The physics of 2048

[G'Kyl]

I have to say I'm becoming more and more fed up with 2048, particularly by the physics. In short: If 2048 paves the way for future WipEouts, the series is going to take a sharp turn into the wrong direction. In my opinion anyway – which of course includes anything I say and write anyway. :)

There are important things wrong with the way 2048 simulates craft handling and the interaction of craft and track.

First is the way ships are being glued to the track. Yes, glued. Ever noticed how you don't get as much air in Zone, especially at Altima? Why, you do get air – the game's not making the entire track a Mag-Strip in Zone. What it does is it adds a lot more weight to the ship (without any effect on any of the other physics-values). Fine, so Zone is some kind of simulation... I don't mind silly game stories to justify certain features. However I do mind recognizing the same awkward “heavyness” to the ship after each and every jump. It just doesn't feel right to me. The heavy weight doesn't add up with the acceleration and agility of the craft – which gives 2048 a random “arcadeness”. It sacrifices the believability I used to associate with a WipEout game.

Speaking of which, here's another: The instant reaction to sideshifting inputs is ridiculous. It only enhances the previous point. Both aspects combined make controls so instant, so tight... you'll hardly ever go off track, the ship will always react to you inputs, it accelerates quickly after a mistake. Yes, you can make mistakes, but you're always in instant control. I'm sorry, but to hell that. That seems to be the kind of bullshit casual gamers need so they don't wonder “why the craft don't react like my usual car racing game doooooes”. Why, because that's WipEout for you!

Or at least, it was.

There's some other quirks I find disturbing – like the way your ship is being artificially placed in relation to the gradient of the track at the long downhill section of Sol (is “gradient” the correct English word?): Don't fall back to the track in time and your ship will... not level out, fall down nose ahead or do anything that's scientifically believable. Instead it will keep it's relative position to the horizontal axis. You can clearly see there's no physics at work. Instead, you're being “held in space” by some artificial mechanism, which again takes away some level of believability.

Same Sol, same downhill section... the point where you stop from drifting towards the outside of the turn and instead are suddenly being glued to the track. Those sudden switches between the “real” track and Mag-Strips or similar artificial mechanisms start making me sick. I don't want to figure out at where I need to turn in order to stay in the middle of the track and where I can let go of the D-Pad in order to achieve the same goal. I want believable physics, not “we'll make it easy for you”. In terms of physics 2048 feels like a dumbed down WipEout simulator to me. I have no desire whatsoever of perfecting my records with that sort of game (and I didn't even start on barrel rolls yet ;) ). Video game physics don't need to be real, but they do need to be coherent in themselves.

I just want to fly again.

[leungbok]

Yes, you can make mistakes, but you're always in instant control. I'm sorry, but to hell that. That seems to be the kind of bullshit casual gamers need so they don't wonder “why the craft don't react like my usual car racing game doooooes”. Why, because that's WipEout for you!
Lucky you, i never succeed to be in instant control !

I have no desire whatsoever of perfecting my records with that sort of game

Best justification ever !

[JABBERJAW]

The sol drop is bizarre, I still like it though, but you do need to find the right route as you say ( this is in XL by the way, when you fly off the track left/ right and the physics change. I cannot comment on zone, BUT that mode has to lead to unbelievable physics in any version. I find this game far harder to keep control of the ships than the previous three versions. I'll take this over the last 3 any day, but you are right, it is not like the old ones at all, the last three made a half attempt to be like them, this one is a new game. We will never see the old good physics again unfortunately. Instead of making the poor performance prototype ships handle the way they do, the could have thrown in the old pitch style with no barrel rolls and side shifts. Every prototype ship is useless, especially the piranha ship. Some of them control fine, but there is never a reason to use them in a race.

I don't care to really get any records that much either, but my reason is there is nothing I want to try for records on.

[Darkdrium777]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Zone effect is completely intentional and exists for the sole purpose of preventing you from flying off every single little bump there is once you reach the high speeds.
Don't know if you've played HD Fury but that's there too, and it's completely okay.

[lanceurdehache]

Every prototype ship is useless, especially the piranha ship. Some of them control fine, but there is never a reason to use them in a race.

Overall i agree but I dont agree with this, the Feisar Prototype on Capital Reach is god like, you attain the max speed so soon in the track that no ship even match him in the long run. Also online in Combat there are a lot of people that use the Auricom Prototype. The Qirex and AG System prototype are the worst ship in the game.

But like you, i would love a Ship that doesnt have Barrel Roll and control like a ship in the first Wipeout. Of course it would need advantage to compensate.

[G'Kyl]

I find this game far harder to keep control of the ships than the previous three versions.
I too find it harder to keep the correct line. But the craft are quicker to react to inputs - that's what I was referring to by "control" :). Flow doesn't matter as much as before, and that's what I miss the most.
It feels like the almost instantaneous reaction to inputs tries to counter any potential frustration coming from bumping into a wall or whatever. And by being that way the ships' physics went from somewhat plausible to downright silly and unbelievable. In my book anyway.


I'll take this over the last 3 any day, but you are right, it is not like the old ones at all, the last three made a half attempt to be like them
The latter being the reason I could juuust bear their physics. :) I never liked to new "immediateness".


this one is a new game.
And generally I'm quite fine with "new". I love it if someone seeks bold new ways and pisses of old-school fans by doing so. As a matter of fact, I've been toying ideas of a WipEout game which completely refuses anything but the most basic concept of the series. Still, not everything new turns out great and I feel 2048 turned WO into a wrong direction.


We will never see the old good physics again unfortunately.
As much as I adore them: That is a good thing. They hardly match modern game design and physics any more. :)


Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Zone effect is completely intentional and exists for the sole purpose of preventing you from flying off every single little bump there is once you reach the high speeds.
No correction. :) I still don't like it. Actually, I don't mind the Zone effect as much as I mind the very same effect - if to a lesser degree - in all of the other races. As I said: The relation of weight to acceleration and agility feels off to me. To a degree where I feel it's ridiculous, especially in higher speed classes.
And don't forget the instantaneous sideshift...


Best justification ever !
I still got plenty of embarrassing records in all the other WOs, so that's alright. :)

[Dogg Thang]

Playing Pure and Pulse on my Vita, I don't think this has hugely different physics. The basic system is exactly the same - the camera follows the nose, the ship swings around the nose like a tail and all real movement on the ship is horizontal, not vertical. They all feel different of course but I think it's a set of parameters that altered within that system (amount of swing etc.). Pulse was far more rooted with less swing, for example, where Pure has a bit more swing and 2048 has loads but they're all variations on a theme, if you will. It's the same system and none of them really have any sense of vertical movement, the very thing that would really sell the AG idea.

The huge horizontal swing on 2048 does very much draw attention to the lack of vertical. I agree it feels like the ship is stuck to the track, barely separated from it, like it's sliding over a layer of Vaseline rather than flying. In a way, the less realistic shadows of Pure and Pulse under the ship compensated for that a little psychologically, putting more distance between the ground and the ship.

What is interesting in all-three is the mag-strip effect. And it is in all three, even though we were only given a name for it in Pulse - the ship only seems to take off from the track when the game tells it it can. Sure, you can get a bit of lift (enough for a neaky barrel roll) but you'll come right back down unless you're at a section that is designed to be a jump. I don't know exactly what's going on under the hood but it does feel like the track is all effectively working like a mag-strip. This does seem very noticeable in 2048, where some bits feel like there should be more lift. But then it also feels like they wanted to make it all more mag-strippy anyway, with less obvious differentiation between those sections. There's more a hint of Fusion here.

Overall, yes, I agree. The series lost the real sense of AG after WO3 and hasn't managed to get it back. Pure gave us a new basic system that has been adhered to ever since, albeit with shifting parameters that can really alter the feel. And actually Pure maybe be the closest among them to getting that AG feel across but it's still a long way off. Slidy nose-driven ship-tail WO era.

I would so love to get the vertical back in there. A sense that there is a gap between me and the ground. A sense that these things can actually fly.

[leungbok]

The Qirex and AG System prototype are the worst ship in the game
They are because no A+ or A race is available. AG-Systems prototype could make a good choice online on A+ class ;)

[stin]

Dogg Thang wrote :
The series lost the real sense of AG after WO3 and hasn't managed to get it back. Pure gave us a new basic system that has been adhered to ever since, albeit with shifting parameters that can really alter the feel. And actually Pure maybe be the closest among them to getting that AG feel across but it's still a long way off. Slidy nose-driven ship-tail WO era.

Well said, that`s how I feel. I always go back to Pure and still plays it now, I must be going crazy because, I already completed nine or ten times and still going.

So, I`m yet to play 2048 but my mate is coming over here to stay and I will play his Vita. :)

stevie:)

[mangaroo]

...The instant reaction to sideshifting inputs is ridiculous...Both aspects combined make controls so instant, so tight...

I appreciate that you prefer the original and "Pure" style where there is a delay but I think it is still there in 2048, similar to the one in HD which may be a lot shorter than previous titles but compared to Pulse (which I mainly noticed as I repurchased it today) there is a significant difference. Pulse is really aptly named and it only just hit me why: the quicker response, the title is the theme. Perhaps they had some special parts in 2048 that allowed them faster side-shifting but was later found harmful :P

2048 may be more responsive but I think Studio Liverpool is always looking to expand it's market without putting people off (and you can't blame them considering how under-rated it is). More responsive controls would help ease-in a lot of players*. I remember all the complaints when we hit walls or were attacked and crawled to a halt for 8 seconds! I imagine they are trying to find the perfect mix and I agree that some more float and as JabberJaw was saying, more effective pitch control in the next iteration would be welcomed but who knows, it is their game.

Hopefully we will be able to play PS Classics on the Vita soon and they could release 2097/3SE so we could have our pick** :) Although switching to pure and pulse and then back again to 2048 really does highlight the fps difference, but also the graphics :) Hopefully some performance improvements with the upcoming 1.02 patch. I tweeted requesting the 3SE "silent" release so it doesn't take attention away from 2048 but I guess until ps classics work it won't be as fun without the vita atm anyway. Apparently support for psx is due out after launch..... it is mainly an issue with their stores or something (since psp can handle psx games fine).

*Is the problem with this (minus that it helps you in combat with quick agility and precision) that it works as a disadvantage for maintaining a smooth line through the course? I can imagine it resulting in really precise control and more corrections being required but I'd still rather have the slightly more responsive controls...although with a tad more floatyness for fun.



No correction. :) I still don't like it. Actually, I don't mind the Zone effect as much as I mind the very same effect - if to a lesser degree - in all of the other races. As I said: The relation of weight to acceleration and agility feels off to me. To a degree where I feel it's ridiculous, especially in higher speed classes.
And don't forget the instantaneous sideshift...


Zone effect may also exist (outside of jumps) to prevent ships from destroying the city perhaps :D A forcefield along the walls of the track - which is what the effect looks like when you are about to go over the track when it's "zoned". I don't think there is (any?) ridge racer type force pushing you along the track though...is there?

**Unlikely to happen apparently, as Dogg Thang posted in a different thread it may have something to do with music track licensing issues...Although ..to be honest if they could swap out the tracks it wouldn't be the end of the world..if it meant it not coming out otherwise.

[JABBERJAW]

The Walls slowed you down more in pure/ pulse than in hd. I think hd more than 2048 as long as you manage your nose correctly. I don't think the Walls slow you down enough still. However, in 2048, there are way more opportunities to hit Walls. The mines and bombs stopping you in hd was awful, that needed to be changed. I think a pilot should be punished more for riding Walls as far as speed is concerned, than weapons. Weapons should affect your shield more than your speed, which seems like what 2048 kinda is in that regard

[G'Kyl]

Is the problem with this (minus that it helps you in combat with quick agility and precision) that it works as a disadvantage for maintaining a smooth line through the course? I can imagine it resulting in really precise control and more corrections being required but I'd still rather have the slightly more responsive controls...although with a tad more floatyness for fun.
I actually had to think about this one, hence the late reply. The question of what exactly the problem is is a good one.

As a matter of fact I am all in favor of more responsive controls. In my opinion that's one of the main pillars of any good game. Here's the thing though: I know this had probably not been the developer's exact thought process, but probably in order to "counter" their tight controls, i.e. in order to make the game challenging - they made the ships bounce around the track like mad. So much in fact that it looks and feels ridiculous. Because you can always quickly get them back on track.

And that's my point: 2048 is a great challenge to reflexes and hand-eye coordination. The ships are hard to control, A+ is fast as hell - [LIKE]. :) However, watching my ship reminds me of a the ball of a pinball machine, not a vessel of any kind. Sideshifting and barrel-rolling play into that as well. It's like some obscure Rock Band Unplugged kind of rhythm game where you have to press buttons at the very right moment. Like flying a ship though? Sorry, but NO! Flying some kind of aircraft HAS to look and feel different. Not because of the old WO Trinity. But because of logic and reason and most of all: immersion. Because the latter being what games should be all about.


More responsive controls would help ease-in a lot of players.
Yup, and in general I am one of the first (not one of the First Ones, mind you *cough*) to understand. I just think 2048 is sacrificing too much for an audience that isn't the WipEout audience. At the end of the day I want the game to be WipEout, not ANY game that sells.

[Dogg Thang]

I may be alone here but I don't think the controls being more responsive make it more accessible. Right now in 2048, the controls are really responsive. Move the stick quickly and you'll turn quickly. But that seems to be making it all really twitchy when combined with how the ship swing and camera works, then add sideshift to that. The controls of the classics are far less responsive but the combo of how the physics worked with the camera, for me, made it much smoother and easier on the eyes. Now, from there, maybe you could take something like this pilot assist thing and lessening the impact of colliding with a wall to make for an altogether smoother and more accessible system.

But for me, the responsiveness on its own isn't actually something that's helping here and the need for the heavy pilot assist and simpler control system seems to be trying to compensate for chaos in the twitchy feel and in the tracks and then the combat issues. Like patching a problem without actually tackling the problem.

[Sausehuhn]

The basic system is exactly the same - the camera follows the nose, the ship swings around the nose like a tail and all real movement on the ship is horizontal, not vertical. […] It's the same system and none of them really have any sense of vertical movement, the very thing that would really sell the AG idea. […] I would so love to get the vertical back in there. A sense that there is a gap between me and the ground. A sense that these things can actually fly.

This. Make the camera follow the track again rather than the ship. Just do it.

[mangaroo]

I actually had to think about this one, hence the late reply. The question of what exactly the problem is is a good one.

As a matter of fact I am all in favor of more responsive controls. In my opinion that's one of the main pillars of any good game. Here's the thing though: I know this had probably not been the developer's exact thought process, but probably in order to "counter" their tight controls, i.e. in order to make the game challenging - they made the ships bounce around the track like mad. So much in fact that it looks and feels ridiculous. Because you can always quickly get them back on track.

I get this, it loses its simulation feel for a more arcadey one. Floatyness would help but it does feel like a (very nice) toy as opposed to a vehicle. It is more forgiving with how it lets you carry on but who wants to be punished that bad on already such a difficult game: the sadists (especially considering it is a portable title).
I wouldn't mind some more air in (any) next title and perhaps -5% on the responsiveness for you lot so it is smoother as Dogg Thang was saying. Haven't had much experience with the camera following the track though. Been fidgeting with motorstorm RC trying to find the perfect camera...



Yup, and in general I am one of the first (not one of the First Ones, mind you *cough*) to understand. I just think 2048 is sacrificing too much for an audience that isn't the WipEout audience. At the end of the day I want the game to be WipEout, not ANY game that sells.

A fair point any for a fan to make. I hope they haven't sacrificed too much for you to enjoy but I think it really has helped Studio Liverpool: Compared to the other racing launch titles on the vita, it is by far the best (modnation's online is non-existant and the framerate and loading times are even worse) and I think will have succesfully attracted a decent new crowd - who haven't had much experience with actually PLANNING a line through the course, but are more reactive.

[JABBERJAW]

The last time the game was tightened up was pulse, by far the worst slide physics of the series. You could hold a line wherever you went, and felt I should never get out of control, same with HD, but somewhat less grip at least, that being said, I felt like I shouldn't hit in that game as well. I'll keep this style over those two games any day, it's a hard game, at least at A + speed, and there is a lot you need to learn to get the right line, and even more to get the best times.

Barring a return to the 4 originals, Ill keep this as long as it remains hard. I don't want to hear, " we are widening the tracks again". At some point this will make the game garbage

[mangaroo]

Absolutely Pulse was much much tighter and responsive compared to 2048 so they must have realised to take it back a notch, it's not all doom and gloom for the series :0) Also yes the wall scraping punishment isn't as bad as it used to be, I quite like the length of time it takes to recover in 2048. Actually has been a few days since I've booted it up, bbl!

[Stardragon88]

Heh, I was just having a bit of fun seeing how ridiculous I could make that section of Sol. Took the first left skillcut and drove off it before the mag strip to land on the bottom section, didn't hit it at all and just kept flying straight.. until I finally landed on the section of track where the second skillcut is (after that little jump). You have to steer a little because if it detects you're out of the track on the horizontal axis, you'll get ported back.

[JABBERJAW]

They dialed it back a bit for hd, and much more in 2048, which is good. The wall scraping is fine in 2048, but tbh, I prefer it tougher, like pulse/ pure. What would be great would be a slider in multiplayer where you adjust how much the wall slows you down when you race. 1 being like 2048 is currently, all the way up to 10, which would be massive slowdown. This way, records wouldn't be affected, since the easiest would be the current model. Driving skills would become more necessary the higher rating you choose.

[mangaroo]

That is some next level customisation. I think what you are after is Wipeout 2048 Developer's Edition :D

Stardragon need to see a video of that, can't picture it but sounds awesome.

[yawnstretch]

I think the physics and camera in 2048 are absolutely phenomenal.

[mangaroo]

Heh, I was just having a bit of fun seeing how ridiculous I could make that section of Sol. Took the first left skillcut and drove off it before the mag strip to land on the bottom section, didn't hit it at all and just kept flying straight.. until I finally landed on the section of track where the second skillcut is (after that little jump). You have to steer a little because if it detects you're out of the track on the horizontal axis, you'll get ported back.

This is actually really fun to do, I've done so many laps of Sol that if I miss up the start, this is the goal. A shame you cannot go through that larger hole in the red Japanese symbols in Sol, near the downhill part. Would be a fun thing to aim for.

I find I have to let go of thrust about half way otherwise it resets you as you approach the landing.

I still feel that the physics aren't bad at all, and the bouncing around caused by the tighter controls or whatever aren't so bad with the auricom/pirhana, and even the worst offender, feisar can be handled with practice..but I would still love some ships that move the way they did in Pure as DLC.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

Overall i agree but I dont agree with this, the Feisar Prototype on Capital Reach is god like, you attain the max speed so soon in the track that no ship even match him in the long run. Also online in Combat there are a lot of people that use the Auricom Prototype. The Qirex and AG System prototype are the worst ship in the game.
Hey! The Qirex prototype is awesome, and the AG Systems prototype can be useful in Zone mode.


But like you, i would love a Ship that doesnt have Barrel Roll and control like a ship in the first Wipeout. Of course it would need advantage to compensate.

Recharging shields? Health being restored as you damage enemies? Please give us a vague idea.

[mangaroo]

But like you, i would love a Ship that doesnt have Barrel Roll and control like a ship in the first Wipeout. Of course it would need advantage to compensate.

Recharging shields? Health being restored as you damage enemies? Please give us a vague idea.

Considering the acceleration may take a while to build up and possibly no side-shifts, the DLC ships may need a decent advantage, maybe a lift-off button to get that extra bit of air to jump over the corners ;0) ...would be wasted with the current strict invisible-walls though. Not to mention probably controversial and hardly faithful to classic gameplay. Might be fun though. Always wanted the option to make BR easier wherever you wanted really, but would of course need serious disadvantages like double damage taken from the popup/BR and a slower speed/acceleration. May mess up speed laps though :P

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

I was already thinking of being able to perform jumps under your own power a few days ago, and I actually came up with a cool feature. You could jump almost whenever you wanted, and you could do it by pushing your nose down and then quickly pulling it up, thus causing you to launch into the air. This could have a whole world of applications; Gaining extra height to reach shortcuts and do barrel rolls, dodging Quakes, Mines and Bombs, the list goes on.

[mangaroo]

I like it of course, but the balancing would a headache! May mess up one or two corners as well if there isn't an extra input required. Still, fun idea. Also I read your suggestions for the new prototypes and think they would be fun too but think the better place would be to either send the suggestions to the Facebook.com/wipeout2048 people, using a direct message. Or if you don't use Facebook I think Hellfire said he will transfer the message if you send him a PM. Might want to add your reasons too, just to nail it.

[leungbok]

I simply don't like the idea of making BRs easier to perform !

[mangaroo]

Well I was thinking for fun modes rather than competition, but I don't think we have much to worry about anyway! I would be...flabbergasted if they announced anything of the sort. I won't lie though, I'd be excited. I can imagine it would add so much frustration and time wasting for the top players trying to improve times etc.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

I simply don't like the idea of making BRs easier to perform !
If you're against it, we could always add some bounce to it. Make it 'dangerous' or something.

EDIT:

Another application: Dodging Rockets (and pads that you don't want to hit).