HDTV that's PAL and NTSC capable?

[Medusa]

So, I've checked all through this thread for TV recommendations, which is full of great facts etc:
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5332&highlight=hdtv
But, I've done a tonne (yes, more than just your ordinary ton) of research and what I am getting from all the reading is that HDTV is still region-specific as to whether it displays PAL or NTSC type formats.

All I want to know is if there are HDTVs out there that display both PAL and NTSC.
If you want to know what I'm specifically shopping for, it's this:
PC Input, HDMI Input, Component Input (ideally on the side as it's for PSP connection), also RCA Input and coaxial input (for PS1 and VCR, all my outdated technology I refuse to part with), plus a headphone jack.
I'd settle for resolution of 720p as I don't think I'll get a screen any larger than 32".
Any region-free HDTV's out there? All I've seen specifically are "multi-system TVs" on rip-off sites that jack the price of the TV up, then finish you off with the shipping costs. (Did I mention I'm cheap? Errr, thrifty?)

[Nutcase:259]

Dont quote me on it but i didnt think TV had region locks PAL NTSC SECAM, the only thing that stop you buy say a UK tv would be our 3 prong plugs :P.

i think the hardware you plug into the tv are the things that use the seperate formats. like my PAL ps1 cant play NTSC but id think it'd work on any tv? seeing as they all use the same scart or component cables?

But like i said dont quote me on that:paperbag :P

[Medusa]

If I understand correctly the new TVs still need to be able to display the PAL colour system, and the resolution differences between NTSC region HDTVs and PAL region HDTVs are still rooted in the 50 Hz versus 60Hz scanning method.

I may need to just haul my UK PS2 into the video store, which is what I had to do to secure my other "multi-system" CRT tv. :lol

P.S. The other option is to just buy a video converter along with new TV. However, the last video converter I bought did not work, so I'm a bit gunshy on this. It claims to be delay-free in the conversion.
http://www.world-import.com/com-world-cmd-1600-professional-pal-ntsc-secam-video-converter.htm
I'd rather just buy a PAL capable TV and be done with it.

[Nutcase:259]

id assume that it would be able to use both systems
If it doesnt you could just keep your old tv for retro stuff :P most old games look like cack on new tvs anyway :P, unless you switch the screen ratio to 'old square mode' which is basically like using a old tv anyway,

id go down to the local Argos/Currys/Comet (your countrys equivalent of ;)) and bamboozle the trainee customer assistant with all the crazy tech words :lol

"Excuse me i need a high definition TV capable of both the National Television System Committee format and Phase Alternating Line"

"...err yeah this ones ...HD ready?"

:g

[Medusa]

Unfortunately my apartment is far too small for 2 TVs...
This thread from other PAL-capable-TV hunters shows what sort of a crap shoot it is to find one:
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/281482/which-current-tvs-can-display-pal-with-no-conversion
Usually I find info from only home theatre buffs though, not gamers. If there's any kind of delay in the video conversion boxes it would be pointless to have one for wipeout.
Interestingly, projectors apparently are all PAL capable. :lol Maybe I should get a projector for my 10 ft. deep living room.

I have done that to the FutureShop people. "PAL? What?" Blank, blank stares...

[blackwiggle]

Basically all modern flat panel TV's will play back both PAL & NTSC, usually this will be picked up automatically by the TV and switch to the relevant format.
The NTSC/PAL problems people encounter are with the older Plasma and CRT tube sets.

There still are compatibility problems with the TV tuners in TV's, as in a set built for one region won't be able to pick up free to air digital TV if used in another, that's only a problem if you import a set from another region or have moved to another country and brought your TV with you.

Problem for you is getting a TV with all those old style connections, most sets have dropped composite & SVHS, and component as well, as that was basically a stop gap signal carrying connection for 576 and 720p signals when the first Plasma TV's started appearing.
You could always buy a cheap second hand AV receiver from Ebay, that would have all the connections you would need, just plug everything into that and use it as a switching unit, with it outputting to the TV.

[Medusa]

Thanks blackwiggle, I was hoping you'd weigh in on this. I can find lcds with the right connections, I just have to see them to know if the picture is decent or not...

[blackwiggle]

I went shopping for a smallish flat panel TV myself last week.
Around the 46" mark, as anything bigger will cut out light to the bottom of the Projector screen when I lower it.[It will sit in front of the screen]

I looked at all of them, both 2D & 3D, Plasmas by Panasonic & Samsung, and both LCD/LED from Sony, Samsung, LG.

The plasmas had very slightly better Black levels, but they had fringing around the Red's, plus they run hotter, chew up more electricity and I still worry about picture burn in with them with static images [like the HUD from WO or any other game]...so they got knocked out of the short list.

All the LG's had multiple picture problems that I picked up on, some people wouldn't notice them at first, but once you had it at home and watched it for a while you would notice them then get annoyed.

The Samsung & Sony LCD/LED TV's are the best IMHO, some models better value than others.
Not surprising really as both companies source their screens from the same factory in China.
Only the electronics that drive each set differs, and the styling of course.

If you tell me what size screen you want to get, [Better a smaller higher quality screen than a larger lower quality one IMHO], and if you want 2D only or 3D capable as well [Think about this- You can always buy the glasses and transceiver later for a 3D TV, when funds allow, but you won't have that option if you buy a 2D only TV].
I could help you narrow the choices down.
Taking Sony's mid range set's as an example, the difference in price between the same set in 2D EX520 Aus$1599 V's 3D EX720 Aus$1899, not that much really, those are recommended retail prices by the way.

Anyway, here's a link to something you can download and burn to a DVD [only just fits lol].
It's a free Pro level TV test disc, it has a video tutorial included in the download, so you will know how to use it as well.
You will see there are several versions available of the same test disc.
If you are using your PS3 as the source/player you want to download the AVCHD version, which is a 596mb size file, and 4.1gb once uncompressed to burn as an ISO.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496
Also download the Pattens Manual, which is a PDF doc explaining each test patten.
get to grips with it and you will become a whizz at setting up your new TV when you get it.
When you do get a new HD LCD/LED you will want to be using HDMI cable from the PS3 to the TV for the best pic quality, in your PS3 menu, go to settings, display settings, Ypb/CbPr/Cr Super-White...Turn this to ON,[only works if using HDMI] watch your picture go from a flat, listless, dull compressed video signal into a full on vivid, bright, HD extended colour gamut... the difference is huge.
Then use the test DVD and set the TV up.

[Medusa]

I went shopping for a smallish flat panel TV myself last week.
Around the 46" mark...
:lol You and I have very different ideas about "smallish".

I'm quite sure I don't want anything larger than 37". I intend to use the new TV as a monitor as well as TV, so any bigger would really annoy me while word processing. I'm inclined towards a smaller screen such as 32 or even 27" (although at that size it's almost not worth upgrading), because a lot of my TV/movie watching is from analog sources, which just turn to garbage the larger they get. As for budget, somewhere around the $500 Cdn mark, although I'm flexible there. (Obviously the cheaper the better!) This model has popped up:http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/sony-sony-bravia-32-lcd-hdtv-kdl32bx320-kdl32bx320/10163675.aspx?path=5c96cadae935729f37b535d2aecc83b fen02
However it has only a PC HDMI input. It's far more important to me to end up with a good picture and the proper connections if I can get them. I know I could go the receiver route but I'd rather not as I'd be doubling up on A/V equipment (long story let's not go there) and I just can't be bothered to try to find a decent second-hand one. Plus, space is a major factor. I don't have the shelf space for a receiver. That would mean placing it on the floor...

As for 3D, I really don't care for or about it. But, if you could find me a 2D TV with a force field that prevents 2 year-olds from touching it, that I would spring an extra grand for!

Since I live an hour away from any major shopping centre, I really appreciate all your input. I like to be prepared ahead of time, especially when salespeople are too ready to yes-man everything you say...if I could just go pick up a specific model that would be more than awesome.

[Darkdrium777]

"Get 32" at least. 27" is disappointing for a TV."

Words of my dad about his 27" compared to my mom's 32". Or something like that.

[Medusa]

I want to share some of Jabberjaw's wisdom-through-vast-experience here, in case anyone else is searching for the same type of info:

Any converter I have used has created lag, and I don't use them anymore. Trying to go through a VCR first has also created lag, both were bad. I have played the old wipeouts on lcds before and it has never been good, there always seems to be some lag compared to a tube tv, and it never looks as good as a tube tv. I have some nice tube tvs that play both signals, but it sounds like you want just a LCD. A multiple signal hd tube tv would be perfect for what you want, but I don't know if they even make them. I have an hd tube tv which looks and plays excellent for all the games, but it is only NTSC. I will give my 24" LCD a try and see how it works as I have not tested it yet. It is excellent for the psp, and I haven't seen a better picture for HD.

I didnt find any crts that did all the resolutions . I have Sony wega tvs for my old systems and they look fantastic, but are not hi def. My tube philips hd tv looks grat for Wohd. I am sure that the Sony hd wega widescreen would look great for all, AND play correctly. The only question would be to find a pal/ ntcs model, which had to have been made since my wegas are that.

[Nutcase:259]

If you want lots of different types of connections and stuff i know samsungs are good from personal experience, got component sockets, usb, hdmi etc all mounted on the side of the tv, which is really really useful for connecting a laptop. As well as 3 other HDMI ports in the back and another set of component A/V sockets plus headphone jack, ,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-LE32D550-32-inch-Widescreen-Freeview/dp/B004S5ZV2K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1314722616&sr=8-2
Its not identical to the one we have. The one pictured has all the hdmi's mounted on the side but it gives you an idea of where everything socket wise is, as the casing and design are pretty much the same, also the stand rotates so its easier to get to the stuff at the rear sockets. only problem id say is that the casing of the tv has a translucent plastic around it so fingerprints show up a treat. i suppose if i put thumbprints all over the tv it would give a great steath looking animal print pattern. problem solved :P

i dunno about sony TV's, from what ive seen they look a bit like your paying for the name, at least over here they can be fairly expensive for what they are, and i wouldnt from experience go anywhere near anything made by LG, tv by them was poor quality, kept resetting its picture settings and spare parts where impossible to get and ridiculously expensive when you could find them, there phones are crap too (had to put that in :P)


'Tis my 2 pence :D

[Medusa]

Thanks nutcase, I checked it out a bit more and at least it states in the manual that it supports 576p via component input so that's reassuring at least. However it's not available in Canada yet (slightly different model number in NA, LN32D550K1FXZA). I'm not averse at all to an older model TV either...so we'll see.

Anyone (blackwiggle?:D) have opinions on Philips brand TVs? This one has only 2ms response time. http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/philips-philips-40-1080p-120hz-lcd-hdtv-40pfl3705df7b-refurbished-40pfl3705df7b/10171812.aspx?path=ada01cce7f996b3a3c11ddc29f4829e 3en02
It's bigger than I'd planned, and I would rather get something brand new than refurbished...but! Then there is this one, slightly more but every connection I wanted (save for headphone jack), and only 1 ms response.http://www.bestbuy.ca/en-CA/product/philips-philips-40-1080p-240hz-lcd-hdtv-40pfl5505df7b-refurbished-40pfl5505df7b/10171827.aspx?path=d44e3ca4ca766e1d0386b6ff4896dc0 0en02

[blackwiggle]

If you look at the max HZ of any TV, that will basically tell you what market it was originally made for, and what world region the digital TV receiver is designed to be able to pick up.
Dividable by 50hz = PAL
Dividable by 60HZ = NTSC

So that Phillips is a 240HZ model, which means it's a NTSC model, if it were a PAL model it would be 200HZ.

What's the TV broadcast system type is in use in Canada?
You might possibly need a digital set top box with this TV to pick up free to air digital broadcasts if Canada uses PAL transmissions, something to check out.

[Darkdrium777]

I believe Canada will switch to digital airwaves rather soonish. NTSC is the system here.
I think all HDTVs are 60Hz min and there's no more PAL/NTSC distinction to be had with them. However te equipment that connects to it I think matters...
I'm really not sure though.

[Medusa]

@blackwiggle: all broadcasts here are in NTSC. So the TV tuner itself is not an issue at all, it's whether the TV itself will display 576 through the other inputs (component, composite, HDMI - not the RF input). I really, really like the specs and user reviews of the Philips model, and phoned their customer service - the guy said "No, not anymore" to my question. But I wonder if he even understood what I meant (differentiating the tuner from the display)...

The PS2 itself is capable of outputting 60hz, it does so with Pulse and ICO for instance, so I can play those on any TV, but of course since W30SE is a PS1 game it didn't have the 60hz option built-in. I could mod/force 60hz output on the PS2 but I don't want to do that, I want it to play properly...

Searching for similar experiences across the www has brought up various findings: some like Darkdrium have got TVs here in NA that state in their manuals they support 50hz/PAL colour. Others have TVs that state only 60hz and NTSC, yet they displayed PAL when connected. Many had high-end sets (especially Panasonic models) that would not support PAL input no matter what. Another said that the TV wouldn't display PAL using composite cables but would using component (576p versus 576i, I assume. Perhaps digital vs. analog signal makes the difference?). I've checked specs and manuals on probably 20 TVs over the last few days, and the Sharp LC32D64U was the only TV that specified 50hz/PAL colour in its manual.

So, I'm in the situation where I really think I have to hook the PS2 up to TVs to really know for sure if it will display PAL. I'll take both types of cable and just check. I shall report my findings here. Wish me luck...

(Of course if you lived in a PAL region you'd have no trouble at all with this. :p)

[Darkdrium777]

I have LC32D64U. I'm not surprised it has one more feature I wasn't immediately aware of in PAL signal support.
Seriously, that TV has every feature imaginable that existed when it was released.
Look into that one or a more recent revamp of that model (As by now it's quite old, a friend had the original and we have the slimline.)

[amplificated]

I'm pretty sure all of your concerns became a thing of the past in the early 2000's. It's utterly trivial for new products to support both PAL and NTSC; even budget brands should.

Just go down to a store with TV's on display and check them out, you are virtually guaranteed to find one suitable for your needs at your price point. It's only if you're looking for advanced features that you really need to get picky.

[JABBERJAW]

It needs to play the older games without running like crap, many lcds do, compared to a good tube tv. Lots of them have lag like running through a dvr first.

[Medusa]

I'm pretty sure all of your concerns became a thing of the past in the early 2000's. It's utterly trivial for new products to support both PAL and NTSC; even budget brands should.

Unfortunately that is not the case here in North America. I knew this already from others' recent experiences they'd posted online. I picked up a Sony KDL32BX420 yesterday, I'll post more about it later on after total setup, calibration and some one-after-the-other CRT than LCD W3O play for comparison purposes.

I took a friend in to Future Shop with me, along with my PS2 and W3OSE for testing. It was quite a circus. At point I believe there were 5 sales guys gathered 'round...Conversations went something like:
Salesman A was the type who seemed to think he knew everything and should not be doubted: "None of our TVs will display that"...(Actually, I'm pretty sure the Insignias and Dynexes will) "Why don't you just buy a PS2 from here?" (This game wasn't released here) and so on. At least he was friendly and inclined to be helpful by the end of it all.
Salesman B was the awesome, friendly, humorous type who had some understanding of the geek situation. I could see it in his eyes. :lol It surely helped that he was Indian as he mentioned people he knew taking systems to different countries etc.
The other salesmen popped in and out of the testing area with comments like "Oh what kind of PS2 is that?!?!" (Since it's aqua blue...) "What game is that?"
And, my favourite comment of all, when the menu screen loaded in colour for the first time, "Is it supposed to be that colour?" ROFL

Anyway, I had it connected first to a Sony 42" at their suggestion. It was too big, but displayed the colour properly. So next up was a 37" LG...it displayed the picture, but only in black and white, not colour (Interesting, as I know there's at least one LG model sold here that displays PAL properly). The size was nice but I think only LG makes 37" TVs? So then I said I'd like to see what it was like on the 32" Insignia LED. The sound was a little...hollow? Not quite close to good enough for me, and I think the LED lighting would bother me. It seems to give more detail to me, but at the same time this made the PS1 game look worse than on the LCDs. So we moved on to the 32" Sony. I liked everything about it except the price, which was high for a 32" (as it's a Sony). I wanted to try out a Sharp, but they didn't have any 32" Sharps with 1080p on display...

Sound quality was good, and most importantly, I could not notice any input lag in the short time I played W3OSE on it. It had lots of features the others didn't such as USB input, PIP so I can use the PC and TV simultaneously. It was the last one of that model they had and apparently stopped getting them in, so they wanted to be rid of it. They dropped the price $83 as long as I agreed to buy a 4-year product service plan. In essence, that guarantees that if anything malfunctions on the TV they'll replace it (due to where I live, it would cost them too much to pay shipping to and from a service centre). Even though I ended up paying about $20 over regular price, I still did it, as I'll be using this thing a ton between PC and regular TV use. If anybody can get this model to break down in 4 years, it'll be me.

Of note: nowhere in the manual for this TV does it say anything about PAL colour capability or 576i/p.
So, if anybody ever looks for a PAL compatible TV here, just ignore manuals and salespeople and go try the stinking TVs out...

[s0mmieUK]

I have had two Samsung LCD HDTV's and neither could correctly handle NTSC.

My old set, a 32" LCD, would flicker wildly for anything between 5 seconds and a minute, before it would eventually settle and display an NTSC signal. I sold that a while ago and put the money toward a new 40" LCD set (still very much a budget set, I should add). This one displays NTSC almost correctly. Full screen, full colour, but the top third of the screen flickers from side to side. Not wildly, only a few pixels, but enough to notice, and enough to be distracting. :brickwall

The problem persists even after a firmware update.

I would be interested to hear if all Samsungs have problems with NTSC or if I have just been unlucky. My depressingly limited budget will not allow for another set upgrade for at least a couple of years, but when the time comes I would prefer to get another Samsung, so hopefully not all of their sets have the same issues.

[JABBERJAW]

My dynex didn't say anything about pal or 576 either. Great conversation with the salesman. Those types of questions make the temp rise quickly. I remember testing mine very fast before I was asked not to test anymore (which didn't happen, but I wanted to make sure)

[blackwiggle]

LCD/LED TV's refresh side to side, unlike old CRT displays which refreshed top to bottom.
The flickering you are suffering on your Samsung could be caused by a few things.
1] A lose signal cable at either source or TV end, or having a power cable touching the same cable causing interference.
2]Having a fridge or washing machine in the same circuit as the TV,[TEST] try an extension lead from a different power point in the house to the TV.
3] Having the brightness [and sharpness-should be set to min if not off] turned up too high on the set, which strains the TV's high frequency power supply causing a unstable picture.[Doing the same thing on a CRT TV causes straight lines to appear bent]
4] The voltage going to your TV is considerably lower than it should be [this voltage drop happens at the times when people get up in the morning and turn their appliances on, and again when they get home from work], always use a surge suppressor as they tend to smooth the power going to the TV as the power companies turn on/off generators to the grid as the demand warrants.
Some areas power cabling that haven't been up-kept as well as they should by power companies suffer this more than others.
Having old [40's-50's or older] house wiring can cause large voltage loss as well.