Looking competitively at Wipeout.

[ONlock]

Wipeout is a fast paced racing game, how come it's not seen as a competitive title for gamers out there?

I do love playing games competitively, but getting Wipeout Pure/Pulse/HD, I was tremendously disappointed about the online community. As far as i know, no real competetive webpage exist that supports the wipeout games as true competitive games. And no ongoing competitions are held online, apart from the annual gathering, by the most die hard wipeout players. And the record tables of www.wipeoutzone.com.

So how come?

Firstly game design:

Let me first say; Wipeout rocks! No racing game has ever had me so spellbound as this one, When you first get started, It's very easy to understand and get a sense of the controls, and as you progress and become a better pilot, more technique and finesse is required to keep on track. Trying to beat my best lap records is the actually the times that these games have been the most fun for me. They have a badass, futuristic look, that any sci-fi fan must love, Good ship balance. And the sense of speed is unmatched!

Random weapon pickups is a fun mechanic, but mostly for sinlge player(And casual online matches of course), but is one of the things that gives it much less appeal as a comptetive game for many people. Just because.. it's random!

Barrel rolls..

A controversial choice by the developers, many did not like this compared to the "pit-stop" in "Wip3out", personally i think they are a neat way of including more "skill" into the game, but i can see the effect such choices have on communities like this, because it meant; choosing your racing line in a different way, and would have a negative effect on the community where you would have the ones specializing in following the speed pads, and you would have the others that would be searching for the bumpiest line of the track to perform their barrel rolls. Where the latter often would be the fastest.

I think the developers should have paid more attention to making it a more competitive game for the ones that have interest in competing, by including things like, chat rooms in game lobbies, better possibilities to compare lap times, Game modes designed for fair head to head racing, where your skills as a pilot is more important than what weapon pickups you happen to pick up along the way. support for team based racing/eliminator modes. The community features that comes with PS3 are nice, but they are't enough I'm afraid.

Fair head to head racing does exist in Wipeout HD, Don't get me wrong, but you can just forget to barrel roll, doing that will only wreck your ship over time.

The wipeout gameplay itself is to good to be played only as a casual game, I think that if things had been more planned ahead, this could have been a pretty big racing game by now(competitively speaking of course).

That's my five cents about this game.

[SaturnReturn]

There's plenty of competition.

See the Arena section:
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10

See Connavar's ranking site too:
http://wipeout.gamerstats.net/

Frequent Avalon events:
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7058

There's also competition over on the other forum.

None of it is officially supported, and some things don't always run for all that long as they can be difficult to organise, but it is plenty competitive for the devoted fans of the game. I think anyone who has achieved a world record only to find it beaten a few hours later will attest to that.

EDIT: BTW welcome. You may well be talking of the kind of competition in other games that I don't really have experience with. So I'm not trying to say you're wrong or anything - just pointing out a few other ways we compete with each other around here, for your info.

[eLhabib]

ONlock, I know exactly what you're talking about - some things in wipEout HD are just not suited to competitive playing. Barrel Rolls and random pickups aside, there are other things which were simply left out, which looks like an oversight to me, for example:

- every other half-serious racing game out there has a lobby that shows the outcome of the previous races dynamically, meaning that if you win a race, it will be displayed in the lobby afterwards. When someone new enters the lobby, he will see immediately who the strong players in this lobby are. In some games you can even list the players in a lobby in order of their number of victories. This might just seem like a little issue to some, but as it is now in wipEout HD, the outcome of a race becomes meaningless as soon as it's over. I think adding this simple stat to online lobbies would add a ton to competitive gaming.

- the ranking is simply broken. It cannot be said differently, that's a fact. A ranking system that gives you points for standing idle on the starting grid is simply ridiculous, I don't know who came up with this idea, but it should be seriously revised by SL. Look at SFIV for inspiration - a trueskill ranking system that gives you points depending on how skilled your competitors are, and that actually REDUCES your rank if you lose! This way the ranking would actually be an approximate representation of how capable a player is, unlike now, where I'm easily beating some players 30 ranks above me, just because I don't play that often...

- integrated text chat in the lobby, an absolute must if you ask me.

- REWARDS. I cannot stress enough how much this would improve competition online. Reach a certain online rank (given there's a new, functioning ranking system, of course) and you will earn a special skin for your racecraft. Simple as pie, really.

- Custom skins. I know this is not as easy to implement as everyone believes, but heck, just give us a slider to adjust the colors or something, or maybe a simple, shape-based decal tool like Forza has! This would add so much to the online community, seeing as everyone wants to be individual, and wants to be remembered when he dominates an online lobby.

I sincerely hope that SL reads this, and if they ever do another bonus content addon for HD, it would be great to see some of these things implemented.

[Dan Locke]

- Custom skins. I know this is not as easy to implement as everyone believes, but heck, just give us a slider to adjust the colors or something, or maybe a simple, shape-based decal tool like Forza has! This would add so much to the online community, seeing as everyone wants to be individual, and wants to be remembered when he dominates an online lobby.
The funny thing is that Pulse had this back in 2007.

[Kyonshi]

Here's my input and what i reply about:

Weapon Pads: This is a trademark of WipEout, it's there to stay, whether you like it or not. Now i'm not saying its prefect, far from it. At least for competitiveness. What should be done is making the weapons pads respawn more quickly.

An example of what aggravates the competition at the most frustrating point is being stuck between 2 guys, the first grabbing the pick-up so you're left with nothing, and having the one following you pick the respawn. So there you go, you have the possibility of having Mines/Bombs dropped in your face and all the remaining shooting weapons being shoved up your ass. That's just DUMB. As far as im concerned, SL should modify/patch the respawn frequency with one of those alternatives:

- Permanently quicker
- They give us the possibility to adjust it, from Inactive to Normal to Quicker.
- They redesign the Pads distribution on the track by doubling them on the width and even one over the other (which is unlikely to happen, therefore it remains a solution).

Barrel Rolls: I don't know why there's a big fuss about this. BRs cost Energy. Do them as much as you want, you will likely be ahead for a long time and even lap people, true. But you'll just put a sword of Damocles right over your head, as laping Bombs and Mines may just **** you up, or you'll get surprised by a Quake when you're on the verge of collapsing from critical energy. And yes, its true that it offers another level of gameplay, a good addition to spice up the action.

Of course, the best players can Barrel-roll-Fest and know where to recharge, having every action well timed to do so, and beat everyone else big time. But there, that's not called unfairness, that's call experience and practicing. And that's legitimate. Anyway, BRs can be disabled, so if some people dont fancy them, turn them off.

I agree with eLhabib, lobbies should be more elaborated with specific stats and infos about pilots. Voice chat is a must, for those who feel its a necessity, particularly during WWC events. If some people don't like hearing people talking, turn it off or activate it with chosen people.

I dunno where the hell are the custom skins, this issue shouldn't be still around as any goddamn game that offers online competition MUST have customization features for your character/car/WipEout ship. Developers MUST take the time to implement even the most basic custom features, such as color sliders, like eLhabib also mentioned. Personalization of your virtual-self is one important key-element to give long life span to an online game. Enhance it with custom skins/stickers rewards, and its a total win.

I just hope SL takes notes about all we are saying, and concentrate on such features, instead of trying to make unwanted ads work better...

[yeldar2097]

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said (esp lobby stats and rewards. I want a reward :g)

Just a couple of things:
Barrel Rolls in 20 lap non-weapons races can make all the difference, I would say winning a 20 lap no laps races just because you manage 5-6 BRs is cheap, simply because you have to go for about 7mins with only 10% shields whilst also trying to keep super tight lines. I do agree that SL/TT is just a BR bonanza...but I like that :D


Random weapon pickups......Just because.. it's random!

But at the end of the day the best team won the Wipeout World Cup so it's all good. Teehee :P

Ok I'll stop being silly now. Can't really think of anything else to add on top of what's already been said; some long-ass posts have stolen all my ideas ;)

Now to cross my fingers and hope SL still like us ^_^

[ProblemSolver]

I wanted to write something similar a few months back about the competitive
component of WipEout HD....

What I wanna say is the following;

It's about time to make Wipeout a real competitive tournament game!

A tournament game that is recognized in the world and is tracked on various
tournament webpages like many other games. The principles of Wipeout are
written in stone -- the game works!

The best thing I can envision is playing a huge Wipeout tournament on a stage
with a great team against others to race for victory, and to have a lot of fun
while the event lasts. Best of all, SL and / or Sony could organize some
official tournaments which may offer special prizes, for example, what about
some high quality Wipeout clothes, special in-game items, or whatever? Just
imagine! Official tournaments can also be organized at trade-shows to show off
the greatness of the Wipeout universe, its lifestyle, which may tie a lot of
people to the Playstation brand and / or the game itself. A win-win situation,
for sure.

How to get there? Well, I would pimp up WipEout HD to some degree, i.e. I would
add more tracks, more teams, ironing out all the bugs, etc., and I would
reconsider every thing to check whether it fits the tournament requirements.
The second part would be to implement a full-blown in-game tournament system
that leaves no question to be answered!

I call this new game; WipeouT HiNRG.

T for tournament and HiNRG for high energy, pronounced; Wipeout t high n r g. :D

Like WipEout HD, WipeouT HiNGR could become a show-case title as well, a title
that shows off how competitive tournament based gaming can be implemented on
the Playstation 3.

I tell you, that's the game we all waiting for! A tournament based Wipeout will
form a strong userbase for many years to come.

@SL: Make this game a reality, please! I would even take part in its creation.
Where do I have to sign?


@ONlock: Welcome to the WipeoutZone.

[Mu5]

@El : Great points mate, I would love to see some of those implemented :+

I would *love* to see custom skins in the next implementation of WipEout on PS3 - that would rock :D

[ProblemSolver]

... Weapon Pads: ...What should be done is making the weapons pads respawn more quickly.

An example of what aggravates the competition at the most frustrating point is being stuck between 2 guys, the first grabbing the pick-up so you're left with nothing, and having the one following you pick the respawn. So there you go, you have the possibility of having Mines/Bombs dropped in your face and all the remaining shooting weapons being shoved up your ass. ...
I've thought off a pretty simple solution to this problem; let a weapon / item
pad turn into a speed pad until the item pad becomes activated again.

Being in front while racing over an item pad will tricker it into a speed pad for a
short period of time for everyone close behind. So the one in front gets an item
and the one behind a speed pad closing in even further. That way the one
behind can catch-up and might be even in a better position for victory -- like
in Indycar Racing. Just imagine Sol 2 last corner. One would get two speed pads
in a row if the one in front runs over the given item pad.

Hence, within the respawn time frame the one in front is at a slight
disadvantage if most items aren't usable, since he will pull the one behind
even closer. The fight for the lead would be much more intense.

[eLhabib]

great idea that! :+

[Frances_Penfold]

IMO the lack of hard-core competition in Wipeout has nothing to do with barrel rolls or online features or broken weapons pads. There are lots of old, simple, practically broken games that are very popular in tournaments and speed run competitions.

IMO the problem is general disinterest in futuristic racers among the current gamer generation, especially in North America and Japan. Competition is about as keen in Wipeout as would be expected from its sales base :)

[Lance]

I've thought off a pretty simple solution to this problem; let a weapon / item
pad turn into a speed pad until the item pad becomes activated again.

I do believe that's my favourite idea of all that you've presented. It would provide a considerable extension of tactics since the leader can use a weapon on a follower who passes him with the speed boost, or absorb energy into the shield. An additional idea is to bring back hyper thrust as a modest brief boost using the absorbed energy as a further extension of tactical possibilities, so the leader might use it to try to stay barely ahead of the boosted follower, or simply allow himself to be passed, then use the weapon to attack the new leader.

Oh, yeah, before I forget: eliminate BRs. :g

[kanar]

Oh, yeah, before I forget: eliminate BRs. :g

True, they require too much skill & practice, please eliminate them, so we could have a burnout stuff with speed pads :g

Lance I respect your opinion, but please don't bring back again this -explosive- subject; respect the 50% -at least- of the community who's seeing BRs as a GREAT evolution in the wipeout series. It has been discussed (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4609&highlight=barrel+roll) before (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6439&highlight=barrel+roll) (two examples) don't you think? If it was just a joke, then accept my apologies.

[ProblemSolver]

As simple as this idea seems to be, it took me quite some time. One has to
consider a lot of cases where the given idea may break. So I iterated many
cases including what would happen within the field. As of now I haven't found
any contradiction that would rendering this idea useless, which isn't to say
that there isn't one. What I've found out is that the one in the lead will
almost always have a slight disadvantage in terms of being forced to make the
right decision. So you get the item and you must instantly decide what to do
next since the one behind closes in. Even further, the one behind can't go
wrong at all! Hence, the burden is on the one being in the lead. But. The
situation will change once the one behind takes the lead. Yeah, that would add
a nice tactical element to the game -- kinda of a mini-fight that only starts
to happen while racing within the respawn timeframe. I'm not sure about the
hyper trust, since the one behind may miss the trickered item pad given the
leader an even bigger advantage as of now. If anything the (brief) hyper trust
may only be available until the item pad in question gets activated again. That
might work.

Oh, yeah, before I forget: BRs are the shiit. :g

[kanar]

Oh, yeah, before I forget: BRs are the shiit. :g

You should write a novel -sorry I meant a post- based on this great affirmation. Don't grab popcorn, I'm smarter than that.

[ACE-FLO]

Problem Solver - lives up to his name! The idea for replacing weps pads after a pick up with a brief speed pad boost is just in the true nature and spirit of keeping the comptition tight, and I can commend that! Top marks to you mate, SL should take notice of this! BIG TIME!!! I'm fed up of being a bomb/mine sandwich in races!!! :D :lol

[leungbok]

True, they require too much skill & practice, please eliminate them, so we could have a burnout stuff with speed pads :g
It's possible to BR in burnout, no ?

BRs are just a weapon in the arsenal of quickness. Lines always rules !!
BR with awfull lines < good lines
BR with good lines = best lines
BR with good lines > good lines
BR with best lines = win :D

As real fans can't we just accept the game as it is and don't always ask for stuff that will help our own interests ?
Off course, bugs and glitchs have nothing to do with the "game as it is" ;)

[ProblemSolver]

...
IMO the problem is general disinterest in futuristic racers among the current gamer generation, especially in North America and Japan. Competition is about as keen in Wipeout as would be expected from its sales base :)
Might be true, but this can be changed. A tournament system will draw more
people to the game since it's quite challenging and also a lot of fun
participating in a tournament.

Let me give an example; Metal Gear Online (MGO) hasn't a superior userbase as
well, but their tournament system makes people quite sticky. For example, Konami
has scheduled what is called a Survival and a Tournament each week. One has to
register ahead of time to participate. Within Survival you can incrementally
earn reward points by beating other teams. Five wins in a row gives the highest
reward points for each player in the winning team. Survival can be played
multiple times on a scheduled date. A tournament is like Survival but you get
only one try on that given day. Winning the tournament offers items (like a
special beret or similar things) which can't be bought off from the in-game
reward shop. Having something similar in WipEout HD would definitely draw more
people to the game, for sure.

A lot of things can be done having a tournament system in place. There could
even be qualification tournaments that enable one to enter another tournament,
for example, a big one at the end of the month offering a special item. Just
imagine.... The possibilities are infinite. A tournament system will bring
wipers together like never before.


@ACE-FLO: :D If I had WipEout HD's source code (+ a PS3 developer station)
I would test it out immediately. :nod

However, I would advice anyone interested in rethinking what I've written to
check whether there is an instance where this idea may break. It wouldn't be
that much fun having this idea implemented to find out that it actually may
lead to some inconsistencies. The developers will test it on their own, for sure,
but you never know. ;) Hence, confirmation from a bunch of pros over here
would be quite helpful in getting this idea implemented.

[kaori]

It's really easy to do big online tournaments in WipEout, if they want, devs will be able to implement that.

Eg, a big tournament this sunday. From 2.50 to 3.00 pm, people who want participate join the server.
3.00 pm, all players are separated in n group, n is a power of two.
At end of the first race, or first tournament, 4 firsts of a group join 4 firsts of an other group. 4 lasts of a group join 4 lasts of an other group... multiplied by the required number.
And after some races, some tournaments, some Eliminator or Zone battle, you have a final group, and lot of others groups who can play a last race/tournament/Eliminator/ZB in order to determinate their final ranking in the big tournament of the day/week/month.

So if a guy like me is able to imagine that, the devs are surely as competent as me, even more.

But is it useful ?
When I see ton of quitters who disconnect when they are last, I don't want more noobs like them online !

Even a few guys here have deserted WWC just before the final...
Today, wipers seems to be in an extinction way...

[ProblemSolver]

@kaori: Setting up a tourney isn't a problem, right. But having the right
infrastructure in place takes some time. And I don't wanna see
tournament-based gaming on WipEout HD just as an update or something
like that. I think this should be the focus for a new Wipeout game that
incorporates all the good stuff from WipEout HD.

Quitters? That shouldn't be a problem at all. There are multiple ways to handle
quitters. For example, in GT5P you can't even quit the race, and in MGO your
experience degrades upon quitting a running game some minutes before it ends.

[kaori]

I'm not a dev, but...
Random function for first round.
Binary function for all next rounds.

[Lance]

True, they require too much skill & practice, please eliminate them, so we could have a burnout stuff with speed pads :g

Lance I respect your opinion, but please don't bring back again this -explosive- subject; respect the 50% -at least- of the community who's seeing BRs as a GREAT evolution in the wipeout series. It has been discussed (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4609&highlight=barrel+roll) before (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6439&highlight=barrel+roll) (two examples) don't you think? If it was just a joke, then accept my apologies.

I would have thought the Green Grin emoticon was sufficient to indicate its jokiness.

[kanar]

Then as I said, please accept my apologies.

Oh, yeah, before I forget: BRs are the shiit.
Seems like someone quickly stepped into the breach, unless it was just for fun too.

[ProblemSolver]

"BRs are the shiit." should be read as BRs are awesome. :nod

[ACE-FLO]

I prefer, "BRs' are the SCHITT" - :rock

[kanar]

"BRs are the shiit." should be read as BRs are awesome. :nod


OMG. Seriously I deserve a ban. I really need a break lol. Please you too accept my apologies for my 4th misunderstanding of these past few days. Am I stressed? Seems like I am.

[ProblemSolver]

Sorry, my faut. Should have written; BRs are teh shiit. Pretty obvious now. :+

[ProblemSolver]

I've revisited my own idea. After about checking / racing each track multiple
times under the assumption that an item pad will turns into a speed pad
during the respawn time-frame, now called pad-switching, it appears to me that
this idea really works out and would change WipEout HD for the better. Why does
it work? Well, the whole thing can be compared to Indycar and / or NASCAR racing
where riding within the wake of another car makes all of the difference. The
given idea is kinda of an WipEoutenized version of a slipstream with a twist.
So the whole thing works like a slipstream as long as the one in front runs over
an item pad and the one behind (in close proximity) runs over the toggled
speed pad.

Why does it change WipEout HD for the better? I will list some points and
give some explanations thereafter;

(a) weapons on races become fair
(b) tactical enhancement
(c) starting position not important anymore
(d) the field stays closer together
(e) playing catch-up is more rewarding
(f) lessens the problem of being sandwiched
(g) more fun, more competition, more exciting! :sonar

Note: Pad-switching is only active during an item pads respawn time-frame.

Point (a):
Being in the lead is almost always too big of an advantage since one can grab
all the items leaving nothing behind (with the exception of bombs and mines)
for those racing within the item pads respawn time-frame. Assuming competitive
racing, there is virtually no chance in catching the one in front without
pad-switching. One is faced to dodge bombs and mines until failure.
Pad-switching won't (and should not) change that, but it will give one a
compensation for each item pad taken away within the respawn time-frame. An
item pad is almost always consider much more valuable than a speed pad.
Hence, offering a little speed boost is fair enough.

Point (b):
Some tracks do have an item pad near the finish line that can make all of the
difference if pad-switching is enabled, like for example on VK (R), AP, Moa,
CP (R), MT, Ü (+R), S2, TJ, AMP (+R), MH, and TR. Imagine being close to your
opponent near the finish line just before the item pad in question. If the
leader takes the item pad you will get a speed pad which may lead to your
victory if the item wasn't any useful. If the leader neglects the item pad to
prevent the switch, it will offer you an item which may likewise lead to your
victory. Hence, staying behind isn't necessarily a disadvantages. Ahh ... and
what about additional BRs due to pad-switching? :)

Point (c):
Currently, being in the back of the starting grid will give one an immediate
disadvantage for no reason. Not so with pad-switching, since someone in front
will likely tricker the first item pad into a speed pad which then offers a little
speed boost for a brief moment that will pull the pack forward.

Point (d):
Pretty obvious.

Point (e):
Finding oneself in 'last' position after being bombed, mined, etc. isn't the
'end' of the race when pad-switching is enabled, since one can catch-up by
passing contenders out of their pad wake.

Point (f):
Doesn't it suck to be bombed from ahead and getting shot from behind while
getting nothing at all? Not any longer. One would get at least a speed pad as
long as the one in front runs over an item pad.

Point (g):
If the 'lead' changes multiple times during a races / lap, it can't get any better. :+

I also thought about whether it's worth to extend or shorten the item pads
respawn time-frame or not, but I think it's perfect the way it is. And I also
checked whether the placement of the item pads may produces some unwanted
behavior when toggled into a speed pad. There are no issues. Only a minor
thing may catch you by surprise. I've found two cases that may kick you out of
the track if you don't watch out for it. Just consider the third item pad on
Sol2 Reverse and the first two item pads (next to each other) on the Amphiseum.

Due to point (d) it would be wise to slightly lower the damage taken while
being rammed by an opponent.

Sounds good? If yes, then I will point one of the SL guys over here such that
they may consider it worth implementing. What you think?

[SaturnReturn]

It's not a bad idea, but I do think it is over-simplified and overly optimistic the way you've put it. I'll explain why I think this a bit later, as it will take a while to think about and explain properly.

[ProblemSolver]

Some things are over-simplified, for sure. For example, I wrote; "Assuming
competitive racing, there is virtually no chance in catching the one in front
without pad-switching.", which shouldn't be taken too seriously. Most of the
things should just give an idea about what its is all about. Pad-switching can
be quite dynamic to cover each instances. Unfortunately, we can't try it out.

Edit: The best thing to understand pad-switching is to race on some tracks
having the idea in mind.

[franman]

In addition to the author's question can Wipeout online be taken as serious competition?

I'm from the Soul Calibur community and like other fighting games, online shouldn't be taken as serious competition because lag affects frames and frames are important.

What about this game? Does the lag affect the competition for Wipeout?

[SaturnReturn]

OK, here goes. I only read that last post in detail PS, so forgive me if I miss anything from the earlier posts.

In my opinion, races are very random. Weapons are overpowered, and there are too many of them on the track at the same time. This occurs far more frequently when pilots of a similar skill level come together. It causes the problems that you mentioned, such as getting sandwiched, and getting mines and bombs from the guy in front all the time. The thing is, I don't see how this pad switching changes that, or improves the situation in any way.

If the person in front of me goes over a weapons pad (WP), they get a weapon. If the guy behind goes over a WP, he'll probably get a weapon too. Timing will probably mean that I get a small speed boost from what is now a speed pad (SP). How does this really help me? I'm still a sitting duck. I can still get a bomb in my face and a missile up my rear end just the same. The fact that I just gained a small increase in speed won't matter to me at all when I'm helplessly drifting across the track getting rammed by everyone who was behind.

Also, let's say that I did manage to go over a succession of theses switched SPs and catch up a little. It doesn't make it any easier to overtake the person on front. I've been in enough Avalon races to know that overtaking in these situations is very difficult. On numerous occasion I've been knocked back and caught up, only to be knocked back again as soon as I try to overtake. This is due to the game physics and effects of ramming. As you rightly say, there would be benefit to reducing the amount of shield damage that occurs due to ship contact. But there are far greater issues to be dealt with which must make it easier for a faster pilots to overtake without ending up facing in the wrong direction or being bumped into a wall and going completely offline.

In fact, I feel this would also reduce any tactical element that currently exists in weapons races. Generally, there is a SP next to each WP. This means that you can make the choice between the two. This is a tactical decision. If you were to turn that WP into a SP, then this decision no longer exists, thus removing any tactics from choice of racing line and SP vs. WP. There would only be one line for everyone to take. This is generally the case currently, actually, as SPs don't make enough of a difference. The balance is far in favour of a weapons based game. For me, a solution would involve emphasis of this choice, i.e. by gaining a greater boost from the SP. This is, for me, probably the only way to emphasise a different between speed and weapons as a tactical approach.

In short, I don't see that the pad switching really offers anything other than a minor consolation prize, but with the result of a complete loss of any tactical decision, as mentioned above.

I think there are other options which would offer a more competitive game. These revolve around reducing the random nature of a game which is so heavily weapons oriented, as mentioned by the ONLock. I'm not saying the weapons make it entirely random. But I do think that they lead to less distinction between people of different skill levels. I think that there are the very good players who can do almost every BR and shortcut in a race. These are the guys that will nearly always win. Then in the middle, there are those that can do some of the BRs and some of the shortcuts. These people really don't have much of an edge, IMO, compared to those who only do the simplest barrel rolls and rarely take shortcuts, but drop every set of mines or every bomb they come across.

To achieve a more balanced game and emphasizes different tactics and ways to be competitive, I think the next incarnation could consider the following:


Make SPs more beneficial so that a SP orientated race becomes as effective for winning as a WP orientated race
Create a delay between using, picking up or absorbing a weapon, so that players can't grab every weapons pad in succession
Prevent use of WPs for the first lap so that the field is slightly further apart at the end of lap one. Perhaps turn the WPs off, turn them into SPs, or leave them on but make them unusable for the first lap. The last option would also mean that players must make the tactical decision of which weapon they keep for the start of the second lap. Use some measure to ensure that everyone has a weapon if they choose to pick one up. If they choose not to, but hit every single SP, they should have gained a bit of a lead over someone who went over all weapons pads in the hope of getting a quake. This method also has problems though. A player could get a boost and then hit every SP after that, meaning that they might be at the front and also be able to pull away immediately. But it’s just one of many options. I think just turning on ghosting and turning weapons off altogether for one lap would lead to less carnage, less frustration and a greater advantage for a better racer, this slightly reducing overall impact of weapons.
Perhaps instead of switching the WP, you switch the SP next to it temporarily so that it gives you a greater boost while the WP is inactive, thus again emphasizing a tactical approach to taking the SP line instead.
Make SPs charge shields instead of WPs. At the moment the guy in first gets it all. He gets all the weapons choices, he gets more boosts (often, just because he gets more weapons in general, not because the game favours the guy in first or anything like that), he can absorb more and do more barrel rolls. Why not take some of that advantage away from the person in first, rather than trying to make up the disadvantage of the person in second? If you want weapons, have them, but you won’t be able to charge shields up as much. This would force someone in first to go over the SPs sometimes to charge their shields from doing BRs, thus automatically leaving some WPs active. If he does no BRs at all, he automatically has less of an advantage in that way.
Just straight up reduce damage across the board.


I think that's all I have for now. Sorry it's so long. I hope it doesn't bore anyone. I haven't had time to check it as my dinner's on the table, so (@yeldar) please don't go pointing out all the little typos etc. :P Might be a bit repetitive in places too...soz.

[ProblemSolver]

Thank for the reply. :+

There are many ways to improve WipEout HD. But most of the things you've
mentioned to balance the game would turn it into a strategy game and they
sound a bit like fixing an initially broken concept. I think one of the good
principles of Wipeout is to keep everything as simple and clean as possible
to not unnecessarily complicate the game. Don't get me wrong, your ideas are
quite good but there a too many variables involved. Speaking about an SP versus
an WP orientated race, the edge should always be given to WP orientated racing
for obvious reasons. A 'weapons on' race should primarily be won by clever use
of all the weapons. For example, Vartazian might not be teh fastest wiper when
it comes to pure SP racing, but give him any weapon and one's SP racing line is
history no matter what, which brings me to my next point.


... Generally, there is a SP next to each WP. This means that you can make the choice between the two. This is a tactical decision. If you were to turn that WP into a SP, then this decision no longer exists, thus removing any tactics from choice of racing line and SP vs. WP. There would only be one line for everyone to take. This is generally the case currently, actually, as SPs don't make enough of a difference. The balance is far in favour of a weapons based game. ...

First off, WPs are the primary pads in an 'weapons on' race and SPs are
secondary. This is an intended design decision. So there is no question which
pad to go for in an 'weapons on' race most of the time. SPs can be used for
whatever fits best in the current situation, but WPs do have (and always should
have) the primary focus in an 'weapons on' race -- by definition. Secondly, with
respect to the quote above, I'm not quite sure whether you've understood what
I mean with pad-switching. You wrote that the tactical decision does no longer
exists, but this isn't true. Everything I wrote about pad-swichting happens
within that one second while a given WP turns off. Under pad-swichting the given
WP will turn into a SP for just about one second. So if you are more than one
second behind everything is just like before, you won't even recognize it.

The main problem pad-switching is going to solve is to give the one flying
right behind -- within that one second -- something in return for the weapon
the other on got. The speed boost isn't that large, but it can make a
difference. Secondly, from a design point of view, it makes no sense to fly over
an deactivated WP. It isn't any fun. Its deactivation might just be the reason
to prevent World War III on any track. You may now argue; then why not flying
over the SP right next to it? Ok, imagine we are in a heated battle at phantom
speed racing close behind each other on a quite bendy part of a track not more
than one second apart. Under these circumstances it isn't always possible to
adjust the racing line to hit the SP right next to it, if there is even one. For
example, I raced against someone at Modesto not getting any WP for a full lap
while staying within that one second time-frame dodging a bomb and some mines.

Further, pad-switching should not solve the problem of being sandwiched, that is
just an inherent part of the game, but it can lessen it to some extend since the
small boost might be enough to cut around a corner while being shot from behind.

Granted, weapons are overpowered, collision sucks, and overtaking might be
difficult at times, but these are things unrelated to pad-switching.

Well, let's put pad-switching aside for a moment. Why isn't there any wake
behind a craft that will 'pull' my craft forward more easily while riding close
behind? I never knew that ag-racing happens in a vacuum. ;) Do I want
aerodynamic effects to be implemented into the game? No, not necessarily.
Personally, I like the twist pad-switching offers. It's pretty simple, easy
to implement, and will offer quite a lot without cutting WipEout HD into pieces.

More criticisms or criticisms^{-1} are very welcome. :nod

[SaturnReturn]

I think I did understand what you mean about pad-switching. The reason I don't think it makes any difference tactically, is that a pilot can just take a route around the track that would let them hit all the WPs. If there's no active WP, then they get a SP. But I personally think it's better that the pilot has to make a conscious decision as to whether they go for the WP or SP. If there's a pilot in front of me, then isn't it a bit naive of me to take the same line over all the WPs? It's not hard to predict that, if I don't get one WP while I am close behind, then I'm not likely to get any of the others. Shouldn't I adjust my approach so that I aim for speed pads, perhaps picking up rockets or a missile where there are two WPs available, and then using them to maximum effect when I've caught up? To me, this is what I feel the game should have been designed for, and given the setup of WPs and SPs on most tracks, i.e. next to each other, or near each other, but on different lines, I would have thought it was what the designers had in mind too. I also think the main reason this doesn't work, is a poor balance in the favour of weapons. Ultimately, this all comes down to what I feel the game should be. I don't personally like that the game is so weapons oriented. I feel that, even in a weapons race, the weapons should only really be giving a person an edge, and that racing should still be the main focus, especially if the game is to be taken more seriously. Indeed, I think a lot of people have similar thoughts, and some even go so far as to consider weapons a gimmick, even in the earlier WO games.

I don't think many of my suggestions would turn this into a strategy game though. The only one that might is where players keep a weapon for the start of lap two. I started to out a lot of emphasis on tactics, mainly because you suggested your version of pad-switching would offer tactical enhancement, whereas I feel it would do the opposite. Also, the thread is about WipEout being competitive. For me, being competitive means wanting to improve so that you can compete with the best. This is another reason why I would like less emphasis on weapons. At the moment there's not a lot that encourages people to be better racers once they reach a certain level, which isn't good for a competitive future.

In terms of these suggestions sounding like an initially broken concept, this may be so. But aren't we both approaching this from that POV? If your version of pad-switching is to have the list of benefits that you state, such as making the game fairer, reducing the impact of starting first, reducing sandwiching, then doesn't that mean you think they are problems with the game that should be remedied? Or maybe you meant the concept of speed vs. weapons that I was talking about, compared to the concept of a weapons orientated game, in which case I can see where you're coming from.

As for players who are 'good' with weapons - it's really not that hard to use weapons effectively in this game. Drop every set of mines and bombs you pick up. Try to drop them in narrow sections. If someone is close behind then save them a few seconds in case they launch a missile at you. Blast rockets at someone when you're close to do the most damage, or even when lag causes your ships to stick together. It's really not too hard. There are indeed people who are very good with weapons though. For me, chaos80 would be my pick for best weapons user. He always seemed to be able to pick targets off from a great distance with rockets. I seem to remember he's always been very handy with a plasma too (possibly the only weapons which takes significant skill). The guy has great aim. That's not to say Vartazian isn't good with weapons, and actually I think he is fast in weapons off races and TTs too. Just thought I'd give a shout out to someone else who I think deserves it. ;)


What about this game? Does the lag affect the competition for Wipeout?

In my opinion it does. It tends to be when players are close together and 'ramming' occurs. This causes a large reduction in shield - too large, which in turn emphasises the impact of weapons and leads to excessively frequent elimination at times. For me this is the main negative impact, which there must surely be a remedy for. I think it causes a lot of frustration. When considering tournament formats, I'm always trying to think of ways to reduced this impact, which usually equates to team games, or games with fewer players, where less weapons should be flying about.

[amplificated]

The weapons system is entirely unfair. Even if every person was given the same weapon, they all still vary in their usefulness depending on your position. And if every pickup you received was the most useful for you in your position, it counters the effect they have in the first place. So we're left with random weapons, where one player might get everything they need and another player gets cannons and autopilots for the whole track.

A truly competitive racing game can't have weapons, they aren't FPS's where everything you have is deadly all the time as long as you know how to use it, some pickups are genuinely a heck of a lot more useful than others, depending on where you are in comparison to your opponents, and some are just more useful, full stop.

A truly competitive racing game has to be based on skill, so if you're going to give the player a choice, I think it should be between a guaranteed speed boost by using pads, or go over a weapon pad to get a token to do a couple of BR's instead (WP's aren't that common, but BR's can be). Maybe lower the shield as well so you have to absorb after every second or third BR.

Weapons can't work, even though they're at the core of Wipeout; if you want to make it truly competitive. I think a fair part of the game would have to be redesigned as a result. I know some tracks have just one, or even zero BR's, but like I said, the game would have to be redesigned to make it work.

[ProblemSolver]

... That's not to say Vartazian isn't good with weapons, and actually I think he is fast in weapons off races and TTs too. ...
I think that as well, I wrote; "... Vartazian might not be teh fastest wiper
when it comes to pure SP racing, but give him any weapon and one's SP racing
line is history no matter what...", so he can still be the second or even the
fastest man on the whole planet having a very good weapon usage. Anyway, my
indention was just to show that an SP oriented race is pretty useless when
weapons are on unless one starts to tweak the game. To tweak? Making an SP
orientated 'weapons on' race as beneficial as an WP orientated one, like you
have suggested, would somehow break the core assumption of an 'weapons on' race.
Like I told you, the points you were given do already have too many variables.
It may happen that people discover that WP aren't any useful anymore or similar
things. And checking all the boundary cases might just be impossible for the
developers and testers. Well, the power of Wipeout lies within its simplicity.
And gaining simplicity is a much more difficult task than creating a complex
system in the first place.



... In terms of these suggestions sounding like an initially broken concept, this may be so. But aren't we both approaching this from that POV? If your version of pad-switching is to have the list of benefits that you state,...? ..."
For me Wipeout's concept is pretty clean and pad-switching would just be an
enhancement that doesn't require to change any given rule! The game is like
before and only within -- that one second -- the action kicks in. The benefits
of reducing the impact of starting first, reducing sandwiching, and others are
just accidental. About fairness; 'Weapon on' races are a bit unfair because
weapons are overpowered, like we all know. Reducing their impact would already
make the game fairer. But once you really think about pad-switching you will
discover that pad-switching is quite independent from all of this, it's much
more universal. I would even like to see that feature implemented if 'weapons
on' races are 100% fair and all the other issues like collision, etc. would
have been resolved.

Let's consider the aerodynamics example again with respect to pad-switching. How
can riding in a wake not be any tactical? It lies at the core of many race car
series. You will become more competitive once you know how and when to used it.
Stated otherwise; Instead of pad-switching I could equally vote for (more or
less) to have aerodynamic effects been implemented within the game. These
effects would be rather independent to whether the game is fair or not. It's
just a physical thing one has to deal with. Pad-switching would just be a
WipEoutenized version of wake with a twist that really fits into its concept.
So then why not implementing aerodynamic effects and skip pad-switching
altogether? Well, you can even have pad-switching with aerodynamic effects
enabled.


... If there's a pilot in front of me, then isn't it a bit naive of me to take the same line over all the WPs? It's not hard to predict that, if I don't get one WP while I am close behind, then I'm not likely to get any of the others. ...

It depends. You know that racing can be quite involved. For example, the
distance to your opponent in front can change suddenly for whatever reasons.
Going for a SP right next to an deactivated WP all the time isn't the best way.
Sometimes you can predict the next move rightfully, but this isn't always the
case and even not if there are many opponents in front of you. An opponent may
also fail to hit a WP at all and there is not always an SP right next to an WP.
Let's say we put WPs that have an useful SP 'right next to it', and (single)
WPs that don't have any, into a set by going over all the tracks. I would
say that more than half of the WPs within said set don't have a SP to 'back it
up'.

But let me give another example about the racing line with respect to
pad-switching while riding close behind an opponent. One may already try to go
for a slightly different line just to prevent running into a bomb, mines, etc.
that the one in front may suddenly drop while running over the WP. Right? But
wouldn't a good player catch you by dropping the bomb in the line of the SP
right next to it? Isn't it a bit naive to go over the SP all the time? I now
first hand that even advanced players can be caught that way. So there is no
guaranty that the line that is crossing the SP is any better. You may even be
more safe riding over the deactivated WP much more often. But now lets kick in
pad-switching. With pad-switching the given WP in question becomes a SP for just
a second. You essentially now have two racing lines to choose from! You can make
a decision which SP to take with respect to the guy riding in front of you and
with what gives the better racing line. If this doesn't help you, then I don't
know what to say.

And this is only one example. According to my idea, pad-switching does also
work on WP that don't have a SP right next to it. Imagine the one in front runs
over such an WP and grabs a bomb. Since (s)he knows that you will possibly ride
over the now toggled SP you may become a sitting duck ... and boom! Hence, the
one in front has to think and the one riding behind has to think as well about
the next right move. How can't this be any tactical nor competitive? One has to
read its opponent to make the right decision. If you look at it, pad-switching
can be quite dynamic. It's pretty interesting what a variety it can create
without changing any rules at all.

[SaturnReturn]

The tactics you are referring to really come down to a choice you make when trying to predict your opponents' decisions. For me, this isn't tactical. This is a series of largely independent guesses, rather than a tactical approach to the game. Ultimately, a good player will adjust their approach based on what's happening at the time. This represents the different tiers at which tactics are applied. But the choice of whether you go left or right, based on what the player in front already exists in the game, so in my opinion, pad-switching offers little to no enhancement in this sense. If I head for the WP, I might get a weapon. If I don't, I get a SP. What the player ahead does is completely unknown, and I don't think that the likelihood of me getting a bomb or mines in the face is any more or less likely at the time I make that decision. Someone who uses these to the most effect is probably likely to drop them in places where they are unavoidable anyway. So for me, tactics would boil down to a bigger overall approach to the race than just the split second decisions. If the effect of SPs were increased such that it actually helped me to catch up and overtake, and reduced dependency on weapons, then I think this would have benefits, as I mentioned earlier. Is it likely to lead to a game where people give up on the weapons and only go for SPs. There is a risk of this. But how likely is it? If a player took a SP approach and was very close with another player, they would only have to be hit with one weapon to make a difference. Even with the risk of the weapons becoming obsolete, I think this would only happen if the balance were too much in favour of SPs. A solely speed based approach need not be as effective as a weapons approach. Adjust my previous wording slightly to be almost as effective as weapons, or just more effective than it currently is, and it would, in my opinion, restore some balance. Games would be less random, weapons would give an edge etc etc, as already mentioned.

I think I'm just repeating myself now though, so I'll stop there. It seems like we are arguing the same points based on wanting a different approach to the game as a whole. I think when you talk about weapons on races you focus on the 'weapons on' part and I focus on the 'races'. As a means to achieving what I want the game to be, I don't think pad-switching would do much. But as a means to achieving what you want the game to be, perhaps it does just that. As it's your idea, for me to continue to find problems with it on the basis that it wouldn't do what I'd like it to in terms of a more competitive incarnation for the next game, would probably only be derisive.