Removal of FEISAR Prototype (Speed Lap) scores

[Ami Nakajima]

Afternoon everyone

I have received multiple messages concerning scores on the Speed Lap Leaderboards from those who have gained top scores using the FEISAR Prototype ship exploit.

Though the guys here at the studio have fixed the exploit itself, many scores remain in the Top 8 for almost every track and speed class. This is something that many people feel to be unfair as they are unable to beat those times and gain a place in the top 8 - a view shared by us all at studio.

Instead of removing the scores, we felt it should be put forward to a poll here and set this post as the first of many possible in the future. Depending on it's outcome all FEISAR Prototype scores would be removed or remain on the boards.

It's a simple yes or no vote but I'd love to get a conversation going and hear why you have chosen to vote in favor or against the removal

- Nak

[leungbok]

Cool to see some concern on this issue from the devs :)
I personnaly have some top eight scores on various speed laps or time trials using legitly the feisar prototype but i'm for the removal of all the top eight times with that ship (except maybe if possible, the times on A+ class and for slower classes on empire climb and sol where the exploit is useless ;)). It's annoying but top pilots should be able to equalise their previous records !

[Ami Nakajima]

Exactly :+
Pilots who are good enough to be up there but cannot gain those places (due to unbeatable scores) deserve to be given the opportunity to make it. We didn't want to simply remove all FEISAR Prototype scores from the boards without asking or letting you know, that's why I posted here. It's important to get both sides of the argument before we do anything.
If this ends in a vote to keep the scores, we'll keep the scores.

[kaori]

Wow I'll lose my time on Metro Park Speed Lap Class B, not sure I will be able to improve it :frown:
All my times are legit, but if we have to choose the same rule for all players, let's go, delete all the record with FEISAR prototype, on all class, in Speed Lap and Time Trial too, on 8 tracks except Sol and Empire Climb of course, because the glitch was useless on this track (with a jump before the finishline, you could't go back).

I wonder how after the removal, you will be able to reject an old glitched time. Will you delete all our Feisar prototypes times on our memory card with a future update ?
Because if a player have a glitched time he is not able to improve legitimately, can he appear in the leaderboards with a slower time or he must to improve ? It doesn't concern me but I know there are some good players who try the glitch on a few tracks. They shouldn't update their times but you can understand they did it for some reasons.

Lastly, I imagine there will be a few people able to delete the updates, start the game with 1.00 version, do some glitched records, and try to update them later. Have you think about that ?

Whatever happens, thanks for sharing your reflections.

[Temet]

I'm in, delete them!

A big thank for asking the community about this topic! :clap

[Ami Nakajima]

Leaderboard records are server based so it'd be a case of taking the servers down for a while to remove the scores and putting them back up minus every FEISAR Prototype Lap Time.
If you have a glitched time or legitimate FEISAR Prototype score we won't need to delete anything from your card. Saved scores won't be re-uploaded by the game, you will have to create new records


I'm in, delete them!

A big thank for asking the community about this topic! :clap

No worries Temet. May this be the first of many :+

[stin]

I`m all for it, just delete them and I will start again.

stevie:)

[hunterx848]

I voted for yes cuz its fair. But I had no idea its an exploit... can someone explain please?

btw its awesome to see a dev around here

[newtype]

Any form of cheating or taking advantage of an exploit to improve one's time should be dealt with. I'm all for this.

[Oryx Crake]

I might've misinterpreted the poll question a little but I've learned to trust Leungbok's judgement in these situations and if possible I would suggest removing the times in the speed classes where the exploit makes it impossible to post top 8 record times without it but allowing them to stay where beating them without the exploit is possible... This because I feel that there should be as little changes made to leader boards as possible. since they are after all meant to be a record of the pilots' (a-ha) exploits in the game. So long as actually getting a world record is still in fact possible without "cheating" that is.

Any way that made me vote no as I understood the question to mean removal of ALL records using the feisar prototype thingy.

[Hellfire_WZ]

That is what it means. I see where you're coming from, but the problem for me is where do you draw the line? Initially I was thinking along the lines of removing all FEISAR prototype times down the the first one that isn't a FEISAR prototype. But then what if that one time is followed by another load of exploited times? It's impossible to tell an exploited time from a legit time with this ship and I don't believe exploited times should have any place on the boards, as they take the place of someone who deserves to be there by legitimate means, even if this is outside the top 8. It does unfortunately mean taking off legit times, but at the end of the day they can be repeated.


...But I had no idea its an exploit... can someone explain please?

As it's been fixed I may as well explain it for those of you who don't know. Before it was fixed, crossing the line for the first time at the start of a SL or TT event did not count as a new lap. Because of this, people were turning round and filling up the speed meter on the FEISAR prototype before starting. As the meter did not reset, they could run the first lap at full speed.

[leungbok]

My feeling too, i own a legit record on metro park time trial A without the glitch, followed by soa booney still legit and several known glitchers, we all used feisar prototype, so my point is rid them all (legit & unlegit), it's more simple.

[Oryx Crake]

yeah I by no means assume or think that everyone will share my point of view in fact I'm wavering a bit myself but yeah whatever happens happens. I'm just happy SL are paying attention to the boards, seemingly as much as the players are.

[mangaroo]

I'm just happy SL are paying attention to the boards, seemingly as much as the players are.

Same, I think this is pretty fantastic to communicate here sometimes, welcome!

Also I would agree with removing all of them if they can't be distinguished from legit times. This is unfortunate for the legit players but I think a lot will agree with hellfire, leungbok etc that it will be worth having them cleaned from the boards.* I was put off seeing the ship everywhere and was pretty suspicious but never knew about the exploit. Thanks for the explanation Hellfire clears a lot up!

*it will be fair to the rest you know, gives everyone more of a chance to get decent and legit times. The ship is quite a tough one but hell if you are a fan you can do it again! Might appreciate the bump on all the other times too hah - may be a bit biased as I didn't use the ship very much - and if there was no other "total time" info being sent in those leader board stats it would be impossible to distinguish I think.

[HunterGreg8]

it bothers me that all Feisar prototype scores be deleted . I have several legitimate scores with this ship and I spent a lot of time. The only circuit in A + which the Feisar prototype is useful is capital reach, my time is legitimate and that of mad-ice too. So I ask you not to delete Feisar prototype scores in A +. But I find it really unfair that legitimate time is erased because of cheaters. Some people haven't time to remake scores that they already spent a lot of time ...

Moreover, there is a glitch on metro park. In A+ class Airrionsmith did 17.10 while the world record is 33.68 ...

thank you for asking our opinion ;)

[multibodydynamics]

Cheaters have already destroyed all Feisar Prototype entrys in the record lists because legit times and cheater times can not be told apart. I vote yes to delete all Feisar Prototype entrys in Speedlap and Time Trial and start fresh. Top players can always remake or improve their entrys.

[HunterGreg8]

They can do it again, but do they have time for that?
It's easy to say "they can do it again" but for example I would not have time to redo them. Because of my studies, from September it will be a difficult year for me. All I ask is not to erase the scores Feisar Prototype A +.

[leungbok]

Just to see his name on top of the rankings don't justify to keep the leaderboards with glitched times. Everybody knows your skills, but for those that can't make a WR but maybe can reach a top 8 time, it's necessary to rid off the glitchers !!

[kaori]

We can do a data base with our legit times with these ship for our information, but I think it's important for entire community, not only hard fans.

[JABBERJAW]

Sorry, voted no, but meant yes, delete them. However, almost every time on A + will be dominated by the ag sys speed, which is the easiest to control ship, but the fastest overall. Even on the easiest course, the fastest rated ship with the hardest to control steeringpiranha speed doesn't stand a chance, even if piloted perfectly.

A couple solutions:

You could always just add a 2% speed boost to all ships on all speeds, and that would take care of the glitches times, old records that were added would still be beaten by the increased speed on the ships, and people wouldn't be able to restart their system to get the faster glitches races for records, then join again with new glitches times. The 2% boost would only be downloadable after logging on, so you would not be able to use the original game without the glitch fix download.

Add a turbo to each lap. This would give the neccessary speed to beat any glitches times, and give some more of the classic play. Also, once the turbo fix is downloaded, there would be no way to use the glitch of the original game

[HunterGreg8]

Just to see his name on top of the rankings don't justify to keep the leaderboards with glitched times. Everybody knows your skills, but for those that can't make a WR but maybe can reach a top 8 time, it's necessary to rid off the glitchers !!

I'm not saying that to see my name at the top of the rankings. I'm ok to lose wr and good times, because I know the top 8 are glitched (not my scores) . In a + there is only the capital reach's top eight concerned, and I think the top 8 is legit, and yes I have spent time on this score that the top 8 I think is legit, so I 'have the right to request SL to not delete it. I do not penalize anyone saying that because I think the top 8 legit. If someone thinks that a top is legit I'm not going to blame her because he did not want it to be deleted. stop saying that I'm an egoist who wants to see his name at the top of the rankings. I just want the a+ scores will not erased because I think they are legitimate, and I agree to lose my other scores because I know their tops are glitched. I said: "So I ask you not to delete Feisar prototype scores in A +" and not "so i ask you not to delete feisar prototype scores"

What I meant is that I do not agree with the argument "They can do it again" because some scores demanded a lot of time and effort that we don't have necessarily. I took my case as an example, although I'm ok for most of my proto feisar's time be deleted even if I will not have time to redo them.

[mangaroo]

While I trust your opinion on the top 8, I can imagine a lot of A+ feisar prototype times that ranked lower that are bug-assisted and many people would appreciate having them removed. If it was possible to remove all the times then manually add the top 8 for capital reach that may be fairer -- but I imagine the line between deleting and saving times like that would seem slightly too arbitrary for SL..? As in, it is easy for a person to trust to you, but more complicated and difficult for a company to, as they will be responsible for everyone's happiness if you know what I mean - especially without a way to verify them themselves.

Not sure I like the turbo idea! Of course I wouldn't mind the 2% boost but I imagine the times will still have to be removed as a lot of people will still not be able to beat the glitched times so it seems less effective this way. And I know it is a different issue about the AG-S but I agree with JABBERJAW on A+... so much faster than pirhana, maybe that is just the way it is though. Still a shame that it has such a huge advantage for people who would prefer to play with their own favourite.

Might be a good idea to link to this on the Facebook page?

[Mad-Ice]

First of all: I am really happy that SL is concerned about the recordtables being legit. May this be the first of many concerns about the game.

I voted yes. But I can understand Huntergreg aka G-Superpilot about Capital Reach. We have spent so many hours on that track that it will be very hard to come close again. But if all other glitched times will be deleted than I am all for it!

So other glitched times are all prototype Qirex times on event 1 in 2048 event 3 capital Reach with Qirex prototype. Event 2 Queens Mall with Qirex prototype. Event Metro Park top 4 with Qirex prototype glitched. Final of 2048 top 3 glitched, with Feisar speed and yet again with Qirex prototype.

Year 2049: event Rockway Stadium, top 2 glitched with ag-sys and Feisar hunter. Unity Square event hunters, top 1 with ag-sys hunter. Than we have a few pilots WHO are glitchers on a lot of tracks, they are having cheated times: Imperlled_War, catapult10199.

Subway event: top 1 with Qirex prototype. Queens Mall: sprint 1 lap top 1 with Qirex. Metro Park race B class, top 2 glitched. Metro Park trophy high, 2049-2 top 2 glitched. Rockway Stadium B class top 2 glitched. Final 2049 glitched.

Ok no more time right now to do season 2050, but as you can see it is not only Feisar prototype, so please of SL is going to deleted times then do all glitched times.

Greetz Mad-Ice

[leungbok]

I just want the a+ scores will not erased because I think they are legitimate, and I agree to lose my other scores because I know their tops are glitched. I said: "So I ask you not to delete Feisar prototype scores in A +" and not "so i ask you not to delete feisar prototype scores"
I know that deleting all the feisar glitched times isn't the perfect solution, and it's unfair that the legit pilots who spent lot of time to set a record see their times deleted because of glitchers, but the poll is simple, there's only delete ALL feisar prototype times YES or NO ! SL musn't spend too much time on this issue, they have a racebox to build !! ;)

[kaori]

...Than we have a few pilots WHO are glitchers on a lot of tracks, they are having cheated times: Imperlled_War, catapult10199...

I wouldn't call catapult10199 a cheater, I think he did these records with Qirex Prototype firstly for fun, after reading the trophy descritpion "kill 7 ships in a race". It's the game that accepted the times he did, just a bug, corrected with updates. But of course all these times "kill 7" with Qirex Prototype should be deleted too, and other glitched times that are so obvious.


...If it was possible to remove all the times then manually add the top 8 for capital reach that may be fairer...

I really think it's possible for speed laps, all the ghosts are on the server, as you can see with the ghost options. If we are able to choose a ghost, we can defy all the doubtful times of FEISAR Prototype. Just do a lap charging your speed bar, then cross the line and you'll instantly see if the ghost uses the exploit or not, regardless of your level.

So it's possible to clean top 50 on most of tracks (once again Sol and Empire Climb are clean), it will take more time, require more means, choosing some "glitch hunters" and trusting them.

[XoPachi]

..............There's a ship exploit? o-o

[Temet]

Don't try to ask for too much guys.
I find this is a very nice from SL to concert us!
Removing all Feisar Proto records, and possibly the ones quoted by Mad-Ice would be nice :)

[leungbok]

I second Temet on this one, it musn't require too much work to fix the issue, i prefer knowing that SL is working on new contents for 2048 (DLC, racebox...) than spending days searching glitched times on every race.

[kaori]

I agree, I just want to tell it could be possible ;). My first post here is still valid.

[Ami Nakajima]

I second Temet on this one, it musn't require too much work to fix the issue, i prefer knowing that SL is working on new contents for 2048 (DLC, racebox...) than spending days searching glitched times on every race.

Yeah it would be an incredibly long and difficult process. There is almost no way of telling a legitimate score from an exploited one at our end and we would prefer it if everyone had a chance to get on the boards. You would be safe in the knowledge that any score posted using a FEISAR Prototype ship would be legit after those boards are cleared. That's something :)

[Oryx Crake]

hear hear! and cheers ^_^

[JABBERJAW]

Will it be cleared off our systems as well? Mine doesn't matter because i dont use that ship, but will new records be ignored on those who did that. Also, will those old times update back onto the leader boards after they are removed? Also, if someone new buys the hard copy game, and does not go online, or the servers happen to be down, and uses this technique, would it still be uploaded since the date is after the purge?

[mangaroo]

I would think there would have to be a game update to prevent that last issue you thought of. That would resolve the other problems as well.

[Colonel]

The exploit has been fixed by Studio Liverpool (see Ami's first post), so going forward the boards won't be affected.

[JABBERJAW]

I was pointing out that there could be workarounds for people, hopefully they covered these possibilities. It would suck if they fixed it, then some people found a way around it. Those were the possibilities I thought of.

[Ami Nakajima]

There shouldn't be a problem. Old scores recorded using the FEISAR Prototype glitch will not be re-uploaded by your Vita. There shouldn't be a need to update, but of course if this changes we will let you all know

[AG-SYSTEMS]

Yes, do delete the times, because it seems wrong to use a exploit to seem better than all of us. And if their are some non-exploit times, those can be redone.

I did some races in HD once when their was the bug with weapons. I stop doing all the weapons based races and did time-trails, speedlaps, and zones until it was fixed. Then, I redid those races.

(Sorry, I don't own a Vita yet. But, I just wanted to say my opinion.)

[leungbok]

Ami, can you please report also to devs those weird times (frequently around 40 secs) on numerous time trials (campaign) ?

[Mad-Ice]

Yes Leungbok, good one! In my first post of this thread I mentioned a lot of nodes where there are glitched times. I really want to fly on Capital Reach again to set a new record. But it seems pointless to me, because the times will be erased. The only question is: WHEN?

[Ami Nakajima]

Ami, can you please report also to devs those weird times (frequently around 40 secs) on numerous time trials (campaign) ?

Sure can. We need a list of the events which are affected, if we have that then we can look into it further.

[ExaltedR3V3NG3]

Ami, there it goes. Inside the quotes there are the events (divided into seasons) and the players who made glitched times:



Queens Mall - acdcrulez1980




Unity Square - Imperiled_War
Rockway Stadium - Austin864 // Khiz // Imperiled_War // vsalmon123
Metro Park - vsalmon123 // Imperiled_War




Downtown - Austin864 // Jardou // Khiz
Sol - kuritako_21
Altima - Austin864
Queens Mall - Nick_Terry // Austin864 // Khiz
Rockway Stadium - BritishFreak007 // Austin864 // Khiz

[leungbok]

Thanks ExaltedR3V3NG3 (there's also Cookyman1970 on metro park season 2049) ;)
Hmmm... some names comes several times !! I hope that there's no way to voluntarily use some weird glitches or exploits (Austin864 also used the feisar proto glitch on altima season 2050 :pirate) !! :cold

[Ami Nakajima]

Thanks guys. Is that everyone? I've handed these over to our online team...

[MarcoM]

Delete my time as well as reported in
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?8762-Wipeout-2048-Bug-reporting&p=216861#post216861

A 1.33.36 is impossible in a 5 lap race on Metro. My name is MarcoM1972 on PSN.

[Ami Nakajima]

Thanks MarcoM
We're looking to pull these in the near future, just planning the best time to do it. I'll post here as soon as we have a solid date in place.
Thank guys! :)

[leungbok]

metro park A+ speed lap WR is also a bug IMO. Too much difference with the rank #2 and not enough speed pads hits !!

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

I have never played 2048 before, and thus I have no knowledge of the exploit. What kind of exploit was it? I am only asking this because I am curious.

[AG-SYSTEMS]

Hellfire explained it.


As it's been fixed I may as well explain it for those of you who don't know. Before it was fixed, crossing the line for the first time at the start of a SL or TT event did not count as a new lap. Because of this, people were turning round and filling up the speed meter on the FEISAR prototype before starting. As the meter did not reset, they could run the first lap at full speed.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

When I first heard there even was a glitch, I thought it involved the game's physics.

[Ami Nakajima]

Good morning guys
The exploited times have now been removed from the Speed Lap boards.

[Temet]

Thanks Ami and Devs :)

[SoA_Booney]

As good as this is, is it still possible to upload times with the fiesar prototype? i just pretty much matched a time by 0.02 secs on downtown speed lap with the prototype but will not upload? Should be ranked 1 xD
Just clocked a wr on downtown b class and time not updated, so is it now no fiesar proto on any events? im confused :L

[Ami Nakajima]

As good as this is, is it still possible to upload times with the fiesar prototype? i just pretty much matched a time by 0.02 secs on downtown speed lap with the prototype but will not upload? Should be ranked 1 xD
Just clocked a wr on downtown b class and time not updated, so is it now no fiesar proto on any events? im confused :L

It should be fine. What is your PSN ID and we'll check for you?

[SoA_Booney]

SoA_Booney - just rechecked, still no updated times, downtown speed lap at c and b were done :/

[kaori]

Good news, for the removal of course, not for you SoA ;)
I have waited it to improve my FEISAR prototype records, 5 new records in C Class, there are only 6 hidden records for me.

SoA, you can post your hidden records on this topic (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?8913-Your-hidden-FEISAR-prototype-records).

[Ami Nakajima]

Good news, for the removal of course, not for you SoA ;)
I have waited it to improve my FEISAR prototype records, 5 new records in C Class, there are only 6 hidden records for me.

SoA, you can post your hidden records on this topic (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?8913-Your-hidden-FEISAR-prototype-records).


That's perfect Kaori, just what I was going to suggest :)

[OperationNT]

Hello everybody,

I just made, yesturday (27/08/2012), a record of 40 sec 07 on Unity Square with a Feisar prototype in C class. When I was looking the global world position, it should appear on top 8 (I was connected when I made the record). But, instead, it keep display my old record with a Feisar speed ship at the place 16000... :(

Is there any link with this removal ? Thank you for your answers ;)

[Mad-Ice]

My new record on Capital Reach C class uploaded immediately because I beat my old record. Capital Reach B class should have uploaded too, it should be a WR. But I could not beat my own old record 53.48 I got a 53.92 and later I uploaded a 53.52 and it did not upload. So I think records will not upload unless you beat your own record. This is a real challenge for me and for Capital Reach it will take a lot of time again.

[OperationNT]

I beat my old record at the same time yesturday (my previous record, 48 sec on Unity Square C class, was easy to beat :P).

Can it be due to the fact that I use the upper path which makes me cross the line over the post ? (it allows me to prepare a barel roll for the next lap)

An other strange thing is that the top 8 records on this track with this class seems very scattered (there is about 1.5 sec difference between the 1st and the 8th global record).

[leungbok]

So I think records will not upload unless you beat your own record

Exactly mate, i've the same challenge on empire climb B class :lol

[kaori]

I beat my old record at the same time yesturday (my previous record, 48 sec on Unity Square C class, was easy to beat :P).
Can it be due to the fact that I use the upper path which makes me cross the line over the post ? (it allows me to prepare a barel roll for the next lap)
An other strange thing is that the top 8 records on this track with this class seems very scattered (there is about 1.5 sec difference between the 1st and the 8th global record).

Hello, I've beaten my previous record on this event, and it uploaded. Try to beat again your new record ;)
The big gap between 1st and 8th is normal since the removal, everybody haven't improve their times yet. Look at Capital Reach !


My new record on Capital Reach C class uploaded immediately because I beat my old record. Capital Reach B class should have uploaded too, it should be a WR. But I could not beat my own old record 53.48 I got a 53.92 and later I uploaded a 53.52 and it did not upload. So I think records will not upload unless you beat your own record. This is a real challenge for me and for Capital Reach it will take a lot of time again.
A few hours later, it seems you already succeeded this challenge !


Exactly mate, i've the same challenge on empire climb B class
It's Metro Park B class for me :banzai

[Mad-Ice]

Yeah I was surprised too that it happened so fast. A+ might be a different story though! We'll see. Anyway, this finally motivates me again to play 2048. MotorstormRC was a welcome distraction and now Sound Shapes is keeping me from playing 2048. I will try to get some laps on Altima for the weekly challenge.

[HunterGreg8]

there are so much hard records to beat. Capital Reach A+ is damn hard, and Unity Square A too. I can take several record but i have to beat my old records i made with the feisar prototype. Damn !!! What a challenge !!!

[leungbok]

there's a record on subway C where the first one have 200 less XP points than the 2nd :eek
It's done with the feisar prototype. XP isn't supposed to be related with speed pad's hits ?

[kaori]

Without update 1.05, you are free to upload your new records from the "original" game. Remember what I said. (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?8864-Removal-of-FEISAR-Prototype-%28Speed-Lap%29-scores&p=217175#post217175)

[leungbok]

I hope it's not the case and only a bug !

[OperationNT]

This time, I really don't get it : I spend 40 laps trying to beat my own record on Unity Square class C (my PS Vita was connected because I was playing against the "global" Shaepe5's ghost). When I finally did it (40 sec 01 instead of 40 sec 07) and I look on the global records, my record is still not displayed on the list ! :| (this should be on the 4th global position)
In addition, the "friends" records list displays my very old record of 48 sec 54 on the 17109 position...

Please, someone could explain me what happens ? Because I really don't get it... :(

@kaori : What do you mean by "update 1.05" ? The last version I can download is 1.04. And congratulations for the 39 sec 56 record ;).

[kaori]

Thanks, I mean without a future update, glitched times can appear.
We needed an update to erase our old records from FEISAR proto to prevent that.

[Temet]

Sometimes your times just don't upload... it's like this since the beginning.
I did Altima A+ SL for first time this week, I was connected when I did my first record... and it didn't upload.

[My_kRySis]

Hey guys!
I have found a way for your personal records to be deleted, however I MUST WARN YOU that this one and only method will delete EVERYTHING (your rank, your ships, and all your progress in MP and SP), so I advise you to platinum this game first! To delete your personal records you simply have to delete the Wipeout icon from your Vita and install it again and the updates. All your feisar prototype personal records that you have NOT beaten will get deleted and you can get in the global records. Your lap records that are not feisar prototype will remain.
Also make sure you sync your trophies first before deleting the icon.
Cheers, and i hope to see new and familiar names at the global records!

PS. I have done this method myself and you basically lose nothing, rank is useless to me as I had platinum the game and also you can just redownload your online code from psn.

[r1c47]

You actually lose everything(with respect to progress) because what you're doing is basically deleting your WO2048 savefile.