Doubles league again anyone?

[OBH]

Some of you may remember the doubles league we started way back when. (original threads here (http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6020)).
It was an awesome idea, easy to organise, great races..... except we then started the WipEout World Cup and it came to a grinding halt :g

Well Im looking to start it up again! :nod:rock but thought id chuck a thread up in here to see if theres any interest in the idea before making a thread in the arena.

If enough people want it, ill get it going :)

PlannEd start date:
Late August / early September

Teams:
Yeldar(the-machine)2097 & KGB
Dark_Phantom_89 & Woopzilla
LurifaxFlux & DreamyElf
???????? & ACE-FLO
F.E.I.S.A.R. and KIGO1987
dariusz1230 & triboy
LOUDandPROUD & IDReaper
jasmin-jade & slimjim
R3BU5ER & Imre92
Kieren1888 & carlos69nash

Interested:
Amorbis, chesterknight, billychanxtr33m, andybob, brainbeat, Unctuous, Greenix, Kaori?

[ACE-FLO]

In :g weps on, right?

[OBH]

i was thinking on changing the format a bit, so youd have to race each team with weapons on and off, but thats something to work on a later date, dont want it to be too many races.

what made this awesome the first time was it was very quick and easy. (as supposed to coordinating 2 teams from half way around the world to meet at specific times :eek)

[ACE-FLO]

all good, weps off is cool too :)

[brainbeat]

I'm in and need a double.
P.s remind me about this I am terrible at keeping up . I've still not done a green race yet. I hate having to work as these events allways on when I'm working:(

[kaori]

Good luck OBH, I tried to start Xpand league, like double ladder, but easier & more flexible. Season two is playing this summer with just 4 teams.

It's hard to create a solid league, I think it's not a good idea to multiply events.

[OBH]

@kaori
maybe we should join forces? :)

@brainbeat
i found doubles matches much, much easier to sort out, as long as your partners online the same time you are, your already half way there :beer

[kaori]

Yes I agree 8)

[LOUDandPROUD]

Though I haven't really been playing WO now for a while, this is tempting. I have to say though, my experience with this the first time around was soured due to the two different teammates I had often being flakey and/or unresponsive, making it difficult to coordinate matches. You guys know who you are! :P (I still love you both though. :nod :g ) That and the fact you might be running green races means that I think I'll have to pass. I really hope you're able to get it going again though, because when it worked, it was a blast! :+

[OBH]

there wil be weapons mate :)

[KIGO1987]

Im happy to do doubles again. What i do not appreciate is being used and then my doubles partner buggering off later on and not having the common curiosity to return PSN messages during and after events. This has happened twice with my, my doubles partner in WOHD as well as Gran Turismo PSP as well. One a Frenchman the other a Kiwi.

[ACE-FLO]

Right, you're my double partna, Kieran :g settled :D lock n load son, these weps are beggin to be fired! :D :D :D

[KGB]

Like all player made comps, it gets really hard to organise these things. The one that I thought was the greatest success was ASTRAL. Put your name down to enter that week, simple as that. Not counting AVALON of course which is the same kind of thing.

My partner has retired so I think I will have to pass on this.

[KIGO1987]

Who was your doubles partner KGB, i forget?


Right, you're my double partna, Kieran :g settled :D lock n load son, these weps are beggin to be fired! :D :D :D

Let me get my PS3 back first. That might be quite some time. When i get it back im quite happy to toast some baguettes if you know what i mean;)

[ACE-FLO]

Holy schitt man you are wreckless :D with weapons I mean :redface: Man get on their case to fix it up, I wanna do some tag team take outs :D

[KIGO1987]

I wish there was a friendly fire feature in WOHD online, that would be good.

[kaori]

I know I write an off-topic message.
But I don't understand the tag kaori and djkyoto (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/tags.php?tag=kaori+and+djkyoto) under the thread.

[yeldar2097]

I'll go with you if you're up for it KGB ^_^

[ACE-FLO]

Kaori - Just reading through the thread, and I ask, could it be that you and DJKyoto were double partners with Kigo at some point last year?

[kaori]

My mate is leungbok, djKyoto is the mate of Kigo

[KIGO1987]

Kaori was my doubles partner in Gran Turismo PSP on the GTPlanet forum. Began just before my banning here and lasted for about a month after.

djkyoto was my WOHD double partner.

[LOUDandPROUD]

Im happy to do doubles again. What i do not appreciate is being used and then my doubles partner buggering off later on and not having the common curiosity to return PSN messages during and after events. This has happened twice with my, my doubles partner in WOHD as well as Gran Turismo PSP as well. One a Frenchman the other a Kiwi.

Yah, that was pretty much my experience, as well...not fun.

[SaturnReturn]

To avoid confusion, keep thread tags useful and relevant. They're not for personal jokes or jibes either. I'm going to start tidying them up in various threads as I notice they're now a bit out of hand too. From here on out I will also start making use of the infraction for abuse of the thread tagging system if necessary.

[KIGO1987]

Yah, that was pretty much my experience, as well...not fun.

Indeed. djkyoto did it. But i really wasnt particularly pleased by Jonathan/kaori using me as a doubles partner and then discretely disposing of me, followed by never returning my messages on the PSN and else where also, really not a courteous thing to do at all, only happy to talk to me in the Arena chatbox when there where other people in the chatbox there.

Im going to be doubles partners with Ace-Flo this time, as he actually responds to the messages i send out to organize meets and races and doesnt dispose of me and buggers off when ever he pleases. What a good mate does :)

[LOUDandPROUD]

I wish there was a friendly fire feature in WOHD online, that would be good.

Yes! That would be fantastic! :+

[UB3R~JKP]

heh! Doubles sounds awesome!

[KIGO1987]

you can go with Ace if you want UB3R in the mean time. Prob wont get the PS3 back til August at this rate. or even later if its not repairable.

[LurifaxFlux]

Sounds like great fun :)
I need a teammate though

[ACE-FLO]

JKP & ACE, sounds GREAT! Thanks Kigo, I'll be honoured to race with you when you get your PS3 back but in the meantime, it's JKP & ACE...

Sheesh kebabs !!! You aint been racing long at all JKP, and now you're faster than me :bomb good thing your on my team innit? :g

[IDReaper]

I'd be up for jumping into a doubles tourney. I've always found this idea interesting since xpand team warm-ups. Gotta settle back into a ship first, feels like I'm leaning Qirex. Dunno who would race with me though? I won't shoot you, I promise. :)

[kaori]

Indeed. djkyoto did it. But i really wasnt particularly pleased by kaori using me as a doubles partner and then discretely disposing of me, followed by never returning my messages on the PSN and else where also, really not a courteous thing to do at all, only happy to talk to me in the Arena chatbox when there where other people in the chatbox there.

:eek Hey stop, you talk about Gran Turismo PSP, a challenge (not online, just offline) on GTPlanet which was canceled after the first training race !
How can you forget that ? Were you are unable to read GTPlanet forum ?
I don't spend my life to play videogames, but when I have to play with friends (Avalon, Xpand, WipEout Pulse), I take the time to do it.
You were miraculously unban from WipEout Zone, and you seem to neglect people from WipEout arEna.
Now just forget and ignore me if you can't understand that. It's better than write ungracious words behind a PC screen.

[UB3R~JKP]

Cheers KIGO :D, that's awesome kindness right there my friend! I hope your PS3 Gets fixed up as soon as possible man!




Me and you then ACE, this should be exciting! And please stop spouting your lies about me being faster than you :lol its embarassing :P.

[KIGO1987]

:eek Hey stop, you talk about Gran Turismo PSP, a challenge (not online, just offline) on GTPlanet which was canceled after the first training race !
How can you forget that ? Were you are unable to read GTPlanet forum ?
I don't spend my life to play videogames, but when I have to play with friends (Avalon, Xpand, WipEout Pulse), I take the time to do it.
You were miraculously unban from WipEout Zone, and you seem to neglect people from WipEout arEna.
Now just forget and ignore me if you can't understand that. It's better than write ungracious words behind a PC screen.

It was canceled at a later date. But it was a weekly challenge, after the first week you didnt get back to any of my messages on the PSN at all, the event was still going. I sent you more messages over an extended period of time, you still didnt get back to me. Anything would of been courteous.

Say what you want tbh. But at least i have the common courtesy to respond to every single message incoming on the PSN and here, and believe me i have alot of messages. Even when im busy i make sure i have the common courtesy to get back to and respond to peoples messages, even at times when i really do not want to.

My "miraculously" unbanning here has nothing to do with you not returning my messages when we where doing double races. Thats between Rob and I.


JKP & ACE, sounds GREAT! Thanks Kigo, I'll be honoured to race with you when you get your PS3 back but in the meantime, it's JKP & ACE...

Sheesh kebabs !!! You aint been racing long at all JKP, and now you're faster than me :bomb good thing your on my team innit? :g

Ill give you an update when i might get the PS3 back. It'll be well into August before any comes. Hopefully sooner. Ill give UBER an update too

[OBH]

Can we keep keep this about doublEs matches please? :)
Been enough drama in my threads this week thanks :beer

Im planning on starting this in late august / september by the way, plenty of time to get it all sorted :)
If you know people who play WO but are relatively inactive here, ask them if they want to get involved too!

Also anyone who had bad experiences with AWOL partners last time, if you'd like another crack at it this time, Ill try my best to get the race format polished, so hopefully whoever you pick will enjoy themselves enough not to bail on you this time:g

Shame it didnt work for you last time L&P, PROUDtoH8YOU with IH8YOU was such a hilarious team name :beer

[Feisar31]

Who was your doubles partner KGB, i forget?

That would be me. 8)

KGB, you should team up with yeldar before he changes his mind! :g Don't worry about me...

I'd be happy to help with organizing things again, although I doubt you'll need it. I can update the ranking calculator at least, if you still want to use that. Good luck getting Doubles up and running again! :+

[OBH]

Ahh it was you who did that ranking calculator :) If youd be willing to post its formula here id love to see it.

Always thought it was an excellent idea, just never knew how it worked :beer

[KGB]

I'll go with you if you're up for it KGB ^_^

Yeah cool, no kissing though. I went out with a girl from a public school once, in the back of my mind I always thought she was slumming it. This will no doubt feel the same. :D

[OBH]

HAhahahaha! :g:+:+:+

[ACE-FLO]

Oh my word :D i lol'd so hard, i dropped my doobie :D

K, so its Uber-JKP and ACE-FLO, we dont have a team name though - do we need one? ANd starting in September? Aw... well does that mean that Xpand is all alive and kicking til then? awesome stuff if so... :)

[AspenExcel]

Oh damn, starting in September? I'll be at school then and without a PS3 until I'm at home for breaks/holidays. Sorry, I guess I'll have to pass on this one. Good luck to the rest of you.

[yeldar2097]

Feisar you're back ^_^

Long time no see :)

I remember our little partnership. You were the brains and the ideas and I was the...well I can't think of anything other than fluffer. Publicist sounds a bit too much like I was doing a good job of it lol :P

[Feisar31]

I've been around. ;)

As I remember it, you had the idea and then I went off and wrote a small bible on how everything should work. Then we posted about a third of that, and you did the rest. :g

OBH the formula I used is on the ranking calculator page (http://www.animara.com/wohd/ranking.htm), at the bottom. (I'm glad I put it there because otherwise I would have forgotten myself...)

And LOL KGB! :clap

[kaori]

Don't forget Multiplayer Elo Calculator (http://elo.divergentinformatics.com/) by TorquedSoul, I like it because you are able to play races with 2, 3 or 4 teams in same tournament!

[SaturnReturn]

Torqued Soul was also working on the YAWL (http://divergentinformatics.com/YAWL/) site for all sorts of league and ranking shenanigans. He closed it to finish working on it. Perhaps could be good to see how far he got with it? There's a thread somewhere too so you could try a search.

[LOUDandPROUD]

Shame it didnt work for you last time L&P, PROUDtoH8YOU with IH8YOU was such a hilarious team name :beer

Oh, man...yes, I loved our team name. Too funny.

Would this doubles reboot consist of ALL tracks or just the original WOHD tracks like the first time? I ask because I'm absolutely terrible on the Fury tracks, ha ha.

[OBH]

All depends really, gonna have a think about it over the weekend. Its an awful lot of races if we include all the fury tracks.

My first idea was to set up a racing calendar - weeks 1 & 2 = a certain series of tracks, weeks 3 & 4 = different series of tracks, and so on, that way the races are kept short, and the tracks are mixed up a little bit :)

early days though.


Oh damn, starting in September? I'll be at school then and without a PS3 until I'm at home for breaks/holidays. Sorry, I guess I'll have to pass on this one. Good luck to the rest of you.

Damn, now yeldar has rudely abandoned me i was going to ask if you wantd to race! Guess ill have to convince amorbis to get his racing shoes back on :)

[Dark_Phantom_89]

I'll be up for it :+

[kaori]

I like this idea haydn.

Exemple :
9/1/2010 20.00 GMT, serie 1 : available teams join if they want. If there are 5-6-7-8 teams, 2 groups are done (according to ELO ranking)

9/6/2010 15.00 GMT, serie 1 bis... teams who are playing in serie 1 are always welcome

9/15/2010 17.00 GMT, serie 2...

[OBH]

Umm, i dont quite understand :)

[kaori]

It's not the teams that have to arrange a tournament between them (current format of Xpand and old doubles league).

You said you will decide a serie of tracks for weeks 1 & 2, so you annouce it. (VK, CP, Sol2 etc)

Then, 2 solutions (or 3).



You impose some rendezvous for playing this series, and the teams, if they want, join one or several dates.
You impose nothing, each team that want hosting a serie create a thread in a social group : "X Team will host serie 1 day D, Time T (GMT)" and any team that want join this serie.
You place one or two rendezvous but the teams are able to purpose other dates

[KIGO1987]

If Doubles are going to successfully work this time round and be more effective for everyone, several things need to be considered more than anything else.

Including;

I - Common communication between double partners. Including PSN, WZ, and or other means of communication to be replied to, or at absolute least be attempted to be replied to.

II - Common communication between double teams. Including PSN, WZ and other means of communication to be replied to, or at absolute least to be attempted to be replied to.

III - A thread that is solely for double arrangement times/suggestions, giving a possible one week in advance time arrangements between teams before a schedule meet up.

IV - If there is a problem with a meet up between double teams or double partners. FFS! communicate with each other. Nothing more pain in the arse attending an organized meet and one team or the double partner has pissed off with out informing the other, because that is just inconsiderate.

[F.E.I.S.A.R]

Sigh...And ACE said that he would be my doubles partner...if it wasn't for the distance between us.Guess it was never meant to be after all...
Fracking hell there are not many active members from Southeast Asia or at least Asia(or is it?)...Anyone from Asia?(preferred timezones non-DST:GMT+7 to GMT+9)

[KIGO1987]

Maybe Ace was quick with his words. We can talk this over on the PSN or something.

I know what you mean about timezones and locations. Im the only person in Perth, one of a very few people that are active in WOHD that are in the GMT+8 timezone. 85% of the players are either in the UK or France. The other 15% is the Asian, US and AU players.

[billychanxtr33m]

im not very good but would love to compete if a teamate would have me

[OBH]

i like your thinking kaori :+ :D

you might want to think twice about being ACE-FLOs partner KIGO, you wouldnt want him to say hes going to be there then not turn up:beer:beer

old habbits die hard ey ace? ;)

[KIGO1987]

Well if he doesnt pull a kaori on me ill be all fair dinkum and happy.

Ace said he would be a few peoples partners as well:S Need to sort this out. ill be having a vc session with him tonight to sort this out. You can join if you want to Haydn if you have a spare bluetooth headset on you:)

[LOUDandPROUD]

Pending the final determination on rules and format, it looks like I will be pairing up with IDReaper. Likely team name: PROUDlyReaping :rock

[KIGO1987]

Hmm well i dont know what the entire story is with Ace atm, but if that all goes to shiit. I would like to pair up with someone in the same timezone as me. GMT+8. That could be FEISAR from Singapore, or KANDANG from Malaysia.

Should find out near enough. :)

[Amorbis]

I enjoyed the previous doubles league and I'd like to participate in a new one. Sadly I don't think I'll be getting my old partner eLhabib back as he doesn't appear to be active on here or on the PSN so much any more, I hope he's OK.

I'll participate if anyone is interested in a rusty, out-of-shape Piranha pilot to race with. ;)

[Aeroracer]

i would like to play doubles..i will be able to get a partner as i used to play a lot of this in the old days.....

[OBH]

Okay ive updated the "interested" list, so feel free to try to snap yourself up a partner :)

Going to be a while till it begins, but cant hurt to be prepared! :beer

[DreamyElf]

i've never raced before in double league...
but the avalon experience was great so i guess this will be too!^^
so yeah sign me up OBH. :)

[SaturnReturn]

You considered a different points system to the standard HD one OBH? I was always a little unsure about the standard scoring system. Giving 8 points to first place means that a team could be made up of the best player who wins every time, and a complete n00b who barely avoids DNFs. That always seemed a bit wrong to me, i.e. that in a doubles/team game, a team could win solely on the efforts of one player. Imagine if that one player ghosted the whole time or something and never got rammed or missiles wouldn't lock onto them.

So yeah, I'd suggest a review of the points system for individual races. Perhaps something even as simple as 7 points for a win instead of 8. Feel free to ignore me though as I more than likely won't be taking part anyway, but though I'd throw that out there.

[Dark_Phantom_89]

Saturn makes a good point. I reckon the points for the finishing positions should be changed, as it'll only be the person who finishes 1st that counts.

[KGB]

Giving 8 points to first place means that a team could be made up of the best player who wins every time, and a complete n00b who barely avoids DNFs.

What are you trying to say? :)

[OBH]

Alright, its a point well made.

I think the best way to do it would be to ask each player to mark up the positions of each race, like so.



OBH - 1 2 2 3 1 3 4 4
Amorbis - 2 1 3 1 2 2 1 1
KGB - 3 3 1 2 3 1 2 2
Yeldar - 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 3

(like the realistic positions ive made up? :beer)

And then once the race has finished award points like this :


1st. 8 points
2nd. 6 points
3rd. 5 points
4th. 2 points

People happy with that? I think the sum of 2nd and 3rd should only be 1 point more than the sum of 1st and 4th personally, but of course im open to suggestions :)

[kaori]

It will be the game "don't be last", players who think they are slow won't enter in the competition. ("if I'm always last my teammate will hate me")

And if you create a new marking scheme for 2vs2, you should create an other barem for 2vs2vs2 & 2vs2vs2vs2.

But, the difference of points between two players only can be degressive (or no change) : higher ranked you are, higher are the differences.

It's the case in all racing competition : F1, WRC, Nascar, MotoGp, Motocross, V8 Supercars, SuperGT in Japan... & in the games too : F-Zéro GX, Gran Turismo, Modnation Racers... And in football/soccer too (win = 3 points, draw = 1 point, lose = 0 point)

So :


Original marking scheme of WipEout HD 8.6.5.4.3.2.1.0 is okay
7.6.5.4.3.2.1.0 is okay too
Medals ranking (like Olympic Games) is okay (but special, it's like (for WipEout) 1st = 900 points, 2nd = 30 points, 3rd = 1 point)
8.6.5.2 is not okay.


I prefer original barem, just 1st pilot have one point bonus, it's normal.

Imagine a 8-races tournament where it's always :

Team A 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Team B 2 3 2 3 2 3 2 3
Team B 3 2 3 2 3 2 3 2
Team A 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Hey pilots from Team B, you are always 2 behind the same guy and you are unable to catch him ? You were 2 vs 1 oh ! And you want to win the match ???

And in tourney with 3 or 4 teams, this "advantage" will tend to disappear

[KGB]

The race times between 1st and 4th in the doubles was never that great. 6 points seems a big difference for what could of been only a couple of seconds.

You could change it completely and go the other way with the points system. What if the lowest score wins. You get 1 point for first, 2 for second, 3 - third, 4 - forth. The one with the lowest score at the end wins. Easy to add up as well. ;)

EDIT: Now I've read it back, it might be the greatest idea I ever had. Simple, fast, fair and fun.:)

[KIGO1987]

Right, enough of this poncy scoring system.

When are the fixed dates, that the doubles League going to resume?

[OBH]

@KIGO
No fixed date as of yet, had planned late august / early september (as it says on the 1st post :beer)

@Kaori
I really like 2vs2vs2vs2 but it then means more organising. My plan was always to keep it 2vs2 with no more than about 6 races -- easy to organise, easy to race :)
I very much like the idea of having different points awarded based on your rank, though im not sure what method to use....??

@KGB

The race times between 1st and 4th in the doubles was never that great. 6 points seems a big difference for what could of been only a couple of seconds.
The problem is though, as mentioned, is with the current scoring system the grand total of 1st + 4th = 12 points, while 2nd and 3rd = 11 points.

As its meant to be a team event, it doesnt quite seem right (at least to me) that one player could win it for his team alone, so long as he continues to finish 1st.

We could make it really simple and have it :


1st - 4 points
2nd - 3 points
3rd - 2 points
4th - 1 point

This way 1st + 4th = 5, as well as 2nd + 3rd, a single position could mean the difference between winning and losing, and the points awarded are close enough to mean the match can shift very quickly from one team to another

Any thoughts???

EDIT:
Okay, so far i tihnk a fairer scoring system along with the Ranking Calculator (http://www.animara.com/wohd/ranking.htm) used in the last doubles tournament is best.
If the ranking calculator confuses you, read the notes at the bottom :)

[kaori]

...

@Kaori
I really like 2vs2vs2vs2 but it then means more organising. My plan was always to keep it 2vs with no more than about 6 races -- easy to organise, easy to race :)

...


"2 vs 2" format is THE problem : too hard to find a rendezvous for 4 players. After two months, only 2 or 3 teams keep motivation for the competition.

It's why I think "don't plan meetings, just plan the date, & feel free to join"

Rendezvous this friday 19.00 GMT, join Xpand channels (PS3 textual chat that lot of wipers know), & look how many teams are presents.

One team is coming ? Sorry no tournament tonight.
2, 3, 4 teams are present ? Nice, let's go, have fun.
5 teams or more ? Ok, we do 2 pools and enjoy too.

Simply use ELO system from TorquedSoul (http://elo.divergentinformatics.com/) for general ranking, no calendar to create, no imposition for teams (I believe 2 or 3 substitutes could be welcome).

[KGB]

Well you just robbed my idea Haydn but did it the other way round, did you not see it :)

[OBH]

I just ignored your crazy idea, and invented my own brilliant one :beer


"2 vs 2" format is THE problem : too hard to find a rendezvous for 4 players. After two months, only 2 or 3 teams keep motivation for the competition.

This confuses me, we were able to rendezvous 8 players, sometimes from half way round the world for the WWC. I dont remember ever having trouble organising a doubles match before.

Another problem is that if we do decide to use the rankings calculator, I wouldnt know what do if every now and again we have a 2vs2vs2vs2 match...

EDIT:
Okay, i checked out the ELO calculator, and that is actually pretty good, we can simply put in multiple teams in there is a 2vs2vs2vs2 match.
I think were onto something....

i knew joining forces with kaori was a good diea :)

[kaori]

With Multiplayer Elo Calculator (http://elo.divergentinformatics.com/)

exemple :

(after 2 tournaments)

http://i36.servimg.com/u/f36/12/06/70/68/th/kanop10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=189&u=12067068)

[OBH]

I like it.
Is there a particular value your ELO ranking should start on? I was just going to use 1 :)

edit:
Ive had an idea :)
Seeing as the ELO calculator needs no specific values (only finishing positions), im tempted to make the doubles league cater for all game modes!!
Example:
Week 1 - Weapons On
Week 2 - Eliminator
Week 3 - Zone Battle
Week 4 - Weapons Off

[kaori]

1500 is the medium value (and the start value)

Good idea to play eliminator & combat zone

[Amorbis]

I'm happy with the ELO system if we get to play eliminator, but I was never too good at Zone battle. I'm not so bothered about in race points, I'd stick to the scoring already in HD and then work out the ELO points afterwards to keep it simpler.

[KIGO1987]

Ive just given leadership of the Eliminator League to Haydn. Since he has some good ideas for it :donut

So expect this to be included in this series of double events.

[SaturnReturn]

8.6.5.2 is not okay.


Yeah, I agree. It means that you would only have to ensure the worst player comes last and then you win, without having to worry about the 1st place man. I think it's less balanced.

To be honest, I just think that that 1st and 4th should get the same as for 2nd and 3rd. That way it stays close and no-one is out of a chance from the beginning. Granted no-one will want to come last, but if it's spun the opposite way, then it means that there's always a chance that gaining that one extra place has an impact and both players make the same contribution.

Don't forget it's not just ability I'm talking about. There have been instances back in the day (not so much now), where some people seemed to get a much better boost off the line every time, and tonnes of other stuff that I've since forgotten about. Things like that would have less of an effect if 1&4 get the same points as 2&3.

Alternatively, just use some scoring system where a narrow defeat isn't as bad as a massive defeat. Maybe some of these scoring calculators do that already (don't really have time to check - soz).

As for organisation - I'm not sure any way of doing it will make it easier if it has to be arranged in advance. Too many people want to play but just don't have time or can't be bothered. So if there's say, two days a week where teams can meet up and just play then that could be good. You could have a squad of 8, but make it always doubles, but say no player can play two games in a row (or some other arbitrary rule like that), to share out the fun and also make it fairer. Then no one team could rely on the skill of one player too highly and you could probably ignore the other stuff above in the long term.

[OBH]

Problem im thinking of, is if its a squad of players we may as well all join the Xpand league.

Im not saying thats a bad thing :) but its not a doubles league anymore then, and ill just be treading on Xpands toes...

Cheers for making the point about the scoring system though Sat :) very insightful.

[SaturnReturn]

XPand kind of has a season doesn't it? Could operate outside of that. I think it also has the element that teams can play any time for a kind of perpetual ranking, IIRC. Probably don't RC though.:lol

I remember doubles being reasonably easy to organise, although in fairness TCK did most of it after the first few matches. But XPand was a pain because people seemed to have lost interest. It usually ended up being doubles races most of the time anyway, due to availability and the fact that there were some teams with only two players anyway. That's really the key - people just need to think before they sign up and make sure they'll participate and are willing to organise.

Another option - do doubles for a certain period. Then join up doubles teams based on their final positions at the end of that period to make XPand teams so that you have very balanced XPand teams and people can race with new folk and get to know people they wouldn't normally talk to. (Yeah I know, no-one will like this option).

One more option ( I most like this one) - don't predefine teams at all. Just do weekly doubles events like the ASTRAL events used to be. Everyone signs up ahead and is paired up. Up to say, 16 players total? They race in two pools, and then do a winner's pool and, er, not-quite-as-win-ers pool based on final positions in the first round. Basically ASTRAL but with doubles. Maybe that's what kaori was getting at earlier? I seriously think the less organisation the better, and that way people wouldn't have to commit to a long term league either. If they do two races and then can't be arsed, then it can all just roll on without them. It'll be a whole different thing each week too - less predictable. You could always do it for a month and then get the top 8 players to face off in two doubles semi-finals and a final, or something like that.

[yeldar2097]

Ooh I like the ASTRAL one, I miss ASTRAL.

Then we could have a really complicated system whereby pairs are chosen at random from the group who sign up, then have a breakdown of individual players' records in a kinda "how good a team player are they" league table, then have a big event at the end (whenever that is) where the 8-16 top players of the league have an epic doubles mashup, then send the winners a trophy or give them a voucher for a romantic trip for two....in Skegness ^_^

This is what happens when you have nothing to do all day except think and talk to your animals.

*Ignore all the above, I'll be happy whatever happens (although I do like the ASTRAL one) :beer

[UB3R~JKP]

Seeing as KIGO has his PS3 back, I have made other arrangments to join with another partner ;). He has not joined the forum yet but will do soon :D. Will let you know the team as soon as possible OBH!

[Dark_Phantom_89]

We're up for it, so sign us up OBH.

Team: Dark_Phantom_89 & Woopzilla

Team name not thought of yet.

[LurifaxFlux]

Team: LurifaxFlux & DreamyElf :)

[LOUDandPROUD]

This seems to be spiraling out of control somewhat now, no? I mean, aren't we supposed to be re-inventing this league into something simpler that will make folks want to join up and stay interested? Because many of the scoring systems/rules/formats that are being considered so far have been complex and confusing (to me, anyway), with some even leading to what was once intended to be a team-driven doubles league turning into anything but. Crikey, after reading Saturn's proposals I felt like curling up in the fetal position and crying to mommy. :P No set teams? Random teams instead? That would mean no amusing team names, no strategizing, less camaraderie and no rivalries. And if there's some teams that are virually unbeatable and always at the top, who cares? Isn't that how it is in all sports? I mean, what would baseball be without perennial contenders like the Yankees and Red Sox to hate on? I don't mind not having a shot at being the best, as I will simply strive to be one of the best of the rest. Seriously though, it's all turning me off a bit now...this is supposed to be fun and I feel like it's being taken a little too seriously and that a little too much thought is being put into it. As far as the scoring, I think we should just use the simple 1,2,3,4 (low score wins) or 4,3,2,1 (high score wins) format and call it a day. I'd really love to see this league come to form and really take off, and I really do appreciate the intentions and efforts of coordinators like OBH, but I fear that if we don't just use the K.I.S.S. method (Keep It Simple, Stupid) then it won't last. Just my 2 cents...(more like 5 cents, but anyway....haha) Take it for what it's worth. (not much, I suppose...lol) :)

[kaori]

Simple 1.2.3.4 (& 5.6.7.8 if 3-4 teams) is the easier, I think we should be agree for that.
We have to do this league simple ^^

[SaturnReturn]

@LOUDandPROUD: I was really just throwing ideas out there. I personally think the doubles league was mostly fine (in theory) as it was apart from the one issue with the scoring system. There are really just two issues that made me start wondering about how to actually make it successful:

1. How to make it not basically be the same as Xpand league, because in truth, I think I only actually ever played doubles races in that, for one reason or another. Also, XPand is already a doubles league in some ways, or has that capability built in. If teams want to enter as pairs then they can, and there's an ongoing league where people can take part and do matches at any time.

2. In general people don't commit.The doubles league WAS simple. It couldn't really have been much simpler. I think it was a great idea, and the matches were fun but if we're really honest it wasn't all that successful. About 70 % played only 2 matches or fewer, and 25 % played none at all. Given how many teams were involved, that's quite a clear indicator that people can't/don't really commit long enough to make a go of something like that. Then the first season of Xpand fizzled out despite kaori's best efforts - also because of commitment issues. Compare that to Avalon where people can turn up and play at any time, or ASTRAL where people can play week by week without longer term commitment - both of those were far more successful than the doubles league ever was IMO.

So I do think the doubles league needs something different, both to set it apart form Xpand and to make it adaptable and successful in the longer term.

[IDReaper]

Well, I have an idea.

Open Doubles

This would be a weekly challenge similair to the tt/sl challenges. Every week a new tour would be posted, any tracks/speed/vehicles/restrictions/etc. Then participants would post their individual availability for matches. When a group of people large enough to satisfy atleast the minimum of 2v2 a time will be set and teams from the player pool are decided. The players decide their individual team names then and scores for each team are posted once their individual event is over. Players may participate as many times per week as they want with any teammates or opponents.

At the end of the week the results post is fully updated with all teams and their scores vs. other teams. The new challenge is posted, but the previous challenge remains in effect for what would be an encore event of sorts(May need its own thread?). During this additional one week time overlapping the new challenge, participating teams in the previous event may challenge any other team that post a result for that challenge.

Like this:

Week 1: Venom Tourney(Qirex only): Vineta K, Sol 2, Ubermall R, Metropia R

Week 2: Encore(Reminder, you must have posted a result to participate)Venom Tourney(Qirex only): Vineta K, Sol 2, Ubermall R, Metropia R
Week 2: Phantom Tourney(Unrestricted): Vineta K R, Sol 2, Anulpha Pass, Sebenco Climb

Regular weekly = fun vs matches for any who are available
Encore event = grudge matches, organized team events.

Probably not perfect but I could see a number of people being able to participate on there own times in double matches while the one with more time to comit can organize set team vs team matches in the encore events.

I probably made that sound terribly complex lol, just think of it like the sl/tt challenge. You have to participate in one before you can do the other that's all. Ideas, suggestions?

EDIT: Allow me to add this isn't a ladder tourney like expand, it is a week by week competition with a casual sort of matching system. No grand champion-ing going on here, just random fun =)

[OBH]

I like your idea IDReaper to cater for different speeds / ships / as well as game modes, not to dissimilar to the SL challenge.

Heres a quick, early mock-up of what I had in mind using the 4 currently registered teams, imagining that the league begun on 26/07/10 :

=====================================

RANKINGS


Team ELO Ranking Games Played

ACE-FLO & KIGO 1500 0
Yeldar2097 & KGB 1500 0
Dark_Phantom_89 & Woopzilla 1500 0
LurifaxFlux & DreamyElf 1500 0

After each game post the results, and I shall use the ELO Calculator (http://elo.divergentinformatics.com/) to work out the new standings.
Heres a picture from Kaori as an example of how it works. (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=189&u=12067068)

SCHEDULE
Teams can play as many games they chose each week.



Week 1 (26/07/10)-
6 Race Tournament / Rapier / VK, AP Rev, TJ, Mod, Sol2 Rev, CP

Week 2 (2/08/10)
Zone Battle - Sol 2 Rev

Week 3 (9/08/10)
6 Race Tourny / Phantom / CP Rev, Moa, Uber, Uber Rev, Amp, Amp Rev

Week 4 (16/08/10)
Eliminator / Rapier / Ubermall

Week 5 (23/08/10)
6 Race "Weapons Off" Tourny/ Phantom / ModR, MoaR, AP, Seb, Seb Rev, TJR

Week 6 (30/08/10)
Zone Battle - Anulpha Pass

Week 7 (6/09/10)
6 Race Tourny / Phantom / Mod Rev, Moa Rev, AP, Seb, Seb Rev, TJ Rev

Week 8 (13/09/10)
Eliminator / Phantom / Metropia Fwd "minimum 4 teams"



=====================================

To see how the rankings change visit the original league thread. (http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6020)

Suggestions people? :) Another idea i had was players had to pick a single ship to use, so we dont get hoards of Triakis players during eliminator, or loads of feisar during zone battle.

[Woopzilla]

Yea, I think keeping it simple and short is key here. What I've noticed in Xpand is that people aren't all that keen to race 2x8 Race Tournaments.

Also, not having any 'MUST PLAY' matches is what will keep the thing going. It's only all too frustrating when your team is ready to play but the other team never is, it's good to make it 'stall proof'.

I wouldn't mind a one-ship-only rule. :)

EDIT: And something sort of related/slightly off topic-ish: I think we should make a habit of only using one chat room on the PSN. The avalon lounge seems to be the default place for people to go to... I think there isn't any need to create further league channels where you keep having to send invites and so on. If we have a common meeting grounds, then it will be even easier to setup spontaneous matches with people who you don't have on your friendslist. I chose the avalon lounge because it seems to be the channel that the vast majority of players have access to already.

[kaori]

Suggestions :


use ELO calculator each monday
use one chat on PS3, maybe not "avalon lounge" because it's used by lot of people (a chat is limited to 16 persons)
use a social group
one or two substitutes by team who want

[Woopzilla]

Hmm, I think it's ok to use avalon lounge because even during avalon weekends it doesn't reach max users that often... you can pop in and say "hey someone want to do doubles?" and then you can go to your own private chat for further setting up or whatever. :)

[OBH]

Thats what i had in mind Whoop. Somone can simply make a "doublEs loungE" chat room for everyone to use, but the Avalon one is always a good one to see whos online generally.

Im kind of warming to the idea of having a substitute or 2 if the team would like to do that. My initial plan was to not allow that, because as there isnt a single mandatory race, teams can pick and chose what competition they'd like to enter.... meaning they dont need to compete at a frantic pace..... however there will undoubtedly be times where 1 team member is busy for a week or something, so yeah, a substitute is allowed. Good call Kaori :+

Ive also made, though not finished a social group. Ill make it mandatory to join, and subscribe to certain threads.
Im happy to continue organising it despite no longer being able to compete, but someone else will need to do the organising via psn.

Also tempted to make the actual league thread similar to the SL/TT Hall of Fame thread -- i.e only I can post in it for results etc, and use the social group entirely for organisation and banter :beer

edit:
infact, the more i think about it, the more a substitute might be a smart idea. To keep teams wanting to enter each week, if the initial 2 dont really want to do zone battle, just get a 3rd or 4th person involved too who loves zone battle :)

[kaori]

Good points for Avalon lounge like official chat room, I agree.

[Amorbis]

I'm available again as a partner due to OBH's unfortunate exit. I'll be happy to start a new team or join as a substitute if that idea goes through.

Though with subs it's not really a doubles league, more like a small team league, but if it helps get the races done I'll support the idea.

[OBH]

Im glad someone appreciates the key word being "doubles" :)

[Dark_Phantom_89]

I like the idea of playing all of the game modes - makes it unique :+

[SaturnReturn]

@OBH - I think that looks like a good day to work something. It's different to Xpand and offers a good level of flexibility.:+

[OBH]

Excellent!! Well, fight among yourselves for partners :) Then ill begin once we have enough interest.

Sweet.

[KIGO1987]

Will this thread be used as the primary line of communication between doubles teams?

[OBH]

No. The plan was to use this thread for ideas, and to build interest. Once there's enough people ready to go ill make a thread in the arena & a social group for communication between teams.

[UB3R~JKP]

Right, The tema for us is...



UB3R~JKP & Kieren1888

Team Name: DynaMiK/GrimoirE


;)

[triboy]

Now make some space for pilots from eastern Europe ;)

dariusz1230 & triboy

[KIGO1987]

Another team here;

F.E.I.S.A.R. and KIGO1987

This should work out well compared to other doubles partners.

Both in the same timezone :)

-

Opening times to race is still undecided yet.

[OBH]

Cool, thats 6 teams :D whats happened to ACE then if KIGOs gone with F.E.I.S.A.R? I know Amorbis is free if you still need a partner ACE.

Might be able to start this sooner rather than later if you guys are all ready :)

[KIGO1987]

I think Ace is going to go with another partner in the same timezone as him.

My doubles team will be good to go in a couple of weeks, k :)

[LOUDandPROUD]

I spoke to IDReaper today and can confirm that we are officially in. As stated before, our team name will be PROUDlyReaping. See you on the tracks! :rock

[Aeroracer]

me and slimjim we are gonna be called .....

the london blackcabs

im sure we can live upto that slow but at least we wont get lost on the track and we are not cheap at all :P

[ACE-FLO]

My doubles partner is Uber-JKP :)

We're the Twin Tigers... Ubers' Northern Fist technique with my Southern Fist style, and you guys are shaw bros classics. This is AG-Kung Fu, tag team style!

Beware our furious nature, and pray you get a good start :D

(damn, we're so getting lynched now I said that :paperbag)

[Aeroracer]

ace..hasnt uber got keiran1888 as his partner already or was i imagining it..:dizzy

[ACE-FLO]

No, you didnt imagine it. Uber and I decided that we will double up, this was discussed a few hours ago with him. He's happy with the arrangement. If Kieran1888 (my friend a i affectionately refer to as Keeza) needs a partner for doubles, I got someone in mind... just need to check with them ;)

[Aeroracer]

is uber fast ..i dont recall playing him..

[ACE-FLO]

Uber-JKP: A quick study, fast, crazy in a FEISAR, and can lessen your shield energy without weapons in seconds ... furthermore, I trained him, and now he's better than me :) I love this guy :rock

[carlos69nash]

How does this work?? Is it a point scoring system, knockout or both?? I want in, ill find a noob to join me....

[Aeroracer]

:nod Mmmmmmmmm
try zeldar..he is noob..im sure with little practice he may be able to get around the track........:nod

[ACE-FLO]

Bloody heck!!! Speak of the devil! I had you in mind Carlos, to pair up with Kieren1888... wow, hope this can work! You've trancended, so don't class yourself as a noob, you and Kieren1888 will be good as doubles partners imo :) go for it :rock

[carlos69nash]

haha thanks ace:)
i was looking at the teams before and some of the names i recognise and raced against... they have kicked my ass on the track lol. but yes if i can get some1 to team up with then im in, its not about the winning but the taking part :D

[ACE-FLO]

Aaah, that's the spirit man. :) you got the right attitude mate, you'll go a long way with it :)

[DreamyElf]

its not about the winning but the taking part :D
exactly!:+
i'm average at best myself so i'm here just for the fun :)

@ace
i think it will be a tight battle for last place between your team and ours! :lol
btw, it's good you team up with uber, i had uber and you in mind as partners but you were already booked and then lurifax offered himself, i'm happy though because he is very fast! :)

[OBH]

Im confused.
Only a few pages back UB3R~JKP said he was with Kieren1888?

@carlos69nash
Mate, read through the thread if you want to know how it works, thats what its here for :) The first page also has a list of people who said they're interested but dont have a partner as of yet, just try contacting them if you need someone.

Excellent to see a couple of new teams entering. Its only the end of July and this is already starting to fill up nicely :D:+

[carlos69nash]

hey
Sorry but i missed that link...:)
Just read through the rules now.
Need to find a partner....

[F.E.I.S.A.R]

Paired up with KIGO1987.Team name unconfirmed...yet.
Feel like classing myself as a noob.Don't really know why...

[Dark_Phantom_89]

None of that "n00b" talk Feisar - you're a great racer, end of :g

Need to get back into Phantom now after spending the week updating records for the lower speed classes.

[R3BU5ER]

I talked to 'Imre92' about the double league and he said he read it on wo arena. Is that the same league? My french is horseshit and his English is not that good. So I can't check arena to confirm. But we understand each other fine. We're thinking about coupling up for a doubles. (If it's the same league we are talking about.)

[kaori]

He surely read the old doubles league thread. I will update it when the new competition will start. So you can pair you.

[R3BU5ER]

That would be very nice Kaori! :+ Thanx in advance

[Aeroracer]

When is this league likley to start.....

[OBH]

Welll everyone seems keen to get going, so Im happy to come up with a schedule that starts next weekend if thats what people want? :)

Oh, and R3BU5ER i have no idea if its the same one as i dont post on wo arena. This one is a different game mode each week, Ive not seen a league organised like that anywhere else so it shouldnt be too hard to work out if its the same.

Weather it is or not, you should get involved :)

[KGB]

:paperbag. I'm in London next weekend and the week after that I'm camping, so I won't be able to make it. Big G can maybe find someone else to play with if he would like, I won't mind :|:D

[UB3R~JKP]

Could you remove my name from the list of players, thanks. I can't compete.

[OBH]

:paperbag. I'm in London next weekend and the week after that I'm camping, so I won't be able to make it. Big G can maybe find someone else to play with if he would like, I won't mind :|:D

Theres no set dates for when you have to race. In a similar vain to the SL Challenge there'll just be a game mode / speed you have to adhere to for that week, you can race as many times as you chose to so even if you miss an entire week you could easily make it up on the next.

your choice though.

[Challenger #001]

Are there any set dates? I might be able to make it.

[OBH]

id planned 1st september from the beginning, but DP has a good idea hes working on.

[Aeroracer]

cool..gives me some more time to practice..i didnt reliase how crap i was at this game till i played phantom and couldnt even see the track properly..just all blurry images..

[F.E.I.S.A.R]

Paired up with KIGO1987.

Null as of now. I won't be racing unless I can find another teammate/buddy.
Criteria:Must be in GMT+6 to GMT+10 time zones. If not possibke to have a partner from these time zones,I'm still fine with others from other time zones.

[R3BU5ER]

So the league starts the 1st of September?
I paired up with Imre92, but he will be on holiday untill the 6th of September...so is it possible for us to start then? Otherwise would anybody like to race the first weekend with me.

At what time will the event start?

[OBH]

Woah, realisd ive been neglecting woz recently.

Been difficult to keep enthusiasm up for a game i cant even play! I'll get a post together and pm it to dark phantom or somone so he can post it in the arena. I dont trust myself to update it regularly enough at the moment :)

[Ace3cube]

Don't worry, there are always ppl following with enthusiasm ;>

[OBH]

Good to know :)
I just hate to keeping the people waiting!

[kanar]

aaargh couldn't read all these 14 pages, but anyway I'm up for that. Seems like FEISAR and I are paired now!

[carlos69nash]

Kieren1888 if ur reading this could you please add me as a friend on here or on the psn (carlos69nash) so we can hook up some time for some intense no wait moderate racing :)

Do the winners win a wipeout hoodie? I want 1 of them bad boys...

[LurifaxFlux]

This should be the theme video of doubles league XD
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1938849

Awwhhh doubles league uuuhhuuuhuhuuuu!!! xD

[LOUDandPROUD]

LMBO...perfect! :lol

[OBH]

I think one of you guys should take the reigns and get this thing running instead of me.

I'm really struggling to keep enthusiasm for a game that a cannot play, on a console i no longer even own!! Since my ps3 died ive barely even visited wz :(

[kanar]

I know what you feel OBH. I would have been glad to take the reigns of this league... If I could slow or better, freeze time. Organising online wipeout stuffs is mayhem. First, the major issue is wipeout hd was released a while ago now, and lots of gamers finally moved on to play something else (booooh).

And well, I believe a lot of guys here don't care that much about online competition (you have no idea of how many regular users here just ignored my cup invitation without any answer to my pm), due to real life obligations/lack of gaming time/no time to practice the hardest game ever, or whatever reason.

As the double league or the world cup, Xpand was an awesome concept, but running such event organisation would require at least one or two full time community managers, which is impossible. If I can renew constantly the interest of hd for myself, I'm not sure it's the case for the majority here. Nowadays, lots of people are just lurking the place from time to time, without involving themselves into world of wipeout, for the reasons stated above. Yeah this is sad, but this is life. And I fear the worse with the upcoming Gt5 release lol.

[Whizawk]

Yeldar and KGB, that is a nasty combination and one likely to win. Eh, I don't really get involved in these kind of things until I eventually become a better racer and manifest more experience racing with Auricom.

[KGB]

Bonnie & Clyde or Little and Large, they were both nasty combinations :D.

[Whizawk]

Still, you have a machine on your team.