Gadaffi airstikes good/bad

[Aeroracer]

america and england are leading the way in initiating airstrikes and no fly zone on gadaffi..is this right or wrong in your opinion tose military optins on someones elses country.
prime minister cameron and president obama says its good and legal and fine but are they right..

[MetaKraken]

I think they're right, seeing as how Libya's no-fly zone prevents innocent people from evacuating. :(

[DJ Techno]

this is from the united states...

A) the so called United Arab, whatever they want to call themselves. since that day, they in all their muslim arab whatever agreed to a no fly zone option. Then the nations of england, European union, and united states... basically thats the United Nations Security councils real troops. Since China and Russia want to be pussies. and show that their interest is something more secretive. and some of the other members of the security council. Well whoever the hell they are, haven't showed up in the No Fly Zone security.

Well B) back on CNN and Fox News Network they were on the ramp about the previous presidents who mentions about the involvements of the US and international actions.
from last one Kosovo 1999, the genocide of 800,000 Africans, the thing in Kosovo again, when Reagan was in office about gadafi, which i agreed with Reagan. even though he was a republican and had something about him. the Back bone point that a dictator had to go!

C) this is americans however many international involvements in foreign countries. like the word has been going around probably saying were... The World Police of Democracy.


so is it legal and fine?

yeah..

we had the agreement from the united arab nations and **** to do a no fly zone in their presence and be in their lands for support. cause two air craft carries from the USA wont be enough. after the Marines or Delta Force put a bullet in that dictators head.

[F.E.I.S.A.R]

I learnt in history about autocracies and how history seems to repeat itself with them.People get unhappy(in some One Leader,One Party system) and try to oust/depose the leader.
If Gadaffi stops attacking the rebels,it is (sort of) good. If he does not stop,I do not think it is good(I also do not think it is bad).
Is Gadaffi so effing desperate to cling onto power that he'd rather millions die(and him maybe the last one standing) than just step down and return to peace? I wonder what Gadaffi was thinking when he asked if he and his family could be given free passage out of Libiya.

[OBH]

Gadaffit loyalists who were stationed at the bunker were complaining saying that civilians were there and we shot at them anyway.

Wrong.

This is the British who launched the missiles, not the Americans. Not a single civilian was killed as apparently we knew nobody was in there.

Another attack was called off because innocent people were nearby, so to answer your question -- if we continue to attack only whats needs to be attacked, and do not injure any innocent people in the process, then I think it is the right move.

I hate seeing the British public on the news saying "This is wrong, we don't want another Iraq". This is nothing like Iraq, not at all. Main difference is the no fly zone was an unprecedented agreement between 98 different countries. Each willing to do their part. British troops on the ground will be near to non existent.

[Autechom]

Well, what can one say?
No country should have sold weapons to this monster in the first place. And now they show dismay about the situation? Well, there is much oil in this country, so of course the "civilized" west has to intervine.
Hm, just strange, nobody gave a **** about the civil war in Sudan. No oil there, I guess...Or think of Myanmar and the two protests of the people. And the monks even...
All in all, I think it would be right to help the people there. But for the right reasons. Surely this military intervention is not driven by charity. So...


"If he does not stop,I do not think it is good(I also do not think it is bad)." You think it is not bad when he continues killing innocent people?_? Why is that?

[ion harvest]

I think it is wrong. Everyone knows the pretense that USA and UK go to war for. Ok so it not a war right now but in 3 months? The situation in Liba is going to get mchh worse before it gets better. Many will die. Who is bringing weapons to the party? Who is arming up and playing police bully? We are.

We should leave the Arabs to deal witjh their own mess. Everytime we get involved we get despised for it. I don't think we will be a part of the solution. Just a part of the problem.

[Oryx Crake]

I wont say wrong or right here yet because well I need to read up on the subject a little more but one thing people seem to forget to mention is the fact that: this time the rebels actually asked for help from the international community. And if you notice in the other arab/middle eastern/muslim nations where similar revolts are going on, where the rebels have not asked for help, no bombraids have taken place nor have any no-fly zones been erected.

Right or wrong in this case the Lybians did ask for help. That makes a lot of difference if you ask me.

[Nutcase:259]

the west will get stick for not intervening and will get stick if they do.
i think its totally right. morally .gaddafi is totally deluded and always has been
theres been the lockerbie bombing, the bombing in germany and the war with egypt. its not like we've only just realised hes a major psychopath. he should have been invaded and gotten rid of a long time ago.

that said there are some hypocritical elements to this. i mean a war is a war. however you try to dress it up as a no fly zone or moral intervention, how longs it gonna take? to suggest a matter of weeks is totally naive. you'd need to totally flatten the place to sort it out that quickly and that would defeat the purpose of no civilian deaths

plus we were the ones that sold him all the weapons in the first place.

its all about alliances. the rebels in libya are freedom fighters (as Libya isnt a western ally)
but the rebels in saudi arabia (a key USA middle eastern ally) are called insurgents terrorists and al qaida.?

[OBH]

I think it is wrong. Everyone knows the pretense that USA and UK go to war for.

This is completely different mate.

1) It is NOT an invasion (meaning next to no ground forces).
2) The French, Egyptians and Spanish are apparently proving the same amount, if not more forces than the UK and America are.
3) It isn't "The Democracy Police" this time bowling into Iraq of Afghanistan. It's 98 different countries, including Libya themselves and other Arab countries (which makes ALL the difference) all agreeing that Gadaffi should go.

Oryx is totally right. This time the rebels themselves wanted help. Gadaffi was rolling through his own cities with tanks to crush them before a no-fly zone was permitted.

Many Arab countries are now gaining inspiration from each other and wanting to annex their dictators. If they pull it off it'll be the biggest political change since the destruction of Communism.

[ion harvest]

I agree with what u r saying haydn and Oryx but I also remain skeptcal because I believe that the situation will get much worse before it gets better.

Col. Gaddafi was a political scapegoat in tue late 80s and 90s. Our govts knew what they were doing when we sold him weapons. We knew he was brash and unreasonable in his rule.

But we let him carry on his heinous rule regardless because when it comes to money and gain we (uk + usa) can make the whole
planet hungry and dance to our music. I wonder what deals our intervening govts have cut witj the Arab govts.

I'm not naïve enough to think we're doing this in the name of democracy. I mean when New Orleans got merked bt natural disaster the
USA govt didn't do much to haul ass and help now did they. Where was democracy then? Hiding behind a dishonest war is where.

[DJ Techno]

hush


that idiot is already out of office

Bush Jr!

it was just a dumb a s s! reelected president named George W Bush who pushed aside aid from former Basketball star who owned hundreds of plow, tracker, and bulldozer equipment, pushed aside the help from other organizations that were going to give help at no cost to the feds and fema.

so hush, that JACK A S S! is out of office.

and if correct the governor or Mayor who said on television about the cement Levies. "oh these are better and stronger now" his Dumb A S S Butt is out too. yeah.

Now democracy goes spreadout in the name of it.

from the battle of Democracy verses Communism after World War II, The Bay of F u c k ing Pigs in Cuba, Actions that happened in Afganistan when they got rid of the Russians from their country, the start of democracy for South Koreans against the North, VietNam... Flip a Coin on that one, OK Kosovo and the big three countries that had the largest in recorded history for human Genocide, which the USA was trying to stop after the death of however many Jews who died in World War II, I go ahead and throw in the Operation Iraq Freedom and Operation Afganistan aka Enduring Freedom. And some stuff the British did... the Faulken Islands.

Sorry the USA has more foot in Democracy stuff than Great Britain.

hey thats all i can remember the Brits having. the Faulken Island incident. where Argentina invaded the country and stuff.

[MyNameIsBom]

"...there can be no peace without war..."
I don't want innocent people being killed, but what can I do?!!!!
Man sitting at home just doing effing nothing (no tv, ps3 or anything. I'm not that lucky) I feel so guilty for no reason...

[Autechom]

hush




Now democracy goes spreadout in the name of it.

from the battle of Democracy verses Communism after World War II, The Bay of F u c k ing Pigs in Cuba, Actions that happened in Afganistan when they got rid of the Russians from their country, the start of democracy for South Koreans against the North, VietNam... Flip a Coin on that one,

I don´t really get the intention of this post. It sounds very enthusiastic. Or is it pure irony? Sorry if I don´t get it.

[OBH]

Sorry the USA has more foot in Democracy stuff than Great Britain.

Thats the biggest load of b u l l s h i t I've ever read.
This isn't a "who's more democratic" contest for god sake....

[Nutcase:259]

And some stuff the British did... the Faulken Islands.

what like WW1 and WW2? :-

are you suggesting that were less democratic because we are less likely to invade anyone and everyone at a moments notice?

sorry to go off topic but christ...



Thats the biggest load of b u l l s h i t I've ever read.
This isn't a "who's more democratic" contest for god sake....

yes :+
the whole point of a democracy is to work together. to suggest one country is 'better' than the others just flies in the face of everything

[ion harvest]

This thread could do with a poll option.

DJ Techno - the Bushes spread their brand of terror across the middle east and our puppet uk govt followed suit.

Since 1993the number of civilian deaths in the middle east has reached scary proportions. Two Bushes out and
A PC pres in the form of Obama steps in... And what does he do? Play advocate to advocates

Now the rebels have asked for help but they don't know what that help will cost their nation.
Libya will follow the example of third world countries and end up owing a hell of a lot more to usa uk etc
then a debt of gratitude. These nations will hold Libya to ransom for capital gains. Just take a look at some
African nations who did the same and asked for help. Those nations can't afford to pay off their national debts and
Never will. This swapping a bad leader for nation enslavement makes absolutely no sense to me at all.

[DJ Techno]

world war one

wasn't about democracy. it was started because somebody assassinated the opposing sides leader and then whatever else went after that.

Germany for all you Wipeout members from Germany, and know your history and could explain it themselves. about why Germany and its allies went to war the first time and create world war one.

the German members here can explain it best. cause World war one and two was about them and they can explain it for themselves the best!

And
world war two that surviving corporal adolf hitler rallied the germany people to unite and be a new german nation

i watched the videos on this joker on the military channel and his life.

his way to rebuild back up germany was in his own way to create a different government and stuff for germany with the nazi party. and that same nazi party beat the communism party that was around in germany at the time.

And then well invades poland, denmark, etc

and oh if you didn't know about that... Find Out!

fighting for democracy is creating a change out of say communism or marxism to well having the government that america is about today. about letting female muslism have the right to vote, work, and do more. than were clotch over their face and submit to their husband any way shape and form.

which some men still say that isn't bad. but i don't want a woman hand and feet on my will and command 24/7. she got to have some personality!


and what i ****ing said last night. well reread it. it made sense.

not irony.

i said a list of things america had done in name of democracy for the last 60 years all after world war 2. starting with the korean war. what was that about. invasion of the south korea from the north. the south didn't want to be communist.

vietnam... like i said. flip a damn coin!

Cuba and the Bay of Pigs... it was a reason to take out the leader which we help put into office and stuff

trying to stop the major genocides that happen in the middle part of africa, kosovo, and else where.
ethnic cleansing is a damn sure thing for the united states to step in and say hell no! or at least try to step in without the world butting in what america would have done correctly.
by bring in the armed forces and step by step planning and ending it. but it can't be done that way all the damn time!

helping iran... something about something i don't remember, i think we sold them arms to remove a radical leader or something.


and not wanting to help them i say. i said not wanting to help them from reading about the terrorist hostage mission in that country in the late eighties which Delta Force was called in and rescue them. after we did help them iranians for something. that craps happens

iraq part one. well lets see.
hmmm the now DEAD Jack a s s invaded Kuiwait! and you want to tell me we did something wrong with at that time putting the boot to him in the middle east of that country.
it was all over the news, it was all over the international council before america and great britian was yapping on the news.

iraq part two... well I already said it! That DumbA S S! is already gone, but still left with that crap for now.


ok now that i think Nut, Bin, and Aute get the replies.

to ion!
George W Bush was a dumba s s! so i dont give a flip what you got to say about him.
George H(W) Bush no he did fine. gave the boot to the man who invaded a country. thats the right thing to do. Push out hte invader and so call invade.

and for well the finacial investiment the Bush family got. This country already knows about that.

Desert Storm has been over since after 91-92. the deaths in the middle East has been at the own faults of the now dead Saddam because it was his own death squads that were eliminating the certain people in iraq that was not a part of his party and more.

after 93 thats that dumba s s suddams doing!

cause couple years after that. you got civil war in ? sudan i remember, the two black hawk choppers went down. well the USA didn't have a great big plan on that one. so it flunk.

first time the world towers were terrorized.

hmm had to do with the Muslim message about our support for Israel and other stuff probably the middle east, but to damn bad. the Muslim nations some or all don't like america supporting a hated enemy. and america will still continue to support the Israel nation till armagedon.

[Autechom]

"vietnam... like i said. flip a damn coin!"

I dunno know how the expression works in English, but for me, I would flip a coin when I cannot make a decision. So, in this case, it is hard to decide, if the US-invasion and intervention in VietNam, Cambodia and Laos was right?

Godwin´´s Law:
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope— someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.

[DJ Techno]

well you want me to explain to you why

JFK, Nxon, and the last one-two presidents started and ended Vietnam


it was all about the movement of Communism spreading in southeast Asia.

it already affected china, china then invades tibet. the bastards invading a country like tibet for no reason!


then communism moved with the help of russia n a bit of china.

i damn forgot the name of the leader for the Veitnam side that was for communism. he had a nickname too. Uncle something. its the leaders last name and they gave his name for a special route the Viettcong to use to sneak in supplies, weapons, etc under US military eyes.

Vietnam asked for american support to stop the Vietcong. in a ten year jungle warfare. pushing them out and them coming back in. when america said alright its time to go. the Vietcong went to the captial and said "its over alright, over for the side of communism"

and so you see Vietnam look like a part North Korea, without Kim Dong Il, whatever its spelled right now. cause i still laugh at looking at the funny looking midget off the Team America movie and other skits.


like i said.
Really Fllip a coin on Vietnam. cause it was worth it on one side and well it lasted over and to 10 years on the other side.

The us military didn't use the authority to really carpet bomb entire land mass areas, the enemy was well underground in areas. so even though bombing the S h i t out of the area really would have work.

Internationally. america would look like the big big bad wolf blowing the three pigs house down. if Napalm, regular and non regular bombs, Agent Orange, and the Nuke were used all at once.

so yeah all that was used all but the Nuke and the Hydrogen Bomb. cause it cant be worth it. to make a country inhabitable!

[ion harvest]

No it still doesn't make sense. Just look at what we did to Iraq just for a witch hunt. The country lies devastated and its economy completely crippled. Not to mention the number
of civilian casualties mate. We levelled entire cities merclessly by carpet bombing the crap out of them. All for one man.

And again the witch hunt starts.

I saw a documentary about bbc reporter Yvonne Ridley who got caught in Afghanistan and was imprisoned there. When she got released and came back to tje UK
she took some time out to evaluate her experences as a reporter for the beeb and as a prisoner in Afghanstan. A few weeks later she holds a conference with the press
and reveals that she has accepted Islam as her religion and she gave amazing and eye opening insight into why she did.

I'm looking into Islam and am discovering its unversal message for myself. Its the worlds most misunderstood religion because those in power who fear its beautiful message
Will often defame the Muslim populace in fear of its rapid rate of winning over new converts.

In the USA alone it is the fastest growing religion and sees more converts from female populace of USA then men from there.
Its the same the world over. 6billion people. 1.6billion Muslims. Its the largest religion in tje world today.
Just something to think about

http://www.google.co.uk/gwt/x?q=yvonne+ridley+speech+2006+&ei=XBOKTeC_CoXO8gOs96ngAQ&ved=0CA4QFjAD&hl=en-GB&source=m&rd=1&u=http://www.myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?t%3D8055
t.

[Autechom]

Nevermind *edited*

[DJ Techno]

No it still doesn't make sense. Just look at what we did to Iraq just for a witch hunt. The country lies devastated and its economy completely crippled. Not to mention the number
of civilian casualties mate. We levelled entire cities merclessly by carpet bombing the crap out of them. All for one man.

And again the witch hunt starts.

I saw a documentary about bbc reporter Yvonne Ridley who got caught in Afghanistan and was imprisoned there. When she got released and came back to tje UK
she took some time out to evaluate her experences as a reporter for the beeb and as a prisoner in Afghanstan. A few weeks later she holds a conference with the press
and reveals that she has accepted Islam as her religion and she gave amazing and eye opening insight into why she did.

I'm looking into Islam and am discovering its unversal message for myself. Its the worlds most misunderstood religion because those in power who fear its beautiful message
Will often defame the Muslim populace in fear of its rapid rate of winning over new converts.

In the USA alone it is the fastest growing religion and sees more converts from female populace of USA then men from there.
Its the same the world over. 6billion people. 1.6billion Muslims. Its the largest religion in tje world today.
Just something to think about

http://www.google.co.uk/gwt/x?q=yvonne+ridley+speech+2006+&ei=XBOKTeC_CoXO8gOs96ngAQ&ved=0CA4QFjAD&hl=en-GB&source=m&rd=1&u=http://www.myiwc.com/forums/showthread.php?t%3D8055
t.

think about what?

1.6 billion muslim.

im not going to think about that.

but the so called good religion takes that line like sugar in the gasoline tank.

when
a) go on and on about taking out the jewish nation of israel

just cause you don't like them, keep on kicking dirt at them, if the muslim nations around the eastern side of the world would stop acting like dumb a s s and actually find a way to live with the jews.

since jews and muslim seem to have equal parts to the bible, koran, and tora!
am i right!

the stuff about Abraham and ****!

i explain this kind of thing to the muslim neighbors and friend of mine from Pakistan, and still trying to take out on a date his older sister, which she's fine as hell. but like that muslim thing their those little perks you have to follow.


Then you said "we"
What is we? cause im in the United States, so where are you cause
cause if your Great Britian.

it wasn't solely a We thing.

The USA and great britian, swish, den, france, etc. didn't move into Iraq after the end of Desert Storm

But after operation Iraq Freedom. Hey in combat. don't say about bombing building in stuff. it was operations and ordered targets to take out snipers and enemy targets that the ground troops could not get to themselves.

Then their were some misintelligence on targets during night attacks. somehow civilians were killed.

thats errors and then again i wouldn't have been surprised if it was a set up by saddam to use his own people like f u c k ing shields again.

the same thing col Gadeffi is doing in lybia! with bullshit ass lie that british missles destroyed civilian targets. and when the world press showed up that day and time. Not a damn thing to show. no bodies, no hospital full of casualties.
nothing!


this isn't a witch hunt. a witch hunt was Bush and Saddam part 2. not part 1 with daddy bush.

bin laden, maybe its now turned into a hunt. a hunt to take the leader out period.

but for this sorry piece of trash in lybia. naw not a witch hunt. this is getting rid of trash!

[ion harvest]

Dj techno. Ease up please mate. Too much swearing in a debate turns it into an argumemt. Also I provided u wih a link. I shows a recognised and affluent reporters revelations into tje unfair and illegal methods our govrrnments employ. And you call this ok? Really?

My sympathies lie with the Muslims. Not Col G.

[DJ Techno]

yeah the link didn't fly

besides its way old. and isn't about what this is about on col gidaffi and what the other muslim nations agreed for.


your other Muslim nations agreed for a No Fly Zone.

The USA- NATO, European Union, Great Britain, and maybe the Muslim nations military.

We're giving it to them. not one trooper or tank has land on Libya, shipment of arms for the rebel forces are given.

and air strikes and missiles hitting targets of the enemy.

you mention that you want to be a Muslim

heres a thought.

if you were those people in Libya right now. wanting freedom and a change democracy for the country as a whole.

that the people there,
wife, husband, soldiers, medical, religious, etc were being killed by the order of their own Muslim leader...

as a Muslim, with a conscense say a wife and kids. submit to the killing or rally up against the oppression and slaughter.

The war in that country, be it civil war or war for democracy and freedom.

the muslim nations around that area should have done something themselve when they saw all the horror and more going on.

But what did they really do? and remember their Muslims too.

unanimous vote for a No Fly Zone. Ok. who is doing the No Fly Zone? major of the military?
Take a guess!

and the last person who said something about Obama.
check ya self. cause point is. America is busy with so much fighting its stretched out. And its stretched out long. thats the point hes getting at. That America this time doesn't need to be the forfront of this. like America has before.

[ion harvest]

Dj Techno. I'm writing from a touchscreen phone. So its difficult. Let me get to a lap top my friend and I will post properly. Just took me 10mins to write this out.

[Oryx Crake]

Can this thread not be a pissing contest about who's been a bigger supporter of democracy in the world? Honestly this lybia situation is very different from the iraq afghanistan situation and well I have to say that if the Lybians can get their house in order after this then... hallelujah! But the point really to me is that it has to be on the lybians own terms. If they dont want us there then we shouldn't be there but if they want our help then we should render help. Thats about as clear cut as it can get if you ask me.

Also it's not a contest about who helps more. This isn't about making ourselves feel better about our countries it's about helping a people take back their country.

[DJ Techno]

its not a pissing contest.

im also pro military type, freedom type, democracy, type of person so...
i want to and will serve my country again in the military. soon as the **** gets in order.
and say in a military stand point. gadaffi has to go!

the lybians been wanting help

but its everyone else that has to have a say in it. lybia in that circle of the world where its muslim, muslim, muslim, muslim, muslim nation


the lybians wanted help. and what has the other neighboring muslim nations done.

little bit of aid, little bit of allowing fleeing civilians into their countries.

thats all.

like i said. what the agreeing muslim/arab nations around lybia said.

yes to a no fly zone.

whos leading it.
by a surprise. not the muslim/arab nations who said yes to that no fly zone.

its none muslim/arabs standing helping with a lybians to overthrow and end the marxis leader

you know what after we help lybia. america and other nations should and do. try to see how they go on their own after gadeffi is either jailed, shot in the head, or Dead.

we give them aid. help rebuild buildings, electricity, get them computers and cell phones. and turn a marxix muslim nation into a democracy muslim nation

and ion. i got a touch screen phone too. The Sprint Evo...
get yourself the new samsung, sprint, amazonkindle, apple ipad. etc
the tablets. and i mention sprint and samsung because these tablets can also be used like telephones.

give me two hundred bucks i give u one of my Evos.

[ion harvest]

No its no pissing contest. And you make me wish I had 200 bucks to spare now. I got so many points I'd like to make but this phone is just crap.

I agree with you in that A) the Arabian peninsula should have done something before this B) the rebels are asking for outside intervention and rightly so.

But what I am asking you to think about is the cost to Libya. If Col G was ousted and the people given back their freedoms/rights/democracy - how free are they when they start their baby steps in Democracy with an international deficit amounting to billions. I haven't even mentioned what the cost of accrued interest of this exercise would do to the future financial stability of the nation. That's what I mean by enslaving the nation.

[DJ Techno]

oh and that 200 is best American. not that God save the Queen. its has to say In God We Trust! American

hmmm

im not even goinng to thing about that.. this is why


after the Korean war....

South Korea more than 50 years later?

Afghanistan after they removed Communist occupation from the former USSR forty years ago but after the involvement of the taliban and removing them... operation enduring freedom?

after Iraq, operation Iraq freedom?

after Kosovo, the genocide and more?

my people in africa from the sudan, middle part, and well south africa is doing still ok.

oh ****, i forgot about south africa. they wanted democracy from the rule of European nations. and who led that fight Mandela. yeah i forgot about that. well couple decades in that later?


yeah after Libya is done, col gadeffi is either bombed, shot, or infront of a judge and jury (forget the jury).

the new young democratic country of Libya is going to be in a role. like those countries.

so... Is it right to bomb gadaffi. Yes! get that sob out of office, let the Libyans live a free life

South Korea
South Africa
Faulken Islands
Iraq ( after Operation Iraqy Freedom )
Afganistan ( after removing the russians )
Afganistan ( operantion enduring freedom- not finished )
and so on.
Their not slaves to anybody.
and finacially. they all picked up. by the number one thing they can. Commerce, Trade, Economics, and What they can share and give and what others would want and share

[MENGKESHI]

I'm not really sure if it's good or bad but in my opinion it's very different and definitely more justified than either Afghanistan or Iraq. At least this one has UN backing.

[DJ Techno]

a small part of the US Atlantic Fleet is still off the coast of Libya
with over thousand and some marines, dozens of choppers, and enough naval and marine fighter jets to take out gadeffis eastern side he is residing in.

and Carrier Enterprise is just less than a hundred more miles from the fleet. enough firepower to bomb tripoli for a while.

Those ships, troops, and personal are kinda still waiting on the UN to bring the rest of the worlds support.

so this time, the us can play reserve, instead of the front line.

[OBH]

think about what?

1.6 billion muslim.

im not going to think about that.

Why not?


Those ships, troops, and personal are kinda still waiting on the UN to bring the rest of the worlds support.
Their not waiting at all. The British & US have completely obliterated Gadaffi's airforce, and Turkey are key to the naval blockade but just dont want to assume command of it.

[Dark_Phantom_89]

I completely agree with OBH here - this is completely different from Iraq in many ways. The UN have agreed upon these actions and there are many more countries than just England and the USA involved in this. The French, Spanish, Egyptains, Italians, Danes, etc anyone? If a leader willingly kills his own people then he needs to go, end of story. Not to mention that most of the country wants him gone anyway.

[OBH]

You only need to have a look at this updating page to see what equipment has been committed by different countries to the Libya effort so far.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12806112

[MegaGeeza22]

We are getting closer to a 1 world order! where all country's agree with each other and taking gaddafi out is a must. Forget about religion as its deteriorating and 200 years from now less than 1% of the world will be religious...
Most countries want this new world order as it will stop all war and then we can all focus on getting off this overpopulated, polluted planet...
But i have a feeling there will be 1 more great war. This will create jobs for the poor and be excellent for the economy whilst also reducing the population a bit...
Your country needs YOU....

[Kyonshi]

The international community HAD to act in the Lybian crisis. Khadafi is actually out-running the rebels in terms of fire power and it was a question of time before mass-killings were commited against the population - anyway it already started. Also, we had to do something to show that we will not let this go out of proportion, so that other dictatorial governments may refrain from replying to any rebellion with too much deadly force. Just look at how the rebellion is stopped in Barhein. This ain't no invasion, for now this is just to show Khadafi "Yo dude, you'll chill down a bit because right now, you're being much too hard on your population". Or so they say...

On another point, i wanna say something about a "side-debate" happening here, mentioning US involvement in establishing democracy.

First, the US are no better than anyone else in terms of applied democracy. Yes, its a free country, but just think about how Bush has been elected the first time, and also the post-911 events of Afghanistan and Irak's invasion are the best examples of their incursive invasion plans in the name of "democracy". They never waited for the agreement of UN to "invade" Irak, they over-ruled this decision, on which the UN never allowed and invasion in the end. Its been confirmed by Colin Powell, once he was an ex-member of government, that Irak had NO WMS and that they have never been a real threat, and Condoleeza Rice have never beed able to prove the factual existence of WMS. Its all part or strategic positioning against the ever-growing Chinese empire. What's the real fuel of war and global domination? Weapons? Money? No. Its energy.

Afghanistan is standing over the second largest natural gaz deposit of the world. Why the hell the USA had to invade this country??? For democracy? They couldn't care less about that. Irak stands between Syria and Iran, and positioning themselves there, the USA can secure the Koweitian oil and reassure their friends in the United Arab Emirates. Oil sands in Alberta, Canada, my own country, are being exploited at 90% by foreign companies, due to the stupidity of my own government, who doesn't raise the royalties enough to get substantial benefits for our GPD. USA will beneficiate the most from those sands. Research on cold nuclear fusion is the most advanced in the USA.

I think there must be a leading nation in this world, and i'm glad (so far) that its the USA. But that doesn't mean all of their motives and modus operandi are legitimate and acceptable. On another point, you need to fuel this large but fragile empire. This helps me make the link with Lybia. This country is also an important oil producer, providing the world with its ressources.We could easily think that its an opportunity for the America to seize down another large reserve of fossil fuel. We may be wrong as much as we can be right. This remains to be seen in the long term developement of the situation. But so far, i tend to see another stranglehold on energy ressources by the international community, lead by America of course. Thing is, we are being told something but behind, when the curtains fall down, something else completely different is taking place... A mere individual can be hypocrit as much as a government can be. See the pictures... Got Dignity?:)

[Aeroracer]

i disagree with action taken against gaddaffi on the basis that we are hypocrites

no one gave a toss about irac after gulf war one. we leaflet droped the country with the usa and urged its people to turn on sadam and overthrow him.they were foolish enough to listen to us they tried and were slaughted in their thousands and all we did was play it down in the news..only brought it up 10 laters when we decided to invade him cos bush jr's ego was hurt with insults sadam made about his family.

no one gave a toss when mugaby lost the election and said bollox and just stayed in power and killed anyhing that oppossed him.he even killed the wife of the guy that won the election...made out it was a traffic accident if i remember.

no one gave a toss in iran when the president faked the election and used force to stay in power

we are only attacking libya cos the arabs urged us to and its all about deals not about right or wrong.thing is the arabs are smart and have it all planned out.we will be the losers in the end game, where just to dumb to see it.happy to do their dirty work for them.

ive read the papers about gaddaffi and the lies and crap they are printing are ridicoulus.
now im not saying gaddaffi is good.he is a nasty murderer and a supporter of terroism but how about we tell the truth to our people and report the facts and stop talking bollox.

military action against libya for the reasons we are printing in our papers is crap and its wrong..

citizens in his counrty took up arms against their govenment because they watched to much tv and thought if eygpt can do it we can.thing is egypt wasnt rebels it was protesters no force was used either sides just a few clashes.
in lybia the rebels used force to seize control gaddaffi used force to regain control.

im sure if a group of english people got hold of guns and armoured vechicles and went to downing street the govenment would be very happy to step down and give the country to them
if this would happen perhaps someone should hang a sheet from the window asking gadaffi for air support so we can over throw the govenment.
like to see how well it goes down when usa of uk have muslims in airjets bombing us for our own protection.

this has nothing to do with right or wrong because uk and usa do not know the meaning its just politics as usaul dressed up in a nice propagana wrapping and sold to the people just like irac was sold as weapons of mass destruction when there was never any..just an excuse to invade.

im embarrassed to be english i would be just as embarraseed to be american.obama and cameron slate of gaddafi and mubarak and all these other toerags yet they are seen shaking hands and eating dinner and doing deals with them seconds later. stick to your guns and get some balls is what i say to them and dont be two faced.your either for or against not both.or better still focus or runing your own country which are falling apart through your weak leadership and let them rule theres.

@megageezer...i so wish you were right on the religoen thing but its the total opposite.check out islam and see how big and serious it is getting now its huge.the only problem with islam is all its factions need to unite this is being done as we speak by removing nut cases like gaddafi and mubak who do what they want only and dont care about Islam.
religeon plays abigger part in todays world as it ever did.just no one uses horses and armour it politics and cash n oil and secret adgendas

[Oryx Crake]

I dont know that I'd call it all hypocritical I mean personally I wouldn't expect any group of people to do anything like this really if it wasnt to some extent good for them too I might be a bit cynical but in any situation like this there are always secondary considerations. I mean I dont know about you but I wouldn't expect countries to do these things just out of the goodness of their hearts. the world just doesnt work that way.

besides in this situation like kyonshi said we couldn't just sit idly by whatever our reasons. yes there is bullshit everywhere but thats no reason not to do something that is good. to use a tired metaphor the world isnt made in black and white, sometimes you have to accept the bad with the good.

to put it bluntly it's a crap situation and whatever our thoughts on it whether we think it's right or wrong we really shouldn't be wasting our time jammering on about whos fault what is or how we're being lied to or whatever those are secondary considerations to my mind. it's a bit like how so many people get on their high horses about the iraq situation while they wont lift a finger to make the situation there better.

to put that in political terms: if you dont vote you dont get to bitch! and if you dont help when it's needed you dont get to tell the ones who try that they are doing it wrong.

I'm getting dangerously close to rambling here but my point is that this thing is what it is, now what do we do?

[MegaGeeza22]

I agree jasmin that eastern europe is growing in the religion department lol but so is science, in 200 years time science will be beyond our recognition.
religion started as the sun god until that was disproved, then they changed it to something else until that was disproved and so on and so forth. religion as a whole is dropping due to science and what we now know about the universe.
I always thought a 1 world order would be bad but its the only way we can progress as a human race... but people like gaddafi want to run there country differently to the rest of the world and its up to the rest of the world to put them in check...
Africa is a big argument but its a very tough place for modern warfare. The wars we fight arnt to take the oil as we all like to think, we fight to put the right people in power so they arnt a threat and agree with the rest of the world. Yes that does mean OIL but its so we can all have some and to stop the high prices.
Soon we wont even need oil... Fresh water is next and russia owns the biggest fresh water lake in the world...:|

[Aeroracer]

ok..who ups for a revolution..The wipeoutzone politiclal party has just been born...let go to war :P

seriously i see your point..people moan and do nothing because they dont have jet fighters and tanks and unlimited cash to make a difference.we have to much to lose with no chance of making a change ..we get frustrated so we moan..way of the world.

[JABBERJAW]

"are you suggesting that were less democratic because we are less likely to invade anyone and everyone at a moments notice?"

not actually, sadam defied I think 19 UN resolutions, kicked out inspectors continuously, actually said he had the weapons, and most of the intelligence agencies said he did have them, including many other countries. Sadam should have been gone long ago. We know he had rape rooms, gassed his own people, and thousands dissapeared. And isn't Iraq a democracy now last I heard? Who knows if it will last, but if it does, bush gets credit for that. OH, and how many times are going going to say "saddam, stop doing that!, or we'll tell you to stop doing that again!"


Afghanistan: please with this, this was the terrorist training ground. Who knows what should be done there, noone, that is who. however, I don't feel like having any more planes coming down in our cities from these ****heads being able to train like they were able to before.

Election: The recount was done, and Bush actually won, you didn't hear it because he won, mainstream media would not show it. No fan of Bush here, but it is better than having the other (read traitor). If Bush had done the things that Kerry had done earlier in his life, he would be in prison.


Current: yes ghadaffi should be out, he was completely out of control slaughtering people, and many countries are together on this. All those countries should have been in Africa first where the genocide was even worse than this.


As far as alliances in the past, for all countries really, sometimes giving someone weapons to free themselves from ruthless dictators does not work out, since they become the same thing they were trying to replace. Does this mean you don't remove them because you were the one to give them weapons.

[Aeroracer]

in england we knew he didnt have weapons of mass destruction and we lied and we admitted it and we now know we were wrong to invade irac.
irac is democratic apparently but its not a nice place to be.
dont think your find many irac people who will say they like irac better now than before but you will find plenty more western haters and the terroist training camps now have waiting lists.

as for bush..i believe he won fair and square by a slim amount..

afganastan..well what can i say..we put the taliban in power and equiped them and bush asked them have you got bin laden if you have hand him over or we will invade you.they said p**s off like anyone would so bush invaded.no secret agenda there just bush showing the world he had ball and wont walk away like his daddy did.
bush made bad call and crap desisions but he did have balls not like obama who is just a charismatic fantastic looking cardboard cut out oblivious to his own countries problems

[DJ Techno]

Why not?


Their not waiting at all. The British & US have completely obliterated Gadaffi's airforce, and Turkey are key to the naval blockade but just dont want to assume command of it.

because 1.6 billion Muslims don't scare me nor does the number of Chinese scare me and anything goes overboard with them. im ready to be strap, locked, and loaded and peacetalking. but cocked and loaded

muslim religion been around since jewdism and then christianity. Then you break christians down with catholic, lutheran, baptist, and however many more to go.
it might be and old religion. but no matter


in a talk that REv. Ferrikan said a some number of days ago and it was published on the television show of a man i never liked that much to even watch his show or here his radio show. but kinda in a way i do now.

Initials GB something... thats all i can say. for a person i dont watch or listen to his words that much.

Ferrikan was talking about lybia, talking about the muslim nation and people.

i think the muslim nations is so spread out now. its like their are denominations for itself like Christianity does and Jewish.


i dont see the remaining billions of people in the world turning to muslim, hell to every asian nation in the world theres a small small number or muslim asians. so small nobody can count.

jade! Kyo
iraqs with a Q


daddy bush is old school, because he fought( i guess ) and lived during the vietnam war.

the highest standing statement bush senior said was. " this will not be like another Vietnam"
WE go in, rescue the Kuiwait people, we push and destroy Saddams ability to make war. But did not push towards moving further into Iraq. NO. that was a good call back then. Cause it was in the planned program to not do it.

now for the rest of what daddy bush did.

that bullshit lie about "no more new taxes" yeah whatever!
and
how he blew chunks then passed out at a dinner with the Japanese prime minister.

that thing is still the ****ing laugh of decade back then and Lesly Nielson said so in the second or third naked gun movie!

Son Bush...
hes still half dumbass and half a president who started the new change to the slogan for America. Terrorism will not be tolerated!

MegaG
The day the world starts a one world currency... the day i have children and move off the planet.
I would rather see the world start as one world nation from either Star Trek or maybe Babylon 5. to say you got your one world currency or you have the real thing. Where man kind is doing stuff for the better of all human kind and more. F u c k the money system.

[MegaGeeza22]

DJ Techno, calm down lol.
we do need 1 currency and a world bank but thats not going to happen for a long time... they tried with the euro but Britains government (labour) wanted the pound to be the worlds money and the english didn't want the euro either... and so the euro failed.
The worlds governments arnt interested in what money we use now, they are more interested in world peace, taking out leaders who wont play along.
as soon as the U.N can achieve world unity we can move forward as 1 species.
We will need to leave this planet one day, you can stay if you like lol praying in your mosk when the world ends...
It will happen but not for thousands of years... so dont panik lol

[OneAVGNFan]

All that i am going to say is that all people and nations do stupid things, some extremely more than others in both quality and quanity. I support the rebels and that the ruler never should be what he is in the first place.

[Autechom]

"hell to every asian nation in the world theres a small small number or muslim asians. so small nobody can count."

Really? In Indonesia live about 240.000.000 people. 200 millions of them are Muslims.
Malaysia nearly 28 million people, of which about the half Muslims.
Then we have Brunei (as small as it is), the philippines (4 million muslims), Thailand 3 million muslims. List goes on with of course big parts of the Middle East. And more than 100 millions in India and about 130 millions in Bangladesh.

[OBH]

because 1.6 billion Muslims don't scare me nor does the number of Chinese scare me
That's good... though I'm confused as to why they would "scare" you in the first place?


Im ready to be strap, locked, and loaded and peacetalking. but cocked and loaded
For me, this one sentence sums up what my perception of America is -- A strange misguided nation who believe peace can only be achieved through war.

This statement has absolutely nothing against you personally of course my friend :):+

[Dark_Phantom_89]

DJ Techno, calm down lol.
we do need 1 currency and a world bank but thats not going to happen for a long time... they tried with the euro but Britains government (labour) wanted the pound to be the worlds money and the english didn't want the euro either... and so the euro failed.

I disagree and think that one currency and a single world bank will not work at all. I won't go into the reasons why, as that's a completely different argument. ;)

How did this topic get onto the subject of Muslims anyway? Last time I checked, we were discussing whether or not airstriking Gaddafi's strongholds was a good or bad thing. :dizzy

[Autechom]

"How did this topic get onto the subject of Muslims anyway?"

-The answer is Xenophobia.

[KGB]

Afghanistan: please with this, this was the terrorist training ground. Who knows what should be done there, noone, that is who. however, I don't feel like having any more planes coming down in our cities from these ****heads being able to train like they were able to before.




It's a well known fact that there were no Afghanistan terrorists involved in 9/11 so It's kind of surprising USA bombed the **** out of the country as retaliation just because they trained there. Didn't some of the pilots learn to fly in Florida, trained up in Germany, lived in England. No Shock and Awe coming our way I hope.

The political motivation in this case has got to be to help the people, I don't think it's always the case though.

[MegaGeeza22]

hey thats all i can remember the Brits having. the Faulken Island incident. where Argentina invaded the country and stuff.

You obviously dont know your history... The Brittish Empire ruled the world, We conquered everyone and everything, nobody could touch us, we were bigger than the roman empire and why do you think americans speak English?
Nobody has ever achieved what our country has and probably never will...
Learn... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire
Dark_Phantom_89. i think post 21 was were the muslim stuff started. and of course a 1 world currency would work... 23 countrys use the euro and it works for them.

[Autechom]

-sorry. doublepost-

[Autechom]

"The Brittish Empire ruled the world, We conquered everyone and everything, nobody could touch us, we were bigger than the roman empire and why do you think americans speak English?
Nobody has ever achieved what our country has and probably never will..."

I sense strange waves of proudness. I don´t deny that in the long run it had benefits for some countries. But after all, we are talking about colonialism against the will of millions of people. This is something I would expect to be mentioned objectively as in a history book.

"For me, this one sentence sums up what my perception of America is "
I too have always remind me not to generalize. But I am with you: there are regular occurences that make this really hard.

[MegaGeeza22]

Im not boasting about our countrys past achievements, i just hate it when people slag england off and saying we never did anything and that americans own the uk, they Dont...
Im very patriotic and im proud to be english.. but an american is english too, no?

[DJ Techno]

Why do americans speak English


you talk to me with your english and hear mine and every other americans English

its not the same or anything else.

Americans voices and British voices with English are not the same anymore in saying it, writing it, etc

so scratch your part about where did america learn english.
scratch the part about an American is English.


ok...

Like when i was in France for the euro tournament. Saturn and Mr P had no connecting voice with English between america and Britain.
we use different vowels, verbs, nouns etc.
me and them had different ways of sounding and saying english period.

we speaked english, but the english is not the same

America is a melting pot of different people who came here from britian, germany, france, dutch, africa, russia, and so on. and guess what. when the English and american speaking language was established.

its nothing the same in great britian, scotland, prince of walse, canada, and where ever else the uk is influenced

and out of the whole lot of every man and woman i met in france.
they still had to say i needed to slow down on talking with the american english to catch up. Even Mr. P had to catch up. from regular English to learning slang
its not same from the uk.
my new friend from france told me he learned his English from the school they get their stuff from the UK. well if they got from the United States. different



And that same pride the British Empire so called had. when u were trying to take on the germans two times in a row in both world wars. you sure wasn't showing pride when calling out for help from the united states.

no more pride from the story of the british empire. or to stand correct i see no british empire no more. cause then also you would have kept Hong Kong, India, parts of South East Asia and Africa.
But whats the story... you don't

end of the story about the British empire for now. and the history of wearing those stupid wigs.

[DJ Techno]

I disagree and think that one currency and a single world bank will not work at all. I won't go into the reasons why, as that's a completely different argument. ;)

How did this topic get onto the subject of Muslims anyway? Last time I checked, we were discussing whether or not airstriking Gaddafi's strongholds was a good or bad thing. :dizzy

its also a muslim country and like what the fool in iran warned to the US

to tell us not to get involved with freedom for lybia.

be my surprise that Iranian bastard is working under the shadow with gadaffi


Its Gadaffi, The Arab/Muslim area, enviroment, and world part 15 ( i guess)

of course the mentioning of the muslims had to come out. it was going to come out any kid!

[MegaGeeza22]

post removed too off topic...
iv copied and pasted it on my page if your curios lol

[JABBERJAW]

yeah, but afghan was not allowing us in to stop it, and was going to continue with business as usual, train terrorists. would it matter if we allowed 20 canadians to train to fly planes into european cities, then said "Hey, no Americans did it", even though we alloweed them to be here intentionally.

[MegaGeeza22]

sorry jabberjaw we went so off topic i was fuming about WWI and WWII

[Nutcase:259]

"How did this topic get onto the subject of Muslims anyway?"

-The answer is Xenophobia.

:+ people attack and fear what they don't understand
we attack gaddafi because we cant see why he would kill his own people
gaddafi attacks his own people because he can't understand why they are uprising.

Sod the BS about "oh wah wah its all about oil, its so hypocritical, we sold him the weapons"
i understand it is hypocritical but if you based everything on the mistakes of previous governments then nobody would ever do the right thing. ever

but then what do i know, as i said people attack what they dont understand. i dont understand. people who think they know all about the ulterior motives dont understand, nobody understands. we only ever see one side of the story, or the side we want to see


and if you think you do know what happening then how exactly has this gone from gaddafi strikes good or bad to at one point being about muslims and a single currency?
:brickwall :brickwall :brickwall

[Oryx Crake]

this is gonna be a bit off topic to begin with but this has to be said: DJT and Jabberjaw you guys do understand that when you say to us europeans that america is better than us because of this and this and this, and that you rode in like the cavalry in ww2 and saved our butts, that that is somewhat insulting not to mention so generalized as to be a completely pointless remark?

I personally dont have a problem admiting that my country bent over backwards not to get attacked by germany and that that was spineless and wrong, but it's different if it's me saying it rather than you pointing out how cowardly my heritage is. Just like I wont be pointing out the myriad of things I find strange or wrong with the states I would expect you to show me the same curteousy and not tell about all the things you find strange and wrong with my country.

And honestly bottom line we all think of our own countries as a bit better than the rest but I think we're all smart enough to recognize that that is simply predjudice and familiarity. there is no one greatest nation on this earth, we all have flaws. So can we please drop the states vs europe conversation?
I should maybe clarify that us europeans going on about how we are better than america is equally pointless and insulting...

On topic though I havent read the paper today but seems there is a reluctance from everyone to take command of the operation... that has to be the first time that has happened in the last 100 years, but I must applaud america and obama for having the humility not to just take command on the basis that they think they should, thats a show of respect that I must say makes me like obama and the current US government more :)

[MegaGeeza22]

I think it was my post that started off the money thing and pushed it towards off topic but my post was on topic and i never mentioned monies...


We are getting closer to a 1 world order! where all country's agree with each other and taking gaddafi out is a must. Forget about religion as its deteriorating and 200 years from now less than 1% of the world will be religious...
Most countries want this new world order as it will stop all war and then we can all focus on getting off this overpopulated, polluted planet...
But i have a feeling there will be 1 more great war. This will create jobs for the poor and be excellent for the economy whilst also reducing the population a bit...
Your country needs YOU....

[ion harvest]

NEWS: 2 american jet pilots bail from there craft. Libyan women and children rush to their aid. And get shot down hardcore by US helicopter.

Hard to believe that pilots with 20/20 vision and sophisticated equipment could make this error. Personally I think that the helicopter pilot wanted a few kills
on his card so he can show off hs bravado. Cowardly I know and you should all know that in todays day and age we have the technology to determine who is friend and
Who is foe. These copters have sophisticated sensors which can locate metals used in munitions. These women and children carried none. I'm seriously thinking What The FLICK.

[Aeroracer]

Well america have always been best at fiendly fire and shooting everyone apart from the enemy.
It is sad that they were only trying to help the pilots

A for england being nothing now..thats rubbih..we have the britsh commonealth..same as british empire apart from we gave contrll back to the countrys we held because it was right to do so.check out how many countries have ou quen as soveren ruler.

all coutries are special and unique and have much to offer.

[ion harvest]

Yes all nations are important. But USA and UK are more important than others because their people are free and Muslim blood is a cheap commodity.

I got lots of Muslim friends and they treat me like family. They always say tings like 'my faith requires that I be charitable and fair' and I like that. When I ask them about Libya and Gaddafi I see sadness in their faces. They say things like all the wars directed towards Muslim lands are prophecies being realised. So I asked them to show me and they did. They gave me books and I checked them out. Very interesting stuff and I asked for more and that's when they gave me a book called "virtues of practice" and it is this book which makes me love Islam.

I recommend it to anyone who wants to know what Islam is and why it is so controversial in today world.

Sorry for going OffTopic

[blackwiggle]

There is a ABC [Australian broadcasting Corporation] news program called LATELINE that went to air about 4 hours ago.
I will be extremely interested if the LIVE interview with the former commander of the British armed forces Colonel Bob Stewart made it to air worldwide without being edited.

WOW.
He didn't hold back.
He basically FULL OUT said that REUTERS NEWS REPORTERS were actually NATO SPIES that have been specifically situated to REPORT LIBYAN ARMY POSITIONS.

If you can view this please do, I am not lying.
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/

[DJ Techno]

NEWS: 2 american jet pilots bail from there craft. Libyan women and children rush to their aid. And get shot down hardcore by US helicopter.

Hard to believe that pilots with 20/20 vision and sophisticated equipment could make this error. Personally I think that the helicopter pilot wanted a few kills
on his card so he can show off hs bravado. Cowardly I know and you should all know that in todays day and age we have the technology to determine who is friend and
Who is foe. These copters have sophisticated sensors which can locate metals used in munitions. These women and children carried none. I'm seriously thinking What The FLICK.


yeah that was a couple days ago already.

where the bomber jet supposedly had mechanical failure. maybe flyed a bit and got caught in some sand storm.
the pentagon is looking that up.

but yeah the pilot and weapons pilot ejected and landed in two safe zones where the rebels had control.

like one of the leader rebels did to the weapons pilot, kissed him o the cheeks and hug and thank you etc.

not choppers.

[Nutcase:259]

no he means that a us helicopter that came to extract the downed pilots shot at the rebels

http://www.channel4.com/news/third-night-of-bombing-in-libya



Osprey aircraft came in, all guns blazing, assuming - as the American military tends to do – that this was hostile territory

[MegaGeeza22]

ion harvest why are you biggin up the muslim faith? yes 95% of them are kind honest people but so are all religious people i no. Religion is so untrue and scientificly proved as false it would be foolish just to take it up because a couple of your friends are muslim and kind.
go to a mosque and preach if it means that much to you.

[JABBERJAW]

"DJT and Jabberjaw you guys do understand that when you say to us europeans that america is better than us because of this and this and this"


I didn't say that at all, please quote where I said that or retract it.



I do however not like Some that are trashing the US. I didn't trash any country. The US has helped many countries in the past and will continue to do so, sometimes it will backfire, and yes, it will be in our self interest much of the time, as it is for other countries that try to help. Sometimes the help turns into hurt. But seriously don't say we are killing innocent people on purpose. These snakes like to hide behind women, children, whatever they can. And yes, there are mistakes, and yes, there are some aholes that are trigger happy. It is a very small amount of people, and every country has them

I do believe that we should get off the religion, or whose country is better bravado. This will just lead to some serious nastiness if it continues. I hope we get back to the original topic.


so, for anyone who said the forces should not attack ghadaffi, do you believe that we should just leave the situation alone? Let him keep killing people.

[Dark_Phantom_89]

Why do americans speak English


you talk to me with your english and hear mine and every other americans English

its not the same or anything else.

Americans voices and British voices with English are not the same anymore in saying it, writing it, etc

so scratch your part about where did america learn english.
scratch the part about an American is English.


ok...

Like when i was in France for the euro tournament. Saturn and Mr P had no connecting voice with English between america and Britain.
we use different vowels, verbs, nouns etc.
me and them had different ways of sounding and saying english period.

we speaked english, but the english is not the same

America is a melting pot of different people who came here from britian, germany, france, dutch, africa, russia, and so on. and guess what. when the English and american speaking language was established.

its nothing the same in great britian, scotland, prince of walse, canada, and where ever else the uk is influenced

and out of the whole lot of every man and woman i met in france.
they still had to say i needed to slow down on talking with the american english to catch up. Even Mr. P had to catch up. from regular English to learning slang
its not same from the uk.
my new friend from france told me he learned his English from the school they get their stuff from the UK. well if they got from the United States. different



And that same pride the British Empire so called had. when u were trying to take on the germans two times in a row in both world wars. you sure wasn't showing pride when calling out for help from the united states.

no more pride from the story of the british empire. or to stand correct i see no british empire no more. cause then also you would have kept Hong Kong, India, parts of South East Asia and Africa.
But whats the story... you don't

end of the story about the British empire for now. and the history of wearing those stupid wigs.

I'm sorry, but you are coming across as extremely narrow minded right now. You do realise that America would be NOTHING without us right? We're the ones who founded your country and brought our language to you. There is no such thing as an American language - it is simply English just spoken in a different way. You do not have your own language whatsoever. You criticise Britain, yet your laws and culture derive directly from ours, so you might as well be criticising your own country as well then. As for this "history of wearing stupid wigs," you sound like a typical person who has no idea how a parliamentary democracy even works.

England is a nation that has a very proud history and you dare to criticise that when America barely has 200 established years under its belt. Now don't get me wrong, I have a of respect for the US, and I know a lot of Americans both online and in real life, but it seriously winds me up when people try to criticise us. Get off your high horse and stop being so elitist.

[DJ Techno]

ahhahahahaha

ahahahahahaa
ahahah

again like i said know something about how america came to be.


in long, long, long, time ago. when men and woman sailed ships
some weared the most stupidest and ridiculous hair styles and a called it fashion. really i call it killing animals and waste of money.
when their were empires, kings, chivalry, colonies etc

english language might have spread across europe as a language to be universal for others to understand. so
a dutch can understand someone from england and and england boy can understand an african and so on.

But after Britian was given the boot out of America during the Revolutionary War. The United States took a piece from the book of Parliament democracy, twisted, took out the not necessary parts, which was a lot and used what was already written up and discussed and created the American Democracy. The Senate, Congress, etc

the Bill of Rights and Constitution is American. nothing British, nothing to close to roman.

america may have taken bits of what government is from england, but roman empire too. england took it some lessons from the romans. cause england at the beginning was just a group of mixed barbarians at the time and and then they grew over time to be like they are.

Welcome to how a pro american military man puts you down.

remember i said america is a melting pot
england, dutch, german, france, Africa, Ireland, Russia, China, Japan, and so on.

This young nation has flourished into something that has not been seen so quickly to do in history books.
This young nation is going to try and not make the mistakes that nations like Russia, Britian, China, parts of AFrica, Roman Empire and so on have had happen to them.

This nation as a whole still declared as a melting pot.
took parts of what england had, took parts of what the roman empire had, and everything else the more 60 percent america did on its own.

so like i said British english and American English totally different.

you want to say i said about American pride and elite and hi horse.

i didn't say that.
you went off on and on about the pride of the British empire.

and like i said. ok what happen to hong kong, india, other parts of south east asia, parts of africa.

ok empire shrank.

and i still didn't say anything else but that.

if the united states was colonized by the french first, and the king of france was acting jusst like king george back then. you would have an america you would still get an america. might be different. but it would be and stand for Freedom, and Justice for All


Every country can be proud of something.

but when u say that Americans are over showing our pride for stuff. at least we can back it up or show its not just pride. but america and Americans have taken stuff changed it or made stuff out of our own. like that Bill of Rights and Constitution.

that we helped the more proud and prideful nations too.
like Britian, like China in some way i forgot, some parts of africa, The French! the biggest out of them all in being proud and pride. I was in France and besides knowing the french 50 percent more or less dont like americans. But got pride and proud fullness on stuff that could be small to big.

we helped them.
and america appreciates the help back from those we help and call allies.

but get this straight.
me or al didn't say a thing about being over proudful about Americans and America ok

your thing about America would be nothing without england

still you can squash that.
cause england might not have been nothing if the roman empire didn't attempt many times to run the country over.

and squashed you saying im narrow minded.

squashed that i was mistaken about british pride. in world war one, the french being the french and britian. yall had pride too trying to beat the germans. and when the american marines or the nickname for the troops was "the doughboys" came in to help. that pride in both armies england and france wasn't kicking out better wins. ok. The Doughboys as american troops were called showed that the young and first time dealing with the germans in world war one, could handle, had handled, and got the job done for you. helped end the war. and still later corporal Adolf Hitler came around...

i'll get you some military books about the storys and information from the generals who themselves said about how they thought it would be so easy and had no problem pushing back the germans back then. Pride

Americans a proud nation. but we may go overboard on some things to be proud of. but to back it up and still have the humble american way. we do it.

America is not an empire. Its a democracy. something different then britian. and its spread out across the world how its different.

And the Democracy Lybia wants from the Dictator Gidaffi. Is democracy and freedom Lybia will get!
and If Iran still doesn't like it.
they can Piss Off!

the battle going on in lybia is to give the people a better way of life. without having another ethnic cleansing type, sadistic marxis type, scrapped old muslim leader who wants to kill his own people because he don't like them. Like Saddam. is going to get the hell out be it dead or judged and then dead.

Nato, the UN, the united arab/muslim community going to push out a dictator. with all forces working together. in some planned out way. without british people run up about pride and stuff. american war planes flying more times over the skys of lybia because of the numbers are greater than france and britian and have pride cause we got the numbers.

nobody on that field right now is being prideful right now.
and if i threw you in the military.
the us marines boot camp might not be a year long boot camp like Britains royal marines.

this ramp of pride is out the door.

[Dark_Phantom_89]

Ok, I'll answer this wall of text one section at a time...


ahhahahahaha

ahahahahahaa
ahahah

again like i said know something about how america came to be.


in long, long, long, time ago. when men and woman sailed ships
some weared the most stupidest and ridiculous hair styles and a called it fashion. really i call it killing animals and waste of money.
when their were empires, kings, chivalry, colonies etc

This is completely irrelevant. What has this got to do with anything? And don't laugh at me, it's very rude.


english language might have spread across europe as a language to be universal for others to understand. so
a dutch can understand someone from england and and england boy can understand an african and so on.

Again, this is because of the British Empire, not America. English spread across Europe because we are the most influential power within that continent. I believe that Dutch people have to learn English at a certain age now (can anyone confirm this?) Most of Africa understand English because of the various colonies that England owned over there.


But after Britian was given the boot out of America during the Revolutionary War. The United States took a piece from the book of Parliament democracy, twisted, took out the not necessary parts, which was a lot and used what was already written up and discussed and created the American Democracy. The Senate, Congress, etc

the Bill of Rights and Constitution is American. nothing British, nothing to close to roman.

How can it be all American when you clearly said that it has taken parts from the English democracy?


america may have taken bits of what government is from england, but roman empire too. england took it some lessons from the romans. cause england at the beginning was just a group of mixed barbarians at the time and and then they grew over time to be like they are.

I never implied that England was the first nation around. I'm well aware of the Barbarian Hordes and the Roman Empire that ruled England first. What I said was that led to the creation of England, which then led to the creation of America.


This young nation has flourished into something that has not been seen so quickly to do in history books.
This young nation is going to try and not make the mistakes that nations like Russia, Britian, China, parts of AFrica, Roman Empire and so on have had happen to them.

I never said it hasn't and I didn't actually criticise America in any way. I criticised you for slating Britain.


This nation as a whole still declared as a melting pot.
took parts of what england had, took parts of what the roman empire had, and everything else the more 60 percent america did on its own.

so like i said British english and American English totally different.

So now it's gone from America doing everything on its own to 60% of the stuff on its own?


you want to say i said about American pride and elite and hi horse.

i didn't say that.
you went off on and on about the pride of the British empire.

and like i said. ok what happen to hong kong, india, other parts of south east asia, parts of africa.

ok empire shrank.

and i still didn't say anything else but that.

Rubbish. I quote: "And that same pride the British Empire so called had. when u were trying to take on the germans two times in a row in both world wars. you sure wasn't showing pride when calling out for help from the united states.

no more pride from the story of the british empire. or to stand correct i see no british empire no more. cause then also you would have kept Hong Kong, India, parts of South East Asia and Africa.
But whats the story... you don't

end of the story about the British empire for now. and the history of wearing those stupid wigs."

You went from a fairly logical argument to trolling. I don't see any need for that.


if the united states was colonized by the french first, and the king of france was acting jusst like king george back then. you would have an america you would still get an america. might be different. but it would be and stand for Freedom, and Justice for All


Every country can be proud of something.

I understand that, and I'm not saying that America wouldn't have existed if another country had discovered it first. I'm saying that you need to acknowledge the fact that the reason America became so great was initially because of others.


but when u say that Americans are over showing our pride for stuff. at least we can back it up or show its not just pride. but america and Americans have taken stuff changed it or made stuff out of our own. like that Bill of Rights and Constitution.

60% remember? ;)


that we helped the more proud and prideful nations too.
like Britian, like China in some way i forgot, some parts of africa, The French! the biggest out of them all in being proud and pride. I was in France and besides knowing the french 50 percent more or less dont like americans. But got pride and proud fullness on stuff that could be small to big.

we helped them.
and america appreciates the help back from those we help and call allies.

I think you're missing the point. I clearly said that I respected the US in my post.


your thing about America would be nothing without england

still you can squash that.
cause england might not have been nothing if the roman empire didn't attempt many times to run the country over.

As I said earlier, I'm well aware of this and did not imply that England was the first nation around because I know that it wasn't.


and squashed you saying im narrow minded.

squashed that i was mistaken about british pride. in world war one, the french being the french and britian. yall had pride too trying to beat the germans. and when the american marines or the nickname for the troops was "the doughboys" came in to help. that pride in both armies england and france wasn't kicking out better wins. ok. The Doughboys as american troops were called showed that the young and first time dealing with the germans in world war one, could handle, had handled, and got the job done for you. helped end the war. and still later corporal Adolf Hitler came around...

I thought you said that you haven't criticised Britain in any way? Well here you go.


i'll get you some military books about the storys and information from the generals who themselves said about how they thought it would be so easy and had no problem pushing back the germans back then. Pride

Don't patronise me. I know a lot about history and I don't appreciate comments like these.


Americans a proud nation. but we may go overboard on some things to be proud of. but to back it up and still have the humble american way. we do it.

America is not an empire. Its a democracy. something different then britian. and its spread out across the world how its different.

I know that it is a proud nation and they do have a right to be glad for what they have achieved. All I was saying was that it wouldn't have been possible without England, that's all. I'm genuinely not trying to have a go at you or anything. I'm sorry if you thought that.


And the Democracy Lybia wants from the Dictaro Gidaffi. Is democracy and freedom Lybia will get!
and If Iran still doesn't like it.
they can Piss Off!

Well at least I agree with you here. ;)

[Aeroracer]

ion harvest why are you biggin up the muslim faith? yes 95% of them are kind honest people but so are all religious people i no. Religion is so untrue and scientificly proved as false it would be foolish just to take it up because a couple of your friends are muslim and kind.
go to a mosque and preach if it means that much to you.

i dont agree with that megaG....science dont prove a thing..it proves mistakes only.i read richard dawkins works..he is the best anti God guy on the planet he states all religeon is proven as crap and God is crap too just cos he found a few inconsistancies in the bible n koran.Kinda like me saying that a story i read about in the paper never took place cos they made some mistakes in date and places whilst writing it.

religon is the best thing since sliced bread or the worst thing since sliced bread.depends on the individual and what brain washing they are subjected to and by whome its done by.

religon is the underlining issue with our world today hidden under all the power and politics of the world.
science is just another weapon used by religon as faith has been used

@djt


well i was taught at school and read that america story went like this..

in baby language...

Some english dudes were grizzling and crying about they want to be protesants and henery the 8th the fat king who ate legs of lamb from the bone and threw them over his shoulder and said stuff like..OFF WITH HIS HEAD" said to them "if you dont like it ..in the kings name get outta my kingdom"
so the english winge bags left on some boats to america and settled there.
meanwhile others were setteling from france and spain and holland and a few other countrys but england seemed to be a major player.
everyone eventually spoke english apart from the south americans who stcuk with spanish and portugeese.
the english ran america as a coloney till the war of independance which the americans basically lost well apart from bunker hill battle.the english decided instead of war to grant indepenance and sold the land to the americans for really silly prices like 100 dollors for a state..

and thats it in very simple basic terms

american is english but full of spelling mistakes like the word colour they spell color and so on.i do agree that america's version of that word makes more sense but its in esence a misspelling on a national scale.

[ion harvest]

"go to a mosque n preach if it means that much to you". What? Did you take offence to what I said in defence of the Muslims or something. Sounds like your having a bit of a go man. Chill.
But yeah I have been thinking about checking it out. Who knows mate? I may convert yet lol.

Ontopic again. I have to agree with Jasmin-Jade she's right you know. Religion is the underlying factor that kinda rubs shoulders thw wrong way with the western brand of democracy. Emphasis on the word WESTERN. The greatest obstacle being that the major religions all teach Adam n Eve whereas western democracy teaches theory of evolution. You couldn't fathom how the theory of evolution winds up nations who practice their religions. Many Muslim Arabs fear that this western teaching will pollute and corrupt the education of their children should a western brand of democracy be introduced to their lands.

There's really so much more I can go into here. But I will say this to all who say religion shouldmt be a part of this debate - Your all wrong. Religion is an important part of this debate and without it you don't get anywhere near a balanced insight into this issue.

[JABBERJAW]

"Religion is so untrue and scientificly proved as false it would be foolish just to take it up because a couple of your friends are muslim and kind."

This is an insult to anyone of faith.

Science is proven as false all the time, Global cooling, ice age, nonono, not now, warming now, oh but wait, the solar flare activity corrolates exactly to the temperature change, lets ignore that data for about 5 years so we do not look stupid. Trans fat is good for you! OH, all of a sudden it is bad for you, terrible in fact, terrible enough to wreck Md's fries now :)

Science is completely unproven as well, but you need to ask yourself if you are taking the science side this question, "What is more likely?"

1) Everything we know, came from nothing at all

2) There is something out there that created this, so different from us we do not understand.

Of course both are completely impossible to prove, so taking a side and saying the other is proven wrong is foolish at best.

[SaturnReturn]

I'm going to close this because I've just come across it all in one go and it seems to have gone pretty well off topic, to the point that anything on-topic is pretty much being ignored. Can people please start taking a little more responsibility as members of the community for keeping things on topic in future please? It's really not too difficult. If it's not on-topic and is likely to steer the thread off course, then ignore it.


"My dad always said don't bring Religion, Politics or Football into a conversation in a pub, the same could be said of an Internet forum ;). The fact is that if a little community here can't agree on anything what chance has anyone else got. Just goes to show why we fight on a world wide basis."

KGB sent me the above message, which I think also sums up my feelings on threads like this in general, so I hope it's OK to post it. This forum is primarily here for us all to share our passion for WipEout. I think it can also be about what other common ground we have which we can share with each other. We can also disagree and can learn from each other's differences in a constructive way when we are interested to learn about each other. But I feel too many discussions on politics and religion are happening recently and ending up focussing on our differences in areas in which people's views just can't be changed, which will ultimately only be bad for a small community like this.