Phantom Wiper?

[xEik]

Hey, already a Phantom Wiper! With every rank upgrade one should ask himself: 'Am I a spammer? Are my posts useful? Interesting? Worth reading?'

Well, usually one can't have the answer, since it's not possible to have an unbiased opinion of himself but, at least, in an attempt to convert this post from something contentless into something minimally interesting, I'll explain what does the rank of 'Phantom Wiper!' suggest in Spanish or Catalan. ;)

When thinking of phantom speed I imagine a ship going so fast that a fixed observer will only be able to see a ghostly image passing by.

Due to the Spanish or Catalan translation of phantom applied to a person, when thinking of a phantom wiper I imagine a bragging wiper, one that shows off even when most wipers are better than him. It's just a coincidence but who knows... :P

To see what I'm talking about check www.diccionarios.com and translate 'fantasma' through the 'Español-Inglés' box.

PRACTICE LEADS TO PERFECTION !

[Dragon]

DJ Techno was first at being Phantom Wiper.......

[Lance]

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xEik: i don't believe that i've ever seen you spam. pretty much every post has been relevant and/or interesting

dragon: wrong. Rob and i were the first on this edition of the forums to reach that level. DJ T only got to that level before xEik because he used to be the worst spammer here, but he has since reformed. but you, dragon, have produced 7 spam posts in one session tonight. i am tempted to delete all of them. so far, however, i've chosen to comment on two of the first four. let's see what happens to the other three, hmm?


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[xEik]

I don't consider ranks to be extremely important. If there is a Phantom Wiper it has to be Al Startwell (aka ZOOLANDER) who, in fact, has achieved a rank that is much more significative: 'the king of AG' as stated in WipEout3 credits by the development team.
A forum is a clear example of a situation where quality is by far more important than quantity. Hence the cartesian doubt I started this post with.

What I was expecting was more feedback about the translation thing. :D Not that it is hilarious but I found it funny.

PRACTICE LEADS TO PERFECTION !

[Vasudeva]

Ooh, another linguistic topic eh? Interesting!

Well.

I don't know Spanish nor Catalan but it may very well be that the word "phantom" and "phantasm" have similar linguistic roots (I bet on ancient Greek but I could be wrong... it's so long ago already). In Dutch, we have the word "fantoom" for "phantom" and the word "fantast" for someone who fits the description xEik gave us about the bragging individual, i.e. someone who has in some way lost touch with reality, although in a more positive sense than it's described here.

On the first topic, well. I try not to spam too much myself. I have also made useless comments in the past. Lately I've been posting little not only because I don't have enough time but also because I feel that I'm often repeating myself, especially in re ships, weapons, games... I've all said it before. ;)

Peace!
V.

[DJ Techno]

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xEik: i don't believe that i've ever seen you spam. pretty much every post has been relevant and/or interesting

dragon: wrong. Rob and i were the first on this edition of the forums to reach that level. DJ T only got to that level before xEik because he used to be the worst spammer here, but he has since reformed. but you, dragon, have produced 7 spam posts in one session tonight. i am tempted to delete all of them. so far, however, i've chosen to comment on two of the first four. let's see what happens to the other three, hmm?
.

True I reformed, but it is still hard to see or even realise that your spamming.
To let you know lance, I'm still reading up on the subject.
Dragon, Rob was first, then lance, then Amigo jack, then one other?, then me, and now xEik!
Hey lance, some of Dragon's topics maybe spam, but some of them he is trying to point to me, as a friend and all. Lift ups? What I am saying is, he is trying to get in with the conversation, be with the people. What's the word for it?

But I will forever keep my grin, when I read this "he used to be the worst spammer here"
Which Lance you are right! the largest number of post or topics I have made. The percentage was almost close to 4.0 maybe 4.5, but never 5.0!

"'the king of AG' as stated in WipEout3 credits by the development team."
You know what xEik? If Al would like. I want to personally challenge his skills face to face!

[Lance]

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xEik: i'm sorry i haven't checked out the dictionary etymology, i'll try to get to it yet. at the time, i had other things to take care of.

Mike: it's great that Dragon tries to take part in the conversation. we should just make sure it's actually pArt of the conversation instead of something not at least referred to in the thread. dragon's comments to you, Mike, are often completely irrelevant to the topics they're posted in, which is why i've deleted most of them. they were just private conversation between himself and you about topics or non-wipeoutzone forums that none of the rest of us have any interest in. that sort of thing should be done via private messages in the wz forums or better yet, in your own IM or email exchanges. comments about his or your personal history on hoverrace or a couple of the other forums you've been on were strictly about your own personal interests rather than games or wipeout or web design or other such topics of general interest to all of us. making such comments is self-centred and is just being blind to what other people care about. that's why i deleted so many of your own early-days posts in these forums. dragon shows that same tendency.

concerning xEik's comment about the lack of importance of numbers of posts and titles attained thereby, i agree completely. though i was the first to hit 300 posts in the new forums, i say that titles related to nothing but the number of posts indicate nothing more than the fact that a member posts frequently; it says nothing about their actual contribution to the forums. quality is everything.

perhaps many newer members remain unaware of our old Wip3out Pilot's Association [W3PA] forums on EZ-Board. if you want to count posts, Al and Thrusty both have about 900 to 1000 posts each on that forum, Al's being under two different usernames. Rob has over 1300 there. all three of them had achieved the ''Ultra'' level. i only have about 450 there. Joel/science has um... over 600 and vincoof even more. Bernhard has over 400 posts total on both forums, almost all of which are on the old forums. AmigoJack has well over 300 there, i think, which are included as part of his total shown here in honour and remembrance of the history of the W3PA. the rest of us chose to show only the number of posts we've made here, ungrateful creatures-of-the-moment-bastards that we are. no sense of history. AJ has actually archived the old forums in case EZ-Board removes them for any reason, so that our history and all the helpful tips and information stored there will be preserved.

by sheer number of posts in both the old and new forums, Rob leads the pack with well over 2000, and pretty much every one of them said something significant to the interests of the forums or at the very least was a direct response to the comments of others. we should all emulate that example
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[Dragon]

I do indeed try to stay on topic, its just that i'm so used to the Fusion and Hoverrace forums (others to) that my posts tend to sometimes go off topic, i'm starting to get used to this one so just give it a little time, i'll shape up.

[Lance]

.
i appreciate the effort. we have been talking about this both in the forums and elsewhere for at least as far back as two months; i'm hoping for improved results soon ;)
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[Hybrid Divide]

I tend to not post too much, and most of it isn't spam'ish (I hope) :-?
I've been here since the W3PA, and I followed the W3PA forums long before I joined.
(I first found the place back when Caz: was running the show.)

I tend to request things a lot, and hopefully, I'll be able to return the favor when I'm able to find the bug in my boot screens and get them uploaded for you guys. Than-Ku all the same.

I just realized, I've only recently broken 100 posts. :lol:

But like xEik said, Quality over quantity, that definately applies here.

Have a nice day everyone! :D

Vagrant Logic

BTW: Is Al really mentioned in the Wip3out credits? is it for both Wip3out and SE? Or just SE?

[xEik]

He is mentioned in WipEout (I don't have SE). Those credits appear if you don't touch any button in the peresentation screen. I think it appears after seeing the demo and the intro.

I thought at least Ramirez would have answered to the 'Phantom Wiper' thing. :-?

PRACTICE LEADS TO PERFECTION !

[Lance]

.
Alfred Sartwell is specifically thanked in the credits for Wipeout 3.

Long live the King of AG Racing! :D
he's an inspiration. really.
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[AmigoJack]

who is ramirez?

didnt AL sent videos from his nose-bleeding-driving-style of the crafts to that team? i think ive heard it somewhere...

[xEik]

who is ramirez? :-? :) :D :lol:


didnt AL sent videos from his nose-bleeding-driving-style of the crafts to that team? i think ive heard it somewhere...
You heard it here. When I found out that Al was mentioned in the credits I asked him the reason for that and he explained how he sent them. If it was in the old forums or in these ones I can't remember.

PRACTICE LEADS TO PERFECTION !

[Lance]

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AmigoJack: in case you're not kidding us by asking, ramirez is pavel ramirez, also known as 'zargz' :)
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[AmigoJack]

:o (...)
sorry i simply cant remember all the real names in here. i think it would be easier when i could post some times in the tables...

[Lance]

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AJ: nothing to be sorry about.
speaking of the tables, if you have any times there, what name do you use? ;)
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[AmigoJack]

i dont have any
dont remember? no psx - only sega saturn or pc...

nevermind - the bbs is interesting enough :D

[xEik]

Buy a second hand one! Now! Just kidding :D Well, do whatever you want but I'm sure an old second hand PSX shouldn't be expensive. The games would be harder to find but I know of a place where WO3 can be bought brand new (66€ for a Wip3out + Ridge Racer 4 + Crash Bandicoot package).

PRACTICE LEADS TO PERFECTION !

[vincoof]

Vagrant: Al is mentioned in the WO3 credits as "Alfred Sartwell" and in the WO3SE credits as "Al Sartwell". It seems like he prefers his nickname ... ;)

xEik: pael can not read ALL topics ya know :) Anyway you could grab his attention with pm (if he reads them, not everybody does know the functionality exists).

Also, you still haven't played WO3SE ? omg. do you still study in France ? Whenever I jump close enough to Brest, I'll take the CD with me ! (if u still have your psx of course, not the ps2)

[xEik]

Also, you still haven't played WO3SE ?
No, although I've been looking for it from some time now (and to think that I saw a couple of copies in the fnac in Barcelona for a long time and didn't buy one). :roll:


omg. do you still study in France ?
Yes, probably just until the end of September.


Whenever I jump close enough to Brest, I'll take the CD with me ! (if u still have your psx of course, not the ps2)
Well, right now the only thing I have with me is a French edition of WO3 I bought in Geneve (the only thing that differs in this edition is the manual and the backside of the case). No PSX. But in a couple of weeks I'll be buying me a PS2 when I'll be in Spain for some vacation. So I'll probably come back with it. Maybe my PSX will come as well.

Glad to see you back, no matter if it's only for a while or you stay longer. :D
On a side note, while I'm away from my PSX, you should take the responsibility of controlling zargz. He has now a good bunch of the PAL records and I cannot try to retrieve them myself. ;)

[vincoof]

Whenever I jump close enough to Brest, I'll take the CD with me ! (if u still have your psx of course, not the ps2)
Well, right now the only thing I have with me is a French edition of WO3 I bought in Geneve (the only thing that differs in this edition is the manual and the backside of the case).

:lol: what are you doing with the French version ? Listening to the music of the CD ? ;)


No PSX.
Then I'll take mine with me ... along with two controllers :)


On a side note, while I'm away from my PSX, you should take the responsibility of controlling zargz. He has now a good bunch of the PAL records and I cannot try to retrieve them myself. ;)
Yes I've seen that he recently made insane things. I've already seen him in action before. I'm not really surprised. In fact, yes I am surprised ... that he's taken so much time to unleash his true power :grin:

[Task]

Yes I've seen that he recently made insane things. I've already seen him in action before. I'm not really surprised. In fact, yes I am surprised ... that he's taken so much time to unleash his true power :grin:

:D I wonder how that happened... Did the Oracol tell him that he isn't The Juan?
Did someone offer him a blue FEISAR on the one hand, and a red AG-Sys on the other?
Morfoxious sez: "You could take the blue craft, and piddle along in the slow lane. OR... you can take the red craft, and see how fast you can go."

[zargz]

AJ: ramirez raporting! 8)
and u no what? get that damn psx AND wo3se right away!!!!
in fact 2morrow I'ma gonna buy me a 2nd hand one for 50$ us with a stearing wheel !! :P
1 of the 2(psx) I had b4 is broken(I got a psOne aswell) but nOw I can link agAin !! yihaa!
I got 2copys of wopEout and wo3se(thank u roger!!) but only 1 of 2097 .. :cry: well well ..
xeik: remember there r a lot of places ppl speak spanish :D so the sayings differes ..
I didnt no that was boast .. :oops: :-?
J (task): soon u'll c with u own eyes !! :o :o :o
vince: nice 2 c an old friend from the 2097 times!
I told xeik not long ago that hiz english has gotten better and better. same goes 4u!
vasudeva: :-? :-? :evil: :evil: :evil:
lance: hi there! :D

2yall: sorry 4the late answer I have 2blame on J 4showing me the mighty
http://www.nukezone.nu
go there and get hooked u2!

[Vasudeva]

Um Zargz why are you mad at me? Because I beat your SE Classic times at Sagarmatha? ;)

Say, xEik, what does your icon mean? Is it Chinese or Japanse? My guess is Japanese but I could be wrong.

My suspicions are confirmed that Task is Jay West. Hmm, another serious contender... :o

V.

[xEik]

That is a Japanese kanji (a symbol that represents a whole word).
The kanji is 'shou' and it means prize. A stylized version of it is the logo for AG-5Y5 in 2097/XL.

You can see both, the kanji and AG-5Y5 logo for 2097/XL in the flash sequence located here.
http://www.kleber.net/wipeout3/history/2097/

The logo for AG-5Y5 in Wipeout3 isn't but the logo used in 2097/XL with stylization taken to the limit.
I'm sure you'll realise that those people who are telling us "let's be friends!" are indeed that kanji. ;)

[vincoof]

zargz: nice 2 c u there ! what do u mean 'bout my eng ? r yu sure its gotten better ? ;)

xEik: we have to thank aka-sho for the info, isn't it ? just to give credits where it's due :)

[Lance]

.
xEik: shou means prize? hm... what's the derivation for shoujo and shounen, then? those are usually used as adjectives or even as a sort of adjectival noun by we westerners to refer to anime intended primarily for females and males respectively. there don't seem to be many series that are intended for both. um... Gundam Wing would be one of the few, i guess. all those mecha for the guys and all those guys for the girls [ and.. uh.. *cof* for me :D] [and i like mecha, too!, so i get the full benefit]. anyway, are we to assume that children are considered prizes, treasures, etc.? interesting that the japanese culture would look at that as the primary characteristic of children. the english word 'child' seems to mean nothing more than a product of the womb. while i have a couple of neighbor friends who have children and love them extremely much, there seem to be a considerable number of americans who do not regard children as treasures. anyway, am i on the right track about the meaning of shoujo/shounen?
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[Vasudeva]

Could the word "shou" also be related to the fighting style "san shou"? And if so, what would it mean?

Peace,
V.

[Synthetic Consciousness]

Ah, more language questions! :D

Japanese and Chinese have tons of homonyms, and the only way to discern the words are by either the context of a sentence (if verbal), or the ideogram used (if written).

However, in this case, Lance, the word you're asking about is sho (note the lack of a long vowel); thus it's not really 'shou' (which means something else, 'prize' being one of them). At any rate, in this context, sho means 'young'. For example, shonen ('boy') literally means 'young in years'. Shoujo literally means "young baby".

San Shou is Chinese, and literally means "Free Hand". A looser translation is "Free Fighting".

[Lance]

.
so all those anime fangirls talking about bishounen are really robbing the cradle :D
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[Vasudeva]

Greetings,

Wow Synthetic Consciousness, I didn't know you were into Eastern languages. Respect! I heard they're difficult to master. I tried Korean but save for a few words and phonemes have forgotten all of it (probably because my relationship with the girl who was teaching me ended :D - she was nuts anyway).


San Shou is Chinese, and literally means "Free Hand". A looser translation is "Free Fighting".

Can it be compared then to a "freestyle" type of fighting? Also, what sound does <ou> represent?

Peace,
V.

[Lance]

.
i'm wondering if <ou> is a dipthong as in english; does japanese have those? i talked to SC about that last night; there is some doubt about whether it is actually supposed to be the long or short vowel in the anime terms, sho[u]jo and sho[u]nen. i suspect that he will probably look into it more when he's done with whatever music track he's making right now
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[Synthetic Consciousness]

Japanese has a few dipthongs, but very few, 'ai' being one of them. 'ou' is a long 'o' sound (as there is also a long 'u' sound). And it turns out that you are indeed right, Lance; shounen and shoujo do have a long vowel. :)

And I'm making tons of new music...lots of choonz in the works...just taking a short break to post. 8)

[Ed:t]: San Shou is a Chinese martial art containing elements of Muay Thai and Sambo (Russian wrestling). Initially taught only to soldiers in the army due to its frightening effectiveness; Wushu and Kung Fu are still favored due to their grace and fluidity, as San Shou is rooted more in strength.

[Lance]

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ah, sou

so children are treasures or rewards, and the anime fangirls are not so deviate as i thought. ^__~
.

[Vasudeva]

Greetings,


Japanese has a few dipthongs, but very few, 'ai' being one of them. 'ou' is a long 'o' sound (as there is also a long 'u' sound).

Ah, thanks for the explanation. In Dutch the /o:/ is represented by <oo>. I was just confused how to pronounce <ou> since my initial conjecture, /u:/, would be wrong as the <u> already represents it and my second guess, the diphthong /au/ or /ao/ would also be wrong because in transcriptions <au> is usually used to denote this (or so I think... correct me if I'm wrong).


[Ed:t]: San Shou is a Chinese martial art containing elements of Muay Thai and Sambo (Russian wrestling). Initially taught only to soldiers in the army due to its frightening effectiveness; Wushu and Kung Fu are still favored due to their grace and fluidity, as San Shou is rooted more in strength.

Hmm, as in wipEout, I prefer strength over grace :). Sambo was also taught to Russian soldiers, initially, I think. And Muay Thai seems quite powerful :p. Thanks for the explanation.

Peace,
V.

[Lance]

.
i prefer an equal balance of strength and grace. unfortunately, i usually have to rely on thought and technique only
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[Vasudeva]

Greetings,


.
i prefer an equal balance of strength and grace. unfortunately, i usually have to rely on thought and technique only
.

Lance, I'm beginning to suspect you of Auricom sympathies. All this talk about balance... sheesh.

;)

V.

[Lance]

.
the WO3 Auricom is relatively weak in both strength and grace. AG-S would be a more likely example of the combination. but in any case, we were talking about piloting characteristics, i thought. cos in ships, i usually pick Icaras, not known for grace. ;) the pilot has to supply the anticipation and precision to keep up with its speed, it's only real strength. Icaras gets a lot of its speed from being the most streamlined of the ships, and having perhaps the smallest frontal area, but its length that makes it so sleek also gives it a high polar moment of inertia, so it doesn't like to turn quickly. it's pretty one-sided, but in piloting, you still have to be pretty balanced, you can't just be too agressive and hammer through or you'll destroy your own ship, so it has to be combined with maneuvering and avoiding damage wherever you can. damage = slowdown, so unless you can destroy or damage ALL the opponents, you have to slip through with the minimum of friction. sigh... so obvious and easy to say, so hard to do.
um... yeah. anyway i do use weapons quite a bit in WO3 probably more than i should
.

[lunar]

The AI ships in wip3out (and SE) are so poor that you don`t really need shooter weapons, seeing that most races are all about just getting to the front and away with the minimum of damage. If I pick up a cloak, shield or reflector I just save it until I`m near the front and then when I hear "warning" .... " N gaged." If I pick up a kill-weapon I`ll unload it on something, but they`re not really needed once you`re past the level of clearing the game and onto trying to go fast, although quakes can be handy to clear the way and cut down on the risk of being shot if a straight`s coming up. I wonder why I like SE so much, seeing as races are mostly just time trials with a bit of a rumble on the first lap. If I get shot I just restart the race anyway, unless I`m angry, and then its VENGEANCE time.

Do you cancel or shoot weapons when you`re infront? I find if I fire rockets at an empty track my eye follows them and I crash (sometimes anyway). Quakes competely put me off as I can`t see the track.

In time-trial you don`t have to bother with all that..... but its just too much of me against the track. I don`t really like it.

Its funny that most people choose to compete in the race tables, when they aren`t really races. Could it be that most of us like the comfort of the..... *whispers*..... autopilot?

Even though its really faster without it. Really. Ahem.

[Lance]

ing it fair and square
.
once you're not a nooby anymore in WO3, there are very few races where the combination of track and class has an AI that is any trouble to beat. Stanza Inter Rapier comes to mind as one of the more troublesome ones for me. it becomes about the times. i sometimes use weapons to move an opponent AI craft out of the line i want to drive. once in the lead, if i pick up a weapon, i may fire it or drop it depending on my mood. i don't recall being affected by the path of a fired weapon, but who knows? sometimes toward the end of a race, i may retain a weapon to deal with ships i'm about to lap. or not. i may just try to slide by.

time trials are so emotionally at one level on and on that i get tired of them quickly.

auto-pilots are rarely very useful because most of the time it either runs slower than you would yourself or it leads to a crash.


it's probably difficult for a hardcore fan of a game to find another local equally hardcore fan of the same game. so
the times tables are what it's all about; to compete against the best pilots, whom you would probably never meet in real life to play against in person. that's what can make you really try hard to increase your own ability, to be more than you were before you started
.

[Vasudeva]

I must be one of the few pilots who likes TT more than RR. Of course, when everything is brand new and for the first weeks, perhaps a few months, the races and championships are very entertaining and you won't look at TT.

However, pilot vs track: it's that simple, that beautiful, too. In RR I often find myself frustrated by many variables I don't have under control: getting shot by a missile or two when there's no shield, cloak or reflector around, humping into some slowpoke AI ship in front of you as you lap them, finishing the track with ultra low energy and then seeing a ship you're about to lap has thrown a few mines in your face... Argh. OTOH some of these variables such as autopilots may have a positive effect but in the end I'm convinced that TT is a more "pure" form of racing...

Also, don't forget that you vs track isn't always true. You also fly against your own ghost. And I often find that a very stimulating factor, beating myself, although "myself" is, in this case, just a projection from the past. It's very zen. :)

Peace,
V.

[lunar]

Lance, on vec and ven autopilot is an instant discard of course. On rapier and phantom ts of course quicker without autopilot most of the time, but there are some sections like the Terramax and Altima tunnels which are always quicker with autopilot, mainly because you don`t have to slow down into the first corner, you just go full speed until you`re about to crash then hit the button. Of course there`s always the problem of where to disengage it, and that has its own problems. It takes away the skill of the game, although there`s quite a lot of strategy involved in where to gain the most advantage from it, and working out where you`ll be when it disengages, and in doing this safely. I use it less and less though, and on some tracks there aren`t any places where its quicker. All this reckoning is of course based on my skill level.

V: I agree with your way of seeing TT.... that`s why I love zone, and in TT there`s none of that constant weapon-cancelling business. It just doesn`t keep me playing though. Its not as intense for me as race or zone. Maybe if I could get close to some of your times I`d start to get interested in it. 8)

[Lance]

.
i think Jay [Task] likes time trials a lot, though the exact balance of his preference relative to multicraft races i don't know.
i almost never race time trial. i get bored to fast. the best thing about it is racing against the ghost of your own best time. it would be even better if i could race against the ghosts of other pilots. any future edition of Wipeout should include the ability to import time trial ghosts so that those who can't race directly in a live situation online, can at least see their opponent, however transparently. [and briefly for those who race against the ghost of markedly better pilots]

for some reason, i enjoyed TT better on GT than i do on Wipeout. generally, that's when i drove my hardest. though i recall some hot competition against the AI on certain courses.

Jeroen, there is a certain purity in TT, but that's precisely why it isn't like real life, which is probably the reason most people prefer to race against other visible opponents. you would probably like real-life events such as hillclimbs, though there are no laps, just one-way point to point up the mountain. there might be another competitor on the mountain at the same time as you, but they started long before or long after so you don't even see them, and they may not even be competing in the same class as you
.

[zargz]

rally is pure TT sport!

I like TT for the same reasons as V !

[Vasudeva]

Greetings,


V: I agree with your way of seeing TT.... that`s why I love zone, and in TT there`s none of that constant weapon-cancelling business. It just doesn`t keep me playing though. Its not as intense for me as race or zone. Maybe if I could get close to some of your times I`d start to get interested in it. 8)

Although my ego is flattered, certainly you are a good pilot yourself. You're Stephen Isles, right? (If not, who are you?) Together with Zargz and Jay (and a host of other pilots who regulary appear in the top 10s), you're in my hot list of contenders-to-beat ;) (Al is kind of out of my league, lol).

Peace,
V.

[vincoof]

Oh no, another TT vs SR thread ;)
both rocks, guys ! every game type has its own pros & cons that makes it unique. gotta love'em all :)

[zargz]

hi vince! stil no psx? ('_' ?)

[Thruster2097]

yeah, zargz knew I couldnt beat him at sagarmatha, and probably thought he was invincible.
THERES ALWAYS A BIGGER FISH!!! :lol: :lol:

nice to seeya around zargz, I think I STILL have your memory card! :oops:

[Wiseman]

any future edition of Wipeout should include the ability to import time trial ghosts so that those who can't race directly in a live situation online, can at least see their opponent, however transparently.Well, at least you do have the ability to race someone elses ghost ship by loading it off the memory card, it's better than nothing. I don't like the fact that saving your ghost ship takes up 2 friggin blocks though, I can understand why, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. That's why I don't bother saving my ghost ships though.


Anyway, the only reason why I prefer TT over SR in Wipeout 3 is because the AI in WO3 sucks. I feel like I'm going through a slalom course, avoid the road cones a.k.a. CPU ships and then race a normal TT until you lap them. No point, and no thanks. All it does for me is break up my experience, a lot like an FMV scene does in the middle of a adventure game.

Only time I really enjoy racing the CPU in Wipeout 3 is LS104, of course, now that's fun, intense, exciting, exhilarating, etc. ^__^

In other games, like Ridge/Rave/Rage Ricer or Gran Turismo, I actually enjoy racing the CPU far more than doing it alone.

[lunar]

Yes V. that`s me. You and Zargz are definitelty the Pal-masters. Just thank god Al doesn`t put in many times on SE.

Wiseman, the memory card issue on TT is definitely a pain. My PS1 card is full of other saves. Does anyone know of any increased-capacity PS1 cards that are reliable and work in a PS2?

[zargz]

I gave my kidbro a 2 'pages' ps1 memcard for his ps2 but it won't change page (>_<)

but on the psx it does. I got about 4-5 memcards 1 of them has 8 pages
it's an old 1- changes the pages vEeery slow! (>_<)p
I got 1 page for venom and 1 for vector TT!!
there r 2 trax I dont like (dont play) - MM and MT so I got place 4all the others ! (^_^)

I dont think 2blocks/save really Is an issue!
of course it would've been better with 1block/ghost but hey,
u cant get everything u want here in life right? (~_^)

[zargz]

yeah, zargz knew I couldnt beat him at sagarmatha, and probably thought he was invincible.
THERES ALWAYS A BIGGER FISH!!! :lol: :lol: :

venom

1 Stephen Isles United Kingdom Icaras 1:23:56
2 pavel Ramirez Sweden Icaras 1:23:92

w (@_@)w

rapier

1 Stephen Isles United Kingdom Icaras 1:37:84
2 Jeroen Meuleman Belgium Icaras 1:39:40
3 Josh Young Australia Icaras 1:42:24
4 pavel Ramirez Sweden Icaras 1:44:06

(O_x)


phantom

1 Jeroen Meuleman Belgium Icaras 1:51:56
2 Jamie Hancock United Kingdom Icaras 1:54:64
3 pavel Ramirez Sweden Pirhana 2:00:04

but this is pretty ok with the piranha huh? (^-^)b




nice to seeya around zargz, I think I STILL have your memory card! :oops:

yeah, I think so too .. (-_-)

[zargz]

MAN! altima is also gone!! (>_<")
u cant even turn u back and see what happens! ( '_')

arridos is @least stil mine (Xept 4 phantom) (^_^)v

these r my 3 fav SE trax! (^_^)b

[Lance]

.
how much difference is there between the best SE classic track times, using Icaras, and the best original 2097/XL times using Piranha or Qirex?


to go back for a moment to the relative competitiveness of the AI on WO3:
i have two of the Ridge Racer series, and in both of them [and presumably all games in the series], the AI is programmed to have one opponent still ahead of you just before the end of the race, and you always catch up to 'him' just at the point in the track where it is hardest to pass and most critical that you do cos if you fail there,. he zooms across the finish line ahead of you and you win nothing. the ''Heaven and Hell'' course in R4 is a great example of this. and it's one of my favourite game experiences
.

[zargz]

the classic trax were remade to 'fit' in SE I dont think u can compare the times with 97/XL.
dont think anybody tryed it yet anyway ..

[Vasudeva]

Hmm, it would be interesting to compare these times but I think not many pilots here still play XL/2097 that often because there isn't a competition going on here. Too bad that we can't insert our 2097 times :(.

Trash talking :): Zargz, Arridos is still yours... because I haven't posted a time there yet. *very evil laughter*

Rest assured though, right now I don't have much time to fly (and who says I'd break your time anyway ;)). Exams and other projects are totally consuming my time.

Peace,
V.

[infoxicated]

Hmm, it would be interesting to compare these times but I think not many pilots here still play XL/2097 that often because there isn't a competition going on here. Too bad that we can't insert our 2097 times :(.

xEik has actually done the work on this - I just haven't had time to integrate it with the rest of the site yet, or test it on the live server for that matter.

[Lance]

.
woxl times charts on the wz?! woot! that would really give me the incentive to work hard on all tracks. spilskinanke is stILL going to be a b****h though. manor top with earthquakes and no pretty city lights
.

[Vasudeva]

Spilskinanke is the ultimate wipEout track for me :).

Peace,
V.

[JABBERJAW]

The piranha is faster on my best times on 2097 by three seconds, but icarus is much faster than even qirex on ntsc(xl). there supposedly is a braking technique on the brake pads in 2097 that makes you go much faster, but I did not see it with the small amount of testing I did. If assayeah put up a single lap on talon's reach so we could see it on video rhat would show exactly how it's done. It also may not work on every version of wipeout 2097?

[Lance]

.
thanks, Al, that's what i wanted to know
.

[xEik]

What still bugs me is if Piranha team should be allowed in those hypothetical WO2097/XL record tables.
I'd prefer records only for regular ships but it is also true that to master XL/2097 means to master handling a Piranha.
Anyways, my point is that Piranha is too far ahead from other ships and I don't know if it is completely fair to allow it.

[lunar]

It would be much more interesting without Piranha, I think. We`d be searching for and arguing about :wink: the fastest ship on each track and class, without it being a foregone conclusion. There would be hours of fun trying out different ships. 2097 tables would be very very exciting indeed :D

[Task]

Well, ideally, there would be two sets of XL tables - Pre-Pirhana, and Post-Pirhana.
Of course, this would just double the number of tabkes, and probably be a bit ridiculous, but you simply can't have a drop down list for "craft" in XL tables if the Pirhana is in it.
Equivalently, if you do put Pirhana in the drop-down, there's really no point putting any other craft in there. Hence, one table for Pirhana, one for all the others. Times one table for NTSC, and one for PAL. Like I said, a lot of tables. But I really don't see any other solution.

[Lance]

.
i definitely vote for the primary tables being non-Piranha. though a Piranha set would be nice if there were room, it seems to me to be a secondary item.

[just before i got here, i lowered my best Qirex time on Valparaiso by another 1.2 seconds. but i missed damn near every boost pad! i suspect that improvement is possible
.

[JABBERJAW]

There really should be tables for non-piranha and piranha. The piranha is extremely difficult to control perfectly compared with the other ships, so a table for that would be nice.

[Wiseman]

O.K., looks like I'm going to have to be the odd man out here, but I must speak my mind.

I think it should either be '1 table for Piranha and 1 table for the other ships', or if 2 tables can not be had, then just 1 table that includes all ships. Otherwise we would be partaking in a double standard. Wiseman does not like double standards.

On the Wipeout 3 charts, it has been stated several times that anything that is allowed duirng a legit Wipeout race is allowed in the charts, why should we change this? What's next, someone who only races a Pirhana or Qirex in Wipeout 3 complains that the Vector tables are completely dominated by the Icaras, and that there is no variety and no way to beat them so it should be taken out? Heck, let's just take out all the ships and have everyone race a Feisar. Then we can call it BoreOut.* :p

When I come to the tables, I come to see and compare the real fastest times, not some pseudo fastest times that's a part of a defacto double standard.

If you want to seperate the Piranha from the rest, that's fine, but there should be a spot for the Piranha, one way or the other.



...Whoa, that post was overly serious...

::changes his channel back to his regularly scheduled self::

Hiya peeps! ^___^


*the Feisar thing is a joke, don't take it seriously. ;)

[zargz]

several tables yet stil 1(one) Database!
4 more choices to the 'select format' droplist - 97, 97pirhana, XL, XLpirhana ..
(^-^)b
isn't it?

[jmoid]

I'd prefer Piranha and Non-Piranha 2097 / XL tables.

[Vasudeva]

I'm a bit undecided on the issue.

My cold, wired brain tells me that mastering the Piranha takes a substantial amount of skill. Therefore it's not like a cheap cheat or something. Also, I hÃ*ve beaten my bro's Piranha times with a Qirex in the past (though with great difficulty) so it's not impossible.

However, my gut is telling me that anyone doesn't like the Piranha (Piranha is Assegai-like and I usually can't handle that type well) will simply be destroyed in the time tables. In W3 and SE it's still possible to beat an Icaras time with an Assegai or an AG if well-done. Piranha is simply so good that nothing will beat it.

But I will accept whatever is eventually decided.

Peace,
V.

[Task]

Oh, I see where you're coming from there Wiseman (and everyone else with the same opinion), but in WO3 all the ships are balanced. Sure, Icaras is faster, but you have to be able to handle the low shields and lack of turning ability.
The Pirhana isn't balanced at all, it was awarded at the end of the game so that you'd go back and play all the tracks again with the new Pirhana. Some people won't have unlocked the Pirhana, but a table without the Pirhana is not to cater to them, it's to enforce (what I think is) the idea behind the WZ-tables: anyone has a chance, flying they way they fly. If you're flying Pirhana, then to make the field level everyone else should be flying it too. You don't want to compare apples to oranges.

Of course, we're really all saying the same thing, there needs to be 4 tables.

[JABBERJAW]

I was saying the same thing as wiseman, not sure if it sounded that way though.

[vincoof]

hey zargz, if you mean THE psx that Sony is currently working on, I'm afraid I still not have one ;)

I always had a playstation (even though sometimes my friends/family picked it) and still have one. What I don't have is the time.

well wiseman, I have to agree about the wo3 challenging opponents. I remember posting something on this a while ago (probably at ezboard) which roughly described that it was possible to take 3 laps over the best computer opponent at portokora in phantom. And I'm sure alfred could take 4 laps ;)

[vincoof]

as for the 4tables debate, I know that infoxicated will torture me for saying that, but what about a checkbox ? When checked, all times would be displayed, otherwise only times with regular shipd would be displayed.

I think it needs a new site layout, and that's why infox would slap me, but I think it's more friendly than totally different tables. I already thought of it for WO3, where there would be a checkbox for every craft, and then you could for instance compare all times made by ppl racing AG-Sys. The other problem being, in that case it would be fair if each pilot recorded a time for every craft, instead of his best time ever, and the table size would be theorically multiplied by 8 (for WO3). hum... does it make sense ?

[xEik]

I'm sorry but it doesn't make sense. There is no way I can save my records for all the crafts unless I note them on paper or have 8 different Memory Cards, one for every team.

Besides I think this could be qualified of bloat. Some tables don't even have enough people to fill the first 10 places no matter with what ship the records are done. Why get even more (probably empty) tables?

[infoxicated]

I think Vinny has a point, actually (now that he's back I have to agree with him once just to lull him into a false sense of security!)

It wouldn't be too hard to do a drop down list with ship names in it so that you could select track, type, pilots and ship. It would just be set to all ships by default, but at least you could sort it and compare yourself on an even playing field.

Like at Arridos in SE - An Icarus would be the way to get round it at top speed, but if you aren't the man at handling it then you have to use something a little slower but better handling. It would be nice to put your hands up and say "hey, I can only get round that course in an Auricom, but at least I'm the fastest guy around there in an Auricom."

I'd do that.

Well, for Arridos I would - I can get around Manortop much better in an Assegai than I can in an Icarus, too, so I guess I'd like to compare myself against the others who prefer to use a slower class of ship.

It wouldn't mean duplicating the tables, just putting an extra bit of code into where it sorts the thing out.

hmmm :) :-?

I wont make any promises regarding site layout because real life always seems to come back and bite me when I do intend to work on it. However, having given up on a freelance project to free up my life a bit, I'm hopeful we'll have a re-vamp before our third anniversary :)

[Lance]

.
we can already compare times made in the same ship just by looking at the table results. i do this all the time, comparing my times made with team 'x' to other team 'x' times. i think i object to a major re-write of the tables on the basis that there is so much potential for a substantial period when they've been transferred of their being f'd up. possibly for months, as they were after the previous major format change, with many times in the wrong tables. however, it helps that we currently have two people with code access so that if one does not have time to take care of discrepancies, the other may. the idea of variable display as though it were a spreadsheet has a certain appeal, but this may be total overkill since our own built-in computer brains can do this without a code change. it may still be worth doing to produce more maintainable code. i know nothing about psp, but css based xhtml supposedly allows easy format changes while leaving the data unchanged
.

[vincoof]

Oh, a kind word from infoxicated. Hurry up, hurry up, who has a camera ? ;) j/k

In fact you hit the point foxy. I think that database queries for that are not very hard to setup, but that's something to setup anyway, which means some effort whatever little it is.

xEik : I know about the multiplication of empty tables. But with good database management I think the loss can be minimized. Though, it would need a new structure which is rather the big problem I was thinking about.

As for the "my mem card does only store the best record" point, it's a problem that is not solved for the WO2097 and Pirhana/Piranha times. If 2 tables are created per version (1 table for regular ship, 1 for super ship), that means that everyone would have 2 records on their memory card, which is not likely to be the case unless pilots have duplicated their savegame. Personnally I kept regular ships for SR and Pirhana for TT (back in the old days I was able to challenge zargz) but I doubt everyone did something like that.

That's why I'd rather recommend creating only 1 table, but with the ability to check/uncheck a box (or a dropdown list as gently proposed by foxy) so that ppl not concerned by certain ships would ignore them.

huh oh. I really need to learn how to make shorter posts...

[xEik]

My concern is not with queries or tables (I'm sure the size of the forum database is much bigger than that of record tables). MySQL can handle everything we could ask for our amount of users, ships, tracks, modes and versions. My point is that I consider it to be bloat. I sure won't be posting Goteki times for Porto Kora, and anyone who tries to compare his Goteki times there will find himself quite alone.

The Memory cards thing: If you want to keep separate records for Piranha and regular ships in 2097 you only need a memory card with 2 separate files. However, WO3 doesn't allow this. Only one WO3 file per memory card. Even without that, 8 savefiles versus 2 is an easy choice. ( I wouldn't go for 5 savefiles in 2097 either).

In any case, it's Infoxicated who must in the end decide what makes it into the web and what doesn't. I'm always glad to help him in the coding (php that is, I'm crap at CSS).

This reminds me that if 2097/XL tables make it to the main site, we'll need a special stylesheet for them that fits the game atmosphere. And I know my current skills wouldn't suffice. :P

Regarding what Lance said about two people having code acces, I remind you that my Admin status is just for the board, not the whole site. :)

[JABBERJAW]

One way to fix this would be to allow multiple time entries per person as long as it is with a different ship for each entry. Then you could see how you compare by ship versus each person by either scrolling or selecting which ship you would like to see times for. IF you do not select a ship it just will show you all the entries, So you could see how your assegai time compares with your piranha time on the same table. There would be way more entries this way as well, up to 8 more a person though I doubt most people would use every ship. for the xl tables there would be a maximum of 5 diiferent ship entries per person.

[Lance]

.
xEik: ah, so

i would have no desire to enter a time for every ship [even though a Feisar championship in Phantom class might be interesting. {vector Feisar races would be too slow to be interesting}]
we could use a bit more complexity of results to keep a higher level of interest, if that would actually be the result
.

[infoxicated]

My proposal wasn't for folk to enter a time for every ship, it was only for you to be able to compare yourself against others who used the same ship to achieve their time. There's certainly no way I'd have it the other way, since it is bloat - with the times being mostly blank beyond the top 20 it would be a lotta lotta effort for nothing, really.

[vincoof]

ok, so point 1 : include a checkbox/dropdown that selects crafts would be ok.
and point 2 : allow multiple records for a same pilot with different ships would not be ok.

That's fine, since it was how I imagined it in the beginning :)

[Lance]

.
in that case, i reiterate that we can already do comparisons for any given ship just by using our eyes and brains. why complicate things unnecessarily. unless it's just for the sheer pleasure of improving the code, of course. the one thing we definitely all seem agreed on is that we want tables for 2097/XL and separately available results for Piranha
.

[vincoof]

But for a race like Porto Kora, the top 10 may be owned by eg 8 Icaras records. And when you want to compare with AG-Systems for instance, you will scroll down tons of Icaras before seeing few AG-Sys records. That's not very handy.

[Lance]

.
um... since the results are displayed 10 or 20 or 30 or etc. places at a time, scrolling isn't really necessary is it? if it were, would a mouse pan down be slower or more difficult than selecting an option in a text box?
.

[Wiseman]

Lance has a point. It's a lot easier/faster to just move a scroll-wheel than it is to go to a box, select the craft you want, hit go. I mean, even if you were only working on a paltry 640*480 it wouldn't require that much scrolling.

[FoxZero]

the only problem with scrolling is that youd have to scroll up and down a lot while short-term memorizing the times to compare them. if they were all just on one screen you could analyze them more in depth.

honestly though, i cant see the necessity of such a feature. id rather have something that calculated the differences between the times like in gran turismo where it shows how many seconds behind/ahead everyone was at the end of a race, or some kind of general statistics that showed where the track times were being updated the most in, so that people could compete against each other more directly.

as far as im concerned the interface is efficient and straightforward, and needs no modifications. id rather have features than navigation tweaks.

also going back to the time trial debate for a moment, in motorhead you could race multiple times in a race and save multiple ghosts. one time for kicks i raced against myself 10 or 12 times so there were 11 transparent cars driving and crashing all over the place and myself with the newly refined driving line. a racing field consisting entirely of myself.. wow, what a rush!! this would be awesome for the next wipeout :wink:

[Lance]

.
competing against 11 of my own ghost times would be fun. kinda difficult to see the track unless i were in first place though; it can be hard enough in W3O to see the track through just one. but i'd still like to try it.

____

what scrolling? i just checked the tables for how much i can see, which turns out to be the top 27 times for a class including the full page headers [which are only seen when viewing the full racetime results in vector class]. if i give the down button a couple of clicks i can see the top 37 times on one screen. this is at my usual screen resolution of 1280 x 1024.
[actually there weren't even that many posted times, just positions where they might be posted if we had that many competitors. i wish we did have that many.]
but in any case, i suppose it isn't about what's actually needed, but about what is most aesthetically satisfying to most of us. as long as different code doesn't force me to go through extra steps to see what i want, i have no objection to adding the options some people have suggested.

i suspect that most of us look at the times tables because of our inner compulsion to compete, rather than how many spreadsheet-like options the data display has, but if those options add extra entertainment value for someone, cool.

[vincoof]

I do totally agree with the fact that it's not *needed*. And that's why I first thought infox would never grant the idea.
Anyhow I still think it could be *handy*.

[FoxZero]

handy, yes.. i have no objection to having it, i just have a more optimistic wish list i guess :roll:

[vincoof]

You're right about the time differences. Usually I tend to compute differences myself whenever I want to know how far I'm ahead/behind, but it would not be bad if computers did it for us :)
Though, I see two way of computing it : use _the_ best score as the reference (like in Gran Turismo) or use _your_ best score as the reference (and thus some differencs may be positive, other may be negative, unless you're first obviously).