Need to Vent!!!

[Fasty]

OK, I apologise for this in advance, but I need to let off some steam.

Here goes.

I am SICK SICK SICK of the "sticky walls" in Wipeout HD. Instead of scraping along and just taking a tiny speed hit like I could in 2097, if I spend a few seconds too long on the walls I come to nearly a complete stop. Terrible, hate it, so frustrating.

I want to be able to "grind" around corners again. In chengou project, it's ridiculous that I can't grind around that sloped left corner early on. I mean, I can actually jump the barrier if I want and ride around on the edge and then struggle to get back on the track before the tunnel, but it's just not the same :)

Chengou project highlights many annoyances I have. I hate that when I land after the big drop, there is no way of not hitting the ground with a clunk, no matter how hard I pull my nose up. I'd like to be able to glide down gracefully like in 2097 please. Or nosedive if I so choose, so I can get those weapon/speed pads instead of helplessly flying over the top of them.

Again in Chengou project. When I fall off, I keep my thumb on the throttle ready for respawn and go flying off the edge again thanks to being pointed towards the exact place I fell off. Love that one.

This is a general one. I'm coming in the top three or thereabouts, and in the last lap I'll get hit by a rocket or missile or something and get put back into 8th. The difference between 1st and 8th is too small. If I'm coming 1st and fall off the track, should I be 8th when I respawn? I don't think so.

Sigh. I feel a bit better now. People may accuse me of being bitter just because I'm not that great at the game, but I think a good game is enjoyable even when you lose. I use World of Goo as an example. I love losing in that game, it's still fun.

Thoughts?

[Cerbis]

No thoughts, but a few hints.
For the first left on Chenghou Forward, you'll need to learn the exact line you need for your craft. It varies a little, but it's more than possible to take the turn without slamming into a wall. It just requires precise use of maximum airbrake.
As for the fall; You'll see much greater results from pitch up and pitch down if you do the pitch correction BEFORE you leave the jump. Adjusting while falling does not give as much, if any, results.

[stinkleroy]

Sadly HD is a completely different beast than 2097, sideshifting is key in HD. Master the sideshift and you'll find the walls less of an annoyance :)

I hear ya though, took a long time for me to get the feel of HD physics when being used to 2097 for so long. Keep trying :)

[ACE-FLO]

:+ how true. Well said Cerbis. Each ship does indeed have its own line. S-lapping should help you find it. Also, unlike the old wipEouts - the new ones (pure pulse and HD Fury) utilise the Barrel Roll mechanic. I really do advise finding the spots to get some BRs out from, once you find your racing lines :)

Funnily enough Fasty, I kinda understand your gripe with the game. I felt the saem when I picked up Pure... What? Wall grinding gone forever? sacrilege :( and Barrel Roll? wtf? ...

thing is, now I can't imagine W'O" without the harsh slow downs for marrying walls, and the Barrel Rolls - so much fun in internal view :g

Good luck mate :)

[Mr Phlanj]

it was all about wall grinding of 2097, how you could hear your tail grind the wall but the game allowed for a little grinding without hurting your shield.

i think pulse is the worst for stiky walls, you think a tap away from the wall would sort it out but it will drag you pack into it if u dont go far enough.

ahhh i remember when i did my 1st br, me and haydn (coz he was watching me) were "OMG WTF WAS THAT!!!!" then we spent the next few days mashing the psp buttons when we got some air to try and figure out how i had done it.

[KIGO1987]

Thats got me thinking. Imagine a Wipeout HD with the 1080p rendering and 5.1 surround sound, still with the same tracks and all but with the gaming dynamics of the ships from 2097, now that would be sweet! Barrel Rolls can bugger off in exchange for the return of the hyperthrust from Wip3out, now that will be a game that i would love :donut

[ACE-FLO]

ahhh i remember when i did my 1st br, me and haydn (coz he was watching me) were "OMG WTF WAS THAT!!!!" then we spent the next few days mashing the psp buttons when we got some air to try and figure out how i had done it.

A quick look in the maual woulda...:D But yeah, I found it on Pure, and loved it so much that I just kept on doing the Barrel Rolls on the 123-KLAN track in Speed Lap mode :D Hated it everywehre else though at first. I played on medium difficulty on Pure, and the cheating bastard A.I was pulling off BRs, which upset me coz I couldn't pull off the same ones :( Aw, lost my copy of Pure now but man that game was a visual treat.

I was pissed with Pulse at first too, coz it looked like shite compared to Pure. Disappointing initially, but found Pulse easier to complete and the fact that it had online pultiplayer capability was awesome. Pulse was the first game I ever played online too :) What an addiction that turned out to be :) Oh, and the BR's were easier to pull off in PUlse since I alreadyt learned the technique in Pure.

I first had a gripe with HD / Fury too, would you believe. Stunning game, but Metropia White in Pulse looks nothing like Metropia Reverse in HD. That was a MASSIVE disappointment for me, since Metropia White in PUlse was my most raced on track, favourite... and in HD - they changed it :evil .. yeah, I still haven't gotten over that one I'm afraid :twisted

[OBH]

Personally I think the games better. I remember talking to Saturn some time ago now about how "hitting walls should never been encouraged". It is a racing game after all. Lets be honest, as cool as grinding was, it was a bit disappointing having a hugely challenging corner taken perfectly simply by crashing into a wall at the correct angle.

Chenghou is for many though, the real nightmare track, because all the new mechanics and skills required for a tidy lap on CP.

CP used to be most hated track, now it is by far my favourite. All i can suggest is check out some youtube vids on CP, and suss out the long left hander. That corner alone can teach you an awful lot on pitching.

[yeldar2097]

Hitting walls shouldn't be encouraged...except on chenghou project round the first hairpin where it is a must ;)

Thoughts? Well initially the walls seem to attract you like a mag-strip, it's true. I remember thinking that when I first started. Rather "Where the **** is my wall grind?!" :lol

You get used to it after a while and now they don't seem so sticky, even when you do hit them. I'd wager at least half of my SL PBs are 'non'perfect' laps.

I do miss the whole floating down onto the track thing from 2097 et al. Was awesome gliding down to the track after an epic jump. Nowadays you just have to Barrel Roll when you land to keep your speed up. Not complaining :)


Hope the game gets less frustrating for you, it really is awesome you know :nod

[Aeroracer]

@fasty

i understand your annoyance of wall scrapes..

i used to cry about them and those little wall nuts that petrude from wall that send you from 800kph to -10kph backwards and upwards into space totally ending any chance of a fast time.

the near invisible obstactles i know where they are and always try to steer well clear..

as for wall scrapes, like stinkleroy says its all about sideshift which helps u of the wall when you are in a wall scrape scenario

experience in the game also helps and on some corners on phantom even though they may be possible to do for some elite players it may prove prudent just to slow down a little to take them..like chengu first hiarpin corner on phantom..
for me i cant really take that at full speed i just like bounce off the wall..

all i can say is when u have played as long as some of these players you will be able to overcome the anoyance of wall scrapes hence why they do not complain themselves as they can overcome most situations..

[DreamyElf]

A quick look in the maual woulda...:D But yeah, I found it on Pure, and loved it so much that I just kept on doing the Barrel Rolls on the 123-KLAN track in Speed Lap mode :D Hated it everywehre else though at first. I played on medium difficulty on Pure, and the cheating bastard A.I was pulling off BRs, which upset me coz I couldn't pull off the same ones :( Aw, lost my copy of Pure now but man that game was a visual treat.


i agree ace, due to the fact that i was playing pure with the shitty analog stick on psp it was almost impossible to get a succesful BR! :brickwall

Fasty you shouldn't be discouraged.
when i first played HD i thought the same because i was used to the handling of pure.
but it turned out to be a lot easier than pure.you just have to learn BRs as mentioned above and master the side-shifting!
you WILL laugh in a couple of months when you read this very thread!
trust me, you just need practice, a LOT of practice!
Chenghou P is by far my fav track and i used to hate it back then...:)

[Fasty]

Wow so many replies, it's interesting reading so many varied opinions

To Cerbis, I'd actually forgotten about THAT corner amazingly haha, I was referring to the long bend after the two jumps following that corner. That first corner is ridiculously hard... I don't think even wall-scraping could help me manouver that one. It's a good challenge though.

And jasmin-jade I'd completely forgotten about that little chestnut too, being flung 1000 miles into the sky after running into some unseen obstacle and having to wait forever to land just so I can be respawned miles behind the pack! Good times :D haha yes that's sarcasm!

Well I can agree that "hitting the walls shouldn't be encouraged", that doesn't mean it can't be fun if/when one accidentally does. I was quite good at 2097, and the better I got the less walls I hit and the faster my times got. So really, there was no advantage to hitting the walls because the clean run got the best times anyway.

Anyway I'm going to go try Chengou Project again keeping all these hints in mind!

[JABBERJAW]

!!!! I don't get this? I find the game WAY too easy compared to 2097. In those games, it gave you wall scrape, but only the slightest amount before "clunk" and complete stop. everyone in the top 10 is within about 1-2 seconds of each other in HD since you can ride the walls, as long as you keep your nose off of it. I want it to be harder, not easier. At the tourney I saw complete blasting into the wall on the last chenghou reverse turn, basically being the same speed as getting a perfect turn, it was frustrating to see that. The game should be about not hitting. That being said, those fast ships would suffer badly though, in that it is harder to not hit, and they would not be fast enough to catch back up, but that would be where speed would need to be increased. In the older games, pitching back is what really allowed the wall scraping, but slowed you down slightly (your ship came off the track more, giving more space for the scrape). On the newer games your ship just tilts back, gives you no extra space. And yes, that sucking into the wall is occasionally very frustrating, but we can at least control that part by staying away from the walls. It is nowhere near as bad as hitting one mine and being out of the race (mini-rant :) )

ON a side note, people are talking like 2097 or XL are easy to fly perfectly. If this is so, I'd like to see some times put in the records tables for more competition. There needs to be more people on those tables.

[akirapill]

Man all I want is the glowy bits on the ships back like in wip3out, you know the parts that shined when you went through a dark tunnel. They were awesome.

[Cerbis]

The long left bend after the two jumps? Oh, that one's really easy in comparison to the first one.
Just push your nose down as hard as you can and keep a gentle left. It'll keep you from bouncing all over the slanted turn.

[yeldar2097]

for me i cant really take that at full speed i just like bounce off the wall..

That's the way you should be doing it ;)

I on the whole agree with JABBERJAW, 2097 is harder than WOHD by miles. Granted I'm much better at HD but that's not the point. Getting a fast time in HD does require a bit of skill, but not as much as 2097 (and probs the other oldies but I never played them so I can't be sure): WOHD is more about knowing the BRs, where to boost etc... I'd say the vast majority of people (i.e. people who aren't obsessed :P ) won't have anywhere near the same technique/knowledge of the tracks as say, the Top 50-ish. In 2097 there are less gimmicky features that can give others a massive advantage purely by knowing them. Yes there are massive shortcuts but a good, non-shortcutty time in 2097 is far harder to achieve than one in HD. I did some testing on APRev and found that without Boosts or BRs a 5 lap race is up to 8 seconds slower than one including them. 8 Seconds in Wipeout is a lot you know, and I'd wager it's at least one of the reasons people are often left scratching their heads at how to break the top ranks. It's not so much a difference in skill, more a difference in knowledge. Only reason I can keep up with people is because I live on youtube (thank you kind people :D). Problem is, not everyone does.
...Something like that, I'll stop now; need someone who knows what they're talking about to re-iterate my on-the-fly ramblings :lol

[AG-wolf]

Hitting walls shouldn't be encouraged...except on chenghou project round the first hairpin where it is a must ;)
You know, I still can't pull this off... part of me thinks it's cheap as f*ck to just bash into the wall even IF it's a glitch which maintains all my speed, but aside from that I just could never find that "sweet spot." I always end up taking the turn "properly"

But regarding the topic at hand;
Fasty: I agree with your frustration wholeheartedly... if you think it's bad in WOHD, you should try Pulse. It's one of the primary reasons I refuse to even play that game at all.

Al & yeldar: I don't understand how you of all people say XL/2097 is more difficult than WOHD... XL is a CAKEWALK compared to Pulse/HD's physics. I've already uploaded some of my own times to the tables ;) But I echo the sentiment of other people to put forth the effort...

I still think XL is more forgiving when it comes to wall penalties though. Sure, you only have a finite zone for "scraping" before you bash into it with a "clunk," but in HD, there's no middle ground... either you hit the wall and stop just like in XL, or if you try to grind/scrape against it, your ship sticks to it like glue or velcro. Countless times I've just barely grazed the wall in HD, only to watch as the rest of my ship just attaches itself from nose to tail right into the side of the track and brings me to a complete halt for a second and a half...


Maybe my issue is that I grew up with the older games and they've just burned themselves into my mind. I'm passable at HD, but I can nearly always fly perfect and smooth laps in WO1, XL, and 64... and I even used to be good at 3 back in the day, though I'm long out of practice.

Fasty: Just stick with HD, it's at least still rewarding to play once you improve.

[Fasty]

Thanks for the encouragement AG-wolf. Even though it frustrates me I keep playing so it must have something going for it!

I'll enter some 2097 times tomorrow, will be interested to see how my times from all those years ago stack up

[ACE-FLO]

!!!! I don't get this? I find the game WAY too easy compared to 2097.

So do I. In fact, I think most would agree. But I think the point Fasty may be making is the gripe leading from having to learn a technique (wall scraping) then having to totally abandon it for a future version of the game, and now he's being advised that there are other techniques to master, like Side Shifting and Barrel Rolling... it's the same story all over these boards, they changed this - they changed that, what to do?... that kinda thing. I love it :)

@Fasty, this thread of yours here, allowed me to analyze my own lil gripes with the various wipeouts, and it's been quite fun man :) Especially since, I've really got no real gripes about the games anymore ;)

btw, there's a WIpeout HD Video group in social groups section - I have no doubt the video links there will help you greatly, they're still helping me man :)

EDIT: here's the link to the group - http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/group.php?groupid=38

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

ON a side note, people are talking like 2097 or XL are easy to fly perfectly. If this is so, I'd like to see some times put in the records tables for more competition. There needs to be more people on those tables.
Hehe, I don't think it's easy at all. I just got 2097 recently (although I've played it a little, years ago) and I can't get any times worth putting in the record tables! :lol

With the glue walls in HD and especially Pulse, I find it really irritating. Being stuck to a wall for 5 seconds or so is ridiculous, especially when it "sucked you in" rather than you really hitting it. I'd actually even prefer the brutal way the original Wipeout deals with wall hits tbh. :D

[Aeroracer]

i downloaded wipeout 1 off ps3 store..


wow its hard espicially in the fast ships (quirex and auiricom) and on the fast speed class..but it is rewarding when you can fly without crashing as crashing really slows you in wipeout..

i do not like the fact that crashing in hd is ok cos it makes the game less pure.but then nothing is perfect so i just acept it...

As this thread is about needing to vent here is my vent....

a minority of top players who are serial quitters they give up as soon as they get shot or crash some have even quit cos they lost the turbo start to the first pad..but they have no problem playing when things are in their favour.when i mean quit they just put the game pad down and sit on the track.I cant believe how much this happens with certain players
imo its poor sportsmanship.
and im not talking about my controller battery died mid race..thse are just pure quitters who quit cos things didnt go in their favour..

novice players quit but i can accept that as they sometimes enter a race and did not realise they were out of their depth..

and i can understand players who quit midrace cos the race rules were changed and they did not realise and wouldnt have played them if they knew.

i never quit in a race i will always try my hardest out of respect for the other players so when they win it was a worthy win not given to them .

[amplificated]

I don't like a lot of the corners in HD either; not only are they sticky, but I reckon you hit them before you actually make contact a lot of the time as well. Try and stick as close to the wall as possible on the long right hander in Tech De Ra reverse - I see sparks coming out of thin air if I go too close ot the wall! Frustrating as. Though at this point in time I've mostly come to grips with the locations of these areas and remember to give them enough room.


@ Wipeout 1: I dl'd that off the PSN to see what it was like as well, and I just couldn't come to grips with how the ships handled. It was more like how I remembered WO, and it was totally weird. Stopped playing after about 30 minutes and haven't touched it since xP

[JABBERJAW]

wipeout 1 is better on the playstation. the psn version is some sort of odd hybrid of something, it doesn't really feel like the pal or ntsc version. the ps1 version is really good with a negcon though agwolf is quite good with a dpad.\

"Only reason I can keep up with people is because I live on youtube (thank you kind people ). Problem is, not everyone does.
...Something like that, I'll stop now; need someone who knows what they're talking about to re-iterate my on-the-fly ramblings "

keep up with people, you are the best one on the records tables from what I have seen, consistently 1,2,3.

That is cool you did that test, 8 seconds per race, wow, alot there.

I would also prefer the scrape until too hard, then "clunk", People would stop blasting walls (in some areas) and still get fast times. I would be a recipient of this said "clunk" :)

I do agree on some turns though that it does "suck" you into the wall way too easily with a minor touch. this stoppage should be reserved for hard hits (but hard hits everywhere though)

EXPERT MODE ANYONE ?

[Fasty]

Ok I just checked my 2097 records and they don't even come close to the records on the site :( But I played a few races and it came back so quickly, man I love that game!

[JABBERJAW]

I wanted to clarify the HD difficulty, the game is STILL A HARD GAME. It is incredibly difficult to get near yeldar saturn, ect. You really need to know what you are doing, and then actually be able to do it. I was just saying I like the difficulty style of xl more, being you need a perfect race to have a great time.

The guys who are playing 2097 should give XL a try, it is a different game. 2097 is close to flying, where xl is more like floating, and a little smoother. I would also say it is a little easier because of this.

[Temet]

@Fasty : I terribly understand your feeling!!!!!
The top for me is on the mag strip... I'm really often attacted by walls and stuck to them 'till I'm almost stopped...

@Jasmin : Wipeout 1 was very hard. I got it after 2097 more than 10 years ago and I remember I struggled seriously to finish that game... you can't touch a wall and can never leave the others several seconds behind you...
But hey, the tracks were a lot better, and A LOT longer! :)

[karsten_beoulve]

My 2 cents; I'm an older player and i like wipeout, wipeout2097 and wip3out a LOT more, and i consider them easier and more rewarding to play to play.

i think the main problem with HD are BRs. I can do great lines and all, but no way i can do all the sick BRs... that leaves me always a lot behind, since this game is quite havily BR based.

in any case i never leave the pad or rage quit. you know, you can always try new lines even if you're in the last position!

[leungbok]

Guys like Yeldar, Pirahpac, Eric7dm, Dark-Phantom, Unctuous are not bad at performing BR, but they win because of their good lines ! In no weapon races 6 BRs maximum are possible, and more often 3 or 4 because of ramming and wall hits, what do you think that makes the difference if it's not lines ?
Also, there's the possibily of creating NO BR races, in that case you'll never be lot behind with your great lines !

[Temet]

Indeed, I never saw "NO BR" races online!!!!
I thought several times to create one but I fear nobody would join :cold

I'm not a "anti BR" guy, but sometimes, just to change a bit, I'd like to make some old-school races.

I should try WO3, I'm just I would try to BR, just by habit :)

[amplificated]

I think that lines are 80% of what will pull you through in a typical single/online race; but when looking at TT's and especially speed laps, BR's are integral as they can change the lines and boost locations you need to take, sometimes significantly - and there's absolutely no way you could get anywhere near the top times without them.

There are a lot of advanced BR's that are just too risky to try in online races, as you aren't guaranteed to nail them every time. So yeah, online, lines are a good portion of what you need to be good at following; the other things contributing to winning being mostly lucky with pickups, and only a small bit being good at BR's. They're pretty much just icing on the cake.

And as much as I like BR's, there are some that are just insanely hard to pull off! Here's looking at you, BR coming out of the initial left on AP :P

[yeldar2097]

Well this isn't really that helpful but here's some data for funsies :g

Anulpha Pass Reverse - 5x Boost - 25x BR - Icaras - 1.45.08

Anulpha Pass Reverse - 0x Boost - 0x BR - Mirage+ - 1.53.47


Personally I thought the difference of 25BRs and 5 lovely boosties would be much greater than that.... Of course, the difference will vary from track to track and both of these times could no doubt be improved but it's interesting to see. Kinda :)

[brainbeat]

I've never been able to take that corner hitting wall I allways slowdown I use to just save autopilot and shield for it lol. Now can take every time without hitting and slowing down. Except foron phantom woul be one in four laps lol

[karsten_beoulve]

Nobody enters no BR races or stays more than a race... so i stopped bothering creating them :D

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not bitter about Brs, i can do the basic and obvious ones, but i just resign myself not to be high in lap times or winning races against good people that easily performs those hard BRs.

There's a reason for me having a ratio of 120 out 2000 races wins :D

[amplificated]

Were those TT or SR times Yeldar?

It's just that there's less than 6% difference between those times, so my 80% lines and only a tiny bit being BR's theory is on track so far! xP especially if those are TT's
It'd probably be hard to test the luck with weapons/items bit though, since it's all random... would probably need 2 people playing against each other and seeing which # of used items were effective to get a result, but I don't think it's worth getting into :P

[Connavar]

Yeldar: try some 4 TT like this:

0 turbo, max BR, max SS
0 turbo, 0 BR, max SS
0 turbo, max BR, 0 SS
0 turbo, 0 BR, 0 SS

Then we'll have a better idea of what's going on, how much the BR and SS help.
My intuition is that SS help a lot more than expected by many.

And Fasty: I also hated sticky walls, until I learned how to detach from them
using a sideshift, at first I was still wasting time because I did the SS too late,
but now it's become a reflex so I'm almost instantly going away from the wall
when I hit it. Do the same.

[Xavier]

I actually found Pulse to be worse with the "sticky walls". Coming from Pure -- the first Wipeout game I could actually be good at -- and then seeing my speed drop to zero instead of glancing off the wall and moving on was pretty tough.

Viewing the action from the pilot's seat was of course impossible because you had no idea how much ship there was between your "head" and the wall. Maybe if the edges of the ships were clearly indicated (with some kind of red-and-white striped warning strip on the side) and it had a good contrast with the wall, it would be easier to tell how far you are from it.

[yeldar2097]

Were those TT or SR times Yeldar?

TT :)

Yeah I'll do that test in a bit Conna. Although it will make a massive difference which track I choose of course....maybe I'll do a few :P

[Connavar]

Do this on the 24 tracks of the game, make sure to repeat the process 3 times
to average the times and reduce the errors, this should give you 24x4x3 = 288
times, with this we can plot a graph.
Ok thanx bye!

[ProblemSolver]

Yeah I think yeldar could do it. xD

[yeldar2097]

-_-;;

[MrSmadSmartAlex]

I actually found Pulse to be worse with the "sticky walls". Coming from Pure -- the first Wipeout game I could actually be good at -- and then seeing my speed drop to zero instead of glancing off the wall and moving on was pretty tough.
I think it's worse too, especially on magstrips. It seems like maybe parts of the tracks slope down at the very edges, and because you can't bounce up when you're on a magstrip, you only go down this slope quicker and it's harder to get off the wall. Just a theory.

[JABBERJAW]

yeldar, could you actually do that initial test with no barrel rolls, but use all your boosts. Boosts are the same for everyone, so we can see the difference. I bet there is only going to be a 4 second difference. Could you use the icarus like the one you did with the 25 barrel rolls and all the boosts?

[Aeroracer]

Question to all great players in the know..

with barrel rolls..do all ships do the same length and spped when they turbo or barrel roll or are some ships more faster or better at these..


opps off topic..my moan today is......i hate it when my joypad dies:cowboy

[yeldar2097]

1.50.11 - 5x Boost (Same boost location) - 0x BR - Icaras

[JABBERJAW]

so every barrel roll is only giving you a .20 second advantage, not much, unless you do 25 :)

The motion blur fools you into thinking it goes faster than what it is really doing. In pulse it REALLY mattered with the barrel rolls, extreme speed difference. Pulse was significant as well.


thanks for that test

[karsten_beoulve]

weird, from my experiences in time trials on many tracks, a BR gives a .4 sec advantage and a speedpad around .2

this is what i found out in those boring 99 laps trainings :)

[leungbok]

a BR gives 0.15 to 0.30 of advantage at phantom speed ! It depends if you go straight, turn, rise or descend !

[OBH]

must be much more on slower speeds

[amplificated]

yeah I reckon a solid BR will give you around a second on Venom

[SaturnReturn]

There's some interesting stuff here, so if someone wants to make a new thread to discuss and test how much time things are worth in different modes then that would be best, as we're a way off-topic now.

Thanks.