Racemodes for SlipStream GX

[docfo4r]

Hey guys. Now since we have our own subforum for SSGX thanks to Hellfire, we want to make the most possible use out of it. There is one pending question in the room for quite a long time: Racemodes!

We actually have a bunch of racemodes which will definately make the cut. These are:
Single Race
Tournament
Time Trial
Speed Lap
Endurance A single race with 15 laps
Head To Head Race against one AI enemy [needed for campaign story]
Zone Unlike WO, a track will be generated while racing and random cornerings etc. will be added up. Normal race tracks won't get converted into a Zone track.

Actually these are quite a few modes already but we would like to include something fresh aswell. So if you have ideas for fancy race modes, post them here. No rating intended as of now, just collecting ideas. We might create a poll later on. Also keep in mind we could simply add our well known "Eliminator" mode but maybe there are some bright ideas here which we like to collect ;)

[phaeton_pl]

I found "License" mode in Gran Turismo very helpful for learning tracks and game physics and i was always thinking about this game mode in WOHD. Those short tests were very challenging and i'm sure they could work out pretty well in WOHD. Imagine a series of short quests like:
- fly through second corner on Chenghou Project forward on phantom speed without scratching a wall,
- hit perfect Lap on supersonic speed on Anulpha Pass (flying start just before starting line at supersonic speed),
- do a double BR on Metropia Reverse before mag strip,
- beat time of 32:00 on Anulpha Venom without barrel rolls
- fly some part of the track under xx seconds
- many more possible, if you know Gran Turismo License game mode you know what i'm talking about

This could be the way to unlock higher speed classes or ships.

I hope you understand what i'm talking about :)

[docfo4r]

Hmm that actually reminds me on the PS3 trophy system to be honest :D Since we will also have achievements, we already have things like "beat a lap time of" or "don't scratch the wall" ;)

But these things describe only tiny extra tasks, mainly made in single races or time trials. What we're actually looking for is a complete new race mode [doesn't need to be something from the Wipeout universe].

[phaeton_pl]

If you are looking for a completely new race mode why not consider "Green Races"? 8 players, BR's on, unlimited energy and only turbos in weapon pads :)

[docfo4r]

Definately a cool idea :D

Could be called something like "Turbo mode" [of course not xD]

[dreadofmondays]

I like the concept of calling it a Green Race :)

[docfo4r]

Vegetarian mode xD

[JABBERJAW]

Not sure if this would be a mode, but in regular races or time trials, maybe have every 10 seconds of not touching the wall result in a 1% speed increase. Over the course of a 2 minute race, you could increase 12%. This would reward perfect driving, and discourage hitting the walls in areas where is may be beneficial ( I'm thinking HD here). If you hit, maybe should lose either ALL or half of the speed that you have built up. So if you built up 4% in the first 40 seconds then hit a wall, either lose the entire 4 % or half of what you have gained by perfect driving. Maybe an option called " perfect racing" or something like that

[amplificated]

Just a voice of concern; I think Endurance has the potential to be quite dull unless the capacity for tactical assessment is possible (e.g. pit stops, something else, be imaginative). Merely making a single race last for 15 laps is useless: if someone can win in the standard number of laps reliably, what's the point of making them go through 15?
Also, I know you guys aren't professional devs and this project and the experience it's giving you as coders/etc. is for your own benefit primarily; but for players, Zone in WO works because you know the layout - it requires skill, reflexes, and knowledge. Making it impossible to know the layout means getting far will ultimately depend almost purely on the luck of the random track generator making it easy or not. If you want to stick with your current plan, I wouldn't count on "getting the high score" being its most fun aspect unless you're appealing to the kind of players who really like grinding (that's literally all you'd ever be doing in the mode as you've described it), so I'd look at making sure it's still fun in other ways beyond the basic "it gets faster" theme.

Regardless, have fun with your project :)

Edit:
I should add, from the few videos I've seen, the handling of the game looks different to that of any WipEout I've played. Perhaps you can describe what is possible as it stands, what is on the agenda if your gameplay model isn't yet completed, and maybe provide a video to show as an example? As it is I think there could be some confusion - people could expect the same gameplay as X WipEout, we don't know if BR's are possible, etc.. You need to be able to help yourselves by letting us provide suggestions which you can actually work with.

[Temet]

@amplificated : We unfortunately see a BR in the trailer.
For the gameplay, no problem if it's different from recent WipEouts... I just hope it will be really fast, and if the trailer was in real speed, it looks like it is :)

EDIT : I like the idea of Jabberjaw!

[docfo4r]

Yeah, barrel rolls and side shifts work just like in wipeout, same for airbreaks. I only played HD but Xpand described the handling to be a mix of Pure and HD.

About the zone mode: Yeah, we also discussed this thing as it would be way too difficult if you have a normal track [as narrow as the standard, colors, objects remain the same] to be generated. Our Zone mode will work a bit different. It's called "Zone" but it's another challenge. On Wipeout, the Zone mode works because you know the layout of the track. The SSGX zone mode is purely based on reflexes. You won't reach Zone 100 [in our case, it's counted in "segments", so say Segment 100] so easily. Maybe the limit is lower.
But as a matter of fact: The Zone mode might be divided into levels: The easy part on low speed contains segments which are quite narrow. If you get faster, segments will be generated which are handleable for the speed. Also we either make the colors of the segments differ for each level you are in or color it to indicate corners. A red segment could contain a sharper corner than a green segment. There will be no full landscape around the track, it would actually look like a computer animation, although sometimes billboards or other small objects will be generated here and there. This way you have a much clearer view of what is coming ahead of you. Also, another idea is that she ship speed increases not too fast, and we only have a certain number or segments loaded at a time. One new segment becomes generated infront of you, the one at the other end of the track disappears. So if you are too slow [too many wall collissions] and you are on the last segment when it disappears, you will fall off the track, session over.

The Endurance can of course be a bit boring. Actually we need a racemode like this in the story at one point [unlike Wipeout, SSGX campaign will have a little bit of a story]. We make sure it's not on venom speed ;) But I have to admit I for myself also played 15 lap races online on HD and it is quite fun, because at one point the field becomes messy, with overlaping going on etc. Anyway, you won't find the Endurance too often, so it should be fine :)

I hope this clears up some question for you guys.
Now go ahead :D

[Xpand]

Just to voice that how much we try to get the physics like WO's it's always going to be an aproximation, though so far it's a pretty good one.

[Ace3000]

But as a matter of fact: The Zone mode might be divided into levels: The easy part on low speed contains segments which are quite narrow. If you get faster, segments will be generated which are handleable for the speed. Also we either make the colors of the segments differ for each level you are in or color it to indicate corners. A red segment could contain a sharper corner than a green segment. There will be no full landscape around the track, it would actually look like a computer animation, although sometimes billboards or other small objects will be generated here and there. This way you have a much clearer view of what is coming ahead of you. Also, another idea is that she ship speed increases not too fast, and we only have a certain number or segments loaded at a time. One new segment becomes generated infront of you, the one at the other end of the track disappears. So if you are too slow [too many wall collissions] and you are on the last segment when it disappears, you will fall off the track, session over.

That would be interesting, I would love to see this!

[docfo4r]

Yeah me too. But actually we did not program a single bit of a Zone mode yet.
We are not sure if we should go with the classic Zone mode from Wipeout or maybe create something fresh and new. The downside on the Wipeout Zone mode in SSGX is that our tracks weren't intented to be Zone tracks when creating them, it could be difficult at higher speeds to stay on the road on certain tracks and also, you guys should not expect all those equalizer and visual music effects like we know from HD.

So yeah, what are your ideas and opinions? Classic zone mode? Random generated tracks zone mode? Create special zone tracks? Or maybe overthink the whole "zone" thing and come up with something new...

[JFthebestJan]

i don`t know if you are planning to implement an online/LAN multiplayer feature?

as a game mode i would suggest to copy the "X-CUP" from "F-ZERO X". that is a 6 race tournament with every track randomly created by the game.

do you planning to support other controller devices as gamepads? force feedback racing wheels anyone? i used to play F-ZERO X again recently. this time with an emulator and force feedback wheel support, ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!!!!

[Temet]

Xpand, I'm not able to guess myself if it's possible, hard or not... but would it be possible to have an option like "classic gameplay / modern gameplay"?

Modern gameplay : BR, SS, and airbrakes like "please turn more when I press"
Classic gameplay : no BR, no SS and airbrakes like "I can move the big ass of my ship and I really need to brake in advance of the turn". Maybe Al, as an XL lover and whose native langage is English could explain better than me, if he likes the idea of course.

It's just ... I've been playing XL with Asa this week end... and going back to modern WipEout really does not feel that good.

[Xpand]

I don't think it's too hard to make a "switch" for that. I asked Damian (zero3growlithe) and he told me he could change the drag values of the ship through a script so... I guess that might be possible, but not now...

[Temet]

Of course I know it's not the priority at the moment.
But still, thanks for considering my request, maybe for a DLC :-D

[Xpand]

DLC? The game is not going to be done in the next week! lol
When I said not now I meant in this near future. May be added when we get the menus working and start placing all the definitive options.

[AG-SYSTEMS]

So yeah, what are your ideas and opinions? Classic zone mode? Random generated tracks zone mode? Create special zone tracks? Or maybe overthink the whole "zone" thing and come up with something new...
Classic Zone mode, and Random Zone mode in my opinion. It's a good mix.

(None of the non-zone tracks in the Official Wipeouts were built for Zone Mode anyway.:g)

[Temet]

Wrong!
In WipEout Pure Pro Tozo, Mallavol, Coridon 12, Syncopia are tracks only available for zone mode.
Some of them are also available in Wipeout HD for zone mode only also.

[amplificated]

About the zone mode... On Wipeout, the Zone mode works because you know the layout of the track. The SSGX zone mode is purely based on reflexes. You won't reach Zone 100 [in our case, it's counted in "segments", so say Segment 100] so easily. Maybe the limit is lower.

Play this game. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/reaction_version5.swf)Get back to me when you grow tired of it.

What you're proposing is this, but with a random barrier to success - that may fool people into thinking it has depth, but I don't think it will be a legitimate draw. I think you need to change your idea of Zone mode - maybe call it something else as it has very little to do with Zone in WO anyway - and also provide an interesting mechanism that allows people to find a way to prepare a little; and I think you or maybe someone else in this thread can come up with a better idea than changing the colours of the upcoming track between red and green. Also, I think something other than an ever increasing speed would be preferable - perhaps something synchonised with the track or otherwise tempo-driven. Ever-increasing speed just seems unnecessary for what you're trying to do.


The Endurance can of course be a bit boring. Actually we need a racemode like this in the story at one point [unlike Wipeout, SSGX campaign will have a little bit of a story]. We make sure it's not on venom speed ;) But I have to admit I for myself also played 15 lap races online on HD and it is quite fun, because at one point the field becomes messy, with overlaping going on etc. Anyway, you won't find the Endurance too often, so it should be fine :)

I was merely providing suggestions to improve it, which is what I thought this thread was about. If it's available from a racebox-like menu, I don't think it would get used very often, and I think games are things people should want to play.

[Colonel]

What if Endurance Mode was 15 laps, with no Absorb, Shield or Pits functions, and particularly vicious AI? You could make it so that just to survive 15 laps is a feat in itself. That wouldn't be boring IMO if it was well executed.

In fact reading that back, it would maybe be a nod towards the sadly lost Zombie Mode from 2048 :)

[docfo4r]

@Colonel: Yeah, the Endurance mode might be changed up compared to Single Race regarding pickups and their functions. In fact there is some sort of unsuspected surprise coming up during the Endurance event on the campaign but we can't unveil anything yet. Let's just say that we need the Endurance mode anyways, and we'll see how we include this mode into the Racebox.

@amp: Obviously there are people who like it and people who don't. I for myself have never been a fan of Time Trials but I understand that this is a race mode which should be available in every racing game. Regarding Zone: Well I can't see how you can compare an AG racing game with a 2D browser mouse click game. Maybe this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lNZnQv3NOA)would be a better comparsion. Of course we wouldn't have this objects on the track but the track itself is what is the challenge.. Well, I wrote about it before...

Anyways, regarding Zone or whatever. Maybe try to think a bit outside of the Wipeout universe. What interesting race modes to other racing games have? Let's try to invent a new idea. If nothing helps, we still can create Zone tracks for the classic Zone mode and that's it. But I believe that we are more creative than that ;)


I was merely providing suggestions to improve it, which is what I thought this thread was about.
Hmm no this thread should be about collecting new ideas at first place :)

[dreadofmondays]

Hmm no this thread should be about collecting new ideas at first place :)
Isn't that what suggestions are? xD

[docfo4r]

I was referring to the "improve" part ;)

[Oryx Crake]

You could have a mode in which you are constantly losing health and in order to stay alive you have to do certain things to get healthboosts
like say... take a corner perfectly or run over an energy pad and you are constantly rewarded for playing well by not dying
and the longer you play the faster your shield drains, or the worse your handling gets and so on and so forth.

- - - Updated - - -

You could have a mode in which you are constantly losing health and in order to stay alive you have to do certain things to get healthboosts
like say... take a corner perfectly or run over an energy pad and you are constantly rewarded for playing well by not dying
and the longer you play the faster your shield drains, or the worse your handling gets and so on and so forth.

[amplificated]

That sounds suspiciously like Zone.

[docfo4r]

In our team chat we came up with the idea of "Platformer".

The player's ship speed increases by time passing. The difference to Zone: It will be done on a set of special tracks. If you crash into the wall, that part of the wall disappears. So the more crashes, the less barriers the walls have. If you fall off the track, the session is over. We are also thinking if the player should loose health automatically, like 1% each 10th second and can fill up health by perfect laps [10%] or crossing speed pads [3%]. This way we force the using of speed pads a bit more, which can be thrilling by higher speeds.

Now the question we asked ourself is: Do you like this idea? Should we include this idea as a replacement of Zone or should we also use classic Zone races on these tracks? Note that "Zone" and "Platformer" have great equality.

Or do you guys have more ideas for the Platformer mode?

[Rotational_aspect]

I'm not sure if it would work, but why not have this for a mode:

It would be similar to a speedlap, but after about 6 or so seconds a Quake is detonated. If it catches you, the race ends. The quake is slightly faster than the player, so the player must use all speedpads otherwise its game over. The longer you survive, the more points you get. I imagined the player getting a speedboost each lap, so they can either use it for speed, or sacrifice it for energy if they are doing barrel rolls / recovering from damage.

I am not sure if it could be realised, but its an idea.

By the way, the Platform mode sounds great. Simple concept, but sounds really challenging and fun.

[AG-SYSTEMS]

Wrong!
In WipEout Pure Pro Tozo, Mallavol, Coridon 12, Syncopia are tracks only available for zone mode.
Some of them are also available in Wipeout HD for zone mode only also.

Thanks for reminding me about those.

@docfo4r-I really want to make a comment, but I can't put the words together.

[docfo4r]

Just give it a go and I will try to encrypt your message then :D

[AG-SYSTEMS]

(Here goes.)

It was a good idea to put this variation of zone mode as a different mode. It's quite different, being little like the standard zone.

[docfo4r]

Oh hehe yeah I get you. Yeah well it seems like many people like to have the classic Zone mode available, others like to see some improvement. So yeah, maybe it's best to place both into the game.

Single Race, Speed Lap, Time Trial, Endurance, Tournament, Zone, Platformer, Head To Head

That would make 8 different race modes. Actually a lot already :D Main stuff from Wipeout in it and Head To Head, Endurance and Platformer would be some extensions ;) Actually I am pretty satisfied with that. And I think too many modes would be confusing at some point. So yeah, I like this list.

[Richochet]

Actually I think zone mode isn't as much of a problem as one may think. I don't think the tracks in WO were necessarily designed with Zone in mind. Zone in WO has your ship is stuck to the track (maglocked) for almost the whole time even when it isn't in the default track configuration. So in other words, if you just follow WO then you should be able to stay on the tracks in ssgx because your ship won't be allowed to leave the track except at certain points (jumps) just like in WO.

[docfo4r]

Yeah, we are also still discussing this theme. But basically, one thing I can say is that the problem isn't a hill or a jump where you take off the track, but the basic layout. For example: Our tracks seems to be more narrow than the ones in WO and we have some tracks, Nazca Remains and I think Alphard and Hubian aswell, where you are on the limits of turning degree in certain corners on phantom speed. I mean, if the ship would be faster, you simply can't make the turn any more without crashing into the wall or falling off the track. If we would simply make this track available for Zone this way, it would not be fun because you just can't do perfect laps any more after a certain speed and eventually destroy your ship a few laps later, no matter how skilled you are.

But as you might have noticed, in WOHD, the faster the ship travelles, the more agile it becomes, you can make sharper turns. So what we need to do is to change ship physics the faster you go. This is something we need to test out. If it works nice and if we feel that a Zone mode on our normal track is fun and not frustrating, we'll think of including these tracks as Zone tracks aswell.

But for now, we decided to create 5 special tracks designed for Zone and Platformer. We anyway need special tracks for Platformer. The designs won't be like the normal tracks [located on earth, with proper landscape] but more like computer simulated locations which belong to certain areas of the game. For example, we will have "Monochrome" which represents an ambience which you can see in the intro animation on our website, or we have "Electrogrid" which resembles the ambience of the pickup animation videos. Another one is up in the sky and will have a Sol2 - feeling and so on. This way we can not only design a track which is really fun to race in Zone mode, but also we can include visual effects much easier, maybe music equalizers like in WOHD. And when the player beats the campaign mode with every team or something like this, we think about the achievement to unlock these certain tracks for normal races aswell.

So yeah, once we have one of these tracks ready and tested Zone ship physics over there, we will test and decide about it on normal race tracks aswell.

[Richochet]

It's nice to see so much thought is going into this, I do have a question though. Even on custom zone tracks won't you still need to address the issue about not being able to make turns at the faster zones? Of course, in tracks specifically designed for zone this won't be a problem as quickly, but it is inevitable that it will become an issue at some speed threshold. In other words, the agility adjustment as speed increases will be necessary regardless of whether the track is a default track or specifically designed for zone. Regardless of whether or not default tracks are used in zone though I'm sure it will be fun!

For the campaign mode do you have any plans in particular? Campaign in WipEout has always been the most disappointing aspect of the games for me since it's basically a bunch of "challenges". Pretty much all my enjoyment comes from TTs and SLs. The one major improvement for WipEout that I've always wanted to see was some kind of career mode. Something where you could start at the bottom and work your way up to race for a major team. The reveal of the "street racer" has piqued my interest since it seems like this could be hinting at a career mode like this. Is it too early to say?

Anyway, great work on this project. The demo is amazing! Best of luck!

[docfo4r]

Thanks for your kind words.
And yeah, you are right. We need to have realtime adjusted ship physics in Zone mode anyways. Without too much of a rush, I am trying to create a basic layout for the Electrogrid Zone track right now to have a testing area set up asap.

We have a basic idea about the campaign mode. I'll just type it down here:
We have 8 teams. Each team holds it's own grid, a series of events. But before even getting there, the player needs to get a higher status so the teams are interested in signing a contract. He can do so by winning 4 events in a row on Porto Kora. All ships will be the street racer... The Thruster ST-116 which you can see in the recent demo. We also have another big surprise for you what you really wouldn't expect in an AG racer, but we won't unveil that yet :D
Anyways, once you beat those events, you can sign a contract with one of the 8 teams. From then on, you will go through all the teams grids in a row, also the grid of your own team. This means, you can't change the ship for the rest of the campaign. Each team grid holds a couple of events. Winning one event unlocks another one and so on. Usually you have the choice between two or up to five events at one time in the certain team grid. Eventually you will get to the final event, the "Head To Head" race. In this event you will race against the prototype ship of the certain team [the team of the current grid]. If you win this event, you will unlock the prototype ship for the racebox and you will have access to the next team grid.
With progressing through the game, the events on each team grid become more and more, and the challenges will be harder.

So yeah, as you can see, we have a little improvement comparing to WipEout. Still we didn't create one particular big storyline for the campaign mode. But yeah, creating the campaign is one of the last tasks, so there might be some changes still :)

[rdmx]

Unless the handling is identical between crafts, being locked to a team choice for the entire game is a BAD idea.

[Oryx Crake]

you can actually switch at any point but all the teams have their own individual campaigns and events, so you can't finish the cen-r campaign with the ifreet or vice versa but you'll still be able to play the different teams whenever you like, the campaign is just a series of team specific challenges, much like you had in wo2097/XL

[GalacticSpartan]

For a suggestion for a mode, I call it "Rack-em-up".

The objective is simple. You race but ahead of you is some small crafts, small as in not the size of the craft. You grab weapons and can be limited to like rockets, missles, cannon or other medium like weapons (no defensive or limited power weapons). They can be in 4 colors. White can be normaly sped up crafts. They would also have like a very weak shield ( 1 shot, 1 kill) and would be worth 1 point. Red brands have a somewhat stronger shield and can only fire a rocket or a small amounts of fire of a cannon from behind but not as accurate.. Those can be worth 2 points. Green ones have a stronger shield as well but are rare to find. The con is that they can fire mines. They can be worth 3 points. A gold one, which is more shielded and is very rare; can fire cannon, a rocket or some mines. They'll be worth 5 points.

An option for you could be that if you do get hit, the bots will slow down till you catch up or just simply try to catch up without assistance. Laps count from the designated class you pick.

Its just an idea I had from the top of my head lol. And I think it could be a nice addition to the game modes.