Implement the return of "dead is dead" rule.

[kaori]

I ask you if you are for or against a new option in the race online.

The "dead is dead" rule. Like in WipEout Pulse, a contender eliminated can't respawn, he scores 0 point.

I remember Paul Tweedle told us we could hope this option in a future update of the game.

Big advantage : a contender eliminated could look some adverts since others finish their race !

[Rapier Racer]

I voted for option 1, because personally I feel that is the way it should be. Realistically I don't think it ever will be like that again at least not online so option 2 sounds more likely.

[leungbok]

lol, yeah cool idea ! I voted choice 2 however, it depends of the adds in fact :lol

[mizunoori]

I took option 1.

But i would shout at my TV when I got destroyed because of a lapped bomb haha :+

[SaturnReturn]

I voted 2. But I would only consider using the option if lag effects were lower and weapons a little less powerful. As it is you can sometimes be eliminated on the first lap even without a single weapon hit. That wouldn't be much fun. :(

[mic-dk]

I'm the loner that wants respawn. As long as the weapons and collision damage do that much damage, I really don't want my race to be over on lap 1.

Edit: I now actually read Saturns reply. I agree with the reasoning, only I don't want to give anybody the choice :)

[phaeton_pl]

I voted 2, it sounds fair.

I agree with Saturn that damages caused by weapons should be smaller. Damages caused by coliding with other ship should be 10x smaller.
Also "pushing off the track" by other ship should be exclusive for eliminator mode.

[crawdad62]

I voted 2. Sometimes there's so much collateral damage being inflicted that I'd hate to sit out a whole race because of fatal damage right off the starting line. But it would be good if you could get in a room with a bunch of people you know that don't fly everywhere haphazardly then it would be good. Or at the very least have ship to ship contact not count against your health.

[Dark_Phantom_89]

Great idea - I voted for 2. Hopefully we'll see this implemented in the near future

[Amorbis]

I originally thought that respawning would be a bad idea in WipEout, but with all the chaos it is almost necessary. That isn't to say it would be a bad thing, though. The few days that the game had a strange glitch I did infact enjoy getting eliminated for real. It would be good to be able to have all the old options for a bit more variety, we already have no barrel rolls so why not permanent elimination? So I voted 2.

[Koleax]

Since the only rule now is respawn, they can't really put the toothpaste back in the tube, so option 2 is the most realistic.

When I think about it, though, "dead is dead" should be the only option, because death as a concept is not only final, but unavoidable in the sense that it is always present as a possibility to anything that lives. To be able to turn it off and on like a switch, I think that takes something away from it.

[il_mago_di_Doz]

I voted 2, but I think that Weapons should be a little less powerfull in that case. And last but not least.... Give me better hints about mines and bombs: half of the times the hints don't work. :pirate

[yeldar2097]

For the moment I'm with 3

As it stands according to my stats my K/D ratio is 1:4
coincidentally I am elim'd one in every 4 races which I reckon is actually quite a lot, not sure though.

I can also imagine getting REALLY REALLY angry when elim'd if I knew I wasn't coming back...moreso than I already do :lol

I'm not against the idea at all, but I think the weps may need some tweaking.

...if it were implemented: imagine getting eliminated by a lapped bomb from the guy in 2nd place or even by a lapped racer :P

:bomb --> broken controller x 4

:g

[Vartazian]

It would make me killing people actually worth something.

[Rapier Racer]

Exactly, just like back in the Pure days.....*wonders off into a daydream*

It's not as satisfying anymore putting in the effort to knock someone off, used to be a great thrill.

[billychanxtr33m]

no respawn would probably lead to a whole new level of griefing, i think respawn is for the better and keeps things fast and involved

[crawdad62]

keeps things fast and involved

Yeah you're probably right there. Can't imagine it would be very popular across the board (even though I'd still like the option) since it's hard sometimes to even find a room that doesn't have PA on.

[Connavar]

This would be nice indeed, just like offline. You die = you're out, go back to bed.

[Task]

Lonely Rule!
8 D

[Koleax]

...if it were implemented: imagine getting eliminated by a lapped bomb from the guy in 2nd place or even by a lapped racer :P
That's sort of the point. It brings in another dimension of skill, allowing someone who's not even a skilled racer to beat someone who is by surviving the dangerous environment.

There were no eliminations at all in the original Wipeout, though. I wonder how many would prefer that?

[karsten_beoulve]

i voted 2.

Actually in the first days i played i thought that the respawning was a bug, and for some time i think that death was final... the only thing they have to take care off is "grinding" damage with other ships or during auto pilot...

[Constrictor]

Voted 2: Would be interesting to see the acceptance of such a feature. Esp. in races w/ 3 to 5 players where you have a little more room to really race. Like, should I pass now or is the risk too high?

As mentioned before: New skills will be required. I second that.

In 8 player races (equally skilled pilots) this would be annoying - racing is not an option within the first laps. There are races where I'm not able to make it to the first corner w/o getting shot to pieces. And no respwan ... No!

[yeldar2097]

That's sort of the point. It brings in another dimension of skill, allowing someone who's not even a skilled racer to beat someone who is by surviving the dangerous environment.

Hmm...doesn't really sound like my cup of tea but I'm not really a purist (:P) so....

I'm not sure getting fooked over by some tosser who's parked on the track/driving backwards would work for me. For me WO is a racing game, not a shmup.

I suppose with option 2 I would have the choice :g

[AG-wolf]

Yes, but fix the damage physics so it's not quite so easy to be raped from every angle in the first lap.

I can't count how many times I have been on the receiving end of and "unfortunate series of events" and died in the first half of the second lap simply because my shield was pegged to 15% out of nowhere, and everyone in front of me keeps deactivating the weapons pads so I can't replenish my shield. it doesn't come down to bad piloting, and it doesn't come down to me whining- I have genuinely disliked the energy-replenish model in multiplayer races ever since Pure established it; having a pit lane is a much more practical solution to the problem. Before "dead is dead" would ever be implemented, they need to tweak quite how much collision damage your ship receives from other ships bumping you and light wall contact.

[JFthebestJan]

i like the idea of dead is dead, but voted for option 2, cause think of eliminator-races with that feature enabled. in most cases everything would be decided after the 1st lap.

[Golgofier]

Yes! I want it (but adjust the damage rules first)

[Xavier]

No respawning -- I know this is two centuries in the future, but even the most sophisticated wuss-wagon just can't repair a damaged ship that quickly.

And with that, I'd like to see much less damage to the ships while on the course. You should have to drive really recklessly to take so much damage that your ship gets destroyed.

[Koleax]

I'm not sure getting fooked over by some tosser who's parked on the track/driving backwards would work for me. For me WO is a racing game, not a shmup.
You prefer no-weapons racing too, don't you? If "dead is dead" were the only rule, would turning weapons off be a sufficient alternative to respawn?

For me it's a hybrid racing/shmup, with side modes that emphasize one element over the other (Detonator, Eliminator, and Zone Battle on one side, then Time Trial, Speed Lap, and Zone on the other).


i like the idea of dead is dead, but voted for option 2, cause think of eliminator-races with that feature enabled. in most cases everything would be decided after the 1st lap.

I'm not sure everyone else was considering this in the context of Eliminator, just giving online single races and tournaments the same rules as offline.

It would make Zone Battle more interesting, though. When I race ZB against others who aren't as practiced, I start slacking because I know I can easily make up the elimination after taking out a barrier. It'd be more exciting to be at Zone 54 and yet feel one mistake away from losing to someone who's still at Zone 15.

[crawdad62]

I never thought about it as a component of Eliminator. It wouldn't really work as it is now. I mean you could potentially have a Eliminator race where everyone was eliminated and the remaining racer wouldn't be able to reach the points goal. However you could have it basically as a "last man standing" deal. No points goal just blast away until there's only one left.

[kaori]

No crawdad, this rule is for races. In a tournament, when you explose, you stop the race and score 0 point.

[crawdad62]

Yeah I realize that. I'm just saying it wouldn't work in Eliminator as it's set up now. I was more or less responding with Koleax to JFthebestJan.

[kaori]

Oh yes, sorry, you're right, I missed some posts :P

[SaturnReturn]

I feel the game already involves the weapons dodging element of skill. In a race with lots of players, it's already hard to survive without absorbing a lot and keeping your shield energy high. We also already have to avoid bombs from lapped racers because they will potentially already ruin your rare if you're out front. Introducing perma-elims would put more emphasis on this skill, but for me it would be too much.

Bombs from lapped racers feel like a real nuisance. If this option for no respawns were implemented without option, I'd like to see something that makes sure it can't happen. I wouldn't much like it if games were frequented by players using pilot assist to help them survive, and then dropping bombs on people who were generally better than them, thus eliminating them and winning the match. (I know we can turn PA option off, but there aren't that many games on line these days so currently we just have to put up with it sometimes). It's very easy to drop bombs in virtually or even completely unavoidable places. That doesn't take much time to figure out or much skill to do, IMO. Let's not forget that there are never warnings for bombs from lapped players either, or at least I don't think I've ever had one. I think the game has a reasonable balance in terms of speed and weapons skill already. That's probably why I it is so noticeable when occasionally a player like wellington or wotan comes along who is almost unbeatable.

I'm definitely in the less weapons favouring camp, simply because I feel they are overpowered. I hadn't played much wipeout before HD, only Fusion. I had a demo of one of the others I think, possible Wip3out :?:. Anyway, I got a real thrill from eliminating the AI, because I had to catch up first, then use my weapon with skill. At least that's how I remember it. Now I think eliminations are all too easy and all too frequent. Unless they were balanced, as I and others mentioned earlier, then I think people would get frustrated with this feature. So the option definitely 'necesse est'. I would kind of like to try no eliminations at all actually, like WipEout. It sounds like it might work better online.

[AG-wolf]

You know what would make a lot of these problems less frustrating? Longer tracks... I'm talking +30 or 40 seconds a lap.

Wipeout 1 had courses that were nearly a minute long per lap. If they made the tracks longer and kept the same amount of weapons pads, it wouldn't feel like something is constantly exploding in front of or on top of you. It would force people to hold onto the weapons for more opportune moments... I dunno... I'm just rambling I think... though I still wish the courses were longer.

[Koleax]

Eliminations used to give you points in tournaments as well. It was marginal, but would make the difference between first and second place sometimes.

[lunar]

I go along very much that if we are to have option 1, "death is death" only, then the game needs a redesign to make ramming less damaging and to cut out having too many eliminations you couldn`t do a damn thing about. However if the necessary changes could be made I think that respawning should be removed altogether - no options. You die.... you die. Irresponsible and somewhat unlucky pilots should blow up and it should be up to us to avoid this. It`s just a better game that way. Maybe some kind of relaxing chill out mini-game could be added for eliminated players to amuse themselves with. Maybe eliminated players could be made to watch adverts.

I think that with respawning in the game there is too much of a temptation to turn it all into a combat-heavy fragfest. It`s all got something of Eliminator about it. With respawns there is actually more "death" because it`s just an inconvenience not a terrible thing that strikes fear into you. If there is no respawning then it all has to be balanced, the gameplay has to be right, so I wish I had voted for option 1 but with the condition that the game is redesigned in the ways to make this something we can live with.

[username]

I chose the lonely rule.
Simply because i think it adds a more realistic option to the race.
However if this idea was to be used, i think option 2 sounds the most likely - Going from definite respawn, to definite not respawning seems unlikely, and will most likely upset alot of beginners.
However I would also like to see the option to use absorb OR pitlane (using pitlane would change the absorb button to the good old fashined discard button! - I think the discard button/pit lane combo was a little more professional feeling, than the absorb anytime feature)

What do you guys think of my idea?

[Koleax]

I do miss the feeling of racing through the pit lane. That's one of the first things that blew me away about Wipeout, not slowing down through the pit lane at all.

But that's long gone. It wasn't even in Fusion.

[O_BR]

I voted no. It would take the fun right out.

I don't want to wait around until the others finish the race if I get eliminated. I came to PLAY online,
not to sit and wait any more than the needed (track selection, loading and results).

About the option to choose the respawn on or off, I'm not really up for keeping an eye out on the
host's settings to see if there's respawns or not. Just a humongous pain in the ass in addition to
finding a room with suitable speed class and competition level, not to mention enough players in
that particular room.

In addition to that, it would divide the players too much. Since there are already players who only
race on certain speed class, we don't need another division criteria.

It's good as it is. Same goes for absorbing the pick-ups for energy.

[blackwiggle]

I voted 3.
WHY?
Well I look at the situation of online play this way.
If you are a accomplished pilot you would rarely get respawned anyway,you would know the tracks,and,most likely the opposition you are playing against.
Familiar territory so to speak.

BUT,if you are a new pilot with limited skills who doesn't know the tracks and is getting eliminated constantly,and not being respawned,well,I could see that pilot getting very disenchanted with the game very quickly,and then not bothering to play online again.

As it is,you can wait a fair while to get into a online race that suits you.
Getting eliminated on the first lap can happen to the best of us,without respawn,well the chances of getting new ,"evolving" talented players that STICK TO THE GAME diminishes considerably.

Without Respawn the whole online experience becomes far to frustrating for new players,so they give up.

We ALL want more players .

[crawdad62]

I can certainly see that blackwiggle. In fact it's hard enough just getting a game online let alone one where you might have to sit on the sidelines for most of a race. I kind of alluded to it earlier. But having the option to turn it on/off to me seems like the best of both worlds. Got a room of your own buddies in there? Turn off respawn and have at it!

[kaori]

...

We ALL want more players .

Not necessarily, i prefer playing with my friend, and kill Wotan or pirhapac would allow me to take 8 points lead :banzai in a tournament !

[jan709]

great idea, i would like to see the dead is dead but only as a choice.
so i can turn it off when they show commercials when youre dead:P

[Motorsagmannen]

interesting thread.
i have experienced the glitch earlier and, that made me wonder why they have two different rules, between online and offline play when it came to respawning.
i would definitely nlt go back to having a permanent true death, but i really like thd idea of beeing able to turn it on. main reason is i likd the enhanced tactikal play this would offer. when death on the tracks is finall you are forced to take a whole new perspective on the overall situation. risk/reward when BRing, using pickups instead of absorbing for health etc.
but as others have pointed out, i think the damage system needs to be refined to avoid utter carnage.
sidetrack: how about adding a classical eliminator tournament option? i have missed that and know of many racing games that have it. no relevance to this debate but simply have a feature where last player in each race is eliminated untill theres only one left. ( of course could also work with last player each lap for singe races with the number lf laps adjusting to the number of players.

[Vartazian]

I wish they had this implimented when I started... would of been a great way to start learnign the game. Negative Reinforcement is key to get better.