Tropes in Videogames [Archive]

Medusa

8th March 2013, 03:42 PM

Excellent video. I thought it was presented in an unbiased, logical manner. Thanks for bringing it up, Oryx. (I also watched the one on Online Harassment/Cyber mobs (on her website). Very interesting and somewhat chilling.)

In general, I think that sexism (towards both sexes, not just women) is being promoted more and more in the media (not just games). I'm glad to see that there are a few voices out there actually trying to raise awareness.

I would never call myself a feminist. Perhaps an "equalist". :P While I don't think anyone could argue that in general, women are physically weaker than men, I agree that most video games I've played/seen put women either in a pathetic role or objectify them past the point of ridiculousness. Even if they are raised past being an object to acquire, and become a playable character (that may actually be useful in the game), this is easily offset by inflating their breasts to balloonish proportions or shrinking their minds to near-toddler ability. (see Star Ocean The Last Hope...Rao in Okami...)

Of interest to me was the use of the Mirror's Edge backdrop in the Cybermob video. While games definitely tend to use sexist tropes and have heroes who (appear to) view/use women as objects, I'm thankful that there have been a few proper exceptions to the rule.

Probably a bigger effect than simply videogames is the fact that the media exerts more and more pressure on women to conform to its stereotypes. For example, the stereotype that to be feminine, a woman should show cleavage, have large breasts, full lips, etc etc. Subtlety? Personality? Naw. Don't need it. If you watch US/North American TV with a critical eye for only one evening, you'll notice these stereotypes. Also, have you noticed the definite shift away from focus on relationships to focus on sex? Sex sells, and the media knows it. Why bother spending money to develop characters with meaningful relationships in your TV shows, when you can throw them in bed together each show and have a guaranteed ratings spike. (pun intended) In my opinion, this same mentality is carrying over into videogames. Why bother making a new video game, with a lead female character who intelligent, capable, and interesting, if you can toss in a brothel, a damsel-in-distress, and maybe a couple of near-naked bystanders into a game and have a guaranteed bestseller?

Am I cynical? Yeah, maybe. But our entertainment gives us implications of where our society's attitudes are resting. The implication I get right now is that people don't care and don't want to think. So bring on the six-packs and boobs and let's all have a laugh. :D

Darkdrium777

8th March 2013, 05:15 PM

Some reading material (http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/19vcan/damsel_in_distress_part_1_tropes_vs_women_in/)

Unfortunately while I agree that it's well presented, there is some slight bias there. It's nothing too bad, but /u/Typhron pointed it out some on that Reddit thread.

I find it particularly odd that Youtube comments are disabled on a piece of material opening up a discussion. I know Youtube comments are generally not very insightful, but some people may find the time to have a discussion there. I know it happens on one of my videos, so it's not impossible.

However I do personally feel that tropes like this are played out. Your game had better be one heck of an original one if I have to save a princess in it, otherwise I won't bother. And if I look at my gaming history, I don't usually (exceptions are Kingdom Hearts, Prince of Persia). I thought Heavenly Sword was in fact one of the most badass portrayals of a female character. Of course, I was able to look passed the tits. Eh. :S

Oryx Crake

8th March 2013, 05:58 PM

@Medusa: I call myself a feminist actually... well I would cept it sounds really weird for a guy to say it but I definitely do support proper feminism, I think the term has just been hijacked by chauvinists and so called moral-conservatives, equating the term with stuff like hairy armpits and butch-lesbianism or ideas of matriarchy etc. boogeymen and strawmen designed to discredit the idea of feminism in the minds of people. Same thing that has happened to the term liberal in north america really, where it once was the same thing we call liberal in europe but whereas now it seems to be used the same way people use the term communist(that is of course from what I can see I mean I might be wrong in this of course). Anyway the point is that proper feminism is really nothing more than a the struggle for equal rights between the sexes, a noble cause if you ask me.

and yeah I agree with your assessment of people's attitudes today though, I think more and more people would frown at blatant sexism than say 10 years ago, so in a sense we're moving in the right direction, we can't get complacent though.

@Darkdrium: Yeah you certainly don't have to agree with everything she's saying I think that the reason she has disabled comments though is that when she announced this project she literally received thousands of both death and rape threats, I too would be hesitant to allow comments in such a case, you could say she's handling it the wrong way I suppose but in this case I absolutely understand her.

Medusa

8th March 2013, 08:54 PM

... I definitely do support proper feminism, I think the term has just been hijacked by chauvinists and so called moral-conservatives, equating the term with stuff like hairy armpits and butch-lesbianism or ideas of matriarchy etc. boogeymen and strawmen designed to discredit the idea of feminism in the minds of people. ... Anyway the point is that proper feminism is really nothing more than a the struggle for equal rights between the sexes, a noble cause if you ask me.
Yes, it is the hijacking of the term that makes me refuse to use it. It's like labelling yourself with other terms like "religious/non-religious" "spiritual/non-spiritual" or even political terms like you mention - as soon as you call yourself that, hordes of people, who think they know exactly what that entails in your particular case, judge/criticize you. And most times, they are so far off the mark you might as well have used foreign slang to describe yourself.

In the case of that video, before I even watched it I asked myself, "If a man had made this video, did not label his channel "feminist", and said exactly the same things, how would it be received?" As soon as the term "feminist" is used, there is a knee-jerk reaction and the anti-feminists/ultra-chauvinists/intellectually swollen brains come running to dissect everything. I read through a bunch of the reddit comments, and it appeared to me that many of the commenters did not really listen to the entire video or were trying to put words in her mouth.

I especially liked the one list someone posted of what I guess they considered to be non-sexist games with female protagonists. I lol'ed... I don't know. Maybe it's like racism - if you haven't experienced it yourself, maybe you just don't spot all the obvious signs of prejudice. Yes, there's blatant sexism - "wilst thou play like a girl?" - and there's subtle sexism - armour which is actually just heavy underwire, "winter clothing" that wouldn't keep you warm on a summer night, chest bouncing and jiggling as if there were water babies living inside....
Let's not have equal sexism though, I don't want to see Knight from Trine running around shirtless and in a furry gitch a la Conan the Destroyer.

I'm not saying everything she said in the video was spot on, but I agree with the general message of it. (And yes, she'd have to be a lunatic to allow comments on her video after all that.) If it raises awareness, good.

Oryx Crake

8th March 2013, 09:33 PM

Yeah hehe I think you understand perfectly what I'm getting at. And as you say it is a bit like racism in the way that it's pretty much impossible to understand unless you are or have been the subject of something like it, which I suppose is why I hesitate to call myself a feminist too (even though I think it's easier for guys in some ways because some of the knee-jerk reactions don't really work, like the whole unshaved armpits, matrirachy-thing you're kind of forced to re-evaluate that thought because it's so tightly associated with women) because it does feel a bit phony for me to... I dunno use someone else's name... too many people have done that to score cheap points while not really meaning it.

However when you see stuff like: http://fatuglyorslutty.com/ or when you hear the stories that female friends tell you... or well in my case (which is a big reason for why I started getting more interested in all this) when your Mum or your girlfriend tell you **** that they have to endure virtually every day, I dunno I find it hard to put into words how angry that makes me... Still I can't know the feeling myself I only get tidbits or anecdotes, I think I'm starting to ramble a bit here. I dunno I just don't understand how any man who's ever had a mother he loved can honestly justify to himself how sexism is ok, or how certain obviously sexist things can be seen as not being sexist.

On the note of blatant sexism by the way some people, at least in swedish media, are arguing that we are kind of seeing men starting to get objectified a little bit in the same way that women are and that that somehow is making things better... I'm not entirely well read up on the arguments but in general from what I've read they say that it's essentially a needed first step or something.

I'm a little bit all over the place in my reasoning and thoughts here, I know that, so please excuse the messy nature of this response.

Darkdrium777

9th March 2013, 01:14 AM

I especially liked the one list someone posted of what I guess they considered to be non-sexist games with female protagonists. I lol'ed... I don't know. Maybe it's like racism - if you haven't experienced it yourself, maybe you just don't spot all the obvious signs of prejudice. Yes, there's blatant sexism - "wilst thou play like a girl?" - and there's subtle sexism - armour which is actually just heavy underwire, "winter clothing" that wouldn't keep you warm on a summer night, chest bouncing and jiggling as if there were water babies living inside....
Let's not have equal sexism though, I don't want to see Knight from Trine running around shirtless and in a furry gitch a la Conan the Destroyer.I suppose this (http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/19vcan/damsel_in_distress_part_1_tropes_vs_women_in/c8rqadw) is it? It was in reply to someone looking for games with well developed female protagonists as characters, while to a certain point disregarding the outfits they are dressed in.

And unfortunately this is where this sort of "transition period" hurts, because while you can have strong female leads to interest more intellectually inclined people, sex sells a ton more. It's unfortunate, but that is often why skimpy clothing is used. I don't agree with everything on his list, and I'm not sure I can agree with Bayonetta in particular (though I haven't played it), but he does have some valid titles in my opinion. Games like Mass Effect, BG&E, Street Fighter, Heavenly Sword, Portal have good female characters not dressed in sexy outfits (not all of them in SF, but some) and they do well in sales most of the time. Like I said though, compared to stupid stuff it's not even close sometimes. So if her videos can help change that then she has my vote, as long as she doesn't go full on extremist on the games.

Medusa

9th March 2013, 07:48 PM

Yes, that list. I should have clarified, I assumed (never assume, ha) that the list was supposed to be some kind of retort to the video, as if because of this small handful of games, things are okay in video-game-land. I didn't read every comment.
I agree with a bunch on his list too, but then there's the rest...^^ :?
The very fact someone felt obliged to (attempt to) post a valid list of games is what got me laughing in the first place. And just to clarify, I've no problem with sexy outfits. It's when they're (apparently) designed to objectify a human being that they make me think "sexist".
P.S. "well developed" :lol

Oryx, I definitely agree that men are being objectified more as well. Overall it would seem that the media is portraying people, regardless of gender, more as objects we may use for our own amusement rather than human beings we may have the honour of interacting with. :/

If each person respected every other person as their equal, regardless of sex, race, whatever, these discussions wouldn't even be raised. So for me, it boils down to respect for others, and how much disrespect we tolerate/encourage as individuals and as societies. I'd rather look at the big picture, but that's just me...

Darkdrium777

11th March 2013, 07:53 PM

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/index.php/2013/03/10/a-rebuttal-to-anita-sarkeesians-tropes-vs-women-episode-1-damsels-in-distress/

I tend to agree. These games are old. How about a critique of what is happening here and now instead?

Oryx Crake

11th March 2013, 09:16 PM

@dark: not that I particularly disagree with the points that that text is making as such but I also feel that as the writer her/himself notes " the first of what promises to be a long series of feminist critiques of depictions of women in gaming, or as she puts it", I'm thinking that it might be firstly a bit early to start trying to find things wrong with a series that has just about aired it's first episode.

Secondly: Sometimes I completely agree with the writer of your link that she doesn't take into account cultural differences, either because she doesn't understand they're there or because she doesn't care... whatever the case is however, a couple of points: the video doesn't only deal with japanese sexism in the 80s and 90s, it stretches into the 00s too and if I'm not completely off my mark even the 10s (particularly with the zelda franchise in mind) so I wouldn't say that her critique of the damsel in distress trope is entirely based on culturally insignificant content from 10-20 or 30 years ago. Also whether or not she mentions the socio-political context or not I think to a certain extent, especially at this early date in the series existence, that the conclusion the writer comes to that sometimes nothing is better than something is if not wrong then at least too hasty.
Again not that I completely disagree with everything the text you linked says (in fact I agree with quite a lot of what it says) but I'm thinking that perhaps coming to the conclusion that Anita Sarkeesian's series is so completely off the mark that it hurts more than helps is going too far when all we've seen is one episode out of what will probably be more than 20.
Also I'm not sure I completely understood the text on this point but it seems to me that what the writer is saying is that because it's a different culture that produced the content that is critiqued, that this should somehow excuse the sexism in it, even if just a bit. A point I definitely don't agree with, if that is in fact what the writer is saying of course.

I'm getting a bit long winded here but I should perhaps close up by just saying that I agree that the video in question lacks some context but the text you linked, reads to me, even though it makes some valid points, as an attempt to marginalize, vilify and ridicule what I hope will be something important for videogame culture, and although I expect there will be much I will disagree with in the coming videos (much like the writer of your linked text) I still think there will be some merit in the series.

amplificated

13th March 2013, 06:15 AM

Equality is a myth. When modern society does not understand the basics of reality, game developers are hardly the first place to look for shedding light on the places of gender roles in our world. They are all 2-bit philosophers at best; their entire set of ideals are borne of cheap Hollywood action dramas, or even more commonly these days: purely self-referential flavours of pop culture.

The entire argument of women in videogames being represented poorly is as ridiculous as videogames being taken seriously as an art form. Worthless discussion.

Darkdrium777

13th March 2013, 08:18 AM

amplificated

13th March 2013, 09:18 AM

Video games are bigger than Hollywood. As entertainment mediums go, the onus should now be on them to portray women more nicely than Hollywood since they have quite the large cultural influence. Hollywood shouldn't be allowed to do nothing of course, but video games aren't just a toy anymore and haven't been for a long while. It's an industry and is getting ingrained in culture.

Okay. Why should anyone give a damn about what any media form has to say about anything? This is a big problem in and of itself. Society of today actually looks up to the lifestyles they see in the movies. It shouldn't, just as much as it shouldn't be searching for life's answers in a video game. Which, you're right: are not toys anymore. They're now gambling primers, mostly.

I respectfully disagree with you even though you are being quite offensive to developers such as Jenova Chen and Jonathan Blow. That the main industry is driven by financial success does not mean games are incapable of being more than games.

Calling a game art because it doesn't adhere to traditional gameplay models or throws in a twist is rather delusional. I don't have a problem with the games, or the developers, if they're trying something new. But trying something new and demanding it be called art is just wrong, and a negative dilution for the ignorant masses to become further confused about. A VTOL aircraft was something new, once. Was it art? No, it's a goddamned design solution. Further, if your game includes a narrative: is the game the art form, or the story? I haven't played Journey, so I can't comment, but usually the story is quite separate from the "game". flOw however, I can level my opinion squarely on the "nowhere near art" side of the coin.

Shifts in society do not happen without shifts in art. You're taking me at a wrong time here (currently taking a course in Quebec literature) because the identity of the province I live in is all based on oral tradition and songs. These songs defined the cultural shifts that make us who we are today. One song even became what we sing instead of happy birthday.

Does a change in art change society, or is it the other way around? I'd also like to consider more variables, personally. Are computers an art form..? Pretty sure they changed society.

Are video games art? Not quite yet. Is there complete equality between women and men? Not yet. So it's worthless to have a discussion about it. When should we have this discussion then? I don't see these shifts happening without discussion. Magic isn't real.

My point is that videogames should not be the source which a discussion or evolution in society should be based on.

Are video games art? Not quite yet. Is there complete equality between women and men? Not yet.

Again, I declared equality a myth. That you seem to think it's a matter of time before everything is "equal" means I think you have some learning to do, whether you give a damn or not. Men & men and men & women and women & women are not equal.

Darkdrium777

13th March 2013, 08:33 PM

It shouldn'tBut it does, and that's the point. Since it does, and that doesn't look to be changing for the majority anytime soon, since it's been a huge influence throughout history (especially with the massive exportation of American culture), then it should propose more progressive values so that the influence is overall positive and benefits society.

A VTOL aircraft was something new, once.A VTOL or a computer are not forms of creative expression. Video games are. Comparing the two is frankly quite silly.
As for what would be art between the narrative, the visuals, the audio, etc., it would be the overall package. Just as a movie is a combination of a narrative, audio and visuals.

I'd also like to consider more variablesThere are other variables but it's a pretty significant one. The Renaissance wouldn't have happened without it, if you needed another example.

Men & men and men & women and women & women are not equal. So let's not even bother trying to make things as best as they can be. Got it.

UB3R~JKP

14th March 2013, 04:47 PM

The whole argument seems to be 'bawwwww Woman are over-sexualized', yeah because Nathan Drake looks like a total geek right?

MegaGeeza22

14th March 2013, 09:03 PM

You either get curvey women in skimpy underwear or huge men with muscles in tight pants... i think its basically equal? But i believe you get a few insecure people who dont like to see it and it creates a divide that the media love to jump on because it makes a good story. Sexism is so stupid these days because in my opinion women wear the trousers lol and all the men i know are so under the thumb its laughable. I got called sexist a few years ago by my friends bird... She complained and said that women should have the same rights as men and i totally agreed with her! I said so if there was a war and the government called all 18-30 year old women to fight as soldiers would you fight? She said of course not! Thats a mans job... I lolled and called her a sexist. Sexism will never go away and seeing members of the opposite sex as a sex symbol will also never change... No matter how many layers of clothes they are wearing. If we didn't think this way we would of been extinct a long time ago. We are equal.

Medusa

15th March 2013, 01:23 AM

I thought of writing something detailed here, but in the interests of avoiding further facepalms on my forehead I decided: 1-Not to bother, and 2-Just oversimplify, since that makes everything okay.
So, oversimplified - Equality is an ideal, not a "myth", the same way that justice is an ideal. To stop striving for something because it has not been achieved is completely illogical.
- Globally, women are raped, beaten, murdered, and abused in myriad other ways far more often than men. The staggering statistics are the reason why equality between the sexes tends to be discussed as regards to women's rights and not men's.

Darkdrium, kudos to you for attempting to keep logic alive. I think you win the "most patient poster" award.

Oryx Crake

15th March 2013, 03:32 AM

I was going to write something along the lines of what you said, medusa... however you said it first, so let's just add my thoughts to it.

not just across the world are women not in any way shape or form in equal standing to men, but also in our countries in what we like to think of as the developed western world is there no such thing as equality as of this moment. Not a single country in the world is gender equal, women collectively are, as a rule undervalued, underpayed, and underrepresented as well as overworked, overpassed and abused. It isn't as bad in the western world but it is by no means equal. Just to give you an idea of what the actual numbers say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Gender_Gap_Report but apart from the numbers, if you are male ask any of your female friends who use the internet often how much abuse and mysogeny they have to suffer and compare it to yourself and I pretty much guarantee you that you'll be surprised or shocked even at how big a difference there is.

I don't know about you but I will not have my mother, or my friends or a potential future girlfriend be treated any worse than I am.

MegaGeeza22

15th March 2013, 03:12 PM

I have to agree with you both, i cant argue with the facts and good points that you raised, i wasn't thinking outside of the box with my comment, i was just thinking of gaming and my own personal view on sexism... Religion is a factor in some reasons why women are treated terribly in some country's but i wont go down that road on this forum.

bpinflag

17th March 2013, 04:05 AM

I can never shy away from a debate... so here goes:
I've always thought that amongst all human beings in general, it will be impossible for us to be naturally equal to one another. That is why there were winners and losers in the Omnium tourney, we were all different, so how does this relate to gender? Females and Males both biologically have different programing. Males were responsible for hunting early in human history, hence they are normally stronger than woman. Woman on the other hand, raised the children, thus giving them a very protective mindset. No humans will ever be truly 'equal,' because we are all have different genetic coding. The only way to change this is... well... read the book Brave New World. Therefore, there is a fundamental problem with the whole concept of equality.
What is possible though, is woman and males having an equal opportunity to succeed in our Western civilization(s). You can never stop males from raping unless you castrate all of them, it is natural for males to want 'do it.' Unfortunately some men are no more than animals, and choose not to control their desires. We as beings, males and females, must accept we would be in the moral wrong to harm an innocent human, which applies to both males being neutered, (if you may) and females being raped.
Equality in society? I don't want to achieve it, it would greatly inflict on my natural rights as a human by forcing me to be just like everyone else. Equal chance to succeed for both men and woman? Let's do it. There is no reason that a woman should receive less pay than what a man does doing the exact same job. Those who are capable should be able to succeed.

Oryx Crake

17th March 2013, 06:29 AM

gender equality has never been about claiming that women and men are genetically the same, it's only about an equal chance to succeed, equal pay for equal amounts of work and equal protection under the law.

I gotta tell you though I have never felt the compulsion to rape anyone, in fact the thought alone disgusts me. Not only men rape people either, and while we might not be able to eliminate rape forever, we can at least recognize in law and society how vile and despicable it is, and punish those who do it appropriately.

I think perhaps we use the word 'equal' a bit differently, when I say that we are all equal as humans I mean that we are all worth equally as much as human beings, none of us are above the law and we are all to be accorded the same respect, rights and privileges, no matter what our race, our gender or our creed.

bpinflag

17th March 2013, 09:16 AM

I have never had the impulse to rape anyone either, the thought is repulsive. I agree with you though, just wanted to make sure we all understand what 'gender equality' really means.
I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate though, and bring to mind that if we do punish rape, it needs to be for girls raping guys too (yes, I have heard of it, although it is super rare I believe) Both genders have to have fair punishment in a society where we want to create this idea of equality, and I doubt anyone really disagrees.
A bit redundant to say that, but when I debate things I like to emphasize clarity. Anyways, being American, I feel like this should have always been this way in the U.S. I mean it IS nation that was founded on freedom, liberty, equality. Shouldn't the American culture in particular embrace this idea instead of being the worlds #1 porn producer? Perverse is it not? I hate seeing my nations morals crumble around me.

Oryx Crake

19th March 2013, 05:31 PM

punishment for rape should of course be completely equal, and much more severe than what it is now, for example it drives me up the walls that embezzling a couple thousand dollars is punished more severely than premeditated sexual assault. As for morals and such, well if you ask me whatever moral codec you follow you have to balance all the things you stand for and there will be contradictions. The case you mention for example, you could say you have to balance your ideals about gender equality and also your views on people getting payed for sex, against your thoughts on free speech and free enterprise and so on... a tricky proposition to say the least. Whatever conclusion you come to the most important thing if you ask me is to have a conversation about and to think about it.