UK localisation?

[Bob Todd]

How come that games for the UK and Australian markets are not localised as they are for European countries?

In my experience, the PAL versions of games have often exactly the same voices and dialogue as the US versions. So what's the problem? It's all in English, isn't it?
I often have trouble understanding what the characters in American-made games are saying without subtitles, because they often have such strong accents, and Americans in general don't tend to enunciate as clearly as I'd like. Games converted for European countries have the wording changed (besides the translation, obviously) to fit in with the cultural vocabulary (e.g. in Ratchet & Clank the word 'lardball' is used, but in the French translation this becomes 'waste of space', because 'lardball' doesn't translate literally into anything French). However, the PAL games I play are often still peppered with US slang, some of which I don't understand.

Why is this? The UK is the most important PAL territory, accounting for more games purchased than any other European country. I'd like to see a videogame main character without an American accent, and some British cultural references wouldn't go amiss.

There are appropriate localisation teams for European languages - you see 'German localisation team' and 'French localisation team' etc. in the credits of many games. A UK or Australian one would hardly kill them.
Some games do have characters with fixed nationalities, such as Sam Fisher of Splinter Cell working for the US government, but games set in imaginary locations could very easily change the nationalities of the characters with no harm done.

The localisation should be done properly, too - not of the sterotypes that the Americans have of the British (like Moby in SSX - no British person talks like that unless they're taking the piss out of themselves). I'm talking proper regional acents as well - not just the Cockney and 'BBC English' that Britons are usually depicted as talking by Americans.

Thoughts?

[AmishRobot]

Although it makes sense, I can't help but find it humorous that you mention Americans having strong accents. :) I listen to the BBC most nights, and there are often times where I'll miss entire statements because I was trying to figure out what that one word was, that was spoken 30 seconds ago.

What you say about stereotypes is something I completely agree with, though it's not just Americans that do it. Take pretty much any Japanese fighting game. The black guy is always "from da streetz", the englishman is a dandified prick, etc. I'm sure there are European games that do it too, though I can't think of any off the top of my head that feature characters from different nationalities. I personally don't think that stereotypes are inherently bad, but they can go too far. Two examples I can think of are Kung Fu Chaos and DJ Boy.

As for the localization of games to the UK, I obviously can't do anything about it, but if you come across an American phrase or slang word that you just don't get, feel free to ask here. There are enough of us that I'm sure would be happy to help.

...Though I should warn you that I'm not exactly hip with pop culture. I still use the word "rad", which officially died sometime in the late 80's :D

[Thruster2097]

The only game so far to get the localisation near-perfect has to be SSX Tricky.
Moby is my digital self image :P (ell, he`s got tha voice of a londonah, an e likes tea... nuff said?)
more of the same? any other examples?

[Vasudeva]

Hmm, this reminds me of a discussion we had a while ago here about clichés and stereotypes in fighting games.

I also feel that Europeans are a little discriminated when it comes down to gaming. The vast majority of gaming characters are Japanese, Chinese or American. I think one of the reasons for this is that there aren't *that* many big gaming companies from Europe.

There has never been a Belgian in a game, by the way, except for "the Optician" in Destruction Derby but that was not someone to be proud of (one of the worst characters who looked like a geek :-?).

On the other hand, stereotypes can help to enhance an experience with a character. In FFX for example I can't help but finding Tidus a real Californian style dude, but this, in part, is probably related to his strong American accent. And then Jax in MK:DA is so completely over the top that it becomes funny. After a while I even find myself guilty of going along and saying "oooh yeah" whenever I shoot someone down with that oversized machine gun. Gotta love him!

By the way, why do Dwarves always have to speak Scots!? Infox, any clue? :)

Peace (it's a hot, disappointing day.),
V.

[AmishRobot]

There has never been a Belgian in a game, by the way, except for "the Optician" in Destruction Derby but that was not someone to be proud of (one of the worst characters who looked like a geek :-?).
well, the games Frequency and Amplitude have a band on them called Freezepop, and one of the members of that band is named, "The Duke of Belgian Waffles".

Work with me here.... I'm trying. ;)

[Lance]

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''majority of gaming characters are Japanese, Chinese or American. I think one of the reasons for this is that there aren't *that* many big gaming companies from Europe.''
are there any chinese gaming companies?

if there's ever a belgian gaming company, they could probably persuade Clan of Xymox to do the music ;)

real local british accents: hmm... Anna, if you saw The Crying Game, what accent was 'Dil' speaking in? it certainly wasn't cockney, but it wasn't BBC, or standard upper-class London either. was it just moviespeak, or was it a real one?

dwarves speaking in Scots accents? surely you can't mean John Rhys-Davies/Thorin Oakenshield?! clearly the man is Welsh! [cymric/kymraig]
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[Vasudeva]

are there any chinese gaming companies?

Not that I know of :). But the Japanese do include a lot of Chinese (or Korean) people in their games. Neighbours and all that, probably ;).


if there's ever a belgian gaming company, they could probably persuade Clan of Xymox to do the music ;)

There actually is a Belgian gaming company but I forgot its name. It produced the game "Outcast", which received quite good comments by the mags. I never played it myself though.


dwarves speaking in Scots accents? surely you can't mean John Rhys-Davies/Thorin Oakenshield?! clearly the man is Welsh!

I think you mean Gimli. Thorin Oakenshield is a character from "the Hobbit" :). Rhys-Davies may be Welsh but the accent in the LOTR movies is, to the best of my knowledge, not Welsh. As a student of English, I should be able to recognise accents of English and Welsh English is not rhotic, Scots is. Gimli speaks strongly rhotic English :).

That's for the geeky linguistics hour with Vasudeva! I expect xEik to barge in any moment with a weird correspondence from Catalan :lol:.

Peace!
V.

[Lance]

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well, that's what i get for not seeing the movie. but i have read the books, so that's no excuse. i suppose it would help if i could wake up enough so i would have noticed the error before posting. i fell asleep again after checking out wz. i just got up again, so i've basically slept from 0400 to 1700 with about 2 hours sort of awake thrown in there after 1330. i wonder if that cold i caught a couple of weeks ago was mono or something. first time i got sick in a long time and i've been tired ever since. hm.. weird. i'm rambling. sorry. i feel like going to sleep again right now. this is not normal, i should be waking up at this time of day! ;)
probably i just need to eat and sleep in a more 'normal' pattern like most people do. i'll probably come back and delete this post later; i'm thinking this is one of those empty posts you were talking about elsewhere. i've been letting things be looser on the forums in that respect lately cos everybody's being good-humoured and nice to each other and reasonably relevant to the topics....and it feels good on the forums right now.
later

[lunar]

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[cymric/kymraig]


Lance, the word is Cymro (meaning a "welshman"). The letter K doesn`t exit in the Welsh language (Cymraeg). :wink:

I`m sure the short guy had a scottish or cornish accent in the movie though I can`t really remember.

[Lance]

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cymraeg is the adjectival form isn't it? which is what i was going for, Welsh rather than Welshman. i don't like to say Welsh because my ancestors are cymraeg/kymraig, and ''Welsh'' is from 'waelisc', a Saxon word. i used the k to indicate to americans that it is pronounced as a k not an s. over here the famous basketball team, the Boston Celtics is always pronounced as the Seltics. oddly enough, the british shipping company, the White Star Line used the same incorrect pronunciation for a predecessor of the Titanic. it was the first of the Big Four, the Celtic, Cedric, Baltic, and Adriatic. [the Celtic went into service in 1900, whereas the company was not bought by an American company until 1903 {the usual date given, though i have once seen it as 1902}, so theoretically, they should have pronounced it as Keltic]

and i happen to like the i instead of the e, so my preferred spelling of cymraeg is kymraig. ;) :D

that supreme source ;) of linguistic data, the National Geographic Magazine, in an article published many years ago, stated that Cymru, which supposedly means 'fellow countryman' or 'countrymen' , i forget which, is supposed to be used to mean what the English mean by 'Wales'. but i don't have the knowledge to affirm or dispute their statement. do you happen to know if that's true?
[i have that issue of NG somewhere in the house, but i'm damned if i know where it is, too many piles of NG and also car magazines]

i have a version of the Opera browser in ''Cymric'', but i understand probably less then half the words. the confusing thing about the language is that the spelling is radically more complicated than the pronunciation. the words often have far fewer sounds and syllables than they appear to have.

my own name, Lancelot, is said to be the modern form of Llenlleoc, a slightly altered form of the original name. my namesake, Sir Lancelot of the Lake, of Arthurian legend, was apparently the Celtic god Llwch Llenlleoc. i am told that ll is pronounced as hl, the w is probably like a long or semi-long u, so at a guess i would say it's pronounced in a simplified and americanised way as something like hlook hlenhleok. i think i'll probably stick with 'Lancelot'.

btw, llen is another form of the cymric word llain, which means 'spear' or 'lance'
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[Vasudeva]

Greetings,

I assumed "Cymraeg" was the name for the Welsh language but I'm not sure. I knew the <c> was /k/ (digression here, in phonetics written characters are represented between < > and phonetic items between / / or [ ] depending on the branch of science, phonetics or phonology). The <c> = /k/ thing is also true for Latin. In fact Gaelic languages are more akin to Latin and Romance languages than they are to Germanic languages.

Very interesting history of your name, Lance! An odd thing is that king Arthur himself was most likely a Welsh king who was able to successfully repel the Anglo-Saxon invaders for some time but later became part of English history himself, in an English form. That's typically Germanic. Attila the Hun, too, appears in Germanic legends as a Germanic leader although he was not Germanic at all :).

Back to Welsh. It's an interesting language in the sense that it's, as far as I know, the only language which makes the distinction between clear <l> and dark or pharyngealised <l> clear in its writing.

My own name is originally Greek, by the way (Hieronymos or Hieron). Oh and Vasudeva is Indian. It's the ferryman in Hesse's "Siddhartha" :).

Peace,
V.

[Lance]

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my phonology has been limited to Nokia and Sony

in the interests of brevity, i left out most of the details of my name's history of variation and origin

arthur was, as the romans called it, a dux bellorum [battle leader, war leader] who fought 12 [according to one source, and there are few sources] great battles against the invading germanic peoples [''saxons''] in the late 5th century. the final battle which stopped the invasions for a few decades was supposed to be at Mount Badon in 490 A.D. he was apparently celtic, but was presumably romanised in culture to some extent, though i suspect not much as the romans had been largely gone for a long time already, so it is likely that the celts had reverted fairly thoroughly to their own traditional culture. just my speculation, of course. a period of peace occurred after Mt. Badon, during which the legendary stories take place, though they are coloured by the culture of the Norman and other French conquerors and successors of the saxons who eventually had pushed the celts into the west of Britain. the celts got their 'revenge' on the saxons and normans by winning the long War of the Roses in 1485, and installed Henry Tudor [Twdr or Twdyr] as Henry VII on the English throne. it was in that very year of cymric success that Thomas Malory had his book, Le Morte d'Arthur, published in London by William Caxton. it was written while he was imprisoned by the Yorkists because he was a Lancastrian, a supporter of Henry Tudor, and published after Malory's release. Henry Tudor's descendent, Elizabeth I, who died in 1603, was the last of the ''welsh'' monarchs. on her death, there was no successor in her direct family line, so James VI of Scotland became James I of England to begin the Jacobean era of the monarchy.

those pharyngealised 'l's are one of the glories of the Cymru [Cymro?] and the bane of speakers of English. and don't forget the crossed 'd' usually rendered in modern typography as dd and pronounced as a soft th. [note that i continue to flout the conventional representations of phonology :D ]

did you know that Hieron [also seen as Heron] was a Greek of the Alexandrian period who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, and he built the very first automobile that we know of. it was powered by a very simple steam turbine, also the first that we know of. it had very little power and was very slow. for some reason, this and other devices invented by him were never developed to the point of real usefulness, though the technology of the time could have made them so. he lived in the late first century and perhaps early second century A.D.
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[Thruster2097]

The name Thruster derives from an old nickname I earned at college. A very long story which mainly comprises of a passion for ladies old enough to be my mum (apparently :o ) and go-karts. It just sorta stuck with me, I guess!
it also has something to do with jet turbine engines?? :-?

As for the 2097 part...... errr.... believe it or not, there is a story to that.
On the first wipeout forum I joined (the w3pa when it was in competition with the offical site) my nickname was thruster. Then, when the offical wip3out site closed, the w3pa site had an overhaul (to the glorious ezboard :wink: ), and I had to re-submit my username. Since it was the second forum I joined, I used the second game name, which for me, was 2097 (could`ve been thruster XL if I lived across the pond)
Theoretically, my screen name for the wipeoutzone should now be thrust3r.... but it just didnt look right.

So there you have it.
How to make a post while completley avoiding the subject! (because you do not want to get me started about the welsh.... the moderators may have to get involved 8) )

[lunar]

Cymraeg = the welsh language
Cymreig is the adjective, pertaining to Wales
Cymru is simply the noun meaning "Wales", as it is called by the "Saeson" :wink
The plural of Cymro (welshman) is Cymry, and the feminine is Cymraes.
I think that does it!

Welsh is a very simple language to pronounce, in that it is entirely phonetic as far as I know, but even so I`ve never got a grip of it, the mutations especially. Thought about answering a bit in welsh, but a real welsh speaker might be watching and that would be :oops: for me.

Changing the subject to the English, they can be known as Saeson or Sassenachs to their welsh or scottish neighbours, and I guess both words must be related to the word Saxon, meaning axe wielding marauders and long haired 80s rockers. :wink:

[Lance]

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mm.. yes, i've read the sassenach one in literary dialog.

i forgot to mention that the saxon word waelisc, and hence its modern form, Welsh, means foreign or foreigners or some such. since they are citizens of the U.K., as are also the descendants of the Saxons, that seems both wrong and absurd.

thanks for the definitions! they clarify things considerably.

the National Geographic was right. so perhaps my sarcasm was unwarranted. :)

thrusty: one of them is already involved. to use an old chat cliche.... muahahahahahahaaaaaaaa
the others may have to hold me down if we start talking about the 'welsh'
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[lunar]

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i forgot to mention that the saxon word waelisc, and hence its modern form, Welsh, means foreign or foreigners or some such. since they are citizens of the U.K., as are also the descendants of the Saxons, that seems both wrong and absurd.

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Its absurd to define people by their `otherness` in the modern world, of course, but even Cymraeg has old words that describe compatriots in this way. In South Wales, the people from the north are known as "Gogs", which is derived from the word "gogledd" meaning "north". There was a cartoon series about cavemen called "Gogs", made by people in Cardiff. I`ve seen it on planes.

On the other hand, the Gogs call people from South Wales "Hwntw" (I assume that`s how you spell it, I`ve never seen it written down). I believe this comes from "tu hwnt" which means "beyond", in this case meaning "beyond the mountains" (the mountains of mid-wales, Plynlimon and Cadair Idris).


On topic moment: If you`re going to make just one English language version of a game, it makes sense to orientate it towards the biggest market. If american slang put enough of us off buying games they`d probably localise it, but I don`t think it does, so they don`t. It comes down to money, and whether its worth the cost of localising the game. Also American English is probably far more international than UK English, as is american culture. It doesn`t bother me anyway - GTA Vice City in Miami sounds a lot more exciting than GTA Brighton.

Localisation happens sometimes though - SSX Tricky exchanged the German trick-whizzkid Marty for a boy named Mack in the NTSC version. But Kaori`s better anyway.

[Vasudeva]

Greetings,

Interesting information!

Is "Welsh" really derived from the Saxon word for "foreigners"? In my history classes in secondary school I was taught that the words Gaul, Wales, Wallonia, Galates, Gaelic and other names for places originally inhabited by Celtic people (or the names given to their languages) came from this g[insert vocal]l root which was actually Roman or perhaps even Indo-European in origin. Not sure though.

And to move back on topic, too:

Yes, in GTA Vice City the American accent is very appropriate. Replacing it by something else would kill the game. Also, as much as I'm an "internationalist" (does that word even exist?) I really hate dubbing. Luckily here in Belgium we have subtitles in our movies instead of dubbing.

Peace!
V.

[Synthetic Consciousness]

Lance, the Saxon alphabet had no 'w'. Hence, waelisc is the Old English word for "foreign" (the Anglo-Norman word was waleis). The Saxon word for "foreign" was vvallon. (note that in this font, that looks like a 'w', when actually it's two 'v's together, and thus also carries a 'v' sound, not a 'w' sound.). These words all derived from Latin vallus, which means "rampart", or "palisade"; from whence we ultimately derive the word "wall". The concept was more or less 'one who is outside the wall'. The Old English word for "foreigner" is wealh (the Anglo-Saxon variant was walh). The word wealh came to be applied by the British to minorites (or, as they saw it at the time, all who were not from Britain), and was given to both the Welsh and the Scots (giving the Scottish surname of Walas, or Wallace, and the English surnames of Wallis and Walsh). As such, both wealh and walh ultimately developed a second meaning: "serf" (or more derogatory, "slave"). At the time, Scotland and Wales were not a part of the United Kingdom. Thus they were seen as outsiders, and barbarians. The Saxon word for "foreigner" was vvrekkio (again, two 'v's).

Regarding Welsh Cymro ("Welshman"); it derives from the Old English word cumbrogos, which means "compatriot", "a fellow countryman". This word survives mostly in place names today, such as Cumberworth. The Welsh word for "foreigner" is allfro. Related is allobroges ("those from foreign lands").

[Lance]

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^..the Saxon alphabet had no 'w'. Hence, waelisc is the Old English word for "foreign"^
it seems to me that 'saxon' was the generally accepted term for the germanic invaders/settlers as a group, so that the person whose statement i read was simply following conventional practice when using the word 'saxon'. the ''Count of the Saxon Shore'' was responsible for defending the east coast of Britain from all the germanic tribes, yet presumably for convenience and possibly because of the pre-eminence of the saxon tribes as the most dangerous at the time, the Britons [another agglomerative conventional name] used 'saxon' as part of his title. i was under the impression that Old English was the Saxon, Angle, Jute mishmash that formed the basis of middle and modern english. would not that mean that waelisc whether double v'd or otherwise would therefore be essentially the word used by these generic ''Saxons'' for foreign, foreigner, stranger, alien, etc.? in which case the source of my data was essentially correct?

damn, i sound like an attorney. it's a good thing that it isn't mY original statement under discussion, cos if my ego were on the line based on the accuracy of the statement, just imagine the argumentative lengths i would go to in order to demonstrate that i was right. tsk. [turbo eyeroll]

very interesting set of words and data. i would suppose that the similarity of these is due not so much as to their being derived from Latin as it is to their being parallel developments of the ancestral Indo-European.

what does 'cwm' originally mean? valley? it's used by mountaineers as the name of a high valley between ridges in the Himalaya, usually summit ridges, i think, maybe. but it bears an obvious resemblance to cumberland, etc.

man, i thought that there were more web designers in the forums than anything else, but the linguisti are giving them a race
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[Bob Todd]

There was a cartoon series about cavemen called "Gogs", made by people in Cardiff. I`ve seen it on planes.

Gogs is utterly hilarious! I've got all the episodes on video. I wanted to buy the film as well, but they discontinued its video release before I got a chance to.
They only made a small number of episodes - it'd be ace if they did some more.

[Vasudeva]

Lance, the Saxon alphabet had no 'w'. Hence, waelisc is the Old English word for "foreign" (the Anglo-Norman word was waleis). The Saxon word for "foreign" was vvallon. (note that in this font, that looks like a 'w', when actually it's two 'v's together, and thus also carries a 'v' sound, not a 'w' sound.). These words all derived from Latin vallus, which means "rampart", or "palisade"; from whence we ultimately derive the word "wall". The concept was more or less 'one who is outside the wall'.

This sounds interesting but still doesn't account for the similarities between the names "Wales" and "Wallonia" or "Gallia". There was no wall in Belgium :).

Additionally, if two <v>'s written together was still a /v/, then what did a single <v> mean? It's my understanding that the <w> descended from two <v> to represent the sound /w/. Also, it's not because a certain character does not appear in a language, that the sound doesn't exist. Ancient Hebrew writings had no vowels, bt fcrs th ddnt spk ths w :).

As a point of interest I might also note that the Latin <v> was pronounced /u/ and, at the beginning of a word, as a /w/ :).

Peace!
V.

PS: THIS IS MY 300TH POSTING!!! CELEBRATION!!! :D

[Lance]

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congratulations. reaching 300 by posting messages that are, at the least, reasonably entertaining and/or informative is a worthy achievement.

there are not all that many of the members who sustain a high level of enthusiasm long enough to get there, but the number of them is growing
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[lunar]

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what does 'cwm' originally mean? valley? it's used by mountaineers as the name of a high valley between ridges in the Himalaya, usually summit ridges, i think, maybe. but it bears an obvious resemblance to cumberland, etc.

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Yes "cwm" means valley, and its most famous use is in the welsh soap opera "Pobl y Cwm." Other welsh words for valley are "dyffryn" which means a broader, flat valley, and "Glyn" which is similar to "Glen" and means the same thing I suppose. Other than that, welsh is very unlike gaelic, but is very similar to Breton. My French is fairly poor, but I found Welsh words a help sometimes when I was in Britanny years ago.

[Lance]

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yup, that's why they call it Brittany; maybe some of the british tribes were pushed out of Britain to Brittany as a result of the germanic invasions or maybe the Britons were mostly descendants of people who came from Brittany. dunno how it went.

you live mighty close to the 'Welsh'; are you of kym.... uh.... ;)cymraeg descent?
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[Vasudeva]

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yup, that's why they call it Brittany; maybe some of the british tribes were pushed out of Britain to Brittany as a result of the germanic invasions or maybe the Britons were mostly descendants of people who came from Brittany. dunno how it went

That's why they called their isle "Great Britain", compared to the smaller mainland "Britain". In Latin, even, the largest of the British isles was called "Britannia" and in Dutch it still is "Britannië". We call Brittany "Bretagne" as in French.

I don't think the Celtic tribes were pushed from Britain to Bretagne, however. Rather, they crossed the Channel and invaded the isles themselves (about 500 BC I guess... perhaps even sooner?).

And indeed Lunar, to my recollection, Welsh and Breton are more closely linked than Welsh and Gaelic are.

V.

[lunar]

V. so contary to reputation its not only Saxons who like to go on holidays to other countries and wave their axes about, scaring all the locals into submission.

L: My parents` distant ancestors are welsh and scottish, but the less distant generations lived in Wolverhampton (recently promoted to the Premier League :lol: ). We moved to Wales when I was two weeks old, but I`ve lived in England since I was sixteen. So culturally I guess I`m mainly english with a love of wales, except when it comes to rugby in which I`m Cymro thru and thru. These sorts of matters don`t bother me though. There are a lot of people in the UK who prefer to think of themselves as european. If you look it the mish mash of all this tribal history it probably makes more sense too.

Off to Kymru for a few days now. Work though, so much of it I`ve only played an hour of wipeout in two weeks. This will not do. :evil:

Your name is quite widespread in Wales. The most famous Prices I can think of are Dilys and "Naughty" Norman Price from the childrens` programme Fireman Sam. :wink:

[Lance]

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well, if he's naughty, he must be related to me, then, though the Norman part makes it seem that's where his naughtiness comes from.
don't forget about all the Preeces, Reeces, Reeses, and the founder of the nomination, Rhys.
and Pryces.
somehow in America, the ee sound of the y got transformed into the long vertical i. [insert left and right arrow designators anywhere into that sentence that you prefer them]
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[Thruster2097]

Now thats just typical.
I live in this sceptered isle, yet you guys prove to me that I know nothing of its origins. I've always thought of wales like a pimple, a blemish on the face of britain. A land that mainly consists of grass, and some of the worlds longest spelling errors. Quoting from one of my peers, "A race of people with nothing to say."
And I'm not about to consider myself ignorant - on the contrary, I enjoy different cultures and customs. its probably the reason that I am so fascinated with japan and everything japanese.

Theres a moral to this story ...somewhere.....

[zargz]

u like japanese girls? (^_____^)

[Thruster2097]

I go for any girl who has the right atitude, regardless of where they're from
More accuratley, after countless hours of begging, im too tired to care where they come from! :lol:

[Lance]

was damned sure the manliest.
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Thrusty:
"A race of people with nothing to say." and wonderful voices to sing it with.
but maybe the medium is both the message and the massage

''the worlds longest spelling errors''
:lol: :lol: :lol:
:D

and yes the japanese have one of the greatest and most interesting [and simpatico to me] cultures in the world, both historically and present-day
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