrated more on 2097 and the original.

The craft have two physics models, if I remember correctly - one for on the surface and the other for in the air. So when you're going fast enough to leave the track it changes models so the craft behaves differently. That's all I know about that aspect of the game.

[Lance]

WO3 was done by the Leeds studio, so when Liverpool studio developed Fusion, they followed their own earlier work of WO and WO2097. 3 seems to be the only one that has that 'flying' feeling to it. when i take off 2097's big jump before the finish at Gare d'Europa, it feels like i'm pilotiing a rock. there seems to be a bit less aerodynamic effect in it than there was in WO.

the two studios have a somewhat different take on the game, but both of them work. i happen to prefer the more aerodynamic model of WO3.

i think that both of the visuals approaches are valid, but that's another subject.

does anyone know if the Leeds studio is still in existence and what they might be doing?

[JABBERJAW]

I believe it still helps, but not as much(especially in zone mode). On regular races it is still good for cornering though. It doesn't give you the higher area for not hitting, however, it still slows you down and helps in conjunction with airbrakes

[vincoof]

infox: sometimes we can see the 'two physics'. Hopefully, it is often well done.
But when not done correctly, it really looks crap. For instance in the track of the gold pirhana challenge (don't remember the name of the track.. sorry) if you fly through small jumps "as is", then you incredibly stick to the track (zargz will b happy :grin:), otherwise if you pull the nose up you incredibly "take off" and can't land correctly. That's very annoying. It resembles alot of a bug but in fact it's just crap physics engine :sad: (IMO of course)

[infoxicated]

And you want me to do what about that?

[vincoof]

hey I'm not asking you to do anything about it.
Otherwise I would have posted it in The Evolution Engine :wink:

I don't like saying the game is crap, but that part is IMO the worst of all. I can admit all of the other bugs, and I can understand why they're here.
But the 'two physics' really look bad on that specific track.
In fact it is the _only_ thing that really pisses me off in the game.

Sorry infox ^^'

Nothing pisses me off in wo1
Piranha's (note the syntax :wink:) overall superiority pisses me off in wo2097/xl.
The baby difficulty pisses me off in wo3
The randomness of the savegames pisses me off in wo64
And the ground physics being different than air physics pisses me off in Fusion

And sorry about the _bad_ language. I need more vocabulary. :razz:

[Lance]

the baby difficulty?

[BenjaminSoulé]

yes, in Wo3 unlocking all the feature is a long work, but no very difficult.
In WipeOut series I`m not interested in progression system since I prefer challenge and dual versus real people, so I don`t care the "Baby difficulty" of wo3.

I really agree with your "Wipeout Series description", Vincoof, on every points.

Maybe I should add for WO1 : Bug when you hit a computer, being accelerated and rushed into nearest the wall :mad:

[vincoof]

Lance: just an example at PortoKora / Phantom / SR : If you race the Icaras, you can go to the first place (easily) and then you can lap the second pilot, right ? I think everybody can. But it is possible to lap this pilot twice ! And if you race very well and have damn luck (eg good weapons) you can lap him three times !!
It's absolutely impossible to lap the second pilot three times in any other WipEout.

The *hard* parts of wip3out are :

The Feisar Phantom SR medals, because the ship is damn too slow.
Some of the challenges,
The last prototype (the 4th) at phantom,
And the race time to beat at terminal/rapier. (but I think it was a typo error because the time has changed in wo3se)

and all of the rest of the game is _very_ easy.
So, you won't have much of a challenge in a tournament (for instance) unless you stick to race with Feisar.


Ben: You're right about that WO1 thing, but it does not "pisses me off". In fact, I try to play with it when I can because it gives you an awesome free boost ! It's like the scraping turbo : it can be good or bad, but you deserve what you get. :smile:

[Lance]

i was wondering how babies might come into it. i would have just said that it was too easy. ''baby difficulty'' is just not a phrase that comes to mind. i've never heard it used here in the U.S. it must be one of those idiomatic french things, cos you and ben both are on the same wavelength with that expression. :smile:
ben understood what you meant right away.

i could, of course, be wrong.

[Wiseman]

Actually, from what I get from it, it's kinda a double meaning.

He's not only refering to the fact that Wip3out is easy, but that it's long as well... hence 'baby steps', there are many stages involved in beating Wip3out, but they are mostly easy.

I pretty much got what he ment right away, I've actually heard that term used before....

But then again half my family was born somewhere in Europe, so....

::shrugs::

[Hyper Shadow]

I thought that the learning curve in Wip3out was excellent. But in saying that, it was the first ever Wip3out that I ever played, and the way the game progressed meant that my skills improved as I got onto the harder difficulties, plus with the more things available to win, I actually felt that I was progressing, rather than 2097 with the high learning curve and difficult challenges, my attention waned as I found that I couldn't achieve the goals. The same is for zone mode.

But in saying that, a seasoned veteran may find Wip3out too easy for the exact same reasons that I am praising it.

[Confusion]

I don't see why everyone is complaining abvout the physics engine in Fusion. OK it does seem a little unrealistic to have a craft suddenly change physics from aerial to ground (some jumps you go far then all of a sudden WHAM!), but then if we followed the story line of the game isn't it that the AG Craft generate their own physics? Maybe they're supposed to do that.

The change from Wipeout 2097 to Wipeout 3 was quite big for me. I've found that to be the same (though not as bad for Fusion).

I dunno about you guys but I've found that if you go straight to racing at the fastest speeds, you learn so much quicker. Learning curve in 2097 was too far for me. Odessa Keys last corner is too damned hard.

[Hyper Shadow]

Is the dual physics engine the reason why sometimes a ship will never come down off a jump. (The physics engine never changes from ground to air??)

[jmoid]

i miss the vertical motion in fusion - it would be better, imho, with more. but it's still a fantastic game, and well worthy of being the successor to w3.

[BenjaminSoulé]

In my opinion The two physic engine is the reason of 80% of the bugs.
I'm less exerienced than the people that have coded Fusion but I can't help thinking it was a very bad coding choice.

I mean the loop and twisted tracks are cool, but the price is really to high... :sad:

... And I don't think that we can explain it with storyline, no more than Wo3 scrape system or Wo1 speed boost for enemy collision...

[vincoof]

Hey, I still love this game ! :smile:

But the fact is that some things are not funny to experience, especially when you race hard for eg a record.

IMO the 'two physisc' is not really a bug (even though I agree with Ben that it can yield bugs). It's just a lack in the game design. That's why I hate that choice so much.

It's as bas as giving wheels to the crafts.
In Rollcage, I can understand that there are two physics (1- the ground, 2- the air), but in Wipeout that's simply unbelievable.

Though, it's only visible in a small part of the game. Hopefully :smile: