The benefits of Speed Lap and Time Trial compared

[SaturnReturn]

Mod Words
This discussion has been moved over here to the HD forum from the Speed Lap Challenge (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=157355#post157355) thread as it was an interesting topic that I felt deserved its own thread:

Context: It was mentioned that a TT challenge might be worth running in parallel with the SL challenge, so I began by mentioning what I felt were the benefits of doing TT at the same time as SL....

TT FTW. For anyone doing a lot of speed laps, I think time trial is a very good idea anyway. It aids in the speed laps by generating consistency which means fast speed laps are likely to be more frequent. You learn slightly different things from them both too. Sometimes sl is so much about the BRs and boost location that lines lose out, particularly as you often have to concentrate on a good boost at the start of the lap as well as the normal boost location. That's what I've always found anyway, and in the long term I think TT brings the greater improvements.

[leungbok]

Sometimes sl is so much about the BRs and boost location that lines lose out, particularly as you often have to concentrate on a good boost at the start of the lap as well as the normal boost location
Oh oh, no ! Maybe for a good rank but for a rank 1 to 5 on sl, you really need both (BRs, good boost/BR AND GOOD LINES) ! At least at phantom speed. The
margin still exist on several tracks. As an example, to reach top 5 on anulpha pass phantom sl (the most practiced track) you have to include your BRs on practically perfect lines. If you can only perform the BRs = rank 25+.
Rank 1 on TT are reachable with 2/3 mistakes (some BRs missed, wall's hits, lines missed). 99 speedlaps in a row helps to acquire automatism that will be very usefull on TT. Personnaly i feel a much bigger margin on TT than sl, my main problems are the concentration and my perfectionism, if i don't start a TT with a practically perfect lap (like my pb on sl) i restart the race, and doing those starts is very scarce, lol. IMHO, difficulty on TT isn't to have good lines, but to succeed 5 X hard BRs or boosts that are already hard to perform once on sl (i'm sure Pirahpac would agree with that.) So no, mate, your lines can't lose out for a rank 5 to 1 on sl (phantom) ;)

[yeldar2097]

margemargemarge :lol

TT = Hard for conentration + skill
SL = Hard for skill + skill + patience
Don't take this too literally I'm just being an arse

They are both hard, but yeldar like TT best because the youtube videos are longer :g

[SaturnReturn]

Oh oh, no ! Maybe for a good rank but for a rank 1 to 5 on sl, you really need both (BRs, good boost/BR AND GOOD LINES) ! At least at phantom speed.......etc

For top ranks yes, you need both lines and barrel rolls, in both TT and SL. I think we'd both agree that an absolutely perfect TT is far more difficult than an absolutely perfect SL. I also agree with you, that a top 5 TT is less perfect as a TT than a top 5 SL is as a SL. My point is more about what the brain is thinking about, specifically on tracks where a good boost is required at the start. An example:

Chenghou project reverse - A good boost is needed at the start on this track. A good line around the final hairpin bend and last corner is also crucial. If a player only does speed lap, then there is a chance that they will constantly be cancelling their lap to get the boost back and mostly thinking about the start than about the last corners. But if they mix in TT as well, then they don't have that boost at the start, so can concentrate more on the last corners. It's a subconcious thing that a lot of people won't realise they are doing as they already have so much to think about in either event. No doubt it's also something that players such as yourself and pirahpac won't have to worry about anyway, because you've thought about this stuff a lot and are very experienced. But for less experienced players, I think doing both TT and SL teaches different things about a track, and therefore, in general, a lot of people would benefit from doing them both and not only concentrating on one.

[leungbok]

Off course, both (TT & sl) are complementary !! sl is the best way of learning the track's subtilities, trying some tricks and improving his timing response. TT is the best training for preparing multiplayer races (with some sr sessions) and learn consistency
To be a complete fast racer both are necessary, in another way it's a matter of taste ! Some prefers 100m and others 400m ;)

[SaturnReturn]

:+ Super thumbs up. Comparing the taste element to long distance vs. short distance running is an excellent way to put it.:)

[yeldar2097]

@Sat & Leung: Does this mean I am weird if I find TT the best way to learn/improve on a track and SL is only for practicing BRs...? :P
It's always interesting to see how different players approach different modes :)

[leungbok]

Yes, definitely weird ! :lol
Seriously, on speedlap you can go further in learning a track. You can be more precise at each turn and bumps and step by step you can find the most effective lines and tricks. In TT i reproduce what sl learned to me ;)

[SaturnReturn]

No yeldar. I'm the same. I don't like speed lap as much because I find I just give up as soon as it's not perfect. This is probably because I am aiming for a higher level of perfection. It's largely approach and preference. If I prefer TT outright then I will do it more. Therefore I will learn more just because I spent more time on it. I do still think TT has benefits though. In TT I can look at the best of 5 laps each time and see what kind of margin I have. In this way I know whether or not I can keep improving. It spurs me on and I improve faster. Then I can take this over to speed lap and do a lot better (generally) at it than I would have done if I just tried speed lap from the start. In speed lap I will just have lots and lots of invalid laps that don't help me at all. But this is me. This is how I do things and isn't necessarily how others approach it. For others speed lap will be better and more fun. It all depends how you approach each event and process the feedback each gives you.

[leungbok]

Sometimes when i do a TT and if i perform a fast lap, i tell myself : "Damn, this lap would have been a winner in a sl session, s**t !" :lol.
I'm like Kanar here, i search for the ultimate lap ! And it's also possible to try some crazy tricks barely do-able on 5 laps :)
But both are great for big adrenaline rush !
And about consistency, after hours on speedlap, you can know every inch of a track and in fact only one lap can appear quite long in fact, with several sections that you have to think of ! So consistency can be improved to in practicing speedlap (but it comes faster with TT).
About TT, i'm quiet and concentrate during the four first laps, and i start to be very very stressed when the 5th lap begins, more stressed than on a great start on a speedlap :eek

[SaturnReturn]

I get that too leungbok. That last lap after a good four laps is really very intense and so easy to mess up.

[Koleax]

Speed Lap is great to just chill out and run as many laps as you want (up to 100) on any track. You can play whatever music you want, long or short, and really zone out. Sometimes I don't even realize what I'm doing and I'm awakened by the voice, "New Lap Record" and I think, whoa, how did I do that! Very fun. :)

The best is when I fly off the track somewhere and get a great new spot to take pictures. I'm playing around in speed lap and all of a sudden I'm spending the next half-hour in photo mode.

I haven't done any TTs outside the campaign, except for one or two. I'm not big on times. I think they're interesting and I'll get to TTs someday. I just don't think they're the best or most important part of the game. Weapons, Zone mode, the thrill of surviving, exploring and fighting your way through a dangerous beautiful environment -- that's what I find the most fun.

[Dark_Phantom_89]

SaturnReturn - You could make a poll to go with this thread and see what people think of SL and TT that way?

[SaturnReturn]

I think that might turn it into speed lap vs. time trial. It's a comparison, not a contest, so I will avoid a poll. But I made a suggestion in the Speed Lap Challenge thread as to how you can run TT without losing out on participants for SL.

[yeldar2097]

I often get that feeling during a TT - @#$%@#$@#% that would have been sweet in speed lap!! nooooooo :lol

Like I said before I learn/improve much faster through TT for some reason. I tend to pay much more attention to the track in TT than I do in SL. Any revelation that I have tends to be during a TT session, at which point I will try to perfect the technique in speed lap. I'm confused :dizzy
I shall try to explain why...might urn out to be a fail but meh, at least I'll be on topic for once :P

With SL I will always try to improve my time by doing what I think to be the fastest way around the track - If I mess up I just BSB (:lol) back to the start line --> rinse, repeat.
Obviously with SL the start is very important and can lose you a lot of time (and some are v easy to mess up). This, coupled with what I said above makes it very hard to follow your ghost in real time so it's harder to tell which lines are faster: if you're behind, ditch the lap, if you mess the start, ditch the lap ---> no imrovement.
In TT on the other hand, you can follow/run like fury from your ghost for 5 laps straight in real time so it's easier to tell where you make up/lose time in a lap. You also have more opportunity to make up lost time so you will be less inclined to restart 1/2 way through (of course the 1st lap has to be good but you see what i mean).
In TT you are constantly trying to go as fast as you can but nobody (except elois and bot) is 100% consistent so sometimes if you are behind you will discover a line that is faster than your normal SL line or a line that makes a BR much easier etc...

I hope this made some kind of sense, I was kinda making it up as I went along...Maybe I'll edit it later on.

At the end of the day (yes I am a premiership footballer ;)) I like both modes.
I wonder if anyone else does things the same as me? Let's see :g

[billychanxtr33m]

if i want to practice a track i almost always do speed lap because there is no down time between different runs like there is in time trial. its the same when i want to practice some live fire races, i always tournament instead of single race.

[leungbok]

To prevent from the temptation of canceling a lap if my ghost is in front, i usually desactivate it atm (another reason is the still remaining ghost bug :(). Except for the videos, to have more entertainment !
I just try to catch my ghost for some laps just to notice several checkpoint's time and after i stay focus on the track.
The ghost is very usefull at the begining to find the faster ways on every sections of a track. After a moment it's just a nuisance which prevent from maximum concentration. At a point, i know what's the fastest way (except if new BRs, boost... are discovered), the only thing is to be able of reproducing what i have in mind, lol. Sometimes even if i imagine exactly the perfect lap, i just can't perform some of the crazy tricks found by Pirahpac, Ak-furtif or others :brickwall

[yeldar2097]

<<I just can't perform some of the crazy tricks found by Pirahpac, Ak-furtif or others
(AKA leungBRbok) >>
Er...what?!?!? I'm sorry... WHAT?! oO :P


Ghosts can be annoying but bugged ghosts are even worse...unless they are just in front so you can work hard to catch them :g

[leungbok]

yeah, even if i succeed on some hard BRs, Pirahpac is the king for insane boosting ! ;)
I never had a bugged ghost that was in front ! :eek They always are slower than my pb, so totally unusefull ! :?

[Vartazian]

I like TT because its more then one Lucky BR that you THINK you could of Pulled off (As it is the case in speed lap) and in my opinion luck is a larger token then skill in this aspect.

Think about it in SL you have so many things that make it so unrealalistic you can Boost at the start line which already makes it a highly unrealistic time, its all on BR's which CAN take skill but hald of them require hitting some sort of wall to get thrusted into the air, Again doesnt help your lines.

TT at least you have to be consistant and if you mess up once its over, that means You have to make sure your damn perfect every lap with no Screw ups. No boosting at the line means a more realistic time, and LAp Consistancy again... Cant stress this enough.

In Conclusion

TT >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SL in the skill rating in my opinion.

[IH8YOU]

I wasn't aware we were in a police state.

Comments deleted.

[SaturnReturn]

Guys, this came from another thread to start with so I might not have explained the topic properly. Just to clarify now, its about the benefits of TT and SL, i.e. how each one helps us improve at the game overall. It's not about TT vs. SL in terms of one being 'better'. Phrases or words such as one taking more luck, more skill, better, worse, more 'realistic' (let's be honest, it's a game based around an entirely fictional concept - realism is not what it's about) have rarely led to good discussion in the past. So let's try and keep this as an objective comparison.

[yeldar2097]

afaik they both test different racing disciplines and can benefit the way you race in different ways :)

Besides, getting a good SL is not really about luck. Firstly you have to be able to pull off the BRs needed or whatever it is you're trying to do. then you have to be pull off the other stuff needed. then you have to string it all together in one ****-off fast lap with lines as close to (what you think to be) perfect as possible without loosing your nerve if you're in front of your ghost.
Whether or not you think it has become a BR-hunting-BSB-fest is beside the point; you still need to be pretty nifty with a pad to get good times.
One could make similar points about TT and we could be here discussing it till next week.

/mildly offtopic pseudo-rant

How I treat SL & TT

SL helps with: Finding BRs, Testing/honing variations on existing techniques (brought on by brainwaves during TT), trying ridiculous methods that will probably never work, testing BRs that I can't do in TT, playing music when i want to go outside and can't be bothered to turn off WO.

TT helps with: general improvement of ship control, consistency, Avalon practice ;), getting into the zone, finding faster lines (from ghost chasing), maintaining concentration levels for race-length periods of time, warming up for WWC, warming up for SL, finding easier/safer ways of doing BRs/boostBRs in online races or on te 5th lap when i always crack.

I'm sure i've missed some stuff and I realise the TT list is longer but that's because I prefer it...so but never mind, this is how I see TT and SL in my mind and I use them accordingly :g

Edit: I actually responded before saturn but I let him (teehee) remove my awesome (albeit redundant :( ) point...DAMN YOU SATURN! :g
I like this bit, good compromise :lol
@IH8YOU: What happened to the sideshifts? I can't remember...I might not even have known was a SS was back then so.... :)

[IH8YOU]

They were a lot more consistent - faster responding, and moved you further laterally than they do now.

[Vartazian]

I didnt notice anything about these Sideshifts being changed. Hmm Maybe IH8's Racing style is so precise that the tiniest change throws it completley off centre. I know a few pilots like that as well.

Is there a Game Breaking mechanic like BSB in TT Yeldar? Im actually curious. You mentioned theres something like that for TT. Or Perhaps I read wrong.

PS: Good to know my opinions are so extreme it makes people Hate themselves!

Gooooo VART!

[yeldar2097]

Sorry I meant that one could also make points (similar to those I outlined for SL) illustrating the relative skill-level needed for TT
My bad... :)

[leungbok]

I like TT because its more then one Lucky BR that you THINK you could of Pulled off (As it is the case in speed lap) and in my opinion luck is a larger token then skill in this aspect.

There's no luck involved in performing BRs :eek
ONLY ABILITY AND TIMING !


its all on BR's which CAN take skill but hald of them require hitting some sort of wall to get thrusted into the air, Again doesnt help your lines.
.
At phantom speed, hitting any sort of wall makes you lose time !

Ok, you don't like bsb guys ! But What about some incredible times on sol2 forward using a glitch ? Lot of people here were schocked by bsb, but no one never mention those times :eek Do you really know and care about sl, because if something corrupted sl leaderboards it's glitches NOT bsb ?

Like Yeldar would says :
TT/sl/bsb = skills
weapons/glitches = luck

It's a pity that an interesting thread like that already begins to show those kind of complaints about luck and blablabla, corrupted boards and blablabla.
Was it impossible to only use objective arguments and racing experiments ? :(

[Frances_Penfold]

I definitely appreciate both sides of this argument... but for me, speed laps are far more entertaining and useful than full race time trials.

Honestly, one of the reasons that I favor Pure over Pulse these days is because the former has a proper speed lap event (free racing mode) while the latter has a measly seven lap event :P

[SaturnReturn]

I had thought that some might have taken Vartazian's and IH8YOU's comments to heart slightly. I was going to mention it myself but rather thought it better to just encourage everyone to stay on topic.

@Vartazian & IH8YOU - please make sure to fully understand what the thread is about first and refrain from comparisons about luck and skill in threads like this. Exaggerations such as the comments about hitting walls to get barrel rolls don't help things either. They are more prevalent at lower speeds. But I feel this is still exaggerated and slightly demeaning to speed lap fans. Mention of BSB was unnecessary. If it is mentioned, words like 'corrupted' have very negative connotations to begin with. These have been discussed widely elsewhere. So to prevent going down that route again, using a neutral term such as 'affected' would be slightly less provocative. Although not mentioning it at all would be preferable.

@Leungbok - I would rather you had noted what I said earlier and ignored Vartazian's post. It takes two to tango and that's how these things spiral out of control. But I appreciate your right to reply.

@All - You've all expressed your opinion on this side of things now, so let's end it here and from now on keep things strictly on topic.

[amplificated]

I agree with Yeldar's take on it... SL is good for finding the best boost and BR spots, as well as allowing you to hone particular parts of the track a lot easier than TT since there are a lot of "mundane" points in the track you have to navigate between each serious crack at your records. Doing that 99 times definitely allows you to practice better lines.

TT seems to be about perfecting a more practical course and probably helps with online more than speed lap. I think that's what Vartazian meant by "realistic": it's generally more practical to use what you'd do for TT in an online race than trying to make 5 SL times each lap.

I find SL is easier to get into than TT. Probably has to do with the fact that each lap is a new attempt and you have 99 of them, but in TT you have to restart if anything goes wrong - and it does... a whole lot :P It can also be depressing when you're in your 3rd/4th/5th lap and make a huge mistake for the 8th time in a row.

[leungbok]

Theorically 99 laps one after the other seems the best way to acquire experience on a track and it is, at least at the discovering of a new track. But later (when you know well the track) the problem is that it's practically impossible to be fully concentrated during a full session (at least for me). So i think the possibilities of improvement on sl are about 30/40% of a whole session. It's sometimes easier to be fully concentrated on a TT (at least for the 2/3 first tries) ;)

[SaturnReturn]

Apologies if I went OTT earlier. I was just trying to keep things on track, but probably jumped the gun. I've taken on board the feedback from those involved and will keep it in mind for the future.

@leungbok - very true mate. That's the trouble I have. I feel like so many laps are wasted in SL the way I do it. Time Trial too though - constantly restarting wastes a lot of time. This is why I try to discipline myself not to restart too often, even if I mess up. I have to do the same in SL, i.e. not cancel every lap and start again asap, but carry out the lap as normal, as if the boost reset feature wasn't there. I always fail at it though and just hit reset anyway.:(

[JFthebestJan]

SL & TT re like "yin&yang", 2 different things that complement one another perfectly. a complete racer (time-hunter) has to be a master of both modi.

[Dark_Phantom_89]

^^^ Nicely said - I like that analogy