weapons

[Oryx Crake]

I'm so sick of getting hit with so many weapons online these days that I'm honestly considering not playing online anymore. just wanted to see what your take was on it.

[trackripper]

Agree with you totally. Especially 1v1's. When it's just you and a randomer, and you have a clear 3 sec lead that you fought hard to get with lines, not weapons, then he just fires a rocket at you and flies past, well, that's just annoying.

Especially when he flies out of sight and you just happen to pick up a missile that's out of range. Story of my life.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

I voted against weapons. Not because I want them removed from the game (though I wouldn't object to that), but because they're just stupidly overpowered in HD Fury in particular (Pure and Pulse also have overpowered weapons, but not so bad). The speed loss is just too much IMO.

[Rennfisch]

I agree as well.

Normaly I fly Piranha. It has well-known less thrust. A few mines/bombs - I'm the last one immediately and if I pass someone I'll be hit by some missile or such crap and can't get away from last place.

When I host a race without weapons, after a few tracks most of the contenders were gone. :(

[Flint Fandango]

Weapons are for sissies, imo. :g
Mines, Bomb and Quake equals scraping, pricking and hair-tearing.
In Wip3out, I play weps off only, because you still have the possibility to do a hyperthrust, but in HD I prefer "green races" due to the Turbo.

[trackripper]

When I host a race without weapons, after a few tracks most of the contenders were gone. :(

This is SO true. I turned weps off for a full Rapier room, 5 left after the first race (did it suddenly... :P ) and 2 messaged me, 1 saying "F*** you noob", and the other politely asking for weps to be turned on. The latter was Azurooth :P

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

Somebody called you a noob for turning the weapons off?! :lol

[Flint Fandango]

Hey, imagine an eliminator with weapons off...:D
That would make a great WOZ-Trophy: Win an eliminator just by ramming your opponents to death, slam ´em into walls and push them off the track, if possible. :g
Sweet fantasy...

[Rennfisch]

ROFL! Everyone wants to pilot a Triakis then! ;)

[trackripper]

Somebody called you a noob for turning the weapons off?! :lol

I know right? :P I lol'ed quite a bit at that one.

[leungbok]

Somebody called you a noob for turning the weapons off?! :lol
Off course !! How can someone deprive real players from their quake and bomb's skills ? :bomb
;)

[Tiduch]

I love weapons, especially on eliminator. :lol


That would make a great WOZ-Trophy: Win an eliminator just by ramming your opponents to death, slam ´em into walls and push them off the track, if possible.
Sweet fantasy...

It's impossible, you dont get points for ram kill.

[R3BU5ER]

I hate bombs and mines, but ofcourse, always try to get in front all means necessary ;)

[NX-01]

You know that a few well placed bombs or mines is a great equalizer for players that insist on ramming the hell out of you off the line. And a peacefully "Quake" is a good way to clear the road ahead for the win. :nod

[amplificated]

I think weapons are a part of WipEout, but I also think the actual racing gameplay is above and beyond that of the casual weapons-on races. It's hard to say WipEout would be better if it didn't have weapons, but at the same time, there's no mode online that really encourages people to race the best.

I would like a new "pure race" mode that capitalises primarily on a player's racing skills only; but it would probably require some new elements to make it more fun and competitively worthwhile than speedlap, including some energy-related restrictions, but nothing as bad as with weapons-off races.

People have said WipEout has good potential as an eSports game in the past, and this is what it's missing if it has a chance of that. Single Race as it is is too random and casual, and there is no head-to-head mode that's dependent on skill.

[Frailavi]

I'm okay with weapons. However, I'm not okay with people who use AG-Systems to get the fast start just to get to the first weapon and use every bomb and mines they get their hands on. Some good racers will be 5 seconds ahead and still drop them. It's annoying, frustrating, and unneeded.

This is why I try to only play with people like DP, Oryx, Lady, and a few others. Everyone else is so hell bent on placing first that they don't even want to make it a close finish.

[Oryx Crake]

Ah I should've been clearer. I dont mind so much that weapons exist in the game but if you're unlucky a single mine can drop you from first to last place (think sol 2 open part and suddenly lapped mines!)as MrSmad said weapons are overpowered. What I'm especially sick of though are players who just cant seem to avoid putting the boot in as many times as possible.
I'm sure it's happened to everyone here once or twice: you're in the lead, you get shot by a missile as the guy passes you he blasts you with rockets and drops a bomb in your path right after the next weapon pad.

Curiously I dont mind cambodia races among friends though. I guess it's the feeling that people win only because of weapons that's annoying.

As a side note the phrase: "Greater use of combat" is the one single thing that gets me worried about wo2048.

[leungbok]

I regret a lot that devs had included eliminator mode with Fury without porting also the multiplayer timetrial from pure !! I'd loved to race with some noob friends on HD ! :D
ATM i play a lot a little psn game called SkyDrift, and it have that kind of mode.
It's really very addictive !! I hope the speedlap online mode on 2048 will ressemble to it.8)
About weapons also, the more tactic use of items on next wipeout will make it less frustrating to play for pilots who wants more to race fast than shooting at everything !! :)

[Temet]

Weapon's gestion could be changed to bring some strategy.
In WOHD, I kinda hate them... rockets, mines or bombs slow you really too much. This has been said several times, it's not only my feeling ;)
In old Wipes, weapons used to slow you down less, and ships didn't take ages to gain speed again.
A game like Blur introduced more strategy with weapons.

I'm afraid the split in yellow/green pads in 2048 is not enough. Weapons must slow down less.

[MegaGeeza22]

I'm okay with weapons. However, I'm not okay with people who use AG-Systems to get the fast start just to get to the first weapon and use every bomb and mines they get their hands on. Some good racers will be 5 seconds ahead and still drop them.

I totally agree! i love weapons but when people keep dropping mines and bombs it does get frustrating! when im in the lead (rarely) i will absorb everything except for turbos and shields and only lay bombs and mines if someone is right behind me.
But its a part of the game... learning to sideshift around the mines and not flying directly behind your opponents is the best way to avoid the bombs and mines.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

In WOHD, I kinda hate them... rockets, mines or bombs slow you really too much. This has been said several times, it's not only my feeling ;)
In old Wipes, weapons used to slow you down less, and ships didn't take ages to gain speed again.

Yes, I like the way the weapons are in the first game. They're tactical and subtle. 2097 is fine too. If the new games had something like that, I wouldn't complain about weapons at all. :)

[goddessloviatar]

I don't mind weapons at all, and I find in most of the races I do with a small starting grid that a gentlemans agreement seems to come into play- if racing just a couple of opponents, bombs and mines are infrequently laid, and the higher skill weapons are the polite way to go- cannon fire is fine! I only use quakes etc if my opponent has raced off into the distance.

[JFthebestJan]

weapons?
YES, of course. u know, it's a weapons based racing game.
u don't want weapons? easy solution: don't play wipEout.
play f-zero instead or other fast racers without weapons.
have u ever heard anyone saying: i don't like weapons in an ego-shooter? of course not.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

It wasn't always a "combat racing" game, though.
As people have said before, it used to be about the anti-gravity ships, the speed, the challenge, racing; the weapons were just something extra that made it more tactical (with a little luck, of course). A racing game with weapons in it, not a luck-based-weapons-based racing game, as it's become.
If it had always been like this, I might agree with your solution. But what most people complain about applies to HD Fury much more than the other games. ;)

[UB3R~JKP]

Voted for the wrong one. >_<

Meant to vote for Weapos are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[Flint Fandango]

u don't want weapons? easy solution: don't play wipEout.

You don´t like weapons? easy solution: Turn them off. Yes, we can! ;)

[Dark_Phantom_89]

I won't go into a long essay, because a lot of people know my stance on weapons. Let's just say I don't like them.

[Frailavi]

Just thought I'd make myself a bit clearer as well. I don't think the use of weapons makes a pilot worse at the game, but I do think it takes the fun out of WipEout. I play WipEout because it's a high detail, extreme speed, Anti-Gravity racing game. Although weapons have their place in this game, some take it too far for my tastes.

This could be the reason I've been playing Jet Moto more than WipEout lately. (Weapons and lack of Phantom rooms)

[AspenExcel]

For the most part I race DEfensively not offensively. If you shoot me I will not hesitate to shoot back! :D Don't really like the shootouts that tend to happen when you get a bunch of skilled racers in a heated race.

[amplificated]

weapons?
YES, of course. u know, it's a weapons based racing game.
u don't want weapons? easy solution: don't play wipEout.
play f-zero instead or other fast racers without weapons.
have u ever heard anyone saying: i don't like weapons in an ego-shooter? of course not.

Since half of HD's modes have nothing to do with weapons I'd hardly call Wipeout a weapons-based racing game.
Telling someone that what they like about a game is apparently beside the point and that they should play a completely different game instead seems a bit silly, no? Hell, 50% of people polled here on a WipEout fan site seem to outright disagree with that stance as of right now.

And I'm not sure what an ego-shooter is, but I'm pretty sure that's about 15 miles off the mark if you're talking about WipEout.

Anyway...
It ultimately comes down to what's fair. Weapons as they're currently implemented simply aren't, and it's fundamentally flawed game design IMO. You can say aspects of them are fun, but you can't escape the fact they're unfair either.

IMO, something needs to change if racing is meant to be the primary focus of WipEout, and it has to go further than toning down the amount of randomness by dividing the items between new pads.
Unfairness has no place in a skill-based racing game.

[Frailavi]

You know, the funny thing about weapons is that it's not the damage I despise, it's the slow down. If mines and rockets didn't stack their slow down (Or have any slow down at all), it wouldn't be too bad in my personal opinion.

Really I think only missiles and quakes should have slow down on hit. Only for the reason that missiles should be used to overtake an opponent who is giving you trouble and quake is indiscriminate on who it hits.

[XR_GTR]

+1 Frailavi, I hate the slowdown most of the weapons cause.

Also, I haven't played HD extensively for a while, but don't mines and bombs have a "bounce effect" when you hit them as well? Honestly, I thought that plus the slowdown afterwards was total overkill.

[Frailavi]

I think the bomb has that effect, but mines do not. The mines just stack the slow down (lengthens the time needed to begin accelerating again) depending on how many you hit... unfortunately if you hit even one mine you lose all control over your ship and can't really dodge the rest.

[Colonel]

I like the combat side of things, and sometimes there's nothing more satisfying than duking it out with somebody over the length of a race. But it's incredibly annoying that a single bomb or set of mines can render a race over before it's really started. You're five seconds behind the pack and you know you've got several more bombs and mines to come.

This isn't an excuse for rage-quitting though. Just suck it up and get to the next race ;)

[P_Denton]

What's an excuse to ragequit then ? Plus you do society a service by not making the others wait for you :P
Seriously though, it's more of a problem of how many (good) players you stuff into a room methinks. Generally, you get more easily chained-killed in a full room if you see what I mean, even in weps off . You get a lot more of action though, too much for me sometimes.

[Temet]

For people saying "play F-Zero", "play weapons off", "don't play wipeout"...
I like weapons! I don't like no weapon.
What I don't like, is that they slow down too much!
They must take energy down, they must slow down... but not that much!

For 2048, dev said they wanted "wing to wing" races... so I hope they decreased the slow down due to weapons... or it will never be "wing to wing" ;)

[JFthebestJan]

@ flint:
yes, we can turn off weapons, but it's not a 'solution' someone can be pleased with. u can't regain lost energy, that makes the whole experience a bit boring in my opinion.

@ ampli:
all the modes u r talking about, r exclusively single player offline modes, so we can't count it. all online modes (single race; eliminator; zone battle; tournament) re weapons based. fact.
well, ego-shooter (first person shooters) r weapons based, so it's not 15 miles off, just a few millimetres ;)

[Dark_Phantom_89]

@ flint:
yes, we can turn off weapons, but it's not a 'solution' someone can be pleased with.

@ ampli:
all the modes u r talking about, r exclusively single player offline modes, so we can't count it. all online modes (single race; eliminator; zone battle; tournament) re weapons based. fact.
well, ego-shooter (first person shooters) r weapons based, so it's not 15 miles off, just a few millimetres ;)

HD is not just about online you know. The single player aspect of it makes up a LOT, so you can't really discount that and say that it doesn't count.

[amplificated]

Single Race has weapons off mode. That's niche, you say? Well then I'd argue Zone Battle, Detonator, and Eliminator as being niche modes compared to Speed Lap, TT, and even Zone.

[JFthebestJan]

these offline modes (speed lap; time trial; zone; detonator) doesn't involve other ships on track, so it makes no sense to include weapons to them. detonator is a bit different, u need weapons here, otherwise u wont get a high score.
in general, only modes with opposition can be counted to this discussion. all of them have weapons..........

[Tiduch]

emm, slow down from quake, misile and mines (if u know how to dodge other mines when you hit first) isn't overpowered, their slow down is normal for me.

Only rockets sometimes is overpower, when u get hit from all 3rockets, we stay for 3-4sec., change slow down from 2-3rockets like a one rocket hit (but damage is still the same) and we are happy.

[Flint Fandango]

@JFthebestJan: Why not? I play "weps off" since I own Wip3out. I have never started a race in that game with weapons on. :) (Aside from challenges and tournaments, where it´s inalienable sometimes!)
Anyway, I want to point out that I don´t hate weapons, but I don´t really like them. I enjoy the pure racing feeling the most, that´s competitive enough to me. I never had and have a problem with ´weps on´races in HD, as long as people don´t switch to a total killing spree. About the lag...well, is anyone out there who´s happy with that side effect? No? Well then, me neither. Enough said about it.
The creators of WipEout gave us the chance to decide for ourselves if we want to play the game with or without weapons - therefore it´s no problem to do it without. It´s positioned in the menu.

The (my) bottom line is: WipEout is an anti-gravity racing game. You can use weapons during a race or not. That´s up to the pilot(s).
It´s still WipEout, by all means.

[amplificated]

these offline modes (speed lap; time trial; zone; detonator) doesn't involve other ships on track, so it makes no sense to include weapons to them. detonator is a bit different, u need weapons here, otherwise u wont get a high score.
in general, only modes with opposition can be counted to this discussion. all of them have weapons..........

...except weapons off single races

And you're right - it doesn't make sense to have weapons in SL, TT, etc. - so what does it mean when the most competitive modes in the game don't have weapons in them, eh?

[JFthebestJan]

@ ampli:
plz read again the first post of this thread. i quoted it for u

I'm so sick of getting hit with so many weapons online these days that I'm honestly considering not playing online anymore. just wanted to see what your take was on it.

oryx talks about online and weapons! there's no word of offline modes, so it can't be part of this discussion. maybe u get it now. if not, i really dont know what's ur problem.

[amplificated]

The thread's narrative drifted when you stated that WipEout was a weapons based racing game, which I was correcting by providing evidence that that is not the case.

Here, I'll quote it for you:

weapons?
YES, of course. u know, it's a weapons based racing game.
u don't want weapons? easy solution: don't play wipEout.

And with comments saying "don't play wipEout", it's hard to assume you're only referring to single race weapons on mode - rather that you were commenting on the game as a whole, which I hope I've shown to be largely non-weapons based.

Also, I missed your edit:

@ ampli:
all the modes u r talking about, r exclusively single player offline modes, so we can't count it. all online modes (single race; eliminator; zone battle; tournament) re weapons based. fact.
well, ego-shooter (first person shooters) r weapons based, so it's not 15 miles off, just a few millimetres ;)
In my previous post I kind nullified your "fact" that all online modes are weapons based (even by just 25%), and secondly, it's impossible to compare WipEout HD to Quake or something like that. They're utterly dissimilar to the point that the weapons serve completely different purposes in all modes bar eliminator, so I can't see how calling WipEout an ego-shooter or relating it to one is to any significant degree an accurate assessment.

[AG-SYSTEMS]

Well, I kinda like them, but I hate hitting Mines. Then again, I'm a poor pliot. I can't get wepons half the time.

[Light Buster]

Really hard to win without weapons how I look at it. In fact, I manage to win barely using weapons against the Elite AI on Modesto Heights.

[MyNameIsBom]

i would probably blow up on 2nd lap if it wasnt for the weapons, i'd loose all my health from all the accidental barrel rolls and wall scraping turns. But hey i finally played WipEout HD online at a mates place and i gotta say, some people are too good for noobs like me to play against. Although they make the game not fun for me because they never let me even get 8 seconds behind to them :(

[Ace3cube]

Results are strange. We got more "yes" than "no" and I see only few players who doesnt shoot ^_^

[Oryx Crake]

you know ace I think it's a bit of an escalation effect... like when someone on the server is using weapons you kinda have to use them too to survive or win so essentially people who want to race green dont most of the time cause they cant win that way.

and Bom I didnt really mean that I hate that there are pickup pads it's just that I dont like how I lose so many races I should win because I get completely bulldozed by weapons.

[LJtheZombie]

I've definately been starting to see the merit of non-weapon races recently. Shame that so few people seem to be interested in joining lobbies of that type.

Honestly, I'm not too interested in 'Green' races either, though, since it usually just boils down to 'who's gotten the most turbos?'.

[Archon]

If only there were a way to host damage-less races, like live multiplayer time trials. Some tracks are only worth racing with weapons on so one can roll more.

There is merit in racing with weapons, though. 1v1 or small races like 4-5 pilot races are very manageable. It's only when you've got 2 serious racers and 6 goofballs clustered around them that you're either 5 seconds ahead or 5 seconds behind.

[MyNameIsBom]

and Bom I didnt really mean that I hate that there are pickup pads it's just that I dont like how I lose so many races I should win because I get completely bulldozed by weapons.

oh... lol i see. you just hate that QUAKE,MISSILE, PLASMA, MISSILE, CANNON being spoken by that lady dont you?

[Frailavi]

We don't hate weapons, not in the least. We're merely against pilots, who normally would fly neck-and-neck otherwise, that use weapons to ensure an easy victory.

If I'm directly behind you and I can't pick up pads to raise my shield or attack you - Which I try to always fly green regardless - then why is there a need to mine and bomb me?

Even DP and I use a missile or two on each other from time to time, but we usually finish our races fairly close to one another. Those races are always the most fun.

That's just my take on it though, everyone plays the game differently and there's no right or wrong way to play it.

[leungbok]

The game is in cause there, not the pilots ! I personnaly don't expect from the average players to be fair, mostly when the game isn't ! Anyway i maybe expect more from experienced pilots.
- The use of lot of bombs/mines when you're first is logical and fair IMO (when i'm more than 5 sec in front, i prefer to absorb ;)).
- Spamming bombs/mines when you're penultimate is weak IMO ! The goal of just not being last is not what i expect from experienced pilots. To me, they must always fight for the win, even if they're far from the lead.
- Using bombs when you're last to hit the leader is the worst for me. It's not a tactical to win, because if you're last there's almost no chances to catch the leader (in a balanced room off course), but only to annoy the first pilot :-
- Usually people focused too much on who's in the room, not on their race.
- People i like to race with, are those wanting to be always fast, who uses their weapons to overtake or slowdown contenders, but who also absorb a bit to do BRs and increase their advance.

All that, except on team races, off course ;)

But really, there's no player to blame here. It's the game system who's in cause, because it allows all those possibilities. i really prefer one thousand time the weapon system in blur or skydrift, when you can chose your items and don't rely on luck but tactics, it's perfectly balanced between piloting and dogfight. But hey, wipeout HD is like it is, so when you play it, you know what to expect. It can be fun anyway, but i personnaly don't pay attention on multiplayer results or on who i'm winning or losing, there's too much random factors. :robot


Edit : about that, i like eliminator mode, and i find this mode far more fair than SR :banzai

[feisar rocket]

Well I hate some people in Zone battle. Spamming boost, I call it .3ing and the people Zone Bombers. Oh man Syncopia is just riddled with bariers in people's race line. Every 5 seconds. "Contender Eliminated!" And the lady can't even say barrier. You just hear "ba-ba-barri-barrier.......barri-ba-barrier."

That and air combat...but I guess my rant is long enough and nobody wants to read this anymore.

[Archon]

Even the computer spams barriers! You're supposed to place them in strategic places, forcing an opponent to hit it, shield through it, or miss the boost pad. I don't even play on the Zone-only levels because they're like four-lane highways. The best Zone Battle tracks must have choke points.

[feisar rocket]

...computer spams barriers! You're supposed to place them in strategic places... I know but I mean SPAM, just all over the place. I put them in strategic places but, these people, if you're looking at the progress bars: zone 20.0 - 20.4 - 20.9 - 21.5, and 4 people are doing that (not exactly, but you see what I'm saying?)... After zone 35, dodging is hard. Like playing dodge ball and 20 people is against 1 person.

[Colonel]

There's really only one way to deal with barrier spammers, and that's to fight fire with fire. Get a friend and together turn it into a genuine Spam Race - i.e. you have to boost or absorb whenever possible. Denton and I did this a while ago when playing a particularly annoying guy and he left immediately. They don't like it when you do it back ;)

[Oryx Crake]

@colonel__gadaffi Actually that works quite well with weapon spammers as well... like avi said earlier I try to race green most of the time but every now and then you'll run into your average army boy who wins simply cause he's the only one spamming weapons (this seems to be more common on flash and rapier races than phantom but even phantom has it's army boys) those guys tend to be the first to leave once you start firing back.

[feisar rocket]

There's really only one way to deal with barrier spammers, fight fire with fire. They don't like it when you do it back ;)Good Idea but, when s/he leaves, all the barriers are there. Not saying it's a bad idea but, a big fire remains.

Army boyz huh, always flying the noob machine (I'm not saying everyone who uses Icarus is a noob (but lots of lvl 1's use it)). Ram you, fly ahead for the weapon pad, brake up, blast you sky high with a trio of rockets, then repeat.

[Jav]

Fighting fire with fire is not a good idea at all. You can be absolutely sure that a spammer will never win the actual event. If you are looking to win, you should get ahead of him as soon as possible and dodge as many barriers as you can. To avoid damage, perhaps you could take a little less risk and boost earlier than usual - but even then, it should be really easy to beat spammers.

[Colonel]

Yes it's easy to beat spammers, but they'll often hang around and wreck an otherwise pleasant room. Spam them back for just one race and they'll leave as soon as you return to the lobby. And you'll still win anyway, spammers are generally quite poor players, they struggle more than anyone with barriers littered all over the track.

[Tiduch]

On eliminator must be option to blocks overpower (rocket and quake) weapons. Especially on 6-8 player eliminator.

Anyway, for what is weapons icon in eliminator room? :P

[JFthebestJan]

spam race ftw! :D

[P_Denton]

On eliminator must be option to blocks overpower (rocket and quake) weapons. Especially on 6-8 player eliminator.

Anyway, for what is weapons icon in eliminator room? :P

Yeah, and the bugs regarding the leech beams and quakes (you can't have 2 of those on track at the same time) should be corrected as well. I can't recall how many times I've fked up a leech or died while waiting for my quake to launch^^

@above : you very mean fellows, ostracising the poor n00bs :bat They can be somewhat challenging if you're playing single-handed or something :P

[Cyberio]

I started to shoot less in online mode.

But the problem here is the power of the weapons. You got hit by a missile and you can lose 4 positions if the other pilots have a little experience in the game.
I think there are a little overpowered, and you have no chance to avoid it (if you don't have a shield).

[Tiduch]

But the problem here is the power of the weapons. You got hit by a missile and you can lose 4 positions if the other pilots have a little experience in the game.
I think there are a little overpowered, and you have no chance to avoid it (if you don't have a shield...).

...or bomb and mines : )

[SpeedKAng96]

It's been pretty tough to pick an appropriate vote, but I prefer weps ON. If you would have a weps OFF race against someone with WHO'S LIKE A FREAKING DEMI-GOD at Wipeout HD (master of lines and shortcuts, that is). What's the odds to catch up? There's no way you can catch up unless there's an accindent :brickwall(like falling off an egde).

But I see what you mean there, Oryx. Weps ON races is damn frustrating, especially when you're in the middle of it all. There's QUAKE from some dude from far behind, MISSILE by the guy chasing you, then top it off with rockets from behind at point-blank-range. All-in-a-damn-heartbeat! That's it, you're KO'd:bomb. From what i've seen is that weps have grown more powerful with time and patches. But what I prefer, weps is the way to get forward.

Just my two cent's here, alright? ;) (if you're wondering, I was talking about scenarios with Phantom speed class)

[leungbok]

What's the odds to catch up? There's no way you can catch up unless there's an accindent :brickwall(like falling off an egde).

IMO it's fair that's there's no way to catch up a pilot with better lines, shortcuts (piloting skills in reality). It must be like that on video games like on real life, training and efforts must give you the advantage on lazier players !
Anyway a random factor can makes the races more spicy, but the weapons on wipeout HD don't even require skills (except maybe for the plasma and canon).
:blarg

[feisar rocket]

You got hit by a missile and...lose 4 positions...you have no chance to avoid it (if you don't have a shield).Dodge! Side shift right when it's about to hit you( you have to guess and the direction to SS too :() Dodged 3 yesterday when playing with SoA. (and the 4th one killed me...) But dodging in Elimo is impossible.

[SpeedKAng96]

IMO it's fair that's there's no way to catch up a pilot with better lines, shortcuts (piloting skills in reality). It must be like that on video games like on real life, training and efforts must give you the advantage on lazier players
Fair enough;)

[blackwiggle]

You are either going to run up against somebody that runs what is commonly referred to at the Zone & Arena as a GREEN race, which means if you were going to run under the same tactics it's very very hard to catch up to the front runner.
OR, You use weapons to give yourself a chance.

The weapons have always been a part of Wipeout, if you don't want to race with them you always have the option to host a race without them.....but good luck getting many people to join you, as most of use who have tried this [Apart from AVALON event's ] can attest.

[leungbok]

Not a problem, selection must ... select ! :p

[BlackReign]

I've been playing Wipeout since the first on PlayStation back in 1995 and HD Fury since it was released. Weapons are an essential part of the game's racing strategy. Wipeout has always been good about checks and balances because of the weapons. They create a dynamic race in which someone who has good racing lines and the right weapon at the right time could win.

Personally, I dislike racing without weapons but don't mind a weaponless race or two every few races. Otherwise I don't see the point racing without weapons. It's difficult for someone to win that kind of race if they start in the higher positions. A good racer in pole position clearly has the advantage. Especially with the ships with good thrust like Goteki or AG.

Yeah noob quakes, random mines & bombs are annoying but that's Wipeout. There have been plenty of times when I was on the receiving end of lucky weapon strikes and I still won or placed in the top 3. Overall I enjoy playing with many of you. But I play to win...by any means necessary. lol

[Oryx Crake]

I don't disagree with you on any particular point black but what I meant chiefly, at the start of this thread was that I'm sick of getting hit by rockets in every corner of a track until I either die or am in last place, usually both. cause it happens a lot, apparently to me more than some since I'm one of the few who're whining about it ^^;

But we've raced each other quite a bit and I don't mind saying that I use weapons more when I race you cause I know you're gonna shoot me if you get the chance. Now that's the game and that's fine, but dropping every mine and bomb you get when you're 8 seconds ahead (this isn't directed at anyone in particular by the way) which some people do, is just... well let's put it like this: it achieves nothing except making other people angry and I don't see how that's good race ethics any way you cut it.

I'm not against weapons as such but to clarify my point: people who use every weapon they get their hands on just because they can or because they cant win any other way, piss me off, because it ruins it for me and a lot of other people.

[BlackReign]

yeah, I hate getting blasted by rockets too. lol. Especially all 3 at close range. If I have a good lead (5sec or more) I don't see the point in cluttering the track with bombs and mines. However, I wouldn't blame someone for not doing the same. I like trying to avoid them. Keeps my hand & eye coordination good. lol

I understand what you mean about people who use every weapon. I've lost races because of morons in or near last place just randomly firing weapons. I wish the devs added an option for hosts to kick clowns like that. I also wish the server would remove people who stay in the room but don't race.

[amplificated]

I don't think it's that cut and dry on the weapons-off grid position problem, blackreign - it's only significant if the separation is over 4 places between you and the other good player. Thrust doesn't matter either, because the race isn't to the first weapons pad, it's to the finish line.

Weapons-on races between good players can completely rely on what pickups are received and at what time. If the person in front gets a turbo while simultaneously robbing the good player behind them of a pickup at all, the rest of the race is instantly changed to be based on pure luck with pickups, unless the player in front makes a mistake - especially on sub-phantom speeds.

The only reasons why I play weapons-on are because it's the only kind of race you can get anywhere near the top times; and that you have the chance to exploit more barrel rolls, which IMO are a fundamental aspect of the gameplay which simply cannot be utilised enough if you can't restore your shields.
As a competitive form of play, it's too unfair and luck-based though.

Not saying weapons shouldn't be in WipEout, there's a place for them in the game as it's fun for casual play; however I'd just like to see a better competitive mode that has the random factors removed... and I don't think online TT's would be exciting enough.

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

There's a big difference between "the weapons in HD Fury are way overpowered" and "weapons don't belong in Wipeout games at all". I doubt that many people mean the latter when they complain about the weapons.

[Frailavi]

I don't think it's that cut and dry on the weapons-off grid position problem, blackreign - it's only significant if the separation is over 4 places between you and the other good player. Thrust doesn't matter either, because the race isn't to the first weapons pad, it's to the finish line.

I disagree. With the lag ramming issue for select maps I think the thrust comes in handy, especially when AG-Sys+ speed is about as good as any other craft.

If you want an example, go play Vineta K Reverse with weapons off against at least 3 other good pilots. I've lost up to 30 shield energy on the third corner in the first lap.

Although I agree completely otherwise.

I'd also like to mention I've had more fun in weapons off races than on. Even though I've played much less of them.

[Cyberio]

Dodge! Side shift right when it's about to hit you( you have to guess and the direction to SS too :() Dodged 3 yesterday when playing with SoA. (and the 4th one killed me...) But dodging in Elimo is impossible.

Sideshift in my absolutely honest opinion is a real hard ability to make in the right time and i think is anyways there the luck factor. You can't see the missile (yeah i know, you can see with L1 a backwards camera, but i personally can't concentrate in the race if i start looking backwards) and obviously right-timing this dodge without where the weapon is, is a real pain.
Not to mention if you crash trying dodging it (yeah, it happened to me... i tried to avoid a missile and... terminated with a wall crash and a missile hit), you have to be in an appropriate side of the track.


Weapons are an essential part of the game's racing strategy. Wipeout has always been good about checks and balances because of the weapons. They create a dynamic race in which someone who has good racing lines and the right weapon at the right time could win.

I'm not really saying that weapons should be off the WipEout saga, but, precisely in that WipEout (my favorite, and one of my favorite games of all history), weapons did a real dynamic race, where, if you get hit by a missile, you lose positions, time... but you still have the chance to win, in HD are (imho) really overpowered. The difficulty in 1995's WO was not given by the weapons themselves. And even it wasn't an energy shield, so the motive was completely to slow the opponents for making easier for me to win.

So, of course there should be weapons, but with moderation and the right level of power.

[james1976]

I like the weapons. My only gripe is that I cannot customize my ship more.

What drew me to WipEout HD is the fact it reminded me so much of a game I used to love years ago called "Rock n' Roll Racing". So I like the weapons.

I should say though, that WipEout HD is my first WipEout game so I have no idea if the others have weapons or not. I got it with Sony's Welcome Back package and have been enjoying it. Only got into the online portion of the game just last week.

[D_1998_BR]

I win most flash and venom races,after that the host takes longer times between games,i think he sends everyone a message to pwn me,I always get punished by rockets,quakes and missiles...Quickly eliminated,but I return into 3rd or 2nd.

[Colonel]

Sounds like classic Wipeout paranoia there D ;)

[leungbok]

Play phantom, less noob's behavior there ! ;)

[james1976]

Oh if only I were skilled enough to do so :)