Barrel Roll / Controller Question [Archive]

jimsin

10th July 2009, 03:33 PM

Apologies in advance if this is a tired subject, but I couldn't find any conclusive answers elsewhere.

I've set my heart on getting all the Wipeout HD trophies, and it's slow progress to say the least.

One thing that is really holding me back though, is that the barrel rolls are hugely hit or miss. I can understand this where you have to execute them in a split second - but in places such as the long drop at Chenghou Project, there's heaps of time to perform it - I waggle left, right, left, and even have time to repeat the whole thing two or maybe three times more, and still sometimes it fails to happen.

I can handle losing races because I make a mistake - but I'm increasingly concerned that it's an issue with my controller. Trouble is that I have two, and it happens with both of them.

I'm playing so much Wipeout HD, that being able to barrel roll every time I do LRL in the air would save me hours of time - but was wondering if it's just a common problem for everybody, and that if I bought a third controller it wouldn't make any difference?

Just to add, I'm hopeless with the D-Pad, can't even fly in a straight line - so this is just a question relating to the analog stick.

Any comments about your own experiences relating to the frequency of successful (easy) barrel rolls would be most welcome :D

LOUDandPROUD

10th July 2009, 03:58 PM

I'd say, at this point, I have about an 80% BR success rate. If you're only able to get off 2 or 3 attempts on the Chengou drop, it could be that you're not waggling LRL (or RLR) fast enough...it needs to be a pretty quick input. Having said that, the Chengou drop is a bit notorious for producing failed BR's, so who knows. Try waggling a little quicker and see if that helps with your BR consistency, in general. Just my thoughts...

jimsin

10th July 2009, 04:21 PM

Many thanks for the reply.

It actually seems to me that I'm maybe waggling too quickly - it seems to happen more often if I do a slower, more pronounced waggle - but then that's not always working either.

Think I need to set up some sort of 'waggle lab' to see if the frequency varies from controller to controller. Wasn't so much of an issue before racing at elite, but now one failed barrel roll is often all it takes to be short of getting a gold. Think I might risk a new controller in the hope that it makes a difference. If it does I'll post here.

Still interested in hearing about anybody else's BR success rates though.

DividedXZero

10th July 2009, 05:34 PM

I havent raced offline in ages, but online it just varies depending on how many racers and their connections. My BR success rate is anywhere from 50% (on a bad day) to 80%-90% on a good day. I hate the delayed reaction of BR sometimes (input BR but ship reacts as you are landing negating BR but not BR cost. But this is all online mind you.

And i use d-pad, always been more comfortable with wipeout. The only time is use analog was for Pulse and only to execute BRs.

Sorry i'm not much more help.

yeldar2097

10th July 2009, 06:28 PM

if you're racing in single race or online you will find that from time to time you pretty much won't be able to perform any BRs (usually on a specific piece of track i find). it's just the way it is at the moment. hopefully it'll be fixed soon but you never know.

if you are having trouble doing BRs in speed lap or time trial then it's probably your technique or your controller.

so really it depends which mode you're having difficulty in :D

YouAreFubar

10th July 2009, 06:59 PM

I doubt its your controller, I just bought a new Dual Shock pad the other day and still manage to fail a lot of barrel rolls on the Chengou drop. It never used to be this bad, I think the last major update screwed it up (as well as he ship handling).

jimsin

10th July 2009, 07:12 PM

This is all hugely helpful thanks. You saved me £39.99! :D

Everything about Wipeout HD seems so slick and seemless that it seemed almost inconceivable that the barrel rolls might be a bit unpredictable - thus I really was convincing myself it was both of my controllers. Really does seem worse on single races (haven't played much online yet), and maybe on the Chenghou drop in particular I'm expecting it to happen immediately and waggling like crazy, when the actual roll would only be taking place just before I hit the ground anyway?

I hate that track with a passion!

Great to know that it's not just me though - I love the fact that it's a tricky game to master, just wanted to be sure that I'm on a level playing field with everybody else, and it looks like I am :D

Sausehuhn

10th July 2009, 07:22 PM

[…]it seemed almost inconceivable that the barrel rolls might be a bit unpredictable[…]

That's actually the case since they were first introduced with WOPure. If there's too much going on, BRs may not work. In modes like Time Trial/Speed lap or Zone they are absolutely no problem, as there are no other ships to render, no weapons effects etc.
That's one of the reason some people don't like them: Because if they are part of the tactical gameplay, they should at least work all the time so they are not a random phenomenom.

jimsin

19th July 2009, 01:40 PM

Just updating this thread because I think this may be of interest to some players.

I gave in to my controller concerns and bought a Dualshock 3 (my original ones were the basic Sony Sixaxis ones that I bought with the PS3 when it first came out.

After a week with the Dualshock 3, I would definitely say that successful barrel rolls happen much more frequently - it's rare to miss one. I don't think this is necessarily because the Dualshock is a better controller, it's maybe just because my original ones were quite old and worn.

On the downside - I find that I get my best times by being extremely gentle with the airbreaks, anything more than a light brush on Phantom tends to result in me having to overcompensate - Now the problem with the Dualshock 3 is that the airbreak triggers push in with much less resistance than the original controllers - thus it's much more of a struggle to be subtle with the airbreaks, and more often than not I end up with either all or nothing.

So yes - for me the Dualshock 3 is a mixed bag - I pick up some time with successful barrel rolls, and lose some on the racing lines - would like to try a brand new Sixaxis but can't justify a 4th controller!

But yes - if anybody out there is considering a new controller, then I hope that the above is helpful.

Aeroracer

19th July 2009, 02:45 PM

You could go for a old ps2 joypad. Thats what i use as i dont realy like the ps3 joypads. R2 and L2 are better and my barrel rolls always work, i just have trouble inputting them without ending up in a wall, but thats my skill which is questionable not the hardware..

I have no idea how some of these players do them on the you tube vids. its like the whole lap is made of BR's, i would love to know there explanation.

PLazarou

19th July 2009, 03:06 PM

You could always assign the airbrakes to L1 and R1 if you don't like the analogue triggers, rather than using a crappy PS2 pad...;)

I think the issue with barrel rolls on the analogue stick is due to the positioning of the stick itself - it's at the wrong angle to your thumb (Sony should have swapped the positions of the d-pad and left stick years ago), and because it's totally loose and has a circular surround (unlike Nintendo's sticks, which have 8 notches) it's harder to gauge whether you are actually angling the stick exactly left or right.

Many failed BRs are due to the fact you've done something nearer to top-left, bottom-right, top-left without realising.

SaturnReturn

19th July 2009, 04:07 PM

I have no idea how some of these players do them on the you tube vids. its like the whole lap is made of BR's, i would love to know there explanation.

Haha, poor frenchies. You make them sound like they've done something wrong :lol "Just what do you think you're doing with all these barrel rolls? Hmm? Explain yourself young pirahpac! You can wipe that smirk off your face too Master Leungbok, don't get me started on your boost-select-boost shenanigans." Teehee!

SonicChaos

19th July 2009, 04:21 PM

Yes BR's seem to have a 70% success rate when I race. It might be due to the diagonal hits I sometimes do, but still I think it's not just us as many people have complained about it since the new update. I never missed a BR on the old versions.

leungbok

19th July 2009, 04:30 PM

jimsin

19th July 2009, 04:52 PM

Ah this is interesting - I'm still convinced that the Dualshock 3 gives me much more successful barrel rolls - but I thought that diagonal left and right was supposed to work too. So if you're pulling your nose up for a jump, you have to pull back, then return the stick to the center position, and then do a clean - Left, Right, Left (or vice versa)? I'm sure that if I'm pulling down to get extra air, then I'm doing an L-R-L from the down position already - so perhaps this is responsible for some of the failures.

About re-assigning to L1 and R1 - don't think I could have explained well enough - it's the extra resistance on the older controllers that I like - because it's easier to just gently ease on the airbreak without it going all the way in. Just checked the L1 and R1 and they seem to be pretty much off or on - so that would be even worse than the Dualshock's L2 and R2.

I'll definitely look into the PS2 joypad idea - seems like it might be the answer - thanks.

Never imagined having a discussion like this about controllers - but when you're spending hours on end trying to improve by a couple of tenths of a second, then you really do have to take everything into account.

PLazarou

19th July 2009, 05:01 PM

My suggestion of L1 and R1 was aimed more at jasmin-jade.;)

As for the PS2's DualShock 2, the L2 and R2 are just like the L1 and R1 of the DualShock 3, so I don't know how that's going to help you...:|

jimsin

19th July 2009, 07:32 PM

ahhh ... that won't help me at all then - maybe I just need to stick with the Dual Shock 3 and change my cornering style ... these elite phantom race golds are driving me crazy - seem impossible to get!

PLazarou

19th July 2009, 07:59 PM

Indeed. I do recommend the Gioteck triggers though - they're a few quid on eBay, play.com, etc.

They're not going to increase the resistance of the springs like you want, but I find the trigger-like shape allows for more accurate inputs.

sh1kamaru-

19th July 2009, 08:35 PM

Haha, poor frenchies. You make them sound like they've done something wrong :lol "Just what do you think you're doing with all these barrel rolls? Hmm? Explain yourself young pirahpac! You can wipe that smirk off your face too Master Leungbok, don't get me started on your boost-select-boost shenanigans." Teehee!

lol !

What I've experienced is that on speed lap and TT barrel rolls work really great, but in races they can be random, but for me the situation is even worse on Pulse, I mean for instance on the jump on Arc Prime White ! In HD the probability that a BR can fail is rather low, but it can happen. But I've found that they fail a lot less if you're first, that's to say when there aren't many things to render.

That said I can with no doubt say that it's not related to the position of the stick at all, I've just missed so many BRs on Pulse (I play with the D-Pad) that it's absolutely not the controller, nor the stick, nor the way you do it.

What's fun though is that some difficult BRs are somewhat easy to pull of after that, even in single race :D

SonicChaos

19th July 2009, 09:19 PM

Well then it must be random as to when BR's pull off. Mabye they did that to counteract BR Hunting like in Pulse or Pure (Can't remember which one if not both where BR's were the only way to get good times). If so, they need to revert it back and adjust when BR's can be performed.

YouAreFubar

19th July 2009, 11:53 PM

lol @ SaturnReturn! What an awesome response!

After a week with the Dualshock 3, I would definitely say that successful barrel rolls happen much more frequently - it's rare to miss one. I don't think this is necessarily because the Dualshock is a better controller, it's maybe just because my original ones were quite old and worn.

On the downside - I find that I get my best times by being extremely gentle with the airbreaks, anything more than a light brush on Phantom tends to result in me having to overcompensate - Now the problem with the Dualshock 3 is that the airbreak triggers push in with much less resistance than the original controllers - thus it's much more of a struggle to be subtle with the airbreaks, and more often than not I end up with either all or nothing.

So yes - for me the Dualshock 3 is a mixed bag.
Ive got to agree with this. After breaking it in for a few days, its certainly got a bit better doing BRs. Not 100% but definitely better. And the triggers are also weird at first, but I got used to them pretty quick. TBH ive always pressed them hard but briefly when cornering rather than slightly as necessary so resistance wasnt really a big issue.

pirahpac

19th July 2009, 11:53 PM

jimsin

20th July 2009, 12:38 AM

Plazarou - those Gioteck triggers look interesting, thanks - I'll definitely check them out.

Pirahpac - lol - I don't understand your fingers either :D - I'm sure it makes more sense if you can see the screen at the same time.

Youarefubar - Glad somebody agrees about the Duelshock being better for Barrelrolls ... as regards the brakes, I now seem to be developing a different airbreaking style more suited to the less resistant triggers - I'd love to know more about people's exact cornering techniques ... thing is that it's so reflexive that I hardly know what I'm doing myself ( like Pirahpac was saying I think ).

blackwiggle

20th July 2009, 01:34 AM

mic-dk

20th July 2009, 07:31 AM

Funny Pirhapac!

I found it slightly disturbing that I could pretty much guess where on the track you were just by looking at the steering input. I need a break methinks ;)

leungbok

20th July 2009, 07:44 AM

Do you always play with the mini USB cable connected?

That might explain why your percentage of successful BR's are so high and how you seem to be able to do them at places others find very hard,if not impossible

I've always been of the opinion that the wireless connection doesn't have a 100% success rate,or there is a slight lag inherent between the controller and the console.
I'm not sure of that, mate ! I almost always play without the wire and i let the paddle discharge to the max. I don't encounter problem to perform br even with low charge (offline of course ;)).

KIGO1987

20th July 2009, 07:47 AM

Do you always play with the mini USB cable connected?

That might explain why your percentage of successful BR's are so high and how you seem to be able to do them at places others find very hard,if not impossible

I've always been of the opinion that the wireless connection doesn't have a 100% success rate,or there is a slight lag inherent between the controller and the console.

Never considered that before. Might try with the controller plugged in now.

Darkdrium777

20th July 2009, 08:29 AM

I play with USB plugged in 99% of the time. BRs are still total epic fail. Rewrite the code completely, find another way to make them work, or don't include them in the next game FFS. Enough of the dodgy inputs. :| We're losing the very definition of "WipeOut" if we keep random things like this in...
Precision...

KIGO1987

20th July 2009, 08:42 AM

Totally agree with you there Darkdrium.

O_BR

20th July 2009, 11:31 AM

I tend to waggle it all wrong such as left-right-right when I'm not really into the
game such as being frustrated because of few .01 seconds in a time trial.:lol

I noticed this just a little while ago when I try to waggle the combo too fast.

And on Chenghou I have a theory. It also might be because of the drop height you get to thinking you don't need to press the combo that fast since there's
so much time. And because of that the combo is too slow thus ship not rolling.

pirahpac

20th July 2009, 11:38 AM

Do you always play with the mini USB cable connected?

That might explain why your percentage of successful BR's are so high and how you seem to be able to do them at places others find very hard,if not impossible

I've always been of the opinion that the wireless connection doesn't have a 100% success rate,or there is a slight lag inherent between the controller and the console.

yes u right cuz USB = Unlimited Skill Barrell roll .......... U Serious Blackwiggle ?? oO 1: it was just because..my paddle needed reload 2 : i have ANY problem with br everywhere( except chengou online..like all) 3::frown: :|

blackwiggle

20th July 2009, 12:51 PM

It was only a question nothing more :paperbag

pirahpac

20th July 2009, 12:53 PM

It was only a question nothing more :paperbag

np lol i have my humour typically french :redface:

leungbok

20th July 2009, 02:43 PM

@Blackwiggle- I confirm, hardcore humor ! So don't care mate ;)
And about success on br, i must confess that my videos (and i suppose Pirah's videos too) are selected bits. I consistently miss br (even the easiest sometimes :lol)
;)

blackwiggle

20th July 2009, 04:33 PM

I asked Mad Ice ages ago how the hell he was doing his BR's and to post a video.

He thought it ridiculous ,but obviously ARENA guys think it is valid.

HAIL! to MR sticky thumb [my thumb falls off the stick is trying to do what PIRA is doing here].

The Fastest thumb in the west :cowboy

KIGO1987

20th July 2009, 04:40 PM

Where the hell is this video you where going on about blackwiggle?

blackwiggle

20th July 2009, 04:46 PM

Post #22 of this thread

KIGO1987

20th July 2009, 04:51 PM

k then

Darkdrium777

20th July 2009, 05:10 PM

And on Chenghou I have a theory. It also might be because of the drop height you get to thinking you don't need to press the combo that fast since there's
so much time. And because of that the combo is too slow thus ship not rolling.No. BRs can work even when you do a slow left right left combo. Try it by sending yourself flying in the sky, Sol2 or Sebenco work well for that, and then try any speed while doing the combo. It can work until it's very slow.
The reason it doesn't work is the same as why they don't work in PurE or Pulse. Bad code. :/ I hope they did fix that with the new update coming out this week.

SonicChaos

21st July 2009, 10:22 PM

....and with the expansion on the way as well. Either fix it or remove it, it's that simple.

ProblemSolver

22nd July 2009, 12:38 AM

Got the same feeling that using the wire makes a BR-try a bit more successful
(HD version < 2.0, at least).

Aeroracer

22nd July 2009, 12:48 AM

To my defense, your honour, i must tell first that i only use the d-pad with pitch motion only (100% settings). sorry if i shock someone here in the assembly, but YES, i confess that i do love the brs, but as mitigating, it's only because i want to be the fastest possible !! Is that a crime, i appeal to the indulgence of the jury ! And Pirahpac, the brain of the band, obliged me to use these tricks !
;)

Nothing wrong with the frenchies doing Barrel rolls all over the place, especially when they pay my wages and give me a nice apartment to live in when i am in paris. wish i could do as many as they do, but that d-pad motion sensor stuff sounds really cool. i will try it out.:nod:nod:nod

Thx for the tips.