GREEN League : the bane of wipEout?

[ACE-FLO]

Is the GREEN League a fair racing league? Not in my book!

Any race where all weapons are absorbed except for the GREEN weapons (autopilot / turbo /shield) is unfair - because the there is no chance of slowing down the opposition, or getting shot/bombed - and a very minute chance of blowing up and an unfairly increased chance of getting much much better times (even record times)... This is not wipEout as it was intended and leads to comporomised leaderboards times... We all want more people to play wipEout right? well they'll just give up after a week when they realise that the top times were impossible to achieve and be put off from the game forever - I've had a few complaints about it myself!

We've had problems on WZ before regarding unfairly achieved times, take the Pulse era when CFW and Jaytech were the bane of the format, everyone caused an uproar back then - I rememeber it clearly! This is no different - in fact it is worse, because it is not just an individual but an entire league of pilots who are involved.

Did you guys not think that this GREEN league will lead to controversy?

47 posts were deleted from a precious thread created by OBH, because they were deemed off topic by SaturnReturn.

I invite you all here to express your opinions on the fairness of the GREEN league, what options we have to make it fair, etc...

There's also a poll option, please use it!

EDIT: I voted "make it 6 laps"

[Temet]

Ace, Buddy, you know I like you and I respect you... I can't forget the time we were racing almost every evening on Pulse! Buuuuttt, I could copy and paste my beloved post from yesterday... but I'm not pissed off anymore, and don't want to fight with you mate :g

Let's take the wise idea expressed by MSSA :

In terms of "fairness", how are these "green races" any different to just playing a normal race against one random beginner to try for a record? After the first few seconds, it's basically the same thing...

Think about it, when Yeldar (sorry mate, it's not against you, I choose you 'cause you're the fastest... I'd really prefer put my nickname instead :g ) is racing with average pilots, like me (unfortunately) ... after 5 seconds I don't see him anymore, he has all the weapon pads, I can't shoot at him... it's wide open for a WR.

From yesterday's post : I really appreciate the idea of Ace3Cube, he proposed the Green League, forced nobody to join (even if we tried to recruit Pirhapac). The goal is to have a new experience with Wipeout (which is getting old... yeah, deal with it). And then some people complain AGAIN with the ranking board.
Please remember that Wipeout is a GAME... the goal is to get FUN while PLAYING.

For what it takes, I like GL and I'm not an Icaras player (well occasionaly but I'm even faster with my Ag-S). If you wonder why, it's not for ranking, it's not for times, but for two reasons :
- a different experience, it's good to change sometime
- I'm always last, so eating tons of mines and bombs... and this is sssssssssssssoooooooo frustrating !!!!! With GL, I'm still last but at least I can race properly!

PS : I don't put back the funny images, this could lead to off topic.

PS 2 : please please please Jasmin, do not write "Icarus" again, I'm about to cry each time I see that? (ps : Icaras)

EDIT : of course, I vote to leave GL in peace man ;)

[Fyue]

unfair - because the there is no chance of slowing down the opposition

I guess you should improve your own time. Not slow down the opposition. Be faster.

And there's also a strategy which isn't in TT & SL. I mean, speedpad or pick up... Stealing pick up for the contenders... Passing other players on first lap with speed pads...

I think personally that we must be more involved in the strategy when we play Green League that classic races ; because of quakes etc...

One error and you're down. > Most of players refuse that, because the skills aren't here.

I agree, the first lap is the most important. And when there are eight players, it could be difficult to win when you're last on the departure lougne.

But when you're four as at the last green league, there's no problem.

I see best players win Green Races. So... ? What's wrong ?

Best players win. The others lose. Accept it. Do not cry.



P.S.: The 'you' isn't for you Ace-Flo, of course. It's for everyone. :)

[Ace3cube]

If I want " comporomised leaderboards times " as few ppl say, I got a better idea [but i think some pilots make it times ago] ==> I take one friend, put invit only and here we go ! I'm alone to race and i try to kick ass !
I stay away at the moment and i " lol "

[ACE-FLO]

@ Fyue, no offense taken - I started this thread because when GRREN league first got established - you'll see that I though it was a great idea. Not anymore though - and as for you saying become faster, I've raced you and you already know how fast I am ;) I play weapons races and weps off races, not an unfair compromise of the two :D

I got this from ANdybob35 last night bia PSN - he told me I could quote him so here it is...


the 6 laps ideal is cool, though pointlessly boring *nudge-fest* indures, but for those 'purists' its there cup of tea. but wen u initaily hear green races, it can only be for gain, i dont buy 'weapons slow me down' or similar BS, if u can double br and do shortcuts, U CAN ****ING AVOID A MINE!! just side-shift or heaven forbid, devait from the racing line xDDDD

@Temet :) whatever made you think we were arguing my drear friend? A debate is what we had, you're still a star in my eyes :)

I'm not expecting anyone to agree with me, this is no ACE-FLO club :D I want to hear the opinions of others regarding this touchy matter and maybe come to some fair solution in the interest of this game we all love.


If I want " comporomised leaderboards times " as few ppl say, I got a better idea [but i think some pilots make it times ago] ==> I take one friend, put invit only and here we go ! I'm alone to race and i try to kick ass !
I stay away at the moment and i " lol "

I guess the noob bomb on lap 5 is a spanner in the works in that plan - unless you manage to avoid it :D

[Rezatron]

Top multiplayer times require skill and lucky pickups regardless of predetermined rules between pilots. This "green league" only makes it easier to score a top time. The same can be achieved if you get a pole position against not so good opposition, separate from the pack early with a boost and then proceed to do an "online time trial" with a few extra turbo pickups to boot. Of course you must know what you're doing (via Time Trial) to get a top MP time regardless of pickups...

Multiplayer online times are nice but not so serious IMO. Not only do they largely depend on pickups/luck/opposition, but also online playtime. I've notice alot of my MP Flash times being eclipsed lately but then I realize they are by players who play Flash online almost exclusively and are 20-25 ranks higher than me meaning they've had hundreds of more races on each track at that speed.

So my point is... it doesn't really matter. Time Trials remain the most accurate measurement of skill (and not just Phantom yeah).

[KIGO1987]

In the thread OBH created there where heaps of points brought up. Bullshit that 47 posts where deleted, most of them where on topic and related to Icaras pilots out there since alot of them are Green League racers. The only off topic items on that thread where the funny picture Temet and I posted on the thread. All in all the posts that where deleted by Chris Harvey / SaturnReturn brought up some good points. Like the record tables being wrecked since the game is being played in a manner that it wasnt suppose to. Like i said before in the posts that where deleted the record times acquired in Green League races stand out like oil on water. Green League race acquired records need to be in a record table of there own so not to get confused over legit records acquired in online races.

Points brought up like doing 6lap races over 5lap races so the records are not merged is a start. But really those records are a cheap way to get your name recognized in the game, those records need to be in a table of there own then all will be good. As Temet said "that Wipeout is a GAME... the goal is to get FUN while PLAYING." which pretty much how the game should be recognized but the creation of the Green League has brought up some points.

[ACE-FLO]

It's not about a measure of skill - I can confidently say all WZ members are better than the average pilot out there anyway...

What it is about, is the interest in fairness.

FYUE makes a point that he can go into a 2 man race and get a top time - ok fine, that's the name of the game though. But compromise its' intended format by mixing two different game modes :lol Thats' un infair way of getting good times and you all know it :D

Gamers who are new to wipEout HD Fury will see those records up on the multiplayer leaderbaords and get put off by the game. More wipers are playing this game attests to the fact that the game is popular, and this compromises its' popularity amongst the fresh new talent which is gracing the HD servers since Playstaton Plus . I say this because I have been questined by some of these new pilots as to how the top times are acheived, to which I always reply - SL, TT, Practice practice practice, offline/ online etc... but when they in turn ask me how GREEN league is fair - what do I say to them? :blarg


Multiplayer online times are nice but not so serious IMO
I play ONLINE only - like many on my PSN friends list... I'm the opposite, I find SL and TT boring and get distracted too easily :lol Online keeps me focused on the game though...

[UB3R~JKP]

I hate GREEN League, I know i'm not a good pilot but Being not consistant rocks! It means very rarely I can just go crazy and end up performing really well, or at least I THINK i am but judging by the top times it doesn't matter the practically flawless runs because you damn green league racers are just to0 fast. ;)

[mic-dk]

Think about it, when Yeldar (sorry mate, it's not against you, I choose you 'cause you're the fastest... I'd really prefer put my nickname instead :g ) is racing with average pilots, like me (unfortunately) ... after 5 seconds I don't see him anymore, he has all the weapon pads, I can't shoot at him... it's wide open for a WR.


This.

Why do you get so worked up about leaderboards? They have been misleading at best since pretty much always and we all should have a pretty clear idea on what level we are just by racing each other. We don't need leaderboards for that. On any given sunday, the top 50 players will beat each other no matter who is placed where at the leaderboards.

If you're afraid the poor, poor newcomers are being scared off by silly MP times, how do you think they'll react when they fire up SL/TT? Even discounting all the bogus laps/TTs how is a newcomer ever going to beat a yeldar/pirha/whoever TT? I think you give the unwashed masses way to little credit - if they think the game is fun for them, they'll play and, maybe, eventually end up here.

I'm average at the best of times, but still keep coming back to WOHD, simply because I think its fun. Maybe I'm being naive, but I like to think that's why most of us play?

[Temet]

You know, Green League is "just" an "official" League created to make it possible for people who want to race "no weapon but BR" races.
I mean "official", because I'm been playing several times with Tug and Leungbok for example when we played without firing weapons, or rarely. It was existing before, this is just a mean to get pilots all together.

PS : be happy "Pirhapac" is not playing often online... you'd see some new WR ^^

[ACE-FLO]

lol Temet, you too funny sometimes. Why does Pirhapacs name keep getting bought up? he's got nothing to do with this debate - peeps were mentioning in the "other" thread too LOL

Now, some of you might find this hard to beleive - but I don't care for records personally, I don't compete on that level - I'm in it for the fun, but the fun is waning away when the game become elitist and broken....

@mic-dk = Yep, all about the fun here too :) I still think its all about the fun, a sI play the game regardless :D BUT TAKE my cousin who bought the PS3 and WipEOut HD Fury on Bluray around 6 weeks ago now. He doesnt play it at all, becuase he thinks the multiplayer online times are messed up, and is aware of GREEN league also.... that's one real life example right there !!!

Oh, and TEMET - there's nothing "official" about GREEN league - LOL, the leagues that are officiail are all included in the standard HD Fury package - Weps OFF / Weps ON /Eliminator /Zone Battle etc... don't paint it otherwise please ;)

[KIGO1987]

I remember racing alot with Leungbok back in 2008, back in the Pulse good days, we just raced in phantom and played the game how it was, with non of this poncy bullshit of today at all. Everything has changed since then. Make a game called "TIMEOUT" just for all the Green League players, and have "WIPEOUT" like it is. Keeps everything in order. as well as the records too.

[leungbok]

Top multiplayer times require skill and lucky pickups regardless of predetermined rules between pilots. This "green league" only makes it easier to score a top time. The same can be achieved if you get a pole position against not so good opposition, separate from the pack early with a boost and then proceed to do an "online time trial" with a few extra turbo pickups to boot. Of course you must know what you're doing (via Time Trial) to get a top MP time regardless of pickups...

Multiplayer online times are nice but not so serious IMO. Not only do they largely depend on pickups/luck/opposition, but also online playtime. I've notice alot of my MP Flash times being eclipsed lately but then I realize they are by players who play Flash online almost exclusively and are 20-25 ranks higher than me meaning they've had hundreds of more races on each track at that speed.

So my point is... it doesn't really matter. Time Trials remain the most accurate measurement of skill (and not just Phantom yeah).

Damn ! :eek I totally agree with that !
You see ? when you want ! ;)

[OBH]

I see we're starting today where yesterday left off.......
Im going to say my piece then quickly leave it think.


First and foremost, i think "the bane of wipeout" is a massive, massive overstatement.
2nd, asking the people who enjoy this league to put it on 6 laps isnt really fair, as your not going to say 'all players that race 1-on-1 with a noob must put it on 6 laps also' are you?
Clearly different people enjoy different kinds of competition, its just a touchy subject because all our competitions are user made, so all times go into the multiplayer races board regardless of its set-up.
I doubt anyone would have a problem whatsoever with any of this if players could chose what weapons were on offer in the lobby, and if SL made a leaderboard that could be filtered to view only times using a set weapon list.
Last but certainly not least, the leaderboards have barely worked for months anway. A couple of top 3 times ive made are yet to be displayed, and apparently Ive never raced on Anulpha Pass reverse since ive had the internet back :) still an auricom time i set from way back when.

[ACE-FLO]

Damn ! :eek I totally agree with that !
You see ? when you want ! ;)

So you agree with the following also?



This "green league" only makes it easier to score a top time

OBH, what other user made league gives us the advantage to get faster racing times? exactly... ;)

[OBH]

hows that any different to me racing a nobody while i wait for my lobby to fill? I dont do it often (mainly becuase 9/10 times they quit anyway), but i dont see how me doing that doesnt offend you an equal amount

[ACE-FLO]

:D offend me? I do that too - but that is fair play man... everyone plays on the same level there, to the same format, the way it was intended...

Not everyone plays the GREEN league though do they? it's a just a bunch of Zoners who are doing this :(

Let me present the flip side to your argument Haydn.

A noob enters a weps on race - gets blown up 6 times and DNFs :D

Same noob enters the GREEN race, and manages to finish for once - advantage? you tell me mate :D

EDIT: Noob is probably unaware that there is an elitiist club (GREEN league) churning out bad ass times anyway - and leaves the format thinking "this game is broke" sad days...

[OBH]

still dont see how a race where you must absorb everything except greens, vs 7 other players, is worse than me vs 1 sh*t player, but i too am absorbing anything other than greens :beer

[ACE-FLO]

You're splitting hairs now Haydn :lol The same noob who got "worked" in a 1 on 1 race with you, can atleast race with you and maybe even slow you down with nooob bombs and mines when you come round to lap him/her - I'd like to see that happen in a GREEN race :D there you go, split that hair ;)

[KIGO1987]

A noob enters a weps on race - gets blown up 6 times and DNFs :D

Same noob enters the GREEN race, and manages to finish for once - advantage? you tell me mate :D

Weapons.

Weapon races are for people who have hair on there scrotum's.

[leungbok]

Lol, since the release of WOHD, i was witness of some players (good ones, sometimes members here) playing several times the same tracks in rooms of 2 players :eek
Strange, no ? ;) So green races is maybe an easier way to reach top score, but it doesn't matter to me, it's still a luck pickup matter ! SL decides to make wipeout a fighter instead of a racer (new online mode eliminator but not the already existing time trial multiplayer -pure) :rolleyes:
Personally i don't like very much that fact. To make the game more balanced with hugely destructing and slowing weapons, is good for casual and beginners but frustrating for those who prefer speed and piloting skills ! :|

Sorry for my bad english !

[DreamyElf]

rezatron covered me in some areas.
i'll add:
i dont care much about leaderboards, especially the multiplayer race times.
as i said yesterday, except from skill which is the most important thing needed in wipeout, luck also plays a role in races.
i mean if you play a game in a full lobby against players with same skills and weapons on, it is very difficult to make a good time.
but then playing in a race with only 1 or 2 lower skilled players is a lot easier to make a great time, you only need clean start and lines,BRs and then some turbos...
so yeah playing in a green race totally affect the leaderbords.
i don't think that it's fair for some pilots who are interested in leaderboards and don't play in green races...
it's like saying to them: if you can't beat us, join us.
i don't agree with this.
personally i dont care if someone has better times online.
if i want to test my skills against other players i will choose a fast track, a balanced track and finally a technical one.
of course i want the game to be played as it meant to be played:
with default settings, weapons on and BR on.;)
like kigo said yesterday the game is called WIPEOUT!:nod

just my thoughts!:)
anyway, i know i'm rubbish compared to most zone pilots but at least i think i'm a fairplay pilot that plays for fun, winning or losing doesn't matter...;)

[ACE-FLO]

Its frustrating for everyone Leungbok. But that doesn't make it ok to make a GREEN league which allows for times to be reached using questionable methods. I find that weak.

And anyway, If a good pilot can do SS chain BRs etc - then you cant tell me that same pilot can't dodge a well placed bomb or mine, or evade a rocket :D Nature of the game - you gonna get hit in a race - if you don't, well done! Let's see if the same happens next race... ;)

And yes, I also see a certain well known zoner who ranks 101, constantly repeat SOL2 fwd everytime he is hosting online :D that's fair though, and have no problem with it because he races with weapons on, and uses them too (yes, the reds and blues :D)

Get a top time like that, and it's admirable - get a top time in GREEN league, and I frown upon it :) fact.

[Kyonshi]

Green races couldn't really be prevented; i could easily go Green in a normal race. I would have to face weapon hazards of course, but i can decide to go Green anytime. I remember Yeldar saying he absorbs all weapons pick-ups in a race, even Bombs and Mines, to get faster time and win, hence making it almost a Green race.

If we would prevent Green races from happening under the excuse that it denatures the core purpose of the game, Weapon-less races should be banned as well, since it also denatures the game being a combat racer.

My guest if that we should build a new leaderboard dedicated exclusively for Green racers, but that would mean having the players register themselves their records but we couldn't really distinguish those times from the regular times on the in-game leaderboard. This situation could lead to a catch-22 situation if we think about it.

[ACE-FLO]

Kyonshi :)

If in a 8 man race, one pilot decides to go green - be it at his/her behest - coz the others can still use weapons and slow green pilot down... that's still combat racing. If green pilot wins, great stuff - he won in a fully weapons hungry (red blue + green weps) environment. Full credit to said pilot...

If people wanna just race without beig hit/slowed down - then just turn weps off... it's that simple - GREEN league is a blatant way to get faster times, unfairly... and you can all split hairs as much as you want here - I'll attempt to fuse the strands together again :D ;)

If you love the GREEN league that much peeps, make it 6 laps in the interest of fairness, as Stinkleroy suggested yesterday in the thread where 47 posts where deleted ;)

[amplificated]

I agree with everything Rezatron, OBH and Leungbok said

multiplayer races will never be 100% fair - one player can start in 1st, another can start in 8th, and what formula is that based on? The same factor that decides which pickups each player gets: the luck of the draw.

Even green races have elements that will not allow for a perfect time and are still going to be decided by pure luck. It's the same randomness in WO that's the only thing preventing it from being 100% fair. You can have skill with pickups, and while that's only a small portion of the race, you could lose out on that portion to another player through no fault of your own because of that factor.

Green races allow for fast times to be made at a higher frequency than a typical SR, sure, but they aren't the only option of doing so, and even still, the final time will be decided by luck as well. I think the problem you're seeing is that the times are more reflective of the player's racing skill than a typical weapons on race, and I can see your point, but really, the multiplayer leaderboards will always be based on random elements - a good player may get a #1 time because they got lots of boosts, while a great player isn't in the top 10 yet because he hasn't seen any boosts on that track after 100 races.

Nobody will have a great time in weapons off races due to there not being any turbos or other pickups to absorb, so they can't count, which leaves green races; which can have people bumping into one another and still have the potential of not giving you a single turbo for an entire race, and that's not different to: a normal race, where you could get 10 turbos and have a better result than what you've achieved in a green match. That's the luck of the draw.

Green races IMO aren't about getting "fast times" - it's about being the fastest you can be, while playing against others. It's a unique opportunity to play without weapons slowing you down, and I think it's perfectly justified to play matches like that. Being as fast as you can be, to me, is the biggest draw of the game. Even if random elements still decide the result, green matches are fun to play due to the reasons I just described, and while it's gaming the system, I think it's not gaming it by enough for it to be considered a problem.

[AnErare]

Indeed Leung, speed and cornering skill ftw! :)

Honestly Ace, you like to see players you can lap in a race? How is it fair to them for you to stay there and not let them finish a race? I'm slightly puzzled..

Anyway, to get to the point of this thread. I personally am all pro the green league. Why? It's quite simple. I fly Icaras and hate weapons! Nah, silly joke and reference :) It's true in ways though. I love flying HD Icaras and also no-weapons races. But I also love turbo's to be faster and add the potential of more BR's. And I love shields to enhance/protect the fragile wings of the craft. But as Leung stated above, and I agree, I'd also like the multiplayer TT mode to be added to the game. Yes it would be much fairer that green races but alas it's the closest we can get in this game. Anyone who doesn't like to play it this way doesn't need to join in and be annoyed by it. Better yet, one can stay away and let us enjoy it while we can :)

That's what this game is about, and the forum as well. Being friends, in speed!

Now I dont think the green races are unfair. Sure, people can join in, only to find they can't keep up or are set back too much to come back to win. But that happens in any given mode! I remember races I've played last week with Asa and Cat and Chaos and Mad-Ice. They were all so thrilling! If races went well, without too many mistakes, we still all finished within 2 seconds from eachother. How is that an unfair advantage?

The chance to make mistakes in lines doesn't disappear in any game mode. We all have to live with that fact. The new pilots are still learning how to line the tracks and manouevre the ships and may well use pilotassist, that's what it's for. If they can't handle them well enough to keep up in any speed class and see themselves being lapped, why complain about the non-existing option of cheating? We all know skill and speed are our basic cheating system, but there's more! The game has given us air-brakes, side-shift, barrel rolls, shields, autopilots, even weapons!

The point is though: you don't need to use any of them, if you choose so. Granted, on the faster classes you will need air-brakes. If you want to be able to corner even faster, you will need side-shift. BR's can be added as well but still remain an option. One can even turn them off, just like pilot assist. And weapons. Given the option to use extensions to the piloting, one can choose not to use weapons someone picks up. They still are being picked up though! This means the items someone will find do not solely consist of green items. It's a system of chance. And taking or using those as succesful as one can.

This also applies to races with weapons.

Are chances to be faster enhanced by green races? I think so yes, it certainly appears so. But I've also noticed people to take different risks, to be faster. But not solely to reach the leader boards in top 20 or even top 10 ranks. One can do that in any mode given the right circumstances. Often enough even, I've seen pilots fly personal records in no-weapons races!

Weapons races are just as fast as green races. When people dont gauge to blast the living beep out of others. Sadly a lot do exactly that. If the weapons randomization wasn't as bad as it's become in HD over time, this would probably be less of an issue. Some people just choose not to use the weapons and slow others down but to go for speed. Yes weapons can be used as tools to play mindgames in races. Without them it's still a mindgame. And I personally enjoy being faster more with good lines than when I've set someone back blowing them up or depleting their energy by 3 or more seconds.. Often the setback adds up to as much as 7 seconds.. Is that fair? I guess it is when a mistake in taking fast lines and cornering somewhere too close will let your craft meet with an obstacle that sends you flying off like a giant grasshopper.. ;)

But calling it unfair or even a bane? It's a choice. People choose to play this game and maybe leave it too early to master it. That's also a choice. Some people are found in top 10 ranks very often. They choose to play this game a hell of a lot. But probably have simply grown to be very skilled. Playing it more often increases chances to be very lucky, especially when coupled with skill in being fast.

Cheers!

See you on the tracks and or in real life, let's be friends and fly high!

AnE.

[ACE-FLO]

Maybe so Amp - but you leave out the most important detail in your post - paramount infact ;)

Here - I make it real simple, No one is getting shot in GREEN races, everyone absorbing weps and firing off Turboes and Autopilots, using shields to avoid the ram fest which no doubt ensues... a world apart from normal races... It obvioulsy gives you a faster time. I've raced a few GREEN races myself and was appalled at the times I was getting, totally unfair... I felt like a cheat for doing it. This reminds me, I gotta remove myslef from the GREEN league group. I don't wanna be a part of it anymore.

[amplificated]

If you like weapons on races, what is the appeal of a good time? Isn't the best thing about weapons their chaotic nature that brings a bit more life to the game? Good times are a possibility, but I can't see them being a real draw for playing with weapons on. They're going to be different every race no matter how good you are with weapons...

[ACE-FLO]

Indeed Leung, speed and cornering skill ftw! :)

Honestly Ace, you like to see players you can lap in a race? How is it fair to them for you to stay there and not let them finish a race? I'm slightly puzzled..

:D SO you should be - coz that's not me mate :D The 1 on 1 examples were given by ohters in this thread, I just used them as expamples to rebuttle their point. But if you beleive me to be a noob hunter (sheesh) then in my defence I can quite easily prove that false. When Uber-JKP came to HD Fury, he was still learning the ropes, and ended up in a room I was in. Yes, I won. But thenI made the room private and actually went through a long and intense training session with him, showed him some things I learnt, like BR spots and weapons tactics etc - now he's better than me :) awesome...

Rest of your post, yes, You make a good point AnE but you say the GREEN league is not unfair - well for the thousands who don't know of its exixtence, try telling them that - coz I did and got an ear bashing, hence the creation of this thread...


If you like weapons on races, what is the appeal of a good time? Isn't the best thing about weapons their chaotic nature that brings a bit more life to the game? Good times are a possibility, but I can't see them being a real draw for playing with weapons on. They're going to be different every race no matter how good you are with weapons...
And that's the point - if you can manage to get a WR time like that - then you've proved something worth more than getting it in a GREEN race now right? What, you lot don't think it is possible? Andybob35 says it is and is willikng to challenge anyone and will do it in a Triakis no less :D
Just shows that he thinks it is possible - and so do I... How do you think the recs were set in the first place when HD launched :D There was no GREEN league then was there???? humph - another hair joined together successfully ;)

[KIGO1987]

It really is like shiit on toast, but without the toast racing without weapons in Wipeout HD/Fury i gotta say.

Right ive just got the Eliminator League ownership back after a bloody long absence. Vartazian the Virgin had control over the group... then he got banned. I might be tempted to start something up again given when i get my PS3 back and if its all working and all. There are quite a few people racing in eliminator rooms online now days, so here is an alternative to the Green League if anyone is interested.

Anybody who wants to have fun with weapons ON be sure to check out the
Eliminator League (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/group.php?groupid=24). New suggestions are welcomed :)

[stinkleroy]

Ah gees this again....well I think everyone knows my feelings on this matter and that I think green races are key to my enjoyment of this game online now. In fact this is the way kanar and I always used to train for our doubles matches. I think that is indeed how the idea started to begin with.

Those who seem to oppose this league are mentioning things like ‘fairness’. Now let me state here, in plain English – NOTHING about this game is fair. Nothing. Online MP races are a joke to me now, getting smashed around the track and slowed to a halt every 5 seconds is not my idea of a fair race, or even a race for that matter. I’ve achieved better times in weapons on races through sheer luck. A while ago I scored a no #10 slot on AP rev in a normal race because I recieved no less than 7 turbos in a 5 lap race. Is that fair? No. Is racing against people who clearly have no idea what they are doing fair? Most certainly not, yet you admit to doing it yourself. Frankly I’d rather take my chances in a green room full of skilled pilots than TT against some level 1 player who’s 15 seconds behind. That to me is not the way the game was supposed to be played either.

Now to address the issue of ‘new players’...well when I first started racing seriously online there were times at the top of the leaderboard that I had no understanding of how they were achieved...shortcuts etc that I didn’t know about helping people to get faster times. However that didn’t stop me playing as it was never about that, it was about fun...and as you keep stating, that’s what the game is supposed to be. If new players don’t understand how things are achieved then they should practice more or check out youtube vids like the rest of us. Personally I don’t agree with shortcuts, but I have no problem with people using them if that’s what they want...it’s again all about personal choices.

The point that everyone keeps missing here is that NO-ONE is playing these races to get faster times, really no-one is. It’s all about being able to go 5 laps without the constant stopping and starting that goes on now in online single races. I get so frustrated sometimes that I honestly feel like smashing something. This is not the way this game should be played either. I want to have fun, and the way online is now, I can’t do that anymore. I want to play with my friends and go FAST! I’ve never made a fantastic time in green races, I’ve only had a fantastic time. And that is the point of the green league, not to get better times. Frankly most of the people here have already mentioned that MP records don’t mean much to them, and that TT and SL are the only true measures of racing skill. I agree with that statement wholeheartedly and think that most people probably do.

ACE I understand you came to the party late, and do not know how the game was pre Fury, but you must understand the disappointment of many people who played HD previously. Weapons slowed you down yes, but not like they do now. I never came across a last place bomb or set of mines...in fact doing comparisons between version 1.25 HD and the current version of Fury (we have both, one for offline, one for online), AnE and I have discovered that mines last waaaay longer than they used to, and that in general weapons were tinkered with to be more powerful in slowing down the opposition. That is a fact.

I think you should understand that the green league isn’t some kind of cult looking to rule the MP boards, it’s just similar minded friends racing in speed like AnE has just mentioned. It’s all about fun and losing because of your own mistakes, not anyone elses. I agree with everything that OBH, Leung , AnE and Amp have said and hope that some part of you will understand why this league was born.

There’s no supply without demand :)

[AnErare]

:D SO you should be - coz that's not me mate :D The 1 on 1 examples were given by ohters in this thread, I just used them as expamples to rebuttle their point. But if you beleive me to be a noob hunter (sheesh) then in my defence I can quite easily prove that false.

No I don't believe or even think that, was just stating part of my opinion :)

And if people want to think it's unfair or even cheating, maybe they should listen to Fyue ;)

Again, people don't need to join in or even like it.

[yeldar2097]

Time Trials remain the most accurate measurement of skill...

Will you marry me?

:lol

Here goes yeldar on another vague, meandering ramble about how he thinks he knows so much about everything :nod. Be prepared.

It seems to me that some would chastise TGL for being a blatant way of achieving better times. As far as I'm aware it's actually because they find it fun more than anything else. Not everyone is a record-hoarding-rankings-whore like myself. Sure, it's nice to have a Top 200, 100, 50 etc... time, and getting such records may be catalysed by such things as TGL, but who's counting?

Racing 1-on-1 with a n00b in a deliberate attempt to get a record is worse in my opinion. Poor chap just wants to race and some insanely fast PSN gremlin with an agenda leaves him in the dust wondering what happened. Alternatively (certain people still do this -_- ) make a private room with a friend who is willing to leave their PS3 and pwn records that way. That's worse than TGL.

You say n00bs will be disheartened by the 'insane' mp times that they see? Well afaik (was certainly the case with me) n00bs tend to look at the TOP records on each track and I'll let you all know now that NONE (maybe one, not sure) of the current mp WRs were done in Green Races. However, several of them were done using the latter method from the paragraph above. All the rest were done racing under normal circumstances.
You tell me which one has stuffed the records most?

It doesn't even matter to be honest, there are no MP records that a that much further ahead of anyone else, someone just needs to nail a good race and there you go, new WR. If TGL was causing records that were faster than Time Trials, fine, maybe have a word or two. Fact is, it's been going for a while and no breaking of record tables has occured.

We've had a Hardcore League before, that was awesome. No absorbing allowed :)
"BUT WAIT, YOU'RE ALLOWED TO ABSORB NORMALLY SO THIS LEAGUE IS WRONG."
"Oh :(. So we can't have a different kind of fun from time to time :( )"

You can try to counter with the "You're buggering the record tables!" approach but until at least 5 WRs (not a lot at all considering how game-breaking it is) exist as a result of TGL I'm not going to count that as a valid argument...and I rule all so there :P

You like racing normally, great. You like racing without absorbing, great. You like racing without shooting other people, great. You like all choosing the same ship for a race just for fun, great. You like racing with weapons off, great.

Do what you like, enjoy the game, stop bitching til it's properly broken (ignore SL tables for the sake of my argument please :lol)

Just going for a bit of clarification :)

[mic-dk]

Stinkleroy speaks the truth.

Personally I also enjoy plain old weapons races. When it starts to get too frustrating I simply leave... ;) And quite frankly, if you pick up a game, look at leaderboards, think 'this is unpossible!!1!' and then leave, then maybe the game wasn't all that interesting for you in the first place?

IMO people can play WO anyway they like - as long as they play.

Edit: Oh, and Yeldar speaketh it too :p

[Danterich]

If I want " comporomised leaderboards times " as few ppl say, I got a better idea [but i think some pilots make it times ago] ==> I take one friend, put invit only and here we go ! I'm alone to race and i try to kick ass !
I stay away at the moment and i " lol "

100% ditto

[ACE-FLO]

Oi, "who's bitching" LOL that would be me.

Anyway, I've expressed my disdain for the league, and am leaving it here for now. I'm starting to see the same repetitive noise worded differently with every post - so before I do the same - I'll quit while I'm ahead :D

Thanks you all for your time, and passion regarding this matter - was an awesome exercise in futility on my part - but fun rants all the same :) Love you all ;) and thanks for being patient with me.

Final note - I agree to disagree :g

[AnErare]

Noise?

Being ahead?

Futility?

Rants?

I thought this was a poll with added thread to discuss opinions and views :) And somewhere a way to advertise another league in off-topic mode. But mostly people expressing their opinions and some using other's posts to show they agree or disagree.

Ace, you haven't won or left early to prevent getting cornered or just to post your flag on the summit. I think people will save that option for the tracks to be decided at ;D

[karsten_beoulve]

Just a semi off-topic.

this game is frustrating, for newbies. REALLY frustating. I still have enormous problems with the game due to BRs mechanic (i'l never adapt to it), but i think that the GL is not the problem. After many months i've managed to stay in 5 seconds to good players in almost all the tracks, but there's a few ones were i, still today, after countless training get 12 seconds off!

What the noobs need is a skill pairing method in the rooms, so that they can get to grow at their pace and hone their skills. And se each other grow.

As a last note, if the races were weaponless i think i would have never battled vartazian, yeldar, shawnfrecle, sinus and the many unbeatable experts around here. And i would have lost LOTS of fun!

[ACE-FLO]

Noise?

Being ahead?

Futility?

Rants?

I thought this was a poll with added thread to discuss opinions and views :) And somewhere a way to advertise another league in off-topic mode. But mostly people expressing their opinions and some using other's posts to show they agree or disagree.

Ace, you haven't won or left early to prevent getting cornered or just to post your flag on the summit. I think people will save that option for the tracks to be decided at ;D
:D Shall we roll? I'll host ;)

[AnErare]

Yes please!

If it's green ;)

Hehehe no thanks, not right now, probably later today when I've taken some Irn-Bru :)

[Ace3cube]

Green Green lol \o/

[ACE-FLO]

^ LOL at Cubes post - I like GREEN too, but I smoke it :D

@AnE, Irn-Bru huh, hmmm - nice ;) I was ready and waiting for you online mate - sent you an invite but um... you need your Irn-Bru :D Just quite literally got offline this minute... ;)

Catch you around bud :D

[kaori]

Time of single or online races are not significant ! :mr-t

In real life, look at car competition : do you look race time (eg Formula One, 78 laps on Monaco) ?

No, because weather, temperature, opponents' value and number, incidents, etc, all this varies the conditions of races, so the time you can realize.



Green league is fair because everyone knows the rules.

Leaderboards of online races is useless, like the online rank (sinus1 the best oh yeah :rock)

And to blame guys like Ace3cube who try to preserve interest for WipEout is very unfair.

[Darkdrium777]

In the interest of finding a solution between those who like and don't like, the extended races (6 laps or more) looks very clever.

As for me, well I do not care much about weapons and getting hit by them. They are part of the game (I said that.) However what I absolutely hate is the lag and I wish it would one day disappear because sometimes you drive and you can't race properly because you keep getting rammed off your line by other players who are not even supposed to be touching you (They are not touching you on their screen.) So yeah, I don't like that a lot.
Green league offers theoretically no solution to that but with people using only green things I noticed that racers eventually spread out and makes for a pleasurable driving experience. But I can get that same experience offline and so I do not care much about green league if it were to stop because of this discussion. For me it's a way to drive with other people I enjoy playing with but that's it. Multiplayer race times seem not to be corrupted so I can understand why some voice their concern for that but it has been brought up that similar situations to green league can and will happen often, so green league looks to me like everyone has a shot instead of the one or few who pull ahead in a race populated with average players.

EDIT: But then there are those who green to get records, and so extending to 6 laps is not a solution for them. I have no idea.

[KIGO1987]

Time of single or online races are not significant ! :mr-t

In real life, look at car competition : do you look race time (eg Formula One, 78 laps on Monaco) ?

No, because weather, temperature, opponents' value and number, incidents, etc, all this varies the conditions of races, so the time you can realize.


Formula One is very different again to Wipeout i would say Jonathan. Two very very different examples. Times do play there way in a way

Oh ****ing hell for ****sake this is getting dumb, i feel asleep tbh with the laptop in front of me, simple, if there was a way to segregate the Green League acquired times, then im happy for the selected French and the others to do there own thing. The considerate an unselfish thing would be to make it 6laps as Cat mentioned in the Icaras thread before Chris deleted everything. I believe that would be the best solution at the time in order to keep the peace.

[kaori]

My exemple concerns just "opponents' value and number, incidents" you can meet in online race, it's why time of online race (or single) are not significant.

I don't understand. Since 25 september 2008 :


I've seen friends who play one vs one to beat their record.
I've seen some guys who start races against just one newbie ( it's like a Time Trial, with luck you can have 6 or 7 turbos).
But I've seen (rare) pilots able to get a top 10 in Avalon races too, without any green item. I don't hear them complaining.

And 21 months after, green races would be unfair ? And the aforementioned points 1 & 2 ?

EDIT : nice tag "french silent treatment (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/tags.php?tag=french+silent+treatment)" :-

[KIGO1987]

The game has changed alot since 25 september 2008. Some people have come and gone, some people still fire up the game to do a bit of TT or Eliminator or some online. This is what happens when no new content comes out on the game after an extended period of time, people get bored and start creating new leagues up, and playing the game in alternate ways.

[SaturnReturn]

All in all the posts that where deleted by Chris Harvey / SaturnReturn brought up some good points.

Please call me SaturnReturn. Until you posted my full name a lot of people didn't know it. I don't have an issue with it if they do, but I think it's my choice whether people know my full name or not.
Thanks

On topic - I think it's up to individuals how they play the game. I don't really like green races that much because I feel it becomes all about the turbo. But I find the best solution to that, for me at least, is to just not play green races. It's worked out pretty well so far. So I voted 'not bothered'.

[KGB]

It might of been brought up already as I have not read all of this, but if people really want to race without weapons ruining the game why don't they race with weapons turned off - job sorted! I know it sounds out there, but you never know it might just catch on ;)

If I could be bothered I would vote for 'not bothered'

[KIGO1987]

People found out about your name when you became moderator here late last year, not sure what thread it was on. But i can refer to you as just SaturnReturn, SR, or just Chris minus the full name if you like me too.

That is a bloody good point KGB acutally. But the damage has been done on the record tables and there isnt much of a Studio Liverpool to clean it up like they did back when they where at full staff power.

[ACE-FLO]

I even doubt that SL woulda cleaned the boards up anywya, they didn't on Pulse (rememeber the NCR crew of hackers who fingered around with the game and messed up some table on pulse? they still not fixed LOL - 3 yrs and counting)

[KIGO1987]

SL did clear up record both in WOHD and Pulse once upon a time, but it came a futile task and now the record tables are left as they are now. Congratulations to all the shiits who have mess them up.:|

[ACE-FLO]

... and continue to do so ;)

[AG-wolf]

I really wish I could read through all the pages of this thread, but 6 pages in the span of a day is just too much for me.

I voted 6 laps

[Aeroracer]

i think green league is fine..if you like that style of racing which some players do.

i dont agree with if you dont like weapons just turn them off attitude
green league like the turbo and to absorb its their choice
so what if it increases the chances of a better time how about all the other activitys that happen online daily such as....



what about friends racing in private rooms doing exactly the same thing (no weapons just turbos) since day one of release..

what about glitchers who use glitches to improve times.

what about noob hunters who use numerous fake rank 1 ids and play novices so they can boost easy wins and get good times making out to the novice players their just super talented beginners.

if you like weapons races thats cool

if you like green races thats cool

everyone to their own..

i like them all well apart from glitchers and fake id novice hunters which is where a problem occurs if you want to get fussy.

also races with pickups are luck based so a player can play crap and get 6 turbos and end up with a nice time..

[ACE-FLO]

Yes Jasmin - GHREAT way of solving the problem of broken leaderboards - make them worse :D laughable at best :D sorry

[OBH]

I cant believe there's an attempt to make some kind of committee, largely of people not even involved, to try and decide weather a league should change the way its run or not.

If the main argument is the legitimacy of the leaderboard, then this whole witch hunt is a total waste of time because it lost its legitimacy a long, long time ago.

If this was mentioned a week after release date then fair enough, but 2 years later? After various other things broke the leaderboard? Its pretty trivial now.

I say either put up, get involved and maybe have some fun, or shut up :+

edit:
@jasmin-jade:
Well said :+

[Aeroracer]

you miss my point ace..

im not focusing on the leaderboards

what i am saying is green league is what the green players want no one has a right to tell them how they should enjoy themselves while playing a game..

and its a lot better than the other type of rubbish that players do online to get good times without the consent of others sometimes..such as noob hunting or glitching

but the most important point about all of this is wipeout is a game no one has the right to tell others how they should play their game..

saying your green race does not count cos you didnt shoot at each other is a scrubish mentality..

race time anyway means little i have got good time myself where i have beaten great players who are far superior in all ways to myself at playing i just lucky on the turbos...

but the point is wipeout is a game so let people play how they want to..

repsect and tolerate each other and the way they enjoy playing the game

[ACE-FLO]

Hold on! This is wipEoutzone, we are the people who make wipEout what it is... Granted there were bad apples in the past who compromised the leaderboards with questionable methods ranging from CFW, Jaytech, GLitches etc etc, and because of it, New leaderboards were placed within this very site here, so GENUINE times could be entered. Like in the Pulse boards for example... All this because peeps were not playing on the same level playing field, this action had to be takenm becasue WZ members created a stink about it back then..

Funny isn't it, hypocritical even, that now that GREEN league is givinig its members an unfair chance at bettering their times, that there was no leaderboard made to reflect that? I raise the point here...

So why is it different for GREEN League, every WZ member BLATANTLY knows the advantages this league proviides... yet the rest of the people who play wipEout but are not members of Wipeoutzone are unaware of this GREEN format which gives its pilots unfair advantages... Is this fair? Is this the same level playing field you all made an uproar about back then? No, it isn't - it's not fair to them, and someone has to give the silent majority a voice. Me.

This GREEN League issue is Hypocricital, and downright dishonest when you think about it, :( Prove me wrong!

[OBH]

Ill prove you wrong, I paid £15 for this game, and ill play it however i choose.

Your turn, prove me wrong?

[Darkdrium777]

In response to your very first statement. No we are not.

We are not the ones who decide how the game works.
We are not the ones who decide how the game is supposed to be played.
We are not the ones who decide what players can or can not do.

You know who decides this?

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7125/studioliverpoollogo.gif

What we do, is we decide, with what is given to us by Studio Liverpool, how we play their game.
We decide what is fun, and we can do it together online. Green League is that, it is an agreement between players that this type of race is fun and we should do it together.

Is it unfair? It's a matter of opinion, but like I said before, if the Green League stops RIGHT NOW, what can you do about the players who go out in newbie Phantom games to win by a tremendous margin, those who have a friend stay logged in a private lobby to have all the time in the world to make a record, or those that create multiple accounts and each of them have a top time on the leaderboard?
You can do nothing. Because you do not decide what players do with the game. This decision lies with Studio Liverpool.

[Aeroracer]

you talk of unfairness....

ace you must realise non zone members also do play private races without shooting each other...always have

you must also no about gang races where players work as a team to eliminate stronger outside players.

you do realise players play green races but make out their weapon races to make them look cool

players do make up fake rank 1 ids and go into novice races to boost their wins and get good times

and yes they may still be glitchers but how they do it i have no idea



it isnt unfair to do green races as you can do them yourself

i hate mines and bombs and wont use them unless i really have to..can i say its unfair cos i dont use them and others do and thats why i cannot compete
no i say if i lose i deserved to cos i restricted myself and what i can do with made up rules in my head ..that mean nothing to the world i play in
like or not no one can dictate how another player wants to play...

[ACE-FLO]

Ill prove you wrong, I paid £15 for this game, and ill play it however i choose.

Your turn, prove me wrong?

You've missed the point of my post, and proved something else... how much you paid for the game :lol

[OBH]

It was about £12.50 on psn store on release day to be exact.

And to be honest, i answered your question spot on i think -

This GREEN League issue is Hypocricital, and downright dishonest when you think about it, Prove me wrong!
They paid for the game, they choose how to play the game. Theres nothing downright dishonest about it.

If anything, youve missed the points that jasmin, d777, and myself have each laid out in front of you.

[ACE-FLO]

No Haydn, I understand those points perfectly, here - Studio Liverpool make the Game, You play it how you want, just like those hackers, CFW users, Jaytech abusers and god knows who else who discovered how to make faster times... simple.

Prove me wrong??? :D

[Aeroracer]

anyone for pimms








sorry......:nod

[OBH]

The difference is unlike hackers etc, this is for honest competition and enjoyment. The league wasnt created for the intention of heading the leaderboard, but for fun.

You know what, i like fun, so excuse me, im going to go join GREEN :g

[stinkleroy]

Studio Liverpool make the Game, You play it how you want, just like those hackers, CFW users, Jaytech abusers and god knows who else who discovered how to make faster times... simple.



Lol Jasmin ;)

Eeh I can't believe this is still going down. Ace, I really like and respect you but seriously, if youre going to start this argument then you might as well put the majority of zoners into your sin bin....shortcuts, BRing off the lip of a track etc is all in the same league....it's not how it was designed to be played, but people always will find a way to go faster. You dont hear me chastising people for using shortcuts, when I myself don't. Just deal with it :)

[ACE-FLO]

I cant deal with hypocrisy, sorry :?

[OBH]

Exactly cat :) i remember how annoyed i was with boostBRs and shortcuts....... i even made a thread about it saying it was the 'bane of wipeout' :g

learnt the error of my ways in the end, and made sure to apologise to a few Frenchmen i annoyed :+

[ACE-FLO]

well, don't hold your breath, no apology is coming from me, I haven't flamed anyone ;) lol

[Darkdrium777]

I think you have missed something here.

Studio Liverpool has acted against glitchers and hackers (They have removed their score from the leaderboards.) Studio Liverpool has acted against Jaytech (It is impossible to update Pulse, but the technique no longer works in HD Fury.)
They have also acted against BSB but then people found another trick (Just saying, not trying to open this can of worms again.)
Studio Liverpool has made decisions to protect their game given the apparent limited resources they were given, and we have seen the results.
To deny that like you have done is to me a pure lack of respect unfortunately. Because they did act, you do not see it though.

They could act MORE, yes, I infinitely agree with that point (By the way guys I found others, I'm not telling), but they have done things.

[OBH]

i know, you have nothing to apologise for my friend, except maybe trying to ruin a load of players fun on a game that theyve paid good money for, and trying to blame them for a problem that was caused long before :)

[stinkleroy]

Heh yeah I remember that Haydn...sparked a few debates that did ;) But it's important that you had the understanding to just let it go and get on and have fun with it in the end :)

Im not going to fuel this debate anymore, it's futile..so goodnight all! ;)

[ACE-FLO]

For the record Haydn, I didn't actually blame anyone ;) If it seems that I'm attempting to ruin their fun then I truly am sorry. For that I will apologise, that was never my intetion.

My intention was to have the rules revised to allow for 6 laps on GREEN races, instead of the 5 in the interest of the leaderboards, is all... Now, if you love the GREEN races so much - the extra lap should be a bonus for you guys, I don't see me attempting to ruin anyones fun, rather offer you a solution which provides you with an extra lap of even more GREEN fun ;)


EDIT: Night Cat, regards to the AnE :) I'm calling it a night too man - its facking late :lol

[OBH]

ahh, okay good point, didnt mean to tarnish you there mate.

but really, does it actually matter? :) the leaderboard is dead, battered, broken and bruised anyway :beer

[Darkdrium777]

Okay I'm gonna pretend I'm on a side now (Where in truth I don't really care what happens like I said)

What if some green (let's use it as a verb) to get records? Six laps isn't a solution for them, it's rather used to push them on the side. I already questioned that but it was a very small sentence.
But really, what if someone greens to get records? What if that's what's fun for them? What do you propose then? Six laps puts them out of record range automatically, so that isn't the solution.

Keep in mind there are alternatives, like entering a race filled with lesser skilled players, having a player idle on the starting grid, and even having multiple accounts can help (No suspicion that Mr.X is a great player, so he gets a free pass to first place.)

[blackwiggle]

I've never taken the multiplayer times as anything other than a curiosity, if indeed that, they have always been the most irrelevant of all the records except maybe single race.

Why are they irrelevant?
Because there is no constant to compare against apart from the length of the track, no two races are ever the same, be they raced with weapon used or as a Green league type race.
The very fact that times have always be open to manipulation from the very beginning by having a 2nd player stay rooted to the start/finish line, while another races around the track to get a fast time, makes a mockery of any credence given to gotten times.
And to add to that the total ad-hoc dispersion of the amount of turbos by the game itself in any one race.

Either you come 1st 2nd or 3rd in a particular race.
The race time for that race has absolutely no bearing on any other race that has been, or is ever going to be raced.

The only thing multiplayer times show is how lucky you have been.:D

[yeldar2097]

I wonder what would be the reaction if people who know all the glitches on the various glitchable tracks decided it'd be fun to all of a sudden dramatically improve their TT times ;)

/megalulz

If you don't care about mp race times, you don't care so don't complain.

If you don't think they mean anything, don't complain.

If you do care about them and think they mean something, cool.

I personally do take interest in mp times because I like to measure each performance against my best, trying to think of what happened/what went wrong etc... it's just something to think about. I'm guessing at least one other person will hold them in a similar light.
Just because some people take interest doesn't mean they're out to snatch records from people all the time, that's just something that may happen as a result, whether it be a bit of luck, a cleaner race, whatever.

Some people guage their performance by their final position in a race. I don't but I don't see why anyone shouldn't do that instead of looking at the tables. If you're one of these, don't complain.

If, on the other hand you're someone who takes interest in the tables and cares about your position relative to others and are unhappy about TGL, then do speak up. It's hard to know where people stand exactly, what with all this to-and-fro discussion. I'm fully aware that not everyone in this position will read/answer/know about this thread, but at least it's a start. I'm not an official Green League racer per se but I'm not too fussed about the leaderboards so it'd be a bit silly if I were to fervently disagree about it. It's kind of a think about number 1, sod everyone else approach, but I like it :)

I've done me, you do you, go from there.

[Ace3cube]

lol incredible O.O
Lots of messages.
(^_^)

[Darkdrium777]

I wonder what would be the reaction if people who know all the glitches on the various glitchable tracks decided it'd be fun to all of a sudden dramatically improve their TT times ;)Hoho. Don't tempt me there yeldar :g
I don't know if I'd find myself funny after having done it though.

[blackwiggle]

Using glitches to get a better SL or TT time is totally different because there is the 3 known constants, that is the tracks and the amount of speed pads don't change and you only ever have one craft on the track.
Move outside of the boundaries by altering one of these [bypassing sections of track] and you are stuffing it up for all, plus it a easily verifiable that somebody has used a glitch by the huge disparity between a legitimately gotten previous top time and one that isn't.

How can you judge anything like the same in a multiplayer time?
What's the point of a comparison, apart from a pure curiosity and a bit of fun over a tournament, when you have so many variables that have and will effect any given time, most of them out of your control.
Amount of players in a race, how many turbos you pick up, online LAG, if it's Green League / Avalon type race or if somebody has done a 2 player [one stationary] type run, even what version of the game will effect new over old times.
You'll never know what got them the time they did unless you were a participant.

If the Green League didn't exist openly as it does and the same times appeared on the boards, who would you go to lynch then? what would your reaction be to the individual names known or unknown to you that appear at the top of the leader boards? :P
I'm not having a go at you Ace, but can you the futility of it all.

I'm also not complaining about anything, I'm having a huge laugh at the whole topic and the points of view, most amusing.
I just can't for the life of me see how anybody can, not only take the multiplayer times seriously given their very makeup, but gets upset enough about a few times set while people were racing in the Green League that they want them to basically stop.:D:D:D

[Darkdrium777]

plus it a easily verifiable that somebody has used a glitch by the huge disparity between a legitimately gotten previous top time and one that isn't.That's not as verifiable as you might think it is unfortunately for us.

Okay I'm done with this off topic.

Back to the green league protest, unfortunately Ace this post by blackwiggle just reminded me of all the "leagues" that have started since Avalon. More specifically the team battles one, where team-mates protect each other. Now here some team mates battle the other team, while the others in first are free to green.
Where were you at the time?

I'm sorry but it's unfortunately been almost two years where various situations have popped up that have allowed people to get faster times easier. We are after all speaking about online mode, a part of the game that is constantly different. You cannot control all the variables. Close green league now on WipEout Arena, but somewhere else, in maybe the speed class you don't play, someone is doing something similar on another forum. You don't know that. This possibility is open, as well as are others blackwiggle, others and finally I have mentioned.
To be honest I don't see green league as outrageous or hypocritical as you do because of the existence of these other possibilities. Shut them all down and then I might say yes green league is not something Studio Liverpool wants us to do, but because they have not shut down the other possibilities (And doing so would really restrict the options in online) I don't see how this particular case, which can be emulated in different ways, is so totally different that it has to be discussed like this.

[kaori]

...

So why is it different for GREEN League, every WZ member BLATANTLY knows the advantages this league proviides... yet the rest of the people who play wipEout but are not members of Wipeoutzone are unaware of this GREEN format which gives its pilots unfair advantages... Is this fair?

...

People who are fast at WipEout have to know WipEout Zone, because lot of zoners, including me & green racers, invite them here (or on WipEout arEna if the guy is francophone) when we meet fast pilot online.
If we see a good time in TT or SL ranking, same thing, we contact the player.

[Temet]

Well, votes are about 84% to leave GL in peace (or don't care)... so we can let the Green wipers race in peace.

I wonder who will be the next wipers with a price on their heads... :?


EDIT : I don't understand the tag "French silent treatment", but I don't see the link between "French" and the Green League, for sure...

[SaturnReturn]

I've removed the tag.

I agree with you Temet. No-one can prove ACE wrong because it's a matter of opinion. Neither can ACE prove anyone else wrong, no matter how hard he tries. It's very frustrating when a person feels their own opinion is just 'right' and others can't see it (been there plenty of times). But all a person can do is enquire whether or not there is a consensus, and whether or not the consensus supports their own opinion. That was presumably the purpose of the thread and the vote. I think the vote speaks for itself.

As for the n00bs who don't like the idea of TGL when they find out about it - surely not telling them that those top times are because of this league would be a good way to solve that issue? Instead just point them here and to people's youtube accounts and if they can be bothered they'll get to the top too in the end. Do it that way, see if they don't then join in the various leagues on the forum too. I'd expect anyone who cares enough to become that good would do just that. That seems like a more positive way to bolster the community and help other players improve than putting them off straight away by blaming a lot of the devoted people who strive to keep the game going in the long term.

I have a question now - if everyone in TGL is mostly only using turbos, then does that make it less likely that the leader would pick up a turbo? If so, then TGL would possibly actually make top times harder because less turbos would be available for the leader, and to get those top MP times you have to lead most of the race, and get lots of turbos, and not get hit with many weapons. I don't think that's how it works because you see so many people with turbos (in normal races) sometimes, but I'm just throwing it out there.

[leungbok]

True Sat, but sometimes to help making his own opinion it's necessary to know extra stuff than the discuss itself.
In that case, some of the complainers (maybe the first complainer) did some races one vs one with friends at the release of the game, those guys were on my friendlist, and it was impossible to join their rooms because they restarted immediatly the same track, and few hours later strange new records appeared on the leaderboards :rolleyes:
So the issue is : ok to make some multiplayer records, but NOT THE OTHERS !! :bomb
WTF ???

I agree with you temet, the guys i'm talking about are the "inventors" of (secret) green races, and aren't french !! :eek

[KIGO1987]

I really wish I could read through all the pages of this thread, but 6 pages in the span of a day is just too much for me.

I voted 6 laps

Bugger me. AG-Wolf an i can agree on something, ive never in my life thought that would be possible.

I wonder who selected "close it down".

The 6lap option is the best option i believe to satisfy both parties and to keep the peace, and to put this topic to rest. But i doubt that will happen.

[Temet]

@Sat : thanks for the Tag removing. I don't know for the boosts, I think weapons in WO are totally random. If not, you couldn't get a Quake when you're first (I'd like that...).
Some weeks ago, I made a good time on Amphiseum (I think) and I had a "Well done Temet". Well, it was not well done, I had something like 7 or 8 boosts during the race (yeah, no Green League... if I'm not wrong there has been only 2 GL events until now).
Yesterday, I made some races with Ace3cube and his bro. We did some green races because we like racing like that. I made 2 races without a single boost, and didn't beat any of me my personal bests...
After 3 or 4 races, Boxman entered the place and firing. This the game, we have no problem with that, the room was public! But after that, it was not green anymore!

Oh, my personal motivation to like Green Races, is that I'm terribly slow. There is a kind of silent agreement with some racers : you don't shoot me, I don't shoot you. So, I have the choice : I can shoot Ace3cube (or any other guy I know who like to play Green), but after I may eat tons of mines or bombs. Because yeah, even if I shoot Ace3cube, I can be sure he'll catch me very quickly and win with a comfortable gap... And I really really really can't stand anymore to race among mines and bombs...
It's just a matter or personal preference. I don't try to force anybody to do the same, or the play a certain number of lap, or the hands behind the back... I'm just PLAYING the GAME as I like more! It's not a crime (yet...).

[DreamyElf]

well of course you can play the game the way you want...
as OBH said, you bought it, you own it,you play it!;)
but i don't understand why suddenly people don't like weapons in wipEout...:?:
the game was created this way and is supposed to be played that way.
you don't like weapons? cool! there is an option that says weapons OFF.

anyway, play the game as you like and enjoy most guys (and girls lol)!!!
that's what matters the most in the end! ;)
peace :)

[karsten_beoulve]

The problem with weapons OFF is that, that way the super masters of BR find themself at a loss... :g no way to get energy back!

[ACE-FLO]

If the Green League didn't exist openly as it does and the same times appeared on the boards, who would you go to lynch then? what would your reaction be to the individual names known or unknown to you that appear at the top of the leader boards? :P
I'm not having a go at you Ace, but can you the futility of it all.

For the record Blackwiggle, I never named or shamed anyone = there is no one to name or shame imo. As for lynching - WOW, who lynched anyone, anywhere on this thread :D I fail to see that, so what makes you think I'm all for lynching eh? ;) My issue is with the format of the GREEN league and my intention was to get the views of WZ members here so we can debate it = and I even added a poll so I could see at a glance the majority votes, so I can better understand the communities greater wishes regarding the issue. This is lynching? It's news to me :D

And yes, futlie as this debate may be - you still posted in it too :D I am passionate about my opinions, but am not unreasonable as you will see through this thread, if only you took the time to read through it all (which I hope you have already done, but from these quotes I'm rebuttling, I feel you havent) you wuld see that I dont target any indiviual, hmmm.. can I ask what gave you that idea?


...but gets upset enough about a few times set while people were racing in the Green League that they want them to basically stop.:D:D:D

This is what I mean BlackWiggle, attempting to put words in my mouth when my vote is clear for everyone to see in my first post in this thread, is a bit wrong don't you think? ;)

I'm pleased you enjoyed readin through it, it has made me laugh out loud too at times, especially the tennis match between Haydn and I :lol awesome stuff


People who are fast at WipEout have to know WipEout Zone, because lot of zoners, including me & green racers, invite them here (or on WipEout arEna if the guy is francophone) when we meet fast pilot online.
If we see a good time in TT or SL ranking, same thing, we contact the player.

And I commend that Kaori - I myself have had 6 recorded referrals to this site, and recommended countless others... same reason as you "wow, you got some talent kid - you know about wipeoutzone?" :) Hmmmm... what's the point?


Oh, my personal motivation to like Green Races, is that I'm terribly slow.
Lol, see what I mean people? no offence to you Temet, you speak the truth and I appreciate that !!! :)

[leungbok]

The problem with weapons OFF is that, that way the super masters of BR find themself at a loss... :g no way to get energy back!
No problem, masters of BR can also uses their great lines because they are super ! ;)

[Temet]

but i don't understand why suddenly people don't like weapons in wipEout...:?:

It's not "people". It's just "some people", a small minority.

You know, I hosted Kaori for the European Convention... and then showed him what WO2097 looks like on an emulator (= much more better graphics)... and I was so² surprised when I hit a set of mines to loose maximum 20% of my speed!
Weapons in HD slow down very too much the ships. That's my opinion, you don't have to agree on this.

As I explained, I like Green because I'm slow! DreamyElf, I'm pretty sure we were in the same room around 2 weeks ago. It was a pure slaughter and I liked it a lot, lot of fun. Why? Because for once, there were some people that are not 3 seconds faster than me per lap. :nod

[shapealot]

im all up for green races it sounds fun to me. i love doing BRs and going fast and wether its weapons on or green races ill play the same unless provoked :twisted as it has been said before setting a good time online at all is random, granted better players will have a far better chance of attaining a good time but its still random wether or not they pick up 8 turbos, this can happen in any type of race. for there to be a fair solution to all players you would would have to list how many speed pads they hit, number of times shot by which weapons, how many BRs performed, how many turbos used etc. its never going to be fair online because its up to the individual how they play. i vote for leave the green league as it is, ive never raced in it yet but would love to so PM me next time its on, thanx

[DreamyElf]

Temet,
i agree with you and i get your point mate :)
you know i'm slow too but i don't mind, i'll get better someday!
that's why i usually prefer full races with pilots better than me.
yeah, i get shot by everyone with mines and bombs but that's telling me one thing: i must improve myself ;)
anyway, have fun and see you online :)

[kanar]

hey guys.

First, wanted to confess I'm really less implicated in world of wipeout now, compared to last year. My real life wiped out my Icaras dreams, and the other cool videogames released during these last 2 years finished to put me out of the matrix. I'm just lurking quickly this place from times to times -well each days lol-, sometimes reading the post of my old good friends... Or just looking at the titles of the topics... And I just wanted to add my 2 cents here, even if everything is said with my vote; not bothered.
First, it's already had been discussed before here. (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6332) No offense Ace, I can understand you want to discuss about that matter, as you're an hardcore wipeout pilot for ages lol. But by that time, I believe there was a lot more regular pilots than nowadays. you know i firmly believe some stuffs never changed; If you want to enter the top 10 (let's talk about Connavar's ranking to be fair), you have to devote your life to the game. I mean at least 500 hours (the least you can do). And you have to be talented, basically. When you think about it, a lot of topics have the same basic answer : practice is everything. Add talent to this inhuman amount of practice, and -maybe- you'll get your ticket to the top. I tried hard myself last year. My wife was away cos' of the job. So I had a lot of spare time, and I devoted it to hd. Hardcore mode. Sometimes 5/6 hours a day, each days. And guess what? I never succeeded in getting a rank 1, despite the hours & hours of training. As Colin said recently on these boards, the main issue of hd is its awful difficulty (which is its main advantage too, cos' you have always a reason to get back to it). But you can put as many bombs you want on the track, some people are really blessed by the gods lol, and are able to win despite mayhem of the race. Why this green league idea came out? Just to enjoy the speed of hd a little more, sayin goodbye to those dumb mines, bombs and rockets. You can ask Ace3, no astonishing new WR came out of his events, and that was certainly not the purpose of these events too. Someone talked about 2 "events", with how many wipers I don't know... Because you're not talking about a massive league full of millions of players, in a million seller game played by everyone; hey this is wipeout hd, with barely... well i don't know, maybe 100 regular players in the world -and bothered by the records, prob. even less-? So my point is, as some people already said, play as you like. the green league is just another way to enjoy the game, and again as a lot of people said, you won't get any new WR easier with that type of racing. Just because of the weapon toss. All the new multiplayer world record I had the pleisure to saw with my own eyes, during these last two years, occured during regular races (I could say a lot occured during avalon events). These moments are still alive in my memories; a full grid of gentlemen knowing when & how to fire their weapons, but absolutely fairplay when they're seeing in the final lap someone able to get a record; no bomb or mines or quake dropped, and a big congrat in the end to the new heroe. People will have to realize one day that the guys in the top 10 are total super robot freaks, that's all.

[kaori]

...
but i don't understand why suddenly people don't like weapons in wipEout...:?:
the game was created this way and is supposed to be played that way.
you don't like weapons? cool! there is an option that says weapons OFF....

The question isn't "green racers don't like weapons".

Green races can be considered like a way to resurrect a very good part of WipEout Pure : the time trial multiplayer

Even if green races aren't perfect : players can't have 5 turbos by race like in TT and collisions are not off.

[Aeroracer]

my personal experience of green races....

ive never played green race official events but i have played green races with friends. its not that i dislike weapons either (cos most my games are weapons races) or i am trying to top the leaderboards, its i like to race and want to chill and cannot be bothered with the intesity of weapons on race...i just want to go around the track and chill and listen to music..i cannot be the only player who likes to do this... their must be other tired players who work hard who just want to chill and chat and play easy without the hard compettion..

then you also have the players who play green just to practise with each other to improve for the regular races too.i have done this too...

[Temet]

Lol, see what I mean people? no offence to you Temet, you speak the truth and I appreciate that !!! :)

Yeah but please don't forget the most important part of the demo mate.
I'm terribly slow and as a consequence I'm always struggling with mines and bombs. It's quickly boring ... and I often switch off the PS3 after an intensive session of mines and bombs eating.

I'm slow, so even in GL I'll never make to a top 100 in the ranking (and I really don't care). And even in GL, I often use Ag-System (even if I tried Icaras recently, Green or not).

I don't know if you ever raced with Ace3cube, but he's very fast and talented (look at his vids ;) ). I can't speak for him, but I'm 90% sure he doesn't care at all of the ranking board.

Really buddy, I don't understand this crusade against GL :frown:

[blackwiggle]

[QUOTE=ACE-FLO;177408]For the record Blackwiggle, I never named or shamed anyone = there is no one to name or shame imo. As for lynching - WOW, who lynched anyone, anywhere on this thread :D I fail to see that, so what makes you think I'm all for lynching eh? ;) My issue is with the format of the GREEN league and my intention was to get the views of WZ members here so we can debate it = and I even added a poll so I could see at a glance the majority votes, so I can better understand the communities greater wishes regarding the issue. This is lynching? It's news to me :D

The title of the thread "Green League -bane of Wipeout" and that you have named the Green League specifically in your fist post as the major perpetrator of, what in your opinion, seem dubious practices for the sole purpose of acquiring a high multiplayer rank.
Lynching was the first word I could think of, maybe not the best choice and a bit too strong a word, but the way I read the posts, and I have read them all, some several times, that's who seemed to be cast as the bad guys.

QUOTE Ace-Flo
And yes, futlie as this debate may be - you still posted in it too :D I am passionate about my opinions, but am not unreasonable as you will see through this thread, if only you took the time to read through it all (which I hope you have already done, but from these quotes I'm rebuttling, I feel you havent) you wuld see that I dont target any indiviual, hmmm.. can I ask what gave you that idea?

I've never said that you have targeted any individual, I don't know where your getting that from.
I asked a question, they have these things at the end of them called question marks {?????}
It seems you have misread them as a statement and then chose to rebut something that was never said in the first place.

And a for the "Futility of it all" as I said, not "Futility of this debate" as you are incorrectly quoting me, I was referring to the multiplayer times themselves, not this thread.

QUOTE Ace-Flo
This is what I mean BlackWiggle, attempting to put words in my mouth when my vote is clear for everyone to see in my first post in this thread, is a bit wrong don't you think? ;)

I haven't put words in your mouth ACE, you are misreading the posts and then commenting on what you think has been said, above are just 3 examples of this which I hope have been cleared up.:D

[AppleJack]

I haven't been in a green-league race (and as a rank 14 I'm probably still noobish enough that I probably wouldn't know it if I were). But to me if you want to have a race where the skills of the pilots reign supreme, and not have to worry about the weapons, turn the weapons off. One can fly around the track and not have to worry about the guy two meters in front dishing out a faceful of mines. Just don't hit too many walls as there's no way to recover your energy...

That being said I think people should be able to race any way they want. If they only want to use green pickups and absorb everything else, that's their prerogative (I sometimes do that myself depending on the situation). If they want to go all out and blast away, that's fine, too.

[leungbok]

I don't know if you ever raced with Ace3cube, but he's very fast and talented (look at his vids ;) ). I can't speak for him, but I'm 90% sure he doesn't care at all of the ranking board

And even if he cares, what's the problem with that ? :eek :eek :eek

Reminds me all the crusades here (against BRs, bsb...), it seems that the pilots that reachs top score always uses unfair stuff !! :rolleyes:

If someone wants to reach a high rank in multiplayer, green races is the right way to do it !
You want to reach a top score in sl/tt/multi ? Do the difficult BR and boosts, race in green rooms... and if you don't succeed, what will be the next complaining ??? :?
A solution anyway : play wipeout2D at playstation home ! No BR, bsb, green races or other unfair stuff !!!

[Temet]

And even if he cares, what's the problem with that ? :eek :eek :eek

That was just to point out that the creator of the GL doesn't care about ranking, so the GL was not invented to make new records ;)

[TarquinFarqhuar]

The problem with weapons OFF is that, that way the super masters of BR find themself at a loss... :g no way to get energy back!

This is the fundamental reason why I love the green league.. It enables me to br the **** outa my Ica, without worrying about, Tarquin go kaboom..nothin to do with getting new WR's. Leave the green league alone.

[karsten_beoulve]

and i would finish 20 seconds off you tarquin :D BTW, haven't sen you online lately, all is ok?

[TarquinFarqhuar]

and i would finish 20 seconds off you tarquin :D BTW, haven't sen you online lately, all is ok?

Hey man :) maybe not these days... all's well here, thnx for asking, just life getting in the way of WO :brickwall

[kaori]

I just transfer a message of a young french pilot who start WipEout HD with Playstation Plus gift and who have just talked with us on chatbox. Of course this message is formatted by me, it was a chat.


Hello !
I am new at WipEout.

I'm slow compared to the fastest pilots, but I always want improve my record.

So I avoid to shoot pilot behind me, because he's faster and I risk to knock him, and it can waste seconds.
I prefer to use turbo, I save lot of time with it, and with autopilot in some turns like Sol 2 270°, Chenghou Project hairpin or lot of turn on Modesto Heights.
I don't use bombs or mines because I'm often last.
And I prefer absorb them to do more Barell Roll to go faster.

And some guys say my records are unfair, because I should race 6 laps ? I think these persons are not interested to improve their times, because they don't use the good way to do it.


So why they complain ? It's just the jealousy !

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

ACE, why do you and other anti-Green League players still race in doubles? Half the players not shooting at you. By your logic in this thread, that's "unfair", not "the way it's meant to be played" and seems hypocritical to me. :D

[leungbok]

lol, ace too ? :eek

[KIGO1987]

This thread has evolved into repetitive dumb bullshit:(

Sorry but the same thing is being mentioned page by page, but only in different writing.

[leungbok]

When someone starts that kind of thread, it's not surprising, lol !

[Darkdrium777]

Idk, I have only three pages here so it kinda flows better :g
But yeah I mentioned the doubles and team problems a while back. I'm sure others did before me too.

[Asayyeah]

First, wanted to confess I'm really less implicated in world of wipeout now, compared to last year. My real life wiped out my Icaras dreams, and the other cool videogames released during these last 2 years finished to put me out of the matrix. I'm just lurking quickly this place from times to times
High five Kanar , we are on the same boat :)

I will vote leave as it is, my experience into green races is quite limited, MadIce told me recently i did took part of one of those months ago but trust me i did fired all the weapons i had :redface:, i thought green at that time refered to price of 'best gardener' won at Euro Convention but not :redface:. Last weekend at MadIce place I had my first true session of GR with Cat & AnE & Andybob : i did enjoyed it a lot (same for the funny tchat). Leave it as it is, imho.

Back to the time of Pure when i was truly involved into that game, a part of my game experience has been ruined by CFW, suspecting people to use it and bla bla bla, now with time ahead, I do think I was living the game a bit too passionated. It's in human nature to be passionnated but not to forget it's only a game , and gaming is for fun. Then adding to this : in this current world we push everyone to get the better of them , to put them into direct concurrency of everyone, to get a constant competition fight. Can you picture how people will react into a game that displays a leaderboard : like they do in their normal life : competition(suggested or hidden). Then like into your life , you will put limit or not on way acheiving to be the best or one of the best. Any will use shortcuts or 1 vs 1 races, others green races or whatever can be found and simply others won't use these and play the old way purist 'stick-to-the-ground'.

Back to 2097/XL i did annoyed few people with those shortcuts, but at that time i was not playing thinking :" by playing like this i am happy to ruin experience from others" , no, no, definitely no; I was only thinking to get the best feeling/sensation of speed and flying high with those shortcuts was deeply which gets me attached/linked to that game till now. This game is still the best balanced one from the serie : you got 4 ships to get weapons, use shortcuts at your risk and get great fights, Pirahna no weapons only the speed matters and almost no shortcut possible. My best wipeout moment will stay forever those ilinks we did Al & me in Vermont. Just brilliant game.[end of 2097/XL sublimal advertising :g]

[ACE-FLO]

Doubles ... hmmm, good point there actually :+ Ok I'm outta doubles, Xpand is dead anyway... and um Team Englad can defo do without me so :D It's me vs the world now LOL :g happy? I am giggling my tits off I tell ya :D

[Darkdrium777]

I am giggling my tits off I tell ya :Dhttp://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5589/76362578.gif

So let me get this straight, you're gonna stop playing the way you like to play, just to win this argument?

[ACE-FLO]

lol, I'm no martyr DD777 LOL, the clue is in your quote mate :D

I'm still racing doubles, if I wasnt - I'd have posted in the doubles thread ;) and the others too :g

Guys, you need to chill out a lil. It's avalon ffs :g 'ave a good time will ya? :g

[Temet]

This thread became ridiculous.
Votes are significant enough to close this pointless discussion.

I hope not to see again a post flamming another way of playing.

[Danterich]

Yes Temet!
If i could vote twice, i would choose "close it(THIS THREAD) down" :lol