DJ TECHNO'S CONTEST. new needed rules

[JABBERJAW]

I hope I'm not intruding on adding a couple of rules to keep this fair, but here goes

1)wipeout,wipeout xl. link mode should be allowed because all of the ships are still competeting and the other opponent can target you making it more difficult.
-----one on ones should not be allowed though
-----I am playing a friend in link mode and we are going to take his times from that if he doesn't play it again. I will not even come close to best times doing this. THis will get a few more people into the contest.

2)wipeout 64 2 player mode should not be allowed because you can allow one player to get way ahead and the computer keeps giving you turbos. Also, on single player checkpoints should be turned on.

3)wipeout 3. link mode or multiplayer should not be allowed because it is 8 ships competing against you rather than 12.

[Lance]

.
i thought it was understood that the contest is strictly one player against the AI in single race mode, all ships and weapons enabled. this applies to all versions. no links, no multiplayer, no 2 player. in other words, the same rules that apply in the times tables. since the friend is there with access to the game, why can he not just play the game against the AI? why make it more difficult for him by having the conditions under which he plays be more unfavourable than those which other people deal with?
.

[zargz]

I'll have 2agree with lance ..

[JABBERJAW]

I guess that's fine, but all I was saying is that it wouldn't change any results because you are still competing against the full field, and it wouldn't be easier. I thought it wouldn't matter. I already have my times for everything but wipeout1 and a few on 3 and all on fusion. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be allowed.

[DJ Techno]

Zoolander

I see nothing wrong including your friend into the tournament
Remember this is a one player, single race tournament, and your friend can play
as well, just not against another human player next to him.



I well to let everybody know this ahead of time
The next tournament will be a Teams tournament
"That is all I will tell about"

[zargz]

' I already have my times for everything but wipeout1 and a few on 3 and all on fusion'

can I just post my best times on every version without even touching the pad then? :-?

[Lance]

.
'' I'm not sure why this wouldn't be allowed.''
because it changes the basic conditions if you're racing against another player. it would be, in its effect, as though most people played against the 2002 Chicago Bulls, while a few people had to play against the Lakers, and a few others only had to play the local highschool team. your times are affected by whom you play against. the object of this challenge is to standardise the conditions for as many people around the world as possible to find out who is the best at the basic game that everyone can play.

__________

'' I already have my times for everything but wipeout1 and a few on 3 and all on fusion''

''can I just post my best times on every version without even touching the pad then?''

as it states in the rules, the times must be raced for on a week by week basis. and in one version of the game per week. then those times are posted at the end of that week. no old times may be used. the racing is to be done on one and only one version of wipeout per week and done in the stated order. fresh times for a fresh challenge. once that week is over, no further times may be entered for that track. the concept of the challenge is to be an approximation in Wipeout of a Formula One season.

if we didn't do it this way, we might just as well not have an event, but simply compare times from the times tables for those that already exist. in addition to the tables from wz for wo3, there is a site somewhere that has times for 2097/xl, so we could theoretically eliminate those 2 versions of the game from active new participation. what would be the point of a challenge in that case? you don't get to race the German Gran Prix before or after the event; why should we allow such a thing for a Wipeout challenge?

as always, we rely on the personal honour of the contestants to stick to the rules. [we're not demanding that a notarised videotape be sent in each week ;) ]
.

[JABBERJAW]

I'll just redo them then, no big deal. I sent you a email concerning link mode though. Not being allowed to use old times is going to be a burden for many I think. Not being able to play too often each week. Old times should be able to be beaten anyways just by more practice. I also didn't see in the rules where you couldn't use old times, but I'll look again. I do see not being able to use old times in the sense that you don't know how you got it(maybe you used a cheat or played one-on one). I'll just replay them though, but I don't really want to spend all my time playing wipeout for a full month, I do like other games :o :D

[JABBERJAW]

just saw the rules and it was in there.

[Lance]

.
it would maybe ease the burden a bit to only do one track per week, just as in F1, but although it would mean better times for any given track, the challenge would last nearly 4 months!
.

[Task]

I don't see any problem playing 3 tracks a week. One track isn't quite enough, really, because after I've improved my Altima time I go try another track, then I come back to Altima and I can improve a little more, I usually play several tracks at once like that just to break the routine. I find that it really helps.
It only takes a couple of hours to get some good times, there's a whole weeks worth of time to find those hours within, I'm sure that anyone who wants to compete can.
I, personally, don't see any _serious_ problem with posting times from a 2-player game, except that it would likely lead to slower times, and I'd rather see everyone in this game doing their best. Which means 1 player mode, throw some time at it, practice till you get a good time. This is also why I prefer "make the times right now".
Of course, what I like and dislike is all beyond the point. The point here is that everyone who's competing is doing so Right Now. All around the world, wipers are playing, competing for the gold. We're playing on a fairly level field with some good restrictions, the best pilot will rise to the top. I wouldn't miss this for anything.

[Lance]

.
after much further consideration of Al's suggestion about allowing 2-player or link mode, i changed my mind about that one point. here is the complete text of a new note added to the top of the instructions thread [note also the change in the Fusion tracks to be used for that portion of the challenge a few weeks from now]:

[a new note posted november 8, 2002: Al has pointed out that we may get more competitors if we allow race modes such as 2-player or multiplayer on link mode to be used for getting times for the challenge. this will be okay as long as the mode includes the computer operated ships, the AI. these must be raced against as well. this may actually slow your times as the relative unpredictability of the human opponents would be harder to deal with. but you may do it if you wish.
i must reiterate that all times posted by the challengers are to be fresh times raced for during each week of this live competition.

as the original tracks chosen for the Fusion portion of the competition were thought to be too easy, DJ Techno has chosen the following tracks to replace the original choices
katmoda 12 long track
Vohl Square long track
Temtesh Bay long track]

it's my opinion that the other modes of racing that include the AI will only hurt the times of those running them. it doesn't seem possible that times could be better than those of solo pilots racing against the AI only. just imagine what it would do to your times if you were to race against Mr. Sartwell, or at the other end of the spectrum, to race against someone less good than you, but who nevertheless gets in a lucky rocket shot at you, or a quake
.

[JABBERJAW]

nice track selections :D

[auslander]

(not to be a spoilsport) :)

but 2 player team playing is unfair for one reason:

Player two doesn't have to follow the rules. They can sit back 'protecting' the first player's ship. This means the computer is unfairly disadvantaged when trying to eliminate or slow down the lead ship. Player two can hang back and take care of any computer ship just before they get close enough to Player one to let rip with a missle or rockets or whatever.

also, since player two is occupying one of the slots on the track, Player one has one less blood-thirsty computer opponent to fight. This is even more important in Fusion because the enemy ships have a full spread of weapons that can slow you down by a lot.

aus!

[Lance]

.
but since we already rely on each other's honour on all other points [after all, a cheater doesn't have to do anything as elaborate as team racing, they could just post a fake time], can't we rely on their honour not to do this kind of cheating just as we do for all other kinds?
.

[auslander]

however honourable they are, i still think it's taking a spot away from a bloody thirsty CPU ship and give it to one of your friends.

now, i'm a nice guy, and if me and spaceboy are both racing for the best time possible i may hesitate firing at him.

So even if i'm trying to be honourable to the rules, i'm still giving him a better chance at breaking a record than if he had another CPU after him.

I don't think you can dictate, 'if you're playing 2-Player games, you must be mean to the other Player' :)

aus!

[Lance]

.
any thoughts from others about this point?
.

[Task]

If you're anywhere near one of the AI players after the first lap of the game, you're not going to get a good time anyway. For the first lap, if there's one human racing with you rather than one AI, the human is the more difficult player, the one more likely to give you problems. We are, after all, talking about the ship in last starting position of the grid, or the second last. You know, that ship that you don't see till the lap where you pass it _again_. That ship has what effect on your times? None! Now, if it's a human instead, they're much more likely to stick with you, be nearby and in the way.
Unless there's some serious co-operation going on (I'll block the AIs, you work on going as fast as possible) then having a human instead of an AI can only be a hindrance. And, as Lance has quite correctly pointed out, anyone doing that might as well just be totally making up their times.
I'm quite positive that there's absolutely nothing to worry about here. If someone wants to handicap themselves this way, I'm not gonna say anything against it. I just hope that the 2-player gaming gets them in the mood to sit down to some serious 1-player record making instead of merely submitting their likely sub-standard times.
Now, when is someone else gonna post some times? 8 )

[xEik]

I'm not participating in the contest but wouldn't link mode make the computer AI have two enemies instead of one thus dividing its forces? I don't think they AI pilots attack each other that much. And what if lapping happens? The first pilot sweeps the way for the second one. It's up to you, though.

PRACTICE LEADS TO PERFECTION !

[Lance]

.
if both consoles are sharing computing duties, no. wouldn't they just be transferring synchronisation data?
.

[xEik]

Half the number of AI opponents per player.

PRACTICE LEADS TO PERFECTION !

[zargz]

how ever slight the posssibility of a coop Btween p1 & p2 is, it still makes the competition uneven,
doesn't matter if it's against or for, just by the fact that some r gonna play alone and others in pair.
J: I'll post my times now 8)

[Lance]

.
okay, there's just too much objection to the idea in such a short time already, so it's back to the original rule. single race mode only for one challenger and one machine. that way there is no question of the fairness of the times made. i'm changing the instructions topic to reflect this choice
.

[JABBERJAW]

this is just wrong. there are the same number of opponents firing the same weapons. I'm deciding on whether to play or not now. It is not hurting anyone if someone uses it. It's wrong to put so many rules that aren't important to the race. It's not like we have 300 people actively participating on the forum. You also get blasted by your opponent in link. there is nothing wrong with this. this is ridiculous.

[auslander]

Task, even if they only effect you when you lap them that second time, think about laping the darned Auricom pulling away towards the finish, perfectly happy with you 2 second improvement in lap times and then *bam* rockets pile you into the pits, you bounce and you end up +1 seconds instead of -2 seconds on the lap.

the only issue is, that the *possibility* exists for two player teams to help each other out to mutually beneficial results. And you get one less computer chasing you.

I'm with Zargz's point, but hey, if Zoolander isn't going to play solo vs the computer then sure, play versus someone else as long as you still play. I mean really we can't stop you, and i'd still like to try to beat your times (which is next to impossible anyway :) ) so go on and play with a buddy if you know that it puts you at a disadvantage.

aus!

[Task]

The computer players _do_not_ chase you! "Chasing" means that there's a chance they'll catch up. They're merely on the same track as you, and for maybe a second per opponent per race you're actually able to effect each other. It's not like they're behind you all the way, throwing weaponry at you, they are merely pilons that you hafta maneuver past.
Another player OTOH, _is_ chasing you, there's a good chance they'll pass you, and unless the two players are seriously working for each other (which would, of course, be totally unsportsmanlike conduct, quite unbecoming for a gentleman, and therefore I assume that nobody here would do it) then they'll be far more of a hindrance to you than any single AI player could be.
If the only way a person can enter times is via a 2-player game, then it really doesn't bother me. What I find confusing is that it seems like many people are imagining this "ravening horde of 12 opponenents dogging their heels throughout the race" being reduced to a "ravening horde of 11 opponents", when in actual fact there is no such horde to begin with. There is no "this AI is the opponent of player 1, this AI is the opponent of player 2" there's just 1 less fast moving pilon on the track. In a real 2-player game, the other player is your _true_ opponent, the AIs are mere window dressing.
Perhaps I'm just confused, such a thing has been known to happen.
All my best times will always be single-player mode, so it's not like it even effects me.
Still, I'm kinda surprised at the number of negative responses. How very interesting it is!

[JABBERJAW]

I'm not trying to be a jackass here. I'm playing single player myself. When a few friends come over I'll play with them to get some extra times for the contest. They all like wipeout, but don't play it too much or even own it. If I happened to get a best time playing them I would use it, but that is very unlikely. When I'm putting a effort for my best times I play single player for a couple of hours(unless I get a good time early) for a track. I just thought it was kinda ridiculous that anyone was complaining about something that was a non-issue. I do understand the play in the week concept however. peace

[Lance]

.
while i would say that Al is probably the most knowledgable of all the pilots about the various aspects and details of the games, the fact is that if the other pilots don't feel that all of the modes will produce exactly equal results, than the validity of the results will still be questioned even 5 weeks down the line when the challenge is over. who wants to put in that much effort over such a long time and not be sure of the fairness of the contest? this is supposed to be fun, not an occasion for argument.

i realise that different players have different mentalities and find different types of play interesting. if solo play against the computer is not sufficiently interesting or fun to be worth the time and effort for some players, than a separate challenge can be started for 2 or 4 player competition. but this present challenge is for one player against the Artificial Intelligence. there's not much time left in this first week of the challenge. those who want to participate in it have another full day to race on WipEout original, before the competition goes to WO 2097/XL.
.

[zargz]

nobody talking about this weeks competition!! wo64 :o
is anybody playing it?? :roll: