Wipeout HD in 3D in 2010!!

[Golgofier]

And "any" other game too for that matter as the 3D capability of the PS3 will be provided as a software update. Check the link and video 8)

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/04/ps3s-new-3d-mode-captured-on-video-coming-in-2010-to-all-exist/

[chboing]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaah :D

[Vartazian]

Lol hes in 8th place racing at venom.

Noob.

[SonicChaos]

Yea, I noticed that as well. It's amazing, but I'm not gonna buy a $1000 TV just to play it though.

[okam]

I get headaches just thinking about it. Do not want.

[IH8YOU]

Stats, Fury, 3D Wipeout experience.... we keep getting this, yet all I want is 1.26 era online gameplay.

[billychanxtr33m]

i have to agree with okam, plus who is going to get a whole new tv just for a gimmick like that?

[Lance]

A software update and hardware glasses?

[IH8YOU]

Lance - LCDs are polarized as that's how they operate (except instead of your eyes - they rotate polarization around sub pixels giving you the primary colors) - well, manufacturers FINALLY caught onto this aspect. If you put polarized sunglasses on (or happen to have some polarizing film laying around your basement like I do) - hold it up to an LCD screen - as you rotate it, you can completely black out the screen, rotate it 90 degrees, and suddenly it's completely clear. Using the properties of polarization and extinction - they put polarized lenses into 3d glasses - 90 degrees off plane from one another. So if your left eye needs to see an image - the LCD rotates the polarization for that frame while the right is black, the the next frame, it rotates it 90 degrees off so the right eye sees it. The staggered images give you a 3d experience. Much akin to the red and blue glasses - except instead of filtering by color (those always made me queasy) - they filter by polarization - so all the color is retained. Couple that with 120hz - and each eye gets to see 60hz video, and your brain says "holy $h!t 3_@*#&ing_D" Or you have a seizure. Both entertaining.

So you need a tv set that has a set polarization (most older LCDs seem to be random so no dice) - and it must be able to do at least 120hz if you want to see 60hz 3d. And some polarized glasses - and that's by far the cheapest component here.

[Lance]

I know how it works; I was being ironic. :D

But I do appreciate the work you put into the explanation.

[ProblemSolver]

I like.


... So you need a tv set that has a set polarization (most older LCDs seem to be random so no dice) - and it must be able to do at least 120hz if you want to see 60hz 3d. ...
Given that the game should run in 1080p at 60fps in 3D, we would need
60 frames for the right and 60 frames for the left eye. I'm really questioned
whether WipEout HD is capable of rendering 120 frames per second. I guess
the whole thing comes along with a reduction in resolution or framerate, if
the 3D effect should be for real, i.e. the whole scene is computed twice
for each 3D frame (= two 2D frames), each with a different camera angle.

[chboing]

yeah, well polarization is just a way right ? you also have the lcd glasses synchronized with the screen am i wrong ?
anyway, i agree you need 120 fps to get 60 fps 3D, but i'm sure once you computed a scene for right eyes, then compute the same scene for left eye will be faster, some sort of algo or soft or hard will do this no ?

[Lance]

When the time comes that it can be done without wearing glasses or other hardware, then I might like 3D. <damned perfectionist.

[Darkdrium777]

I would think it would run at 30FPS for 3D, and split screen would be unavailable simply because this is already running below 30FPS all the time. So it would be 30FPS 3D (Division of the normal 60FPS into 30FPS for left eye, 30FPS for right eye). It wouldn't be as smooth, but it would still be better than split screen :)

I don't think I have the screen for that though, my screen is a simple computer monitor from a few years ago. Only 60Hz.

[ProblemSolver]

@chboing: Yes, I think some stuff can be reused while computing the frame
for the other eye.

@Lance: The time has already come, but those glasses-free displays are not much
in use in the gaming sector, yet. There are 3D-displays out there that uses
about 5 masks to synthezise a steroscopic picture such that while looking at it
produces a three-dimensional effect without using glasses. It works by
intercepting the rendering pipline (usually based on OpenGL) to force it to
render additional pictures with a different camera positions each. A special
driver will then pre-process these images and send them to the 3D-display.
I was on a trade show where you could test and even buy those 3D-displays.
There are only two downsides to them. First, you can't perceive the 3D effect
while looking from the 'sides', and second, the resolution displayed is always
less as the one internally rendered, because those masks do cover space on the
display as well, they are all weaved together in some way.

I had always some doubts about whether this technique works out or not. But it
does! And it looks very good! I even played a racing game on the trade show. Up
to my point of view it is the best solution for 3D gaming, but an expensive one!
There exist some 3D-displays that can display a resolution of 1080p, but
rendering multiple frames at 1080p puts a heavy load on current graphics
accelerator. One can get a low-resolution 3D display (about 800x600) for about
1k EUR as of today.

Those displays are currently used in some parts of the industry and in academia.

[KIGO1987]

So what are the complete specification televisions that will allow the use of this technology?

What Hz would i need,
Whats size screen?
etc....

[ProblemSolver]

The mentioned technology is already incorperated into those 3D-displays. It's not like
that you can download a software and buy a usual display to get the same effect.

[Golgofier]

3D in movies - nah, don't really see the point so not very interested (although I realize I may well have to take that back sooner or later, it's not like that argument hasn't been used before to describe tech we now take for granted)

3D gaming - yes I'm definitely interested! Just seems like it would be a natural extension and more close to reality. It's a 3 dimensional world, friends :)

[Chill]

Until it feels like you're REALLY in the craft with side tvs and such, I don't think I'll care too much either...

Would rather want old Wipeouts online... but I won't mention it... :D

[MEKAGORI]

lol, Especially in WipEout HD when so much information is coming at you at one time BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING SO MIND NUMBINGLY FAST LIKE I AM RIGHT NOW! IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE MIND TO COMPREHEND ANYTHING AT THIS SPEED!

[Lance]

And it makes typing difficult, too. :) Good job, MEKAGORI.

[silverfoxy]

It all sounds very lovely and technical. No real idea what most of you are on about I'm afraid and I do think on occasions ignorance is bliss 8)

I'm just wondering how mental zone 100+ would be in 3D !!

[stin]

I will do it anyway!8)<---while typing in 3D :beer

stevie:donut

[Spece2goin]

WTF, The HUD itself is not in 3D, but it has to be the thing that must come first! (like the missile lock-on)

i'm pretty pessimistic about rendering 60fps for each eye... and we can't see it in the video cause it's under...

[eLhabib]

Wow, that's good news! Now I'm really glad that the TV I bought back in spring is a 200Hz Bravia! Oughtta work on this one! :hyper

[abukii]

The one question I have is that its stated that the 3-D aspect will be a firmware upgrade. Is it optional to download the FW? Im sure there are plenty of folk (myself included) thatd dont have a 200mz tv yet.

[IH8YOU]

Two things. A 200millihertz TV would be.... 1 frame every 5 seconds. And a 200Megahertz TV would be pointless - even for robots, ProblemSolver and Yeldar alike.

A TV that can do 3D must have a coupe of things aside from the 120Hz to render 60Hz towards each eye - Wipeout HD currently runs at 60Hz (as do most games and video sources today) A 60Hz TV could run 3D at 30Hz - which isn't as fluid - but it seemed to work for everyone in the days of the original Playstation. More importantly - 120Hz or 240Hz doesn't mean the TV does 3D - you need a 3D ready set, so don't just assume the faster refresh rates also mean you get 3D - you may not, so keep an eye open for that. Polarization, filters, input coupling all are just as critical as the refresh rate - so unless the set blatantly states it's 3D or 3D ready - it's likely not.

Also - I still want to see how the PS3 - a single PS3, that is, could render Wipeout HD/Fury at twice the speed - when you can see this system struggle just to maintain 60Hz right now.

[Lance]

All that stuff that advertises itself as ______-ready is only ready for you to add the extra hardware that will make it actually deliver ______ .

[mic-dk]

Well, I already wear one pair of glasses. They are kinda necessary for me to play WOHD in 2D... Contacts are unfortunately not an option for me.

I'll wait in the corner, shaking my fist at technology, until I can join the party.

[Darkdrium777]

Also - I still want to see how the PS3 - a single PS3, that is, could render Wipeout HD/Fury at twice the speed - when you can see this system struggle just to maintain 60Hz right now.Yes, I thought about that too. That 3D thing must be at 30FPS. Would be more fluid than split-screen as it is running right now (Which I theorize is around 20FPS, and not 30FPS like they said it would be), but not by much. I'd take 60FPS over fancy 3D anytime for serious gameplay, though I would try it out if I could in some instances.

Because, what other game is also in 3D? GT5? It's also at 60FPS 1080p. Motorstorm Pacific Rift? Not sure, I think it's 720p 60FPS...

[SonicChaos]

Well, I already wear one pair of glasses. They are kinda necessary for me to play WOHD in 2D... Contacts are unfortunately not an option for me.

Same here. That and I'll take higher frame rates over 3-D any day.

[abukii]

Well they were saying in the video that youll need at least 200 hz. 100hz per eye. Another thing that was said is that there is no set date for 3-D gaming. That video is false :naughty
Source: http://kotaku.com/5353830/sony-backs-down-on-3d-gaming-timeline

[TaroBarkhan]

For anyone interested, this is how the screens with 3D effect (without the use of glasses) work.

http://www.3d-forums.com/autostereoscopic-displays-t1.html

[blackwiggle]

The biggest problem is what format 3D will take.
There is still a LOT of technical issues to be sorted before either of the 3D systems are ready for consumer use,it takes a lot more than a 200hz TV set and the set would have to work in a different manner than the 200hz model you have now.

Toshiba called a meeting between the two different camps to sort it before there is another format war similar to HDDVD & BlueRay,it's scheduled for mid October,see if anything comes of it.

If they use the same system as in the movie "UP" it should look fine,if that's possible at consumer level in the next few years though I'll be very surprised.

[rushin]

meh :P

i dont see how a tech that requires everyone to wear glasses is going to catch on at all. similiarly the glass free approach is pointless as you need to be sitting at a very specific angle to get the proper effect. Does not translate to peoples living room's.

It's all very interesting from a geek perspective but totally not ready for general use imo.

[Xavier]

I'm dreading the coming of 3-D because, AFAIK, it requires that you have full sight in both eyes. I'm partially blind and can't see out of my left eye; I can't see those stupid stereograms at all.

Is 3-D really so wonderful that it's worth shutting out a segment of the population?

[eLhabib]

Well, not to sound harsh, but that's like saying let's do everything in black and white because there are some people who are colorblind. :?

[Xavier]

Well, not to sound harsh, but that's like saying let's do everything in black and white because there are some people who are colorblind. :?

See, there's my question. As someone who can see color, I think color images are much better than black and white for video games (though you can still play them in B/W). I'm happy color TV was invented and wouldn't want to go back to B/W.

On the other hand, the difference between standard-definition images and wide-screen high-definition is almost negligible to me, and I wouldn't have minded very much if HD had never come about.

What is the difference like with 3-D? Once you see a game in 3-D, is there "no going back", or is it just a nice additional thing to have?

[eLhabib]

Wait, what?! You obviously have never seen any good quality 1080p footage! It's like night and day!

Personally, I like 3D, it does add to movies (and presumably videogames) to give it that extra level of immersion, but it's in no way something I would need in a game. At least not as much as HD graphics - I don't ever wanna go back to SD :blarg

[Xavier]

1080p, probably not yet. So far all I've done it watched DVDs and played PS2 games on my new TV (upscaled). I definitely like it more than SD, but not *that* much more. Certainly not as important as color vs. B/W. My opinion might change when I play something in real 1080p, of course.


Personally, I like 3D, it does add to movies (and presumably videogames) to give it that extra level of immersion, but it's in no way something I would need in a game. At least not as much as HD graphics - I don't ever wanna go back to SD :blarg

Good to hear -- if the 3-D transition is less than the SD transition, iI must not be missing out on that much. Hopefully playing in 2-D will still be an option.

[eLhabib]

Well, obviously if you just upscale SD input to HD it's not gonna look great. You ain't seen nothing yet, believe me!

[Darkdrium777]

Dude, 1080p is ridiculously better. I don't want to go back to an SDTV, it just sucks in comparison. Jittery text, 29.97 refresh rate hurts the eyes, etc. Playing in HD is so much better believe me.
Watching movies and TV are too by extension.

[Zitrax]

Apart from 3D I guess this technique could be used to let two players race in 2D full screen against each other on the same TV without splitting the view.

[blackwiggle]

You will probably have to change a few components in your playback systems before 3D of any type becomes common place.

Main reason being they have just changed the HDMI specification to V 1.4 and it's quite a large change.

http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/index.aspx

[KIGO1987]

BW what TVs are actually compatible with this new tech?

[blackwiggle]

Very few, if any I imagine.
Even the ones proclaiming to be 3D capable .
I don't see how they could be 3D capable, as no decision has been made on which standard [the actual technology used] that will be chosen for 3D home playback,there were two ,now three competing 3D systems.
The people involved are having a meeting in a month to TRY to come to an agreement.
This was brought about by Toshiba [who got their heads kicked in with HDDVD and don't want to back the wrong horse again]

I think it is going to end up being a similar sort of farcical situation with 3D that we have with what actually defines HD ,[576p & 1080i for TV broadcasts can and are called HD].
720p is the supposed minimum a HD set is supposed to reproduce now days [this is from the early days of Plasma screen,when HD was using component cables as the highest transfer rate,pre HDMI era]

True HD as reproduced in the home atm is either 1080i or 1080p.
I expect that resolution to be doubled in the next 7-8 years.

Blueray is usually one of these two ,you need to check the rear of the case to see which one it is,if it'a 1080i that usually means it is a straight digital transfer,if it's 1080p it will most likely be a downconverted transfer of a new movie that was shot using "RED" or "4k" as it's known,which is 4 X Blueray resolution at 4096 X 2160 as used in the newest Digital Cinemas.

I think it will be a wishful thinking to expect any home 3D playback to be running at 1080p at the beginning,that's a hell of a lot of computational processing of video needed .

The only concrete decision that has been made so far regarding 3D is the type of cables used to transfer the video signal from source to screen,that is the HDMI V1.4 .

I'm not sure if that is actually a wise decision to be honest,for reasons that I won't go into.

You can see where SONY is heading with it's products from this report from CEDIA a few days ago announcing 4 new products.
Wireless connectivity
http://www.avguide.com/article/news-sonys-four-top-product-announcements-cedia?src=Playback

[KIGO1987]

If there are only a very select few tvs that allow the ability of 3D processing, how much of the market actually has these new television sets now? and by this time next year in Q3 of 2010?

That would only be like 5% of the market at best,

If there is a game that is being marketed for a very select few people who actually has these tv sets, your not going to get much success from it, from the limited amount of users that own this type of technology in there homes,

The only thing i can think of, that this 3D tech, will be available for people who have 1080p tv sets.

If not, then there is going to be a product for sale on the market for people who cannot use it.

[ProblemSolver]

Here is a list of '3d Ready' monitors;
http://www.3dmovielist.com/3dhdtvs.html

[KIGO1987]

Thanks PS,

Sweet FA of those tvs in Aus, bit of a bitch though, if they where available here, i could widen my purchase options on buying a tv:)

[Darkdrium777]

Damn those nVidia glasses are expensive. ViewSonic Monitor is too. I guess we will need to wait a while as this is also another "format war" kind of deal...

[Sch@dows]

I was wondering ...

Ok, you need twice the images since you need to displayfor the left and right eyes séparately, but event if you go down to 30FPS per eye, don't we see 60 FPS in total ?

Do the brain really make differences between 60 FPS on both eyes and 2 x 30 FPS ? Because, i know that when you have a deficient eye, the brain often compensate for it with the second eye, so maybe ...

Does someone would have enough knowledge about that ?


Also I don't understand why poeple are somewhat complaining about that 3D possibility. It's not like it will be mandatory. You just have to keep playing the old way and can still enjoy it like always, isn't it ?

[SonicChaos]

It's like the optional 3-D in Rad acer on the NES. You didn't need 3-D glasses, but the option was there if you so desire.

[DawnFireDragoon]

i have zero interest in wearing 3d glasses when i sit down to chill out, relax and play games, but i know loads of people will eat this up, here's a link to a blog of some dude playing it and giving his opinions on the 3d-ness:

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9005741&publicUserId=5991317

[Darkdrium777]

Do the brain really make differences between 60 FPS on both eyes and 2 x 30 FPS ?I can immediately tell when something is at 60FPS or 30FPS.
And if you het 30FPS for each eye, you will see 30FPS in total, just in 3D effect.

[Frances_Penfold]

I wonder if 3D video game tech will first be used at a large commercial scale on a handheld platform-- it would completely remove the display issue because the hardware would come with its own screen that could be optimized for 3D...

[MiguelX69]

Nice... But i'm buying a Sony LCD 720p this cristmas... And I don't care much about 3D gaming...

[Sch@dows]

I can immediately tell when something is at 60FPS or 30FPS.
And if you het 30FPS for each eye, you will see 30FPS in total, just in 3D effect.Of course, so do I (playing 2 player mode is painfull when you are used to single player mode and it's 60 FPS).

What I mean is, do the left and right images are displayed at the same time ? (cannot be sure just from photos since the exposition time could have taken at least 2 frames). I suppose not, because how the glasses would separate each frames if they're blend/mixed together ?
If left and right images are displayed alternatively, than it would be 30 FPS per eyes, but 60 FPS in total, generated by the console and received by the brain (though it's still 30 FPS if you close one eye).

So, in that regard, do the brain could really tell the difference ?

I don't really know how the brain works for that (and for other things too ^_^'), having never tested it myself.

[Lance]

The brain doesn't always work. During those periods, it's a lot easier to analyse. ;)

[ProblemSolver]

Here are two pictures showing that the 3D effect already runs with Fury.

http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/0909/sony-3d-fernseher-ps3/thumb480/wipeout-hd-1.jpg (http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/0909/sony-3d-fernseher-ps3/wipeout-hd-1.jpg)
(click)

And here (http://scr3.golem.de/screenshots/0909/sony-3d-fernseher-ps3/wipeout-hd-0.jpg) is the second one.

[MetaKraken]

I wonder if it includes seizures (like the one episode from Pokémon).

[IH8YOU]

Nope, it includes 3D ads. :pirate

[ProblemSolver]

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1632/wohdin3d.jpg
A visitor at the Sony Building in Ginza, Tokyo, tries out a PlayStation 3
game on a 3-D TV on January 21, YOSHIAKI MIURA PHOTO

One lucky guy! :)

I'm stilled questioned whether the resolution of 1080p can be retained for
WipEout HD while being viewed on 3-D.

[Koleax]

Well, the TVs have their own 3D processors, which is part of the reason why current TVs with a refresh rate of 120 Hz or higher are not enough. So some operations are being dumped off to the TV itself, apparently?

[ProblemSolver]

True. I've come to known that Toshiba will utilize their Cell derivative for their
upcoming 3-D TVs as well.

[Sch@dows]

Even if it's true (in my opinion, 3D Ready TV just have to accept a 120Hz input stream where almost every HD TV are limited to 60Hz for now), it doesn't change the fact the console has to generate 2x60 fps (the TV won't compute 2 different field view).

So it may be possible that wipeout HD won't run at 1080p in 3D (it doesn't always run at such a resolution even now)

[ProblemSolver]

Sure the console has to render 2x60fps, no question about that. I thought it
was obvious.

[Sch@dows]

Yes, it is obvious but the initial question was "whether the resolution of 1080p can be retained for WipEout HD while being viewed on 3-D".
Since the console has to compute 120 fps, i doubt it will be have to maintaiin 1080p resolution.

[ProblemSolver]

I doubt it as well, but it's not impossible to say at least, after some modification
have been made to the game, of course.

[Koleax]

The two images would be very similar. Do we really know that the engine would be rendering an entire frame once from one angle and an entire frame once again from a very slightly different angle? Or could it render abstract "frames" of data at 60fps that the TV then splits into two separate images on the fly?

[Sch@dows]

despite being quite similar, they're still different. I don't know how the engine process the data, but even if it's the same 3D scene (would be computed once), the 2D images must be rendered separatly.

blending the to "frame" together, like CRT screen would mean it's not a 1080p.

[aethernet]

I'm not wearing glasses to play a video game.

[Connavar]

Do we even know what kind of 3d technology was used?
I've seen good points mentioned here.

1) 1 or 2 ps3?

2) the ps3 could transfer depth data via the HDMI connection, so a custom TV
could use this to create 2 modified frames for each eye, in this case the game
won't need to render at 120fps, 60 will be enough

3) the game could be rendering at 120 fps, which means the image quality
would suffer (worse textures etc), or ... someone comes up with a very smart
solution. I remember SL had a very smart way to handle 1080p, so maybe
they found a way to go 120fps with each even frame being nearly the same
as the odd one.

I'm sure it's possible to calculate the odd+even frames quicker than usual,
many operations must be done only once per "physical frame" = per 2 frames
here, like updating ship positions, even object visibility should be about the
same.

Obviously a resolution drop or image quality drop would also help...

4) now I'm wondering of the effect of an interleaved 60fps game, so that
would be 60 frames would be L/R/L/R/... every odd frame on the left eye,
and every even frame on the right eye ... will our brain be able to merge
both inputs to produce something 60fps smooth or not?
Would be too good to be true.

[Autechom]

If it will be so great like Rad Racer?

[ProblemSolver]

@Connavar: I would favor using two PS3 not only to get a proper 3-D version of
the game, but also to get a more enhanced stand-alone game with a greater scene
complexity and / or more frames in general. Gran Turismo has such an option
since version 3 (PS2) to render the left and right view (window) of a car
projected onto another TV each. Anyways, it's not feasible to do it that way
at first instance, but on the other hand WOHD could scale with the amount of
PS3 you can throw at it and it's pretty obvious that PS3 becomes much cheaper
as time goes by. But the bigger problem here is to parallelize the code over
multiple units which isn't an easy subject to say at least. Partitioning the
geometry, doing good load-balancing, and having a good communication pattern /
infrastructure across multiple compute nodes (many PS3) is far beyond what most
game-developers are able to do, yet. But it's the future. For example, Polyphony
has shown GT5 running at four times 1080p through a Sony SXHD projector and at
1080p@240fps on a Nano-Spindt FED using four PS3. Just imagine buying another
PS3 to either playing GT5 in 3-D@2x60Hz or in 3D@120Hz. Would be awesome, for
sure.

In general, the issue with 120fps is not that the PS3's computational units
aren't able to process much more date, the issue is that you have to bring in
the data at twice the rate, which essentially cuts the memory bandwidth in half
(with respect to 60fps). Starvation for data kills any fast CPU these days.
Memory bandwidth limitations and memory latency (collectively known as the
Memory Wall) are the core issues we have to face for a very long time. When PS3
developers say; we've utilize all the unit much better than ever before; then
they essentially mean that they have managed to utilize the aggregative memory
bandwidth a lot better than ever before to feed the units with more data to do
something useful.

At the moment I'm quite skeptical about 3-D. No one who has ever visited any
trade-show displaying WipEout HD in 3-D has ever mentioned anything about the
quality. Was the game still running at 1080p with the same amount of detail?
Or was the game running at 720p (or even HALOp = 576p xD) with a reduction in
geometry and texture quality? Only Jesus knows it.

[aethernet]

I've never even heard of the concept of having two consoles and two TV's to play a game. Multiple monitors, yes, but still. That's a lot of money. We're talking entertainment for the rich and famous here.

[Connavar]

In the worst case scenario, we'll just have to wait for the PS4 to have a proper
Wipeout HD 3D running at 120fps with no graphical loss (PS3 visual quality with
anti-aliasing), I'm sure Sony could put such a game on PSN, I would buy it
for sure!

[ProblemSolver]

@aethernet: It always depends on how much you love a certain thing. Some people
played GT4 on three TVs (left, center, right) using three PS2's and three copies
of the game.

@Connavar: I think we aren't done on the PS3, yet. But I also think that all the
3-D stuff is at best a prototype of what to expect from Sony on the PS4 at full
scale. There is a lot of hate against Sony, granted, but they, at least, do
something in terms of technology. How often have they defined the frontier of
things that have become so common place? Many times. M$ does nothing, they just
copy all the sh!t. And I do believe that in 10 years from now 3-D TV is so
common place that you will be considered old-school watching movies in 2D. 3-D
isn't any news, like we all know. I played games in 3-D on a PC 17 years ago,
but it never took off on PC because non of the former giants wanted to take the
risk. And it is still a risk today to go that road, but with the PS3 in place
it's worth to go that way once more. Currently Sony is all on their own, again.
If it pays off then they will be remembered for that as well. All the latest
signs do look promising for 3-D, most people give a positive feedback after
having watched Avatar the movie. Personally, I'm all for 3-D. There is nothing
that can replace the spatiality of a particle flow viewed in 3-D!

[DrMannevond]

@Problemsolver : I would be very surprised if WO doesn't suffer in resolution and/or framerate if they convert it to 3D. I read an interview somewhere with the guys making Super Stardust (sorry, I can't remember where, but it's well worth hunting down. The studio is Housemarque from Finland), which runs at 60fps/1080p.
They had lots of trouble getting it to work in 3D, esp. with the framerate, and they had to drop the resolution to 720p and basically re-program the whole engine if memory serves me correct (probably not..:lol).
Or you can try the cheap-o-matic way and get some cheap video goggles and put a millisecond delay on one eye. Apparently it gives a 3D-ish effect (and a magnificent headache:dizzy), and you can get it RIGHT NOW!:eek

[Connavar]

Thanks for bringing this up, I searched and found the article:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/super-stardust-3d-720p120-confirmed-article
I don't mind a resolution drop for wipeout to 720p, if that means 3D!

[ProblemSolver]

Good find on the article!

720p is even quite good for displaying stuff in 3-D. Like the article says, lots of
optimizations can be done. And I thing this holds true for many other games
as well. What the article also reveals is that a simple 3-D firmware update
doesn't cut it.

What bothers me quite a bit is why Sony got along with such a weak graphics
accelerator, the RSX. I actually know most of the the things behind that, but up
to my point of view someone has done a mis-calculation (properly budget
related). Sony promised to deliver FullHD, at least, for most of the games on the
PS3. But this is obviously not the case. And I think the PS3 suffers from it quite a
lot.

The standard should have been 1080p@60fps with 4xAA (Anti-Aliasing) for most
of the games. There was once an article with Ken Kutaragi where he already
talked about 120fps and 240fps. I'm pretty sure that Sony had all the 3-D stuff in
mind long before.

So who was in charge for the RSX' specs? There is a story that Sony was talking
to Polyphony about the requirements to build a proper GT5 on the PS3. It is
believed that the blue-print of the PS3 was built around the requirements of GT5
and was later downgraded a lot. For example, it is known that Sony wanted to
cut the Cell processor down to only 6 SPEs, but Ken Kutaragi insisted on a Cell
with 8 SPEs. If you look at the latest GT5 videos, which are awesome btw, one
thing is for sure, the game lacks shadow-map resolution like hell. Almost every
bigger title lacks shadow-map resolution. There is just not enough memory
and fill-rate to hold and fill an 1080p screen for a more complex game using
good textures as well as good shadow-maps. :-

So you now have an FullHD TV at home to watch movies and play games
whatsoever, but unfortunately most of these games do only run in 720p. My
problem is not really the resolution, but it's just that an 720p image does not
map 1:1 on a 1080p screen. Almost all up-scalers are poor. And the
interpolation methods used (bilinear, most of the times) does not preserve
brightness. So your picture looks washed-out when scaled from 720p to 1080p
by a TV or by the PS3 itself. I really hate this. There exists better interpolation
methods, of course, but they do require more chip-logic while implemented in
hardware. Toshiba has now implemented their variant of the Cell processor into
their new so-called Cell-TVs. That means that they can now program a certain
interpolation method to be applied to the input-signal before displaying it on
the screen in software. There was a trade-show where Toshiba showed off the
Cell-TV doing realtime up-scaling + sharpening of an SD video signal. Since
than the Cell-TV is considered as the one producing the best SD image on a
FullHD TV. I hope those TVs are ready for mass production later this year, since
it will take us quite some time until 1080p is common place in either every
TV show or every game (PS4 comes to mind).

[MiguelX69]

Good thing sony is making their OS more forgiving on the ram... They have something like 90MB ocuppied by the OS, and they want something like 30MB. So it will give more space for those hard 2x60fps computations :P

[DividedXZero]

I stopped by a local Sony Style store and they were running a demo for their 3D TV's which included some WO Fury HD and some misc video clips etc.

I must say it was beyond words IMO, just and awesome enthralling experience especially for us wipeout fans.

Their 3D technology is much like that seen in recent 3D movies shown at the movies. Picture produces a 3D effect of "Depth" vs. "Pop-Out".

Interestingly enough, it was more detailed than just craft appearing separated from the track and creating a depth illusion, but the craft itself has its own levels of depth. I noticed that specifically with the Fury Qirex in which you could see a difference in depth from the ships cockpit and body.

Clip also included Mirage, Icaras, Harimau...some BR's and weapon usage...
Fortunately it was only a video clip and not a playable demo, since otherwise I probably would sit there all day play 3D WOHD, lol...

[Connavar]

Great, can't wait to buy a new HDTV! (and sell the one I own).
I also heard that Super Stardust HD was mindblowing, I wonder if Wipeout HD
looks any better, as in more realistic.

[ProblemSolver]

ZONE in 3-D. Can't wait! :dizzy

[MiguelX69]

ZONE in 3-D. Can't wait! :dizzy

Me neither.

[Sausehuhn]

Now imagine that with a 3D beamer :)

[NightArh]

There are rumours about new ps3 firmware with 3d video output support in June. Cant wait to try it out

[Sch@dows]

There are rumours about new ps3 firmware with 3d video output support in June. Cant wait to try it outdo you have a 3D ready TV screen ?

They're still not available in France and it's getting really frustrating since I don't have a HD TV, and games are more and more difficult to look without it (still beautyfull but not has much, and tiny texts are almost impossible to ready u_u)

[NightArh]

No new 3d Bravia TVs are still not aviable here... But one of them will be my next TV I want buy. But I know nothing about their health influence yet... I am feeling my eyes tired after 3d movie experience in the cinema

[Cyberio]

I think in Europe we will have in August the 3DTV, around 1.790€.
But recently i bought a FullHD TV so i will not buy any new TV in 10 years maybe.

[Sausehuhn]

Didn't they say that TVs with at least 120Hz will support 3D with 60 frames for each eye (at least for gaming)?

[il_mago_di_Doz]

Yes, but the 120Hz must be in input and in output.
Nowadays they are only in output, (the tv processor "create" the missing images interpolating the real ones) but the input is still 50/60 Hz.

[Sch@dows]

Some Plasma TV are already 3D Readyn but almost all LCD and LED TV aren't.

Apparently, The SAMSUNG UE46C8700 (LED - 117cm/46" - 200Hz - 3D Ready) will be available in April (in France) and will be sold around €2000 (already listed at €2008 shipping fees excluded on some sites).

The same model without 3D Ready, SAMSUNG UE46B8000 (still 200Hz) is listed at €1990.

Not bad !
I'm more encline to buy Samsung TV, but I will wait to see the differences between SONY and Samsung model.

EDIT : 3D TV is great, but what is the 3D-glasses prices ?
I read that Panasonic has already launched their 3D Ready TV in US with a Bundle (50" TV + pair of 3D glasses + 3D Ready BRD Player) at $2900, and it seems to be out of stock.

[Koleax]

The Samsung UN46C7000WF is available now in the US for $2340, and the 55" model for $3000.

The glasses are $150 for battery operated ones and $200 for rechargeable adult-sized. I don't know what the battery life is like, but the rechargeable ones are not as bulky and more comfortable to wear anyway. This Samsung model just went on display yesterday at Best Buy, so I will plan a visit tomorrow.

I'm still unsure because that model is edge-lit and will exhibit uniformity problems with very dark images. Even the more expensive local-dimming led-backlit models will not look as good was what's in front of me right now (a Sony XEL-1). Though I would like something larger than 11".

[love9sick]

What are the chances we are going to get another expansion in the future? I would really love that. The 3D thing sounds nice but There isn't a single TV that supports 120Hz+ in my house hold yet.

[Sch@dows]

With sony liverpool having been disbanded, I don't think we will see another expansion soon (and maybe neither another wipeout on ps3)

[blackwiggle]

Sony shows Wipeout HD/FURY as one of the games in it's current ad for 3D TV , and since Wipeout has already been demonstrated at previous E3's/CES shows in 3D,[ pretty much the only game Sony has shown 3D wise as far as I know] it could be assumed that some form of 3D version of Wipeout is already in the can.
How far advanced it was/is, pre and post the SL redundancies is what really matters.
How Sony intend to implement 3D game playback via the system 3D software update will be the determining factor.
I'm not expecting that much of a take up regardless of how good it is after reading many posts around the web.
It seems most are of the opinion that this 1st generation of consumer home 3D will be a flop,mainly due to the need to wear glasses,and secondly that if watching a sporting event in 3D, the viewer would most likely find themselves in the situation where they would be having to cycle through wearing/removing the glasses as the game stops and none 3D ad's come on screen,and also when one views something other than the screen in the room.

[Sch@dows]

Sony shows Wipeout HD/FURY as one of the games in it's current ad for 3D TV , and since Wipeout has already been demonstrated at previous E3's/CES shows in 3D,[ pretty much the only game Sony has shown 3D wise as far as I know] it could be assumed that some form of 3D version of Wipeout is already in the can.Well, Sony has also shown GT5 Prologue (and GT5 demos), MotorStorm 2, and Killzone 2 (at least those are the ones I saw videos and screenshots from.


It seems most are of the opinion that this 1st generation of consumer home 3D will be a flop,mainly due to the need to wear glasses,and secondly that if watching a sporting event in 3D, the viewer would most likely find themselves in the situation where they would be having to cycle through wearing/removing the glasses as the game stops and none 3D ad's come on screen,and also when one views something other than the screen in the room.
I don't think there will be a need to remove glasses just for that, because as i've seen on the Samsung UE46C7700, it can emulate 3D from a 2D source (even if it is less impressive than 3d sources).
But the test point out one important drawback, the decreased luminosity due to the glasses.

Also, the 3D technology without glasses is far from being ready (and probably will never be). User must be right in front of the screen (at the center) and at a pre-defined distance otherwise, right-left images will overlap. Even if the technology, one day, use motion tracking to adapt to where the user is, it will still prevent 2 user to look at the TV at the same time.

[Connavar]

The decrease of luminosity is not really an issue as you can compensate for it.

I'd say, don't buy 3d TVs right now, wait for the games to be released first,
by then, prices will go down and most of the quirks and irks will have been fixed.

[Sch@dows]

Of course I won't buy it until it is useful (probably in june when the new firmware will be available).

from the tests I've read, luminosity IS a problem. Even if you try to compensate for it, by tuning the settings of the TV, you can't achieve the same luminosity with glasses put on. You have to look a the TV in a dark environment to really compensate for it.

Some tests have also pointed out that some glasses aren't perfectly synchrinized with the screen leaving an afterimage.

[DrMannevond]

It's official : http://ps3.ign.com/articles/108/1081647p1.html

Here's a snippet from the article :

Here is the list of games getting 3D updates so far, according to the Qore video:

Gran Turismo 5
Killzone 2
LittleBigPlanet
WipEout Fury
Super Stardust HD
Invincible Tiger: The Legend of Han

[yeldar2097]

****ing yes! All good ones ^_^

[Sch@dows]

not bad but ... when will GT5 be released ? >_<

[SaturnReturn]

WipEout HD Fury


Fixed. Stupid IGN, leaving out the 'HD'. That's almost as bad as rating Prince of Persia 9.4/10. It's just one thing after another with that site.:mad:

Has everyone noted the update in that article? I'm not sure I follow entirely but it seems to indicate that this is no official list, but that people have inferred this as a list from demo footage included in a video somewhere. Does that sound right?

[blackwiggle]

I think your correct about where they are getting their info from.
It seems that it's come from the same Sony 3D TV promo video, showing which games [ever so brief snippets] that will supposedly get the 3D treatment .

The video is viewable in one of the 2 links in this post I made earlier in the other 3D thread.

http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=163831&postcount=23

[ProblemSolver]

Monty Mole over from NeoGAF got a chance to play WipEout HD in 3-D.
Don't expect too much.




Played Wipeout HD in 3D today, but...

So, at The Gadget Show Live today I was lucky enough to play Wipeout HD in 3D. I absolutely love the game, so I was pretty excited as you can imagine.

The good news

As expected with any game in 3D, it's in perfect 3D. If you've used Nvidia's solution, you'll know what to expect. Sony's 3DTV worked perfectly.

The bad news

No, not just the cliched having to wear glasses. But 30fps. Yes, thirty ****ing frames per second. This isn't the Wipeout HD I love. 3D or not.

Conclusion

One step forward, two steps back. I understand why 3D theoretically takes twice the graphics processing power, but in cases like this, I really wonder what the point is. I'd take 60fps 2D Wipeout HD over 30fps 3D Wipeout HD (with 30% colour reduction)... any day.

3D gaming? Not quite the future just yet IMO. On existing consoles it is simply going to mean 3D at the expense of graphics or framerate degradation: I'm not signing up for that.

EDIT: Apologies if this sounds a little bloggy. I'll stop ranting now o_O

[Ref (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=20693309&posted=1#post20693309)]

[Connavar]

It makes no sense releasing the game at 30fps, I'm still convinced it will be 60fps
when released. Maybe he played WOHD with a quick and dirty 3d patch,
and maybe in 1080p even!

[ProblemSolver]

Personally, I think that the 3-D stuff is pretty cool, but showing WipEout HD in
30fps harms the game quite a lot. But we can hope for a patch (can we?) that
will enable 60fps in 3-D at a given resolution with some decrease in the amount
of detail. That should be possible. The current presentation is just a quick 'n
dirty solution to actually show the effect.

The base should always be 60fps, at least! They should (:nod) downgrade
the amount of detail and effects until the game can run in 1080p at 120fps
(2x60fps in 3-D). An in-game switch between a low and high detail version
for 3-D could be an option. I mean, there are people out there that can't
tell difference between 30fps and 60fps. xD

[blackwiggle]

They have modified the software for the new TV's quite a bit since CES 2010 to include user modification of the actual 3D effect , as not all people see it the same.
Since Samsung & Sony source their screens from the same factory I would suspect a similar end product.

See link for review of the new Samsung.
http://www.avguide.com/review/samsung-8000-series-lcdled-3d-tv-tpv-88?src=Playback

[Aeroracer]

i think 3d would make cornering much more easy.
how much are these 3d tv's anyway.

[blackwiggle]

About 10-15% more than your premium range LCD screens, depends how many pairs of glasses are supplied with the TV, if any, some have them, others you buy separately.
It also depends if the TV has the software that converts standard 2D into 3D on the fly, those are the sets that are the most expensive atm.

[Haywire_Guy]

With the free PS3 bundle of the 3DHDTV's, but comes with a heap of other games.

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/04/15/sonys-3d-gaming-line-up-confirmed/

[Colin Berry]

It was nice when I played it in 3D but it was a long time ago, probably 12months+

It would have been cool to have the opportunity to do something special / new for a 3D wipeout but it wasnt to be, having not seen it since last summer I've no idea how its progressed technically but I have faith it will be enjoyed by fans and more than a novelty, I just wish we could have done a proper wipeout 3d, for me that was the only thing left to really explore with wipeout, handheld had been done (and I think done well) and then we'd brought it back to the big screen, where if I'm honest, it truly belongs.

who knows what will come in the future, be interesting to see the up date later in the summer though

[Koleax]

What I did not expect regarding 3D was the way the experience broke down whenever it involved fast moving objects in the foreground. If a ball comes hurtling past you on an arc, its motion will appear smoother the deeper it is in the field of vision, as its position on the image will remain relatively the same between frames. However, as it moves the closer, the differences between frames will be that much more dramatic, where the ball is in one part of the image on one frame and then suddenly in a different part on the very next.

In 2D this isn't much of a problem, but the spatial mind tends to care a lot about fast moving objects that are close to the face, it being critical for survival. I can't imagine the Wipeout 3D experience being very immersive in Eliminator or Detonator and to some extent single race. TT, SL, and Zone will probably be the most immersive.

I just don't understand why we have to wait all the way until the summer.

[blackwiggle]

I got an email from Sony Aus last week asking if I wanted to make a booking for next week a hands on pre-launch demonstration of the new 3D stuff.
The only place in Australia where they are setting this up is at the big Sydney city Sony centre , which luckily is within walking distance from my place.

I wasn't going to bother, then I realized that if I don't take the opportunity now,then the chances of getting a decent demo in July when the general public will have access to them is going to be pretty slim.

I'll do it early next week and let you know what they are like,plus some definite prices.

[jan709]

Too bad i'll never enjoy 3D. I have an eye condition that also prevents me from using these red and blue colorfilter glasses.

Sad thing is i realised this after i bought a ticket to Avatar. :frown:

[Sch@dows]

I tough anagraphic 3-D (with different colors on each glass) didn't exist anymore ? where in the world are you living to see Avatar that way ??
Stereoscopic 3-D (mostly the "passive" way in theater unlike the "active" one on TV) is the standard now and should not prevent people who are suffering from daltonism to enjoy 3-D (unless you're suffering from something else).

[blackwiggle]

I was just talking to somebody at the Aus PS forum who I just found out happens to work at the Sony store where I'm booked in for a demo of the 3D TV's tomorrow.

He said that Wipeout HD 3D is the only playable demo they have atm, and that it is also playable on a standard ,none 3D TV.
It just shows one of the two 3D screens [ either the left or right ] when set up that way.
I'm not sure if Wipeout HD will be a separate download or a patch to the existing HD, they just arrived at work and a pre loaded PS3 was there for the demos, So ??? on that.
He said it's incredibly good fun and really takes it to another level.....guess I'll see tomorrow.

From what I've been lead to believe, there is going to be a free playable demo of 1 HD track in 3D, made available from PStore to download.

I guess if you downloaded it and took your PS3 to a store to hook up to a 3D TV you could check how things are first hand.
I somehow doubt that you would get a demo any other way, unless at a Sony centre.
I think most 3D store displays will be of the 3D demo loop type, at least at first.

[jan709]

I tough anagraphic 3-D (with different colors on each glass) didn't exist anymore ? where in the world are you living to see Avatar that way ??
Stereoscopic 3-D (mostly the "passive" way in theater unlike the "active" one on TV) is the standard now and should not prevent people who are suffering from daltonism to enjoy 3-D (unless you're suffering from something else).

I didnt see avatar with the blue-red glasses, it was an example to show my eyes can't work together like that which is also required to see the modern 3D.

[KIGO1987]

I was just talking to somebody at the Aus PS forum who I just found out happens to work at the Sony store where I'm booked in for a demo of the 3D TV's tomorrow.
......
I think most 3D store displays will be of the 3D demo loop type, at least at first.

I might have a way getting a display model PS3 with the WOHD 3D Demo in it.

Going to make a few phone calls tomorrow, if you know what i mean BW ;)

[blackwiggle]

Well I've just got back from what I could only describe as a mixed bag of a demo with the new top of the line Sony LX9000 3D TV.

Naturally it takes a few moments for you eyes to adjust to 3D when it's turned on, and the majority of the first round of demos were shown first in 2D then in 3D.

Sony's polarized/LCD shutter glasses didn't seem to have as much light loss as has been reported, I kept slipping them on/off at the demos start to check this and it was minimal, they did give a slight bronze colour cast to the picture,[ I know you could fix this by adding more Blue/magenta in the TV's settings to get everything back to 6500k ] but unless you a stickler for truly correct colour it doesn't impede you enjoyment.
They seemed rather heavy in your hand [guessing about 60g] but felt fine once worn, even if you wear specs like me, they are the wrap around type, so light from anywhere other than ahead if filtered out.
I'm not so sure if sweat/fog build up if worn in a hot room might be a problem as I didn't have them on long enough,but I have a small feeling it might.

What the games looked like:
Well they showed Motostorm Pacific Rift 3D first , it was pretty cool for the majority of it, but in certain sections it was if the 3D effect lost tracking [hard to explain ] and your eyes received a confused jumble of partial 2D/3D at the same time.
The same effect happened when you changed seating positions while viewing 3D [Yes I tried that as well ;) ]
Overall it was a worthy advancement for that game, I still wouldn't buy it though .:)

Wipeout HD
Well the promised playable demo would of happened if they hadn't taken the only PS3 in the country with it installed to an in house Sony event, I was told to return at another date when this PS3 returns.:frown::-
They did have another PS3 with a none playable version so that's what I'm describing .
If you play Wipeout HD in close or far view your going to love the 3D version.
Strangely although HD was supposedly the only one made into a 3D version the demo showed some FURY tracks in 3D , go figure.
Watching craft BR in 3D is great , some tracks look better than others in 3D.
Generally the darker ones are the best, Vineta K F= good, Sebenco F= The best , Metropia F= good., the under-laying humps & bumps of the tracks really stand out and look good, for the most part.
Opposing craft were a revelation in 3D and put a whole new perspective on HD, they did sort of have a bit of a paper model look about them but I think that had more to do with the TV's set up [contrast set too high]more than anything else.
Mines sort of stuck out more, but they flashed by so quick I didn't get a real good look, and green has never been and easy colour to focus on.

I occasionally saw what I would describe as a concertina of planes/levels effect,[Metropia] where depth would suddenly disappear back into the flat front plane , then go back to 3D , it depended on the track and where you were on it.
It only happened briefly, usually when the crafts nose was pointing up after a jump or a weapon hit

But the jump/chicane on Ubermall F made me almost lose my breakfast.
Oh brother, it was a real close thing too.
I'm not sure what cause that, and it's making me queasy just thinking about it.

I could bore you senseless [if I haven't already :rolleyes: ] with more stuff .

But mainly
1] I really pressed the Sony guy, and he was adamant that the PS3 will do 3D at 1080p when the software update comes out.
2] The TV processing of 2D material into 3D "On the Fly" still needs work,the processed version is not as smooth, seems jerky [suspect different screen refresh rate the cause] and there are other focus abnormalities when in 3D.

YEE HAA!
I just got this message from my mate so I'm back into the city to PLAY HD 3D!!
Hay dude,
Sorry I wasnt around when you went in for your demo today. If you around the city come after the
demonstrations finish (4pm) and ask for me (Jonathan), if im not too flat out ill pop the actual playable level on for you.
I'm there normally Monday -Saturday, but hay everyone needs a few days off now and again.

[Koleax]

but in certain sections it was if the 3D effect lost tracking [hard to explain ] and your eyes received a confused jumble of partial 2D/3D at the same time.
The same effect happened when you changed seating positions while viewing 3D [Yes I tried that as well ;)
I think I know what you mean. Did it seem to happen more with foreground objects?

[blackwiggle]

It was if the race track foreground, other craft [middle ground] , and background were all on separate postcards tiered/lined up front to back momentarily.
Then went back to being a cohesive 3D whole.
It lasted maybe a second when it happened.

The more I think what might of been the cause, the more I think it might of been the LCD shutter of the glasses out of sync with the processing of the screen, I can't be sure.
It did it when I moved chairs as well, so maybe the glasses/screen must sync on the basis of distance from each other.

I had given some thought to what I wanted to test out at this demo, as in possible shortfalls of the technology that I've read about elsewhere, so I did give things a good workout :redface: :lol

I'm going back on Wednesday for round two, as there was a stuff up with communications ,I'd missed a further message from my mate saying he would have to defer till then :paperbag

[KIGO1987]

Next question,

Do you have any photos, or recording when you went to the function?

[blackwiggle]

No, as there didn't seem any point taking a picture of a 3D display , it would just look like a really badly taken photo.
Like a double exposure of whatever image was on the screen.

I've had my suspicions with this Sony LX9000,and after reading a press release just now, and with what happened today, they have pretty much been confirmed

When it was first released at CES 2010 it never had 2D to 3D processing, 3 months later now it does, but this hasn't been advertised ,and I didn't know it had it either till today.
I just asked to see it working at the demo after assuming that it now had it.

The thing is that the Samsung sets are made at the same factory as the Sony's.
The Samsung just got this 2D to 3D processing as well, but at least they have been promoting it.
I'm starting to wonder exactly what the difference between the two will be and just how much of a premium Sony will inevitably ask over the Samsung.

They are basically the same TV.
And Sony must know that the consumer knows, even they can't be that dumb in misreading the buying public by trying to charge a premium for what is a re-badged TV.
On second thoughts after the PSP GO! & Sony music online ...maybe they are that dumb.

This will be interesting.

[blackwiggle]

I had a my first hands on experience with a playable demo of HD 3D a few hours ago.
Both the special de-bit [whatever that is] PS3 & Sony LX9000 3D TV had been bought over Japan.
I found out that the special PS3 had system software 3.21, not the new 3.30 that came out yesterday that is for playing 3D games.
If this had any bearing on how HD 3D played or looked would be a guess by me.

The playable demo only had Racebox usable, with Venom & Flash speeds of Vineta K.
This looked quite a bit different than the none playable 3D demo I saw earlier in the week.
It seemed far less refined and there were numerous strange artifacts plus a few strange handling problems happening while racing.
I wouldn't be surprised if this was the same playable demo seen at E3 almost 2 years ago.
Well I hope that's the case because I was a bit disappointed TBH.:|

I was playing in Cockpit view and the HUD zoom effect was switched on.
Having the HUD effect on might of been the overriding factor on what made playing the 3D demo a bit of a disappointment in retrospect, stuff happens.

So that being the case I think it would be unfair to comment on HD 3D until a few things change.
1]It's a known release version.
2] It's installed on a normal PS3 that has the optimized for 3D gaming, 3.30 or later system software.
3] It's shown on a production model 3D screen.

If it's any consolation Super Stardust HD 3D left me feeling the same.:paperbag

[Golgofier]

Interesting article on DigitalFoundry about making the PS3 go 3D:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-making-of-ps3-3d-article

Talking specifically about Wipeout HD, 1080p at 60fps just isn't gonna happen :(

"The 3D version of WipEout HD is locked to 720p, but due to geometry issues, frame-rate is halved to 30FPS."

[Connavar]

Lazy port then :(
Looks like we'll have to wait for the PS4 to enjoy a wipeout 3D at 60fps.

[Sch@dows]

I knew the game would not retain 1080p, but i hoped that it could still be played at 60fps.
Useless ...

[blackwiggle]

I think it was a bad combination of factors that lead to me being underwhelmed.

As has been reported elsewhere in the Xpand league thread by z1r0rEi
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7144&page=10
he has found playing the standard version of wipeout HD or other games on his newly acquired LED TV unbearable, to such an extent that he has given up playing all together.

Yesterday was my first trial of playing wipeout of any kind on a LED TV.
So maybe I would find myself agreeing with z1r0ri even if it was a normal version of wipeout HD, I just don't know.

When you also factor in it was in 3D, it's frame rate had been dropped because of that, the PS3 wasn't running the 3.30 software [difference ?], the demo itself could of been anything up to 2years old and the 3D LED TV was a preproduction model.
You have to give the benefit of the doubt.
I don't know exactly what to comment on as any 1 of 4 variables could of made a major difference to how the game played & looked.

That might be why Sony are not allowing people to try these playable demos.
It was only because I knew somebody at Sony that I got a try , and that was after hours.
I was told to expect things to look and play better when all this stuff is in it's final release ready state.

[ProblemSolver]

Interesting article on DigitalFoundry about making the PS3 go 3D:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-making-of-ps3-3d-article

Talking specifically about Wipeout HD, 1080p at 60fps just isn't gonna happen :(

"The 3D version of WipEout HD is locked to 720p, but due to geometry issues, frame-rate is halved to 30FPS."
720p@30fps in 3-D is a major reduction in quality for WipEout HD. I would
expect 720p@60fps for 3-D, at least. Btw; 1080p@60fps in 3-D isn't possible
via HDMI 1.4 due to bandwidth limitation.

What bothers me quite a bit is that the PS3 really lacks performance in the
graphics department. If Sony knew that they would go 3-D then why had
they decided to go with such a weak graphics accelerator, i.e. the RSX? Cost
is a major factor, of course, but up to my point of view Sony has made a bad
decision the day they decided to buy an off-the-shelf graphics accelerator
from Nvidia back in 2006.

Sony promised 1080p@60fps at E3 2005 as the standard for PS3. I think
they really wanted to go for it, but something bad happened along the way.

Whatever.

The only thing I can see, while looking at all the 3-D stuff, is, that all this
will lead us to a possible PS4 much faster. Not only that the RSX isn't able
to deliver 1080p@60fps for most games, it now also hinters progress into
3-D which will become a big market this time around, I guess.

Instead of pushing new standards like for example QuadHD (3840 x 2160)
or even UHDV (7680 x 4320), they (Sony et. al.) should consider utilizing
the current technology at hand much better for the next-gen consoles. For
example, for a possibe PS4 I would be very please if we could have
1080p@60fps in 3-D, 16xMSAA, and 1GB of video memory. Put two
bandwidth-enhanced Cell processors into the mix and 4GB of main memory
and everything is fine.

[Dan Locke]

I would expect 720p@60fps for 3-D, at least.
Really? It still has to render everything twice; the lower resolution wouldn't change that.

[ProblemSolver]

Sure.

Rendering isn't teh problem for WipEout HD. You have to note that we go
down from 1080p to 720p. Btw; 1080p > 2x720p, pixelwise. It seems like that
the problem lies within the geometry, i.e. memory bandwidth. Doubling the
frame rate cuts the bandwidth in halve with respect to a frame. That means
that the current code isn't able to deliver the same amount of geometry
within halve the time of a single frame displayed at 60fps. Possibly WipEout
HD has maxed out the (aggregative) bandwidth of the PS3. In this case only a
reduction in geometry can solve the problem. I think the game can be
optimized a little bit further, but I don't believe that they will be able to
optimize the code such that the same amount of geometry can be transfered in
halve the time, i.e. 1/120ms. If this would be possible, then one can argue
why they have wasted so many resources prior to the 3-D version, leaving as
with a game that shutters a bit on the Fury tracks. Personally, I don't
think that SL has wasted any bandwidth. The guys at SL know (knew) their
stuff and that's why we can enjoy the game in 1080p@60fps in all its glory.

SSHD does run in 720p@60fps in 3-D, but SSHD has almost no geometry when
compared to WipEout HD.

And if you ask me, I would vote for a reduction in geometry (possibly realized
as an in-game option) to be able to play WipEout HD at 720p@60fps in 3-D.

30fps? No thx.

[Connavar]

ProblemSolver, you're wrong about HDMI 1.3/1.4 bandwidth limitation.
I don't know why everyone is saying this without using facts:

1) Both HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 are limited to 8.16Gbps (for video)

2) HDMI 1.3 can do 2560×1600p75 in 24bit, which is 23% more than
a 1920x1080p120 in 24bit would need.

[amplificated]

PS never said anything about HDMI

The PS3 has memory bandwidth issues, and that's the bottleneck being referred to I believe.

[Frances_Penfold]

Lazy port then :(


Maybe, but that's not what I am interpreting from these articles-- sounds like they can only squeeze so much out of the PS3.

Too bad that WOHD needs the 60 FPS for gameplay. It's fun to have the game playable in 3D but for now, it seems mostly to be a tech-demo :frown:

[yeldar2097]

I saw the 3D showcase thingy a couple days ago...guessing it's the really old one that everyone has seen but it was interesting nonetheless.

@bw: I now know what you mean about the motorstorm temporary non 3D-ness, dead annoying.
Saw LBP, SSHD, KZ2 and WOHD as well: all very intriguing but not exactly breathtaking. Actually I found SSHD made me go cross-eyed during the "Stage Clear" but where the ship pops out of the screen at you. Normally this would be fine but all I got as a result was the rims of the glasses blocking my view :brickwall
KZ2 was just following a bullet (obs not real time) so it was a bit pointless.
LBP seemed pretty much the same to me, just a bit more juddery.
WOHD was the same old bullshit autopilot venom vineta k no barrel rolls thingy never mind. I quite liked how the HUD worked, but it was following External Close which is what I reckon it was tailored to. Overall it all looks very 'paper model in front of a blue screen' to me.

I know this demo reel is very old (which would explain why everything looked sub SD) so it's a little (massively) rough around the edges. This still leaves me wondering why Sony are showing this particular set of clips in their stores - It makes it look like a half-arsed attempt at converting games to 3D in order to generate a bit of hype and excitement...which is exactly what it is.

Personally I think they should stick to showing 3D TV clips instead, those were much more enjoyable to watch. 3D footie was lovely :rock

[ProblemSolver]

@Connavar: What you are referring to is a specification written on paper
but says nothing about whether this bandwidth can actually be attained, which
was part of my thinking in saying that 1080p@60fps in 3-D isn't possible due
to bandwidth limitation, because you have to ask yourself whether the PS3's
HDMI 1.3 chip is capable of delivering such a (physical) bandwidth. And up
to its specification, it isn't. The HDMI chip inside the PS3 does support
1080p@60Hz and 720p/1080i@120Hz at best. If the chip would be capable of
outputting 1080p@120Hz (or be able to deliver the bandwidth needed to
transmit a 2x1080p data stream at 60Hz) there would be no need to hide such
a feature from its specification. That is to say, the HDMI 1.3 chip inside
the PS3 can't support the bandwidth needed for 1080p@120Hz.

Further, no HDMI chip in existence, whether used as a transmitter or receiver,
supports 1080p@120Hz, at the moment. The clock-frequency of current HDMI
chips is about 225MHz. Remember; bandwidth does depend on time, on the
clock-frequency. About 300MHz are needed (given the HDMI chip inside the PS3)
to get the necessary bandwidth to output 1080p@120Hz.

225MHz is the current standard for most HDMI chips implementing HDMI 1.3 or
1.4. Well, I think there was / is a reason why 1080p@60Hz in 3-D isn't a
mentadory format for HDMI 1.4.

If the PS3 would be able to output a 1080p@120Hz signal, then I would assume
that Sony's PR machinery would have used that for advertising 3-D, in saying
that some games can also run in 1080p@60fps in 3-D.

I bet $10 that the PS3 isn't capable of outputting 1080p@60fps in 3-D. Well,
I hope to be wrong on all of this, but I currently can't see how the PS3 would
be able to do so. Hopefully someone can prove me wrong.

[Connavar]

Frances_Penfold: reading the article, it felt like they just lowered some details
and halved the resolution and framerate and voila! The guy said himself
that porting Wipeout to 3D was relatively easy and straightforward.

I'm sure Wipeout could run at 120fps in 720p, apparently the geometry is the
only bottleneck preventing it from happening ... guess what needs to be done
then? Using the SPUs, those chips are perfectly capable of handling geometries.
However it's super hard to program for, but Naughty Dog (for exampled)
managed to put a lot of geometries calculations on the SPUs.

And EVEN if the PS3 was maximized (but I don't believe it 1 second), then
how about reducing the geometry, in order to achive the 720p@120fps, which
would look a lot better ... so it boils down to the amount of work necessary
to have a proper WO3D, and apparently they didn't want to invest enough
resources on it => lazy port.

PS: Okay, damn normally they were supposed to use 340MHz, but only use
225 then ... but I'd like to see the official frequency for the PS3 transmitter.

[ProblemSolver]

... I'm sure Wipeout could run at 120fps in 720p, apparently the geometry is the
only bottleneck preventing it from happening ... guess what needs to be done
then? Using the SPUs, those chips are perfectly capable of handling geometries.
However it's super hard to program for, but Naughty Dog (for exampled)
managed to put a lot of geometries calculations on the SPUs. ...
The SPEs are capable of handling geometries just fine but this serves nothing
if WipEout HD is already IO bounded, which seems to be the case after reading
the article.



PS: Okay, damn normally they were supposed to use 340MHz, but only use
225 then ... but I'd like to see the official frequency for the PS3 transmitter.

All the fat PS3s are using an Silicon Image VastLane SiI9132 transmitter
(SiI9132CBU) which isn't able to decode DTS-HD MA. Initially, Sony wanted
to go with a dual HDMI ported SiI9133 transmitter, but decided against it.
The interesting fact here is that the SiI9134, which was available at the
same time, supports DTS-HD MA unlike the SiI9132. [Ref (http://ir.siliconimage.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?releaseid=207419)]

I've found no official specification of the SiI9132 transmitter. This chip was
specifically built for game consoles and as such might be under NDA by Sony.

However, Silicon Image says that the SiI9132 is equal to the SiI9134 in terms
of video processing, that is to say; both have the same maximal resolution
of 1080p, the same maximal color depth of 36 bits/pixel, and the same
maximum bandwidth of 6.75 Gbps. [Ref (http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/SIMG/123686520x0x90326/026FC997-44F3-46C8-A876-61C76E9A7DA4/2006%2010k%20filing.pdf)]

From Silicon Image website we can read off the specification of the SiI9134
transmitter (http://www.siliconimage.com/products/product.aspx?pid=102), which is just an DTS-HD MA enhanced version of the Sil9132.

Let us consider the bandwidth again.
For a 24bit RGB signal, the required HDMI bandwidth computes as follows;
Bandwidth in Gbps = (resH+blankH)*(resV+blankV)*24bit*Hz*10/8.

The HDMI 1.4 specification provides specific timing requirements for the
horizontal blanking interval and vertical blanking interval which amounts to
280 pixel for the horizontal blanking interval and 50 pixels for the vertical
blanking interval for a resolution of 1920x1080@60Hz. The factor 10/8
amounts for the conversion of an 8bit color value to 10bit.

We have,

(1920[resH]+280[blankH])*(1080[resV]+50[blankV])*24[bit]*60[Hz]*10/8

~= 4.47 Gbps.

Hence, a 1080p@120fps signal would require a bandwidth of ~ 8.94 Gbps.

And since the bandwidth of the PS3's HDMI transmitter is limited to 6.75 Gbps,
it is rather unlikely that we will see 1080p@60fps in 3-D coming out of a PS3.

[Dan Locke]

It seems like that the problem lies within the geometry, i.e. memory bandwidth. Doubling the frame rate cuts the bandwidth in halve with respect to a frame. That means that the current code isn't able to deliver the same amount of geometry within halve the time of a single frame displayed at 60fps. Possibly WipEout HD has maxed out the (aggregative) bandwidth of the PS3. In this case only a reduction in geometry can solve the problem.
That's exactly what I said. It has to render twice as many polygons at a time. Or am I misusing the word "render"?

[blackwiggle]

YELDER
Anything you saw at that Sony demo apart from WOHD , SSHD and Motostorm would of been using the TV's 2D to 3D processing.
I agree, it does seem that they have rushed this out and the whole thing is half arsed.
I bet that demo you saw was using a PS3 that also didn't have the latest 3D gaming optimized 3.30 software that came out on Friday.
I'm just hoping it will all look better when Sony start showing 3D on a normal, everyday PS3 with the 3.30 SS and the proper "Latest" 3D versions of the games.
As it is, you don't really know if this is as good as it's going to get for 1st generation 3D .
If it is I'll give it a miss.

Samsung are showing a show reel loop of a Soccer match & a sprint race.
Panasonic are showing both a clip of the movie and Xbox version of AVATAR.
Neither will show anything else if asked.

The Samsung show reel is supplied by Sony - go figure
And the AVATAR movie clip was specially produced version to be shown on those Panasonic screens.

They are all saying wait till 3D Bluray arrives, that will be the best.
I somehow doubt it.
All 3D movies are shot for a specific screen size [cinema], it is decided before shooting begins.
So you are going to have a basic mismatch from the start with the smaller home screen,it's a distance thing, it won't be unless you are watching it through a home 3D PJ with a much larger screen that things will be looking OK .

All 3 manufacturers seem to be aiming for a different area of the 3D market , but all agree that it will be 3D gamers that will most likely lead the up take.

SONY if aiming at mostly Gaming with 3D Bluray playback secondary.

SAMSUNG is going for the sports watcher and hoping on 3D broadcasts, with 2D to 3D processing as back up.

PANASONIC is aiming for the 3D Bluray market, it bought Pioneers old plasma factory and the patents to the "KURO" technology, as well as picking up 250 of it's high tech staff.

[ProblemSolver]

@DL: It has to render twice the amount of polygons, but this doesn't seem to
be the problem. Rendering a polygon (applying shaders and stuff) is different
from processing geometry as such. To render the second set of polygons you
have to go through all the geometric transformation again, streaming all the
geometry to the SPEs and doing various calculations. WOHD's rendering stage
may easily render two different 720p images, but may not be able to process
the geometric data in time for each 720p image. The reason I wrote; "I would
expect 720p@60fps for 3-D, at least.", was written with WipEout HD in mind.
Not every game needs 60fps in 3-D. But it's pretty ridiculous to play WipEout
in 30fps in anyD.


... So you are going to have a basic mismatch from the start with the smaller home screen ... All 3 manufacturers seem to be aiming for a different area of the 3D market ...
Interesting post. I'm interested in how this will turn out in the end.

[KIGO1987]

Checked out the 3D TV range at Harvey's on Saturday.

Sony tv looks quite good actually, both in picture and as well as physical display. Im looking to buy one maybe later on in the year. Whats the best brand out there atm for 3D tvs?

[Dan Locke]

@DL: It has to render twice the amount of polygons, but this doesn't seem to be the problem. Rendering a polygon (applying shaders and stuff) is different from processing geometry as such.
Ah. I had assumed that processing the geometry and then displaying the image (along with any shader effects) fell under the umbrella of "rendering". Thanks for clearing that up.


Not every game needs 60fps in 3-D. But it's pretty ridiculous to play WipEout
in 30fps in anyD.
As someone who has played the splitscreen mode numerous times with friends, I wholeheartedly agree with you. If they had just simplified the graphics (like in EVERY OTHER SPLIT-SCREEN GAME EVER, including Wipeout 64 and Wipeout 3), that wouldn't have been a problem.

[SaturnReturn]

Agree - I've tried split screen and I just feel completely disconnected from what's happening on the screen.

[blackwiggle]

All the brands of 3D TV are different, all have their pros & cons apart from bells & whistles.

PANASONIC - PROS - plasma so it should be cheaper , Deepest black level as it's basically a Pioneer KURO [best flat screens ever made]
CONS - Picture Flicker , Plasmas run hotter than LCD/LED, possible screen burn-in if playing games a lot.

SAMSUNG [7000 & 6000 series] - PROS - Cheaper than Sony , choice of Plasma or LCD/LED in their range.[wait for the 8000 series LCD/LED 3D sets]
CONS- Use edge lighting instead of back lighting, some picture ghosting,uses polarizing glasses so more light loss, glasses feel flimsy & cheap, same cons as Panasonic for Plasma versions

SONY - PROS - HX series [best picture in Sony range] can be bought as 2D TV then add glasses & receiver later for 3D, uses LCD shutter glasses so light loss minimal.
CONS- Expensive , limited sizes, 2D to 3D processing seems like an afterthought.

There's a lot of other differences, but those are the most basic.

You would want to make sure that any 3D TV you might consider buying was able to have it's 3D processing software up-datable,otherwise your set will be out of date before you get it out of the box.
The SAMSUNG 8000 series has had a BIG software update and it's only been out 2 months and is reported to of made a huge difference.

[dobyblue]

The thing is that the Samsung sets are made at the same factory as the Sony's.

It's way more convuluted than that - Sony outsources several items to NEC, Sharp, Taiwan, etc., as does Samsung.

Sharp and Samsung are the biggest LCD panel manufacturers.

Sharp make their own panels and source some from China. Samsung makes most of the panels that go into Sony's TV's in a factory in Korea that Sony now has shares in. Sony also outsources some of their 40" panels from AU Optics, which is owned by BenQ and Acer. Oddly enough BenQ outsources a number of their panels from Lite-On.

Samsung outsources some of their panels from Taiwan, as does Toshiba.

Sharp and Sony also reached a new agreement in 2008 to share panel duties - http://www.gadgetell.com/tech/comment/sony-sharp-form-alliance-on-lcd-panels/

LG buys a number of their panels from Sharp.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/03/13/lg_to_buy_lcd_panels_from_sharp/

This goes on and on. Pioneer were going to source their 10G panels for their plasma's from Panasonic, as Hitachi did for their most recent plasma sets.

Of course you have to keep in mind that the electronics that go inside are from the individual electronics companies where the big names are concerned. Sharp Aquos TV's use Aquos technology, Sony's Bravia's include Sony's own motionflow/blahblahblah chips, etc., etc.


ProblemSolver, you're wrong about HDMI 1.3/1.4 bandwidth limitation.
I don't know why everyone is saying this without using facts:

1) Both HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 are limited to 8.16Gbps (for video)

2) HDMI 1.3 can do 2560×1600p75 in 24bit, which is 23% more than
a 1920x1080p120 in 24bit would need.

Maximum audio bandwith currently supported by any media on the market is 27.648 Mbps and maximum HDMI bandwidth is 10.2 Gbps. If bandwidth refers to data, why do you suggest the video is limited to 8.16 Gbps?


Further, no HDMI chip in existence, whether used as a transmitter or receiver, supports 1080p@120Hz, at the moment.

I'm pretty sure the new Panasonic Blu-ray player outputs 1080p120 (2 x 1080p60). I don't know why they didn't implement the 3D as 1080p48 given that it is 2 1080p24 streams on the disc, hopefully next year...or maybe 3:2 judder isn't as apparent in 3D?


PANASONIC is aiming for the 3D Bluray market, it bought Pioneers old plasma factory and the patents to the "KURO" technology, as well as picking up 250 of it's high tech staff.

Do you have a link to that NEC factory purchase? Panasonic have 5 plasma factories including the one they just opened in December capable of producing the 2160p 152" 3D plasma.


Checked out the 3D TV range at Harvey's on Saturday.

Sony tv looks quite good actually, both in picture and as well as physical display. Im looking to buy one maybe later on in the year. Whats the best brand out there atm for 3D tvs?

Definitely a Samsung or Panasonic plasma, and the Panasonic would likely be the better of the two. I'm unaware why blackwiggle listed flicker as a con on the 3D plasma as there is none on the VT20/VT25 Panasonic 3D plasmas with either 2D or 3D material. You can watch 2D material at 96Hz (4:4 pulldown eliminating 3:2 judder) or 3D at 120Hz. If you were to watch an LED 3D demo and then move onto the Panasonic you'll notice that the shortcomings of LCD technology are exacerbated with 3D. The response time, regardless of how much you beef up the refresh rate, is not quick enough to avoid ghosting. The left image cannot decay from the screen fast enough before the right image kicks in and motion interpolation or ME/MC chips will only succeed in causing artifacting.

Where 3D is concerned, plasma would be my only recommendation. The 2009 Viera sets already acheived 1080/1080 motion resolution with no artifacting, the 2010 sets have managed to cut luminance time on the pixel down to 33% of the 2009 models and decay time down to 25% of the 2009 models, acheiving 1/12th of the response time of the TV's that were already the market leaders in this area.

[ProblemSolver]

@blackwiggle: So I hope they will all do at least 3-D and not 2.9-D or
even 3.2-D. :eek

@dobyblue: That's a lot of outsourcing. xD Well, I thing Connavar meant
10.2 Gbps. About the 'new Panasonic Blu-ray player', where to buy and where
are the specs? Would be cool if that player can do 1080p@120Hz, but I can't
see why 120Hz would be beneficial here since blu-rays aren't recorded at
60fps for 3-D, or? That would be new to me, if true.


Ah. I had assumed that processing the geometry and then displaying the image (along with any shader effects) fell under the umbrella of "rendering". ...
Some simple geometry processing can be associated to the rendering process
like for example transforming the world coordinate-space into the light
coordinate-space to simplify shadow calculations (shadow maps). But in
general, the vertex processors in a sub-FERMI (Nvidia) graphics cards are
very limited if it comes to more complex calculation like for example hidden
surface removal (HSR) or physical stuff like collision detection and so on.
And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the shaders used for WipEout HD are
actually computed on the SPEs as well.

I wish SL could even further work on WipEout HD to gain more knowledge,
whatsoever, increasing their software stack, to enhance the current iteration
of WipEout HD even further, and to prepare for a new Wipeout for PS3. Given
the performance of the PS3 and all the insights gathered over the years, and
given all the professional and talented people over at SL, a possible next
Wipeout for the PS3 that pushes the PS3 to its utmost limits, would....
Arrgh, I need to stop typing. It hurts quite a bit knowing that this won't
come true. :|

[blackwiggle]

Yea sure I've got a reference to the Panasonic -Pioneer "KURO" buy out.

It was part of the spiel I got at Panasonic's big launch here in Australia.
Read it at this link [2 pages]

http://www.channelnews.com.au/Display/Plasma/J4P8T4S3

I could argue with salesmen forever.

TRUST YOUR EYES & DON'T BELIEVE BULL SHI7

[dobyblue]

@blackwiggle: <--Inserted by SaturnReturn as an example of a better way to address posts directly before.
No mention of acquiring the NEC factory there. Again, to the best of my knowledge Panny only acquired staff and patents, there would have been no need for them to acquire the factory given that they already own 5 plasma manufacturing facilities.


@blackwiggle: So I hope they will all do at least 3-D and not 2.9-D or
even 3.2-D. :eek

@dobyblue: That's a lot of outsourcing. xD Well, I thing Connavar meant
10.2 Gbps. About the 'new Panasonic Blu-ray player', where to buy and where
are the specs? Would be cool if that player can do 1080p@120Hz, but I can't
see why 120Hz would be beneficial here since blu-rays aren't recorded at
60fps for 3-D, or? That would be new to me, if true.

Yeah that's why I said I don't know why they would go that route. The encoding is a 1080p48 encoding and non-3D panels will simply ignore the right-eye frames as the left eye is deemed the master field to get 1080p24.

The VT25 series Panasonic sets will show 3D at 120Hz, the Blu-ray player performing 3:2 telecine on EACH of the frames, both left and right, converting 1080p48 to 1080p120. It seems bizarre to me that there is not an option for 1080p48 output with 96Hz refresh rate (2:2 pulldown on each side) eliminating 3:2 judder.

I'm waiting until next year anyway. One of two of the Kuro patents have shown up in the newest sets, but that was pretty much rushed in from what I can gather and the true effect of the Kuro R&D team will not be seen until next year's models, which touring calibrator D-Nice from the AVS forums claims will surpass the Kuro sets for minimum luminance levels and ANSI contrast...a feat no other TV on the market is close to doing.

The Panasonic Blu-ray player is model # DMP-BDT300 and I think it might be exclusive to Best Buy at the moment, but hopefully not for much longer. Retailer exclusives induce hostility in me as a consumer.

Nice thing about the Panny is you can run its TWO HDMI outputs in parallel so that you don't have to upgrade your receiver to still get lossless digital audio. One is HDMI 1.4, the secondary port is legacy HDMI 1.3

[drell]

Sorry, this thread is quite long and I might be asking a repeat question. So if someone kind enough can answer :)

When is this 3D coming out for WipEout HD? I read about reduction in detail and framerate, that is disappointing, but not unexpected for me. I am still interested. Prices are way too high right now but one day I'd like to try. WipEout HD made it to HD, now it's about to make it to 3D. Perhaps not in the detail level Studio Liverpool would have wished to, but still. ;)

[blackwiggle]

If you have a 3D TV you could play it now, the last system update 3.30 made your PS3 able to play 3D games.

The big PS3 system update that will enable 3D Bluray playback from your console has been rumored to be a June 10th release.

Sony is releasing the prices for it's 3D TV's on 18th May.

They are doing a deal when you buy Sony a 3D TV, you get 4 free 3D games to download, so logically the 3D games themselves will be available when the TV's go on sale.

[ProblemSolver]

Just some interesting stuff Sony is going for; Sony Stereo 3D Competition (http://sonycompetition.3dworldmag.com/).
In essence, Sony wants to put a BD with each new 3-D Bravia TV. The
BD will include the best takes from those being part of the competition.
Btw; You can win a 3-D TV and much more.

[ProblemSolver]

Date Set for First PS3 3D Games (http://www.andriasang.com/e/blog/2010/05/31/ps3_3d_date_set/) ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_gst-Ryh3g) :nod

[Golgofier]

And here we go - one extra dimension gets added to WO starting tomorrow (for the US anyway).

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/06/09/the-ultimate-3d-gaming-experience-stereoscopic-3d-gaming-on-playstation-3-available-tomorrow/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PSBlog+%28PlayStation.Blog%29

[Amorbis]

Well maybe that's what the current downtime is about. Sadly I'll have to wait until I get a 3D TV to be able to play this, which could be a while. I have been looking at the Samsung ones, which have a feature for adding depth to standard images, but I don't know how well that works.

Is there anyone here on the Zone who will be able to test the update? It would be nice to know whether it works well or not.

[DrMannevond]

I'm downloading the 2.20 update now. Will report back when it's done.

Edit : Just tried it, and I can't see anything different. I did notice a very low and annoying hissing sound that I haven't heard before. Not sure if it's the game or my sound-system though.

[blackwiggle]

It's probably your PS3's fan working overtime trying to cool the graphics card

[DrMannevond]

You're probably right. It's 1:30 in the morning, I have both windows open and it's cloudy outside. I still had to turn the PS3 off because of the heat :D

[Golgofier]

You're probably right. It's 1:30 in the morning, I have both windows open and it's cloudy outside. I still had to turn the PS3 off because of the heat :D

That happened to me too for the first time just the other day.
The fan suddenly went into overdrive, I've never heard that sound before from my PS3. Everything was back to normal after a restart though.

[Cyberio]

I didn't see any big change, apart from the 5.1 testing sound. Nothing more.
Anyway i don't have a 3DTV, only HD so of course the game will not show me the 3D options.

[drell]

Well I have finally seen WipEout HD in 3D, a small glimpse of it at least, at a Sony store. It was in video though so of course they "bullshoted" it and made the video 1080p... But it was still really impressive!
There was the game on the console too, but they would not let you play. :( So I cannot judge on what it actually looks like in-game engine.
I'll see if I can play in another store maybe. I would really like that.
All I can say is Sony's 3D works really well, but a big TV is preferred I think as it will be this much more immersive.

[Elk]

I got to try WipEout HD in 3D at E3 today and it was really crazy.

I'm not a 3D fan, but playing some games in 3D was pretty enjoyable. I got to play with WipEout HD and Gran Turismo 5 in the format and they were decent games, but for different reasons.

I had been waiting to try out Gran Turismo 5 for a while and I managed to do that in 3D, but it wasn't as great to me. Maybe the reason I liked WOHD in 3D and not GT5 was because the combat aspect of WipEout made it seem more legit to use for 3D (seeing the smoke trail after shooting rockets, the futuristic HUD style, the crosshair). In GT5 it was just simple racing with tickers on top and not wanting to hit the other vehicles.

If you guys have any questions I may be able to answer them. :)

[I do have pictures, but my card reader suddenly broke and I don't have a computer nearby that does. When I return home, I will be sure to link you with them, if you want.]

[amplificated]

Do you think the graphics/framerate hit is too big for someone used to playing it on a 1080p TV @ 60fps?

[Elk]

Being someone who is very picky about frame rate and the sorts, I really didn't care at all about how smooth the game played when I tried it out. Anyone who has played split-screen multiplayer on WOHD would notice a frame rate drop; playing WipEout HD in 3D in terms of how smooth it plays can be compared to split-screen racing. As for the graphics, they looked the same 1080p quality (but there was a lot of lighting at the booths, so the screen looked dim).

[il_mago_di_Doz]

playing WipEout HD in 3D in terms of how smooth it plays can be compared to split-screen racing.
That's absolutely not good :frown::frown:
I can't play split screen because it's really weird to see wohd so "unsmooth"!

[blackwiggle]

Whenever you guys get to try it in 3D remember to turn off the HUD effect.
That sudden blurring/zooming of the sides of the screen if it's turned on really does your head/eyes in.:dizzy , it's far better turned off when in 3D mode.

And have a paper bag close by if you try doing the boost/BR shortcut on Ubermall in cockpit view, it can be a real stomach churner :paperbag

[Chill]

Well at first I wasn't really excited or cared for this to happen, but now that it has... I have to say, I AM excited!!! :D

[lovedr]

so...i took a trip down to the local sony centre earlier today just to experience the sheer beauty that is WOHD in 3D and my gosh it's simply divine!

i've not seen 3D in the flesh before, not even bothered with any of the modern films in 3D as yet, but it's very impressive technology.

the depth of field and sense of immersion and speed is unparalleled, wipeout was made for 3D (or 3D was made for wipeout). watched a few trailers for other games / films but wipeout (for me) was definately the stand-out moment / use of the tech.

i'll be investing in 3D TV it won't be until price points get a little more mainstream but seriously recommend a viewing in person.

[Connavar]

Interesting 3d performance article, including wipeout HD.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/playstation-3d-performance-analysis-article?page=2

It's interesting that Crysis 2 is only losing 1.5% of performance when going 3D!!
They create the 2nd image out of the first one.

[blackwiggle]

Although I haven't seen this in action, it makes me wonder if Wipeout HD might suffer less of a frame rate drop, and subsequently play better, if outputted normally from the PS3 in 2D and had 3D emulation done by the TV's inbuilt 3D processing.
It might be worse?
I know the Toshiba TV's have a cell processor in their TV's to do this, I don't know about the Sony TV's, you would kind of want to think they did since it's the same chip as in the PS3.

Hopefully somebody will try this as a comparison at some stage and report their findings.

[Connavar]

Supposedly that's more or less how Crysis 2 works, they only render 1 frame,
so it's not true stereoscopic, and then they interpolate the 2nd frame,
using depth values + sometimes projections are needed (more calculations),
but they don't cost so much overhead, so it's still a lot faster than rendering
twice!

It's obviously an approximation, but if the illusion works and is fast, then I take
it over a 100% stereoscopic solution, after all, all the best looking games are
based on illusion (2d trees etc).

[KIGO1987]

Who here has the intention to buy a 3D TV set, or knows someone that already has a 3D TV set?

On another note, have noticed the 3D glasses for sale at JB, $130 each. Bugger that....Prob wait til 2015 at best to get a 3D TV.

[wiintermute]

I'm pondering getting one of these Toshibas with a Cell CPU. I need to check picture quality but I don't think there is anything to worry about - Toshiba is known for quality products.

[Sch@dows]

I'm planning to buy a 3D tv by the end of summer (probably Samsung or Sony) to replace my old CRT tv set (i wouldn't have if i already had a hdtv)

[dobyblue]

I will only get a plasma 3DTV. When you go from the Sony and Samsung LCD demos and check out the Panny 3D it's a different experience. Even in the brightly lit store environments the 3D is just more visceral thanks to the infinitely faster response time.

Samsung plasma or Panasonic plasma for 3D for me, but I'll wait another year or two for them to perfect the technology. By 2012 it would appear that the Panasonic sets will have implemented all the Pioneer Kuro patents that they acquired and hopefully we'll see the infinite contrast concept and 0 MLL concepts finally be realized.

Anyone who owns a Pioneer Kuro knows what the score is. Pioneer's vision was always to have in a totally dark room an image that appears to float and the Kuros are stunning in a dark room, totally unparalleled. Kuro-performance on a 3D set? Yes, I'll fork out for a 65". Until then I'll keep flying on my 42" plazzy.

[LOUDandPROUD]

@dobyblue - Yes, I'll be waiting for a nice plasma 3DTV, as well. I won't be in the market for a while though, as I just picked up my Panny Viera TC-P50G10 plazzy a little over a year ago. I absolutely love it. Plasma is the way to go! :rock

[Connavar]

I've seen a few demos of 3d movies on a LCD screen, and so far ... it sucks,
it looks less 3-dimensional than in 2D!!
Because I can easily see that there are several depth layers, like this character
is clearly in front of another one, however they both look completely flat,
like paper flat, while in the 2d version I see only 1 plane, so my brain imagines
it being 3d.
Also the flickering was pretty bad ... I hope it looks better on games, cause so
far I'm really not convinced at all, right now: 2d looks more 3-dimensional,
doesn't flicker, doesn't require glasses, and is cheaper!!

[brainbeat]

just ordered a 40 inch samsung for 859 from amazon and pair of glasses for 80, my parent are gonna kill me lol, cheers bank 4 credit card lol, get it tommorow by 1pm ill let ya know wat wipeouthd like, i tested it in the shop and kinda agree with you, but cloudy meatballs didnt look layered so i think for wipeout vid they just used 2d to 3d converstion, but heard the game is alot more 3d,

[stever]

I got to play Killzone 3 and GT5 in 3D (and got a go on Move) a couple of weeks back at Sony's first Beta Rooms event. Unfortunately WipEout HD wasn't there though.

I thought GT5 was a bit underwhelming to be honest and the depth didn't help me judge corners any better. I thought it made more of a difference on Killzone 3 where it definitely made it easier to judge the landing spots when you were leaping about with the jetpack. There's a lot more going on on screen too and the 3D did make it feel more immersive (I tried the same level in both 2D and 3D for comparison).

Neither convinced me that it's worth the expense of all the kit and having to wear a pair of goggles all the time though.

[Sausehuhn]

Interesting 3d performance article, including wipeout HD.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/playstation-3d-performance-analysis-article?page=2

I just realized, that when you use the cross-eye method (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBa-bCxsZDk), you can really see the videos in 3D – sure, it's a bit tiring for the eyes, but you really get a pretty good impression of how it looks :)

I like it! Though, WOHD seems a bit more flat im comparison to the other videos.

[dobyblue]

Is there a date for WO3D to be released? I imagine it won't be before the PS3 gets the 3D update of course.

[Sch@dows]

It should be available by now. If i remember correctly, it was at the same time the firmware with this function was released.

[blackwiggle]

Wipeout HD & Super Stardust both got the 3D game update back in June, as long as you have a PS3 and a 3D capable TV you can play both without additional cost.

[mikrucio]

But you lose 30 frames doing it.

[Amorbis]

I played WipEout HD in 3D for the first time today playing on a Samsung 3D LE40C750R2, and my first impressions were a bit mixed. The 3D does work, but doesn't give as good an effect as other 3D things that I've seen such as Super Stardust. Whilst playing HD it was difficult to focus on anything, especially when on the higher speed classes. Image separation and tear was also an issue, which retracted from the experience.

When the 3D effect does work you can really get a sense of depth, such as the cube thing on the Amphiseum or when another ship is directly ahead, but most of the time it makes it difficult to concentrate. However these are only my first impressions, I'll mess around with the settings to see if I can change the amount of image separation etc., but sadly the thing that really stops the true experience is the lower framerate. Super Stardust HD is incredible in 3D at 60fps, it's a shame WipEout can't achieve this apart from using the 3D 'upscaler' which doesn't deliver the same quality of depth as dedicated 3D.

[brainbeat]

Ive been trying to play in 3d for 2 weeks now. Ive had mixed feelings myself and the tearing at the top of screen is annoying but im use to that now so doesnt put me off.
My problem is that the handling feels diffrent and that it looks like they not quality assured it tbf. If you have to respawn it leaves you hanging for an eternity. Means game over online.
Hitting some walls by accident which normally would slow your ship down to a still rather than 3d it often makes your craft just stick on the spot for respawn time.
However ive noticed brs can be even easier for example vineta k venom double br out of tunnel is as easy as in rapier 2d.
3d Phantom i dont think ill ever get use to but its usefull in slower classes. Detonator mode is awesome too and zone is scary ive only managed zone 4oish at best in 3d.
Amorbis pain has some 3d games oh and google youtube 3d :)

[blackwiggle]

If your have 3D depth perception issues with wipeout not looking it's best I suspect it might be because you might have too much ambient light in the room, unfortunately to get 3D to appear at it's best you need to have the room pretty dark, luckily not as much as you would if playing through a projector.

I'm not sure when work on HD 3D stopped before the SL redundancies earlier in the year, but as HD 3D was first shown at E3 2years ago it might be showing it's 1st generation 3D game heritage compared to some of the newer games that are starting to appear.
Apparently there is a 3D game montage at the US Playstation store that you can download.
One of my friends bought a new Sony HX9000 3D TV [outrageous price Sony Aus$4500 for a 42" :eek] and has also hooked up his PC to it.
He said that Left 4 Dead, Portal & Alien swarm all look amazing if played this way.
He posted this at another forum if you have to equipment and want to try it.
QUOTE:
All you need is a driver to add the 2nd perspective, I'm using the iz3D driver from www.iz3D.com.
nvidea 3d drivers are supposed to work better but only work on GeForce graphics cards. (I have a radeon hd 5770)
It works for heaps of games, no patch or native 3d needed, a list of tested gamesin the link below
http://www.iz3d.com/compatible

[brainbeat]

hi blackwiggle yeah i forgot to mention ive tried iZD and ddd on my pc, the 3d effect in l4d ect is really good and u can control 3d effect better, have more variables to tweak to your eye focus. unfortunately i now realize i need a better pc as i just about get 30 on l4d,
im waiting on this nvidia 3dtv play see if it runs better first.

[Amorbis]

I changed some of the TV's settings and some of the in-game settings on WipEout HD which made the effect work a bit better. I put the depth on 25% instead of the 100% which I had yesterday, which meant that there was no visible separation and there was a nice sense of depth on the buildings and the ships.

I also got the 3D E3 trailer which was OK, but I wasn't able to get much of an effect from the low frames. Motorstorm's 3D demo was a bit like WipEout to begin with and required toning the 3D effect down to around 25%, which gave a really good mud and dirt effect when it went into the screen.

[Sch@dows]

Ok, So i got my new 3D Plasma TV yesterday and obviously, the first thing I tried was WipEout.

For the record, the TV is a SAMSUNG PS50C7700 (50" plasma) and my glasses are SSG2200AR.

Ok, I start the game and a question appear "would you like to activate 3D effect" (my translation from french version). Already! OK ...

The Fury / SL cinematic starts but I don't know if the glasses aren't ready yet or if the ships coming toward us too fast, but it wasn't very smooth.
Forget it, what about the game itself ... not yet !

Then comes the menus. The animation in background is in 3D (the menu itself is flat but seems closer that the background). 1st impression is good.

I'm going for the racebox without tuning the options, track selection is impressive with the track also rotating in 3D.
I didn't pay much attention to the ship selection (too impatient to play) but ships are also in 3D.

Then the race is about to start, the camera is giving a shot of the grid and ... WOUAW !!!
It's been 3 months (or so) I haven't started WipEout, but this is definitely different!

Then the race starts and you really feel the difference! Nothing comes off the screen, this more a depth perception. It feels both natural and strange. It took me 2 race to get the hang of it but, from then I'm sure It will be difficult to play that game without 3D.

I wonder if that's because I haven't played for 3 months, but the framerate didn't bother me so much.
Also, I didn't experience the "flat layer effect" someone write about, except for the smoke of explosion.


Finally, I returned to the options, where you can tweak the 3D effect (initially set to 0%). I put it to 100% but despite the fact I didn't see anything really different (still not coming out of the screen nor did it seem to have any more depth) I wasn't at easy while playing.
I put the settings back to 40% (cannot do this during a race though) and it was better.

I'm sleep depraved today, but it worth it.


I also tried the 2D->3D conversion offered by my TV, not on wipeout though (no reason), but on a anime movie (Evangelion 1.11 blue-ray). I'm impressed how well it works for a 2D source (you clearly see the depth difference beetween background and foreground) but you have clearly the feeling you're watching multiple layers of 2D images.
Next try for that functionality will be Formula One Championship (2007) or maybe the Korean Formula1 Grand Prix this week end.

[brainbeat]

I've had to stop playing wipeout for 2 months and found the framerate difference coming back absolutely fine.
I was constantly complaining about the controls feeling sketchy but I don't notice now. Just managed to get zone 34 on chengou which is all I ever managed in 2d.

Crossfade issues go after half hr warmup and I play in 70 to 100 3d strength depending on how tired I am. :)