Is it considered cheating to...

[Brother Laz]

...exploit the turbo scrape bug? On Hi-Fumii (that industrial track no one races on) it's very possible to purposely use the turbo scrape (as opposed to inadvertently crashing at Mega Mall). Cut the first corner and you can turbo scrape down the short straight. Airbrake at the left out of the tunnel to turbo scrape against the wall and get a boost for the straight leading to Safety 1st. After said hairpin, cut the little kink in the road to scrape along the barrier at its apex and get a major boost down the long straight. I believe it can even be done in the narrow tunnel, but I'm usually too busy trying to not crash there.

Especially the one at the kink after Safety 1st is a nice boost at no cost, but is it considered legit? :)

Others include the corners just before and after the bridge and the exit of the right (wrong) split on Sampa Run (the latter isn't going to save you time, because you just lost 2 seconds by taking the wrong route, unless you're like me and keep hitting invisible walls in the air if you go left); the S bends at the end of the spiral and the entrance of the pit lane on Terminal; and the (damned) final chicane on the fourth prototype if you want to get into the pit lane.

Unless of course it is cheating. :)

[infoxicated]

Well, it is an "undocumented feature" of the game, but it is a bit of a grey area as to whether it is cheating or not.

Personally I like to adhere to zargz' "stick to tracks" rules that he came up with a couple of years back for a challenge he had going. The principle of that seemed pretty good to me, in that you don't cut parts of the track out just because you can. :)

[xEik]

I don't know if scraping on purpose would be considered cheating but I do know that some of my records benefit from accidental turbo-scraping. It's like when you get consistently 1.05 on Port-Kora and then you get a 1.04 and you suspect that, in the second lap, that scrape may have helped. :roll:

PRACTICE LEADS TO PERFECTION !

[Lance]

.
i don't think scrapes would be cheating. i'm a bit leery of allowing shortcuts, though.

i don't think ive ever gotten a scrape-turbo at Porto Kora; maybe that's why i'm so far back on the tables. of course, you guys are running SE on PAL while i'm on the standard on NTSC. maybe scrapes work better there. i've never been able to exploit the scrapes; i usually just crash if i get one accidentally
.

[Myke_AG_Sys™]

Personally, I think Hi-Fumi is a great track.

[Task]

Personally, I'd say that any time that you can pull off is more or less "legal". Now of course, the line gets seriously drawn at anything involving a Gameshark or similar device, unusual platforms, or cheat codes. But if you can go to someone elses house, have them boot up WO, and expect to pull off the same time, then it's more-or-less legal.
However, if you are managing some truly fantastic time that you couldn't manage without "using this shortcut" or "exploiting some game flaw" (turbo scrape, etc) then it behooves you (as an honorable racer) to explain what you had to do and how you did it if anybody asks.
There's no real hard and fast rule here, but this is the behaviour and expectations I have seen while here. Gentleman racers do not keep secrets about how they done it.

HTH!

[Wiseman]

I kinda disagree. I've personally always viewed purposeful turbo scraping as cheating. The accidental turbo scrape every now and then is fine (I think we all do that) but doing it purposefully is exploting a game flaw/cheat whatever.

I think skipping corners is O.K. though, but not skipping half the friggin track by running straight through a hillside/building (ala the first jump shortcut on Manor Top, that's cheating in my book). However, cutting the corner at the long straight spot before the series of 90 degree turns is O.K., though.

[JABBERJAW]

turbo scraping doesn't work on all parts of the track. At least on phantom I don't try to turbo scrape since it is more likely to hit the wall(especially on last lap). If you scrape an area that doesn't give you a turbo, you definitely slow down. I could see however it maybe being faster to do on the slower speeds.

[Brother Laz]

On LS103, if you airbrake right, pull up and slow down at the first jump you can fly over the void to cut the corner, land at the entrance of the hexagon tunnel (with your nose pointed in the right direction, even), and turbo scrape down the tunnel if you're lucky. :) Saved me at least half a second, possibly more, because you skip the long bend and don't bottom out at the jump into the pipe. :)

The only thing is that if you are too high (above the tunnel roof when you get there) it picks you up and puts you back at the proper landing spot for the jump, and there goes your record time.

[Vasudeva]

I don't think turbo scraping is cheating. After all, it does require some skill. A rookie couldn't do it. In fact, I think - for those familiar with fighting games - that Paul Phoenix' Phoenix Smasher is more of a cheat than is turbo scraping in wipEout! I myself don't use turbo scraping often because - especially at phantom - I find the tactic too risky and unstable. The potential gain isn't so great that I'd risk slamming against the wall for it.

Peace!
V.

[DJ Techno]

hey I'm quite fond of the Industrial track, Hi Fumi.

When I use turbo on Hi Fumi, I take little time, but precious control and maneavering so that when I come across the sharp turns I don't end up losing control and going sideways into the wall.

Hi Fumi with Terminal, both tracks I use the the turbo boost at full power so I can gain extreme speed, quicker lap times, and because its fun(I love it).

On Phantom, everytime I will use the turbo. No matter how fast I'm going, on the fastest level of speed in the game.

[TYSON]

Hi there,
The 'Turbo Boost' you mentioned is actually called 'Rail Sliding' and was discovered in F-Zero, a similar game to Wipeout. F-Zero is an old game (Super Nintendo) and this method of increasing speed (Rail Sliding) has been widely accepted amoung that membership. Infact the current World Records held by Twin Galaxies for this title have this technique included. It was decided that Rail Sliding was simply a part of the game physics & besides I'd like to see them monitor this activity anyway. It would be nearly impossible & deadset boring!

Basically if a player is skilled enough to touch the edge & get away with it... good on them. My personal opinion is that its just not worth it at Rapier and Phantom level, however at Vector & Venom it is mandatory for a record. If your missing the top time by 2 seconds... your missing the rail slides. I hope that's obvious by now.

Cheers
:lol:

[rejj]

Read the interview in the "features" section of this site (with the W3 programmer guy, can't remember his name). He states that the boost when hitting the wall was put in on purpose as a feature, not a bug - so it is in no way cheating. It is a move that has a high reward, but also there is a high risk involved. Miss just a little and you slam the wall. If you are good enough to do this on purpose, then you should be allowed to. I sometimes scrape on purpose in 3SE.

[Thruster2097]

at the moment, I am redoing my tomes at vector level, and I am scoring 1st and 2nd place times without using the turbo-wall-scrape feature/bug*
*delete as appropiate

Personally, i'd like to think of it as a feature you can use if you're good enough.

But as to WipEoutzone, and Time Records, I have to say it should be dis-allowed. Okay, so I've just said that I think its a feature, but weapons and opponents are features, too. If I were to compete in a single race with no weapons or opponents, I reckon I could get a further 1 second off my time at least, so with the inclusion of turbo-scraping, 4 or 5 seconds faster.
It just adds another variable to the system.

[FoxZero]

as far as scraping goes..


This was a design call, there was a great deal of discussion over this matter at the time of development, in a nutshell we decided that going faster if you skimmed the wall would be fairer on the player. scott nayler

i think that nullifies the whole 'cheat' argument.. unless you want to race like a purist XL or WO1 player, there should be no reason to disqualify a time achieved with wall scrapes. he mentions it was highly debated though, so i suppose each pilot has his own ethics. i dont use autopilot for the same reason that someone would try not to scrape the walls, i guess.

as far as 'stick2track' i think this defeats the purpose of anti-gravity.. if we were to stick to tracks, what would be the point of flying? why wouldnt we just race with f1 cars or sports cars. i think anything that lets you cut was probably a design flaw of someone not thinking about flying but rather driving in cars.

on the other hand, you dont see drivers cutting across grass just because they can. i think its okay to cut off the apex of turns, but you should not be skipping whole sections of the track as that defeats the purpose of racing in one. honestly the whole jumping in the air and flipping 180 degrees or flying over objects is far too advanced for me and even though i probably posess the skill to attempt and succeed i would never practice to pull anything off like that consecutively. thats where i draw the line at cheating.

[rejj]

I reccommend that you all read the following article: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
While the examples are centered around Street Fighter, the crux of this article seems to be quite relevant to this discussion. It also sums up my feelings on the matter perfectly.

In a nutshell: scraping is not cheating, and if you are good enough to do it you should. Turbo jumping is not cheating, and if you are good enough to do it and land and continue, you should.

[zargz]

.. on the other hand, you dont see drivers cutting across grass just because they can. i think its okay to cut off the apex of turns, but you should not be skipping whole sections of the track as that defeats the purpose of racing in one. honestly the whole jumping in the air and flipping 180 degrees or flying over objects is far too advanced for me and even though i probably posess the skill to attempt and succeed i would never practice to pull anything off like that consecutively. thats where i draw the line at cheating.
coudn't say it better myself ! (^_^)b

[xEik]

Some chicanes in F1 circuits can be avoided but it will cost you a Stop'n Go. I don't think cutting whole parts of the circuit is fair.

Flying over the little curves after the pair of jumps in a row in P-Mar seems fair to me. Landing after the tunnel in the next jump doesn't.

[rejj]

Some chicanes in F1 circuits can be avoided but it will cost you a Stop'n Go. I don't think cutting whole parts of the circuit is fair.


Sure, but they also have a large team of marshalls and stewards watching every part of the track that they are enforcing this sort of rule for.

I understand that we are inherently forced to use an "honour system" by the very nature of the game and our desire to share times (since there is no way of authenticating them), but how can you really draw a line on when a jump goes too far or not? What if, even though we have both agreed to be honest and trusting, our ideas of exactly what are legal jumps differ?
It seems to me that the only way for an honour system to work is if we allow anything the game lets us do. That way, there can be no doubt that "maybe he jumped a little too far to get that time" or whatever. How far is too far?

Unless someone wants to go and mark out exactly where on each track legal jumps end for everyone to see and agree with. This would have to be done graphically, to avoid any ambiguity. I am not volunteering for this, since I don't really have a problem with jumps in the first place.. but if someone else does, and everyone else agrees to it, then for the sake of fair and interesting competition I would comply.

[lunar]

(Just as I posted this I noticed Rejj had been tapping at the same time, making some of the same points, more succinctly. Ah well, there you go.) :)



Turbo scrapes: I still can`t understand why they decided to put this in. They didn`t want to punish people for scraping, but if they`d just left scraping as having no effect on speed it would have been ok. As it is, on rapier and phantom it makes some tracks (Arridos!) hellish at times. On vector I guess nobody`s going to restart if they accidentally turbo scrape, so it must be allowed, as a ban could not be enforced anyway, but to do a whole race while constantly attempting to brush the walls would reduce the game to absurdity for me. I can`t be bothered with it. It would still take a lot of skill though.

Shortcutz: I seem to differ from most of you on this. Take the example of the Manor Top shortcut. If we`re going to have a no shortcut rule then you`d have to draw a line between what is acceptable corner cutting and what is "shortcutting." Seeing as we never see each other fly, this is absolutely impossible to do. How do we describe the "legal line" to each other? If I accidentally cut the corner a little bit too much on my record time (for eg of course), am I going to restart the race? How do I know where this unacceptable cutting point is? Also there would be constant accusations of shortcutting flying about, a controversy we simply don`t need.

Examples like this would be seen on many tracks. At what point does the Porto Kora jump move from "flying the corner" to taking a shortcut? It migt be if iI go through a "solid" structure. But what if I do this accidentally and have to restart? I`d be imposing an artificial rule on the game which would just take the fun out of it. Banning autopilots would be the same sort of artificial imposition. Its in the game so you have to allow it. If someone chooses not to use them then fine (autopilots are virtually useless on ven and vec anyway), but we don`t want to be asking every new pilot who posts times whether he used autopliots. Anyway there`s TT for autopilot haters.

Banning some shortcuts would also take the thrill out of it. On Terramax its possible to do most of the lap in the air if you want to. If you banned shortcuts it would take the flying fun out of it and make it just a bit of a grind. Also, it would be completely artificial to take the slower route, when a faster one is available. Flying Terramax with all the shortcuts requires just as much, if not more skill than sticking grimly to the track.
On rapier and phantom its pretty much impossible to stick to all of the track if you`re going fast anyway.

To ban shortcuts we`d need a list of acceptable racing lines for every track. Some shortcuts are pretty much unavoidable if you`re going fast, so would have to be allowed. Others that take off huge chunks of track would be banned. And there are endless examples in between. Who`s going to draw up the exhaustive list of where we can and cannot fly, and who`s going to enforce it? You could say "use common sense", but who`s common sense would we be using, seeing as we all have different ideas?

The game is just as challenging and just as fun whether you use shortcuts or not, and they are absolutely not "cheating". Infact, allowing shortcuts is the only way of ensuring we are on a level playing field. Having the rules we have, and after that saying "anything goes", is the only fair approach, as any other set of self-imposed rules would be open to too much interpretation.

Anyway, we`re not really going to go back through all the times on every track, check out whether pilots might have used a shortcut, email them, then delete the times if they did. If you want to compete on some tracks and classes, you have to shortcut. If you don`t want to, then just do the "pure" tracks. Its too late, unless infox wants a big time-revision job.

I`d like it as much as anyone if all the classic tracks were shortcut free, like Altima, Sagarmatha and Arridos, but the rules we have are all we need. Turbo scrapes and shortcuts might be flaws in the game, but attempting to ban them would just lead to arguments, complications and an artificial experience.

[Lance]

.
in light of all the previous discussion, i would say that we should allow anything that can be done in the game with the exception that all AI competitors and weapons must be enabled. The allowance of extreme shortcuts leaves us obligated, in my opinion, to use the recently proposed pilot's guide to instruct those not in-the-know about them. this gives away nothing because it still requires everyone to develop the skill and persistence on their own, and in any case we should welcome the chance to have the maximum number of serious competitors.

for the stick-2-trax fans, we can still run special challenge events with that limitation in the arena, while allowing everything in the regular times tables
.

[Jittery-Joe]

On LS103, if you airbrake right, pull up and slow down at the first jump you can fly over the void to cut the corner
a few tracks do this (on fusion as well)

[Lumpster]

Turbo Scraping is a consequence of the function of the anti-gravity drives that power every wipeout ship, not a bug.
I can't see why people find it so hard to understand, perhaps they weren't paying attention in their general relativity classes?

Personally, I think it's a great idea - it rewards those who drive "on the edge".

[infoxicated]

:?

Curiouser and curiouser...