Pitching mechanics (?)

[H3avyM3tal]

I didn't find any thread about pitch in the game, so here it is I hope.

I never gave pitching much thought when I raced (or when I race even now), but I know about it so little. Maybe I am stretching it too much here, but is there any point to it besides not hitting the ground or evading the obstacle at the end of the AP overpass? Whenever I race on SC it becomes so obvious that pitch should be used; if it's just when you reach the first jump, or when you take the hard bowl right turn inside the tunnel (even so when racing backwards) - it is impossible to avoid hitting the ground if I am not pitch (or trying to).

The other thing I was interested in knowing about is if affects the craft in any way - handling (I really wanna see a change to the way a craft feels if it take a bomb when you pitch up or down, for example), or speed (mostly interested in this).

Those are just examples. Of course pitching is number 1 aid when concerning barrel rolls, but I would like to here from you ace zone pilots about your thoughts on the matter, and share with up pitching tactics on the various tracks.

:coffee or :beer, if you want there is some :pizza as well.

[yeldar2097]

ah pitching, you'll be getting many answers for this i'm sure :P

yeldar + pitching goes as follows: i don't really pitch at all when i'm racing unless i'm pitching up to make sure i can make a barrel roll. my lack of pitching is almost certainly the reason why there are many pilots faster than myself (amongst other things of course)
pitching doesn't affect your speed in the slightest, unlike in pulse.
pitching up while going round sharp corners can help you cut them a little. this is especially true for the first corner on sebenco.


I can't really think of much else to say at the moment because i'm quite tired but i'll be sure to edit my post if i do :D

Edit: that didn't take long... I'll include BR pitching as well but not BRs that can be aquired without pitching...they're pretty obvious


Vineta K
Pitch up: for BR in first tunnel, off the 2nd speed pad on the mini straight, off the 2nd ledge, exiting the tunnel (for 2BRs).
Pitch down: if you use a turbo so that you minimise the time spent in the air, if you don't want to BR: off both the ledges so that you catch the speedpads, on the crest exiting the final tunnel.

Anulpha Pass
Pitch up: (slightly) when using a turbo after the first tunnel, when turning left onto the three pads (arrowhead) for a BR, the 'zico' roll
Pitch down: off the crest in the 2nd tunnel if you don't want to/can't BR (thanks mic-dk :D)

Moa Therma
Pitch up: for the left hander after the 1st mag, you can skip some of the track this way; if you have a turbo you can skip even more (both methods can get you a BR). the final chicane+BR, stay right before the 2nd mag and turbo + BR
Pitch down: err..... perhaps after the turbo shortcut if you have too much air, if you don't want to BR: in the last chicane so that you don't catch air off the first speedpad
Chenghou Project
Pitch up: off the first ledge if you hit the speed pad so that you miss the middle section, at the end of the loooong left hander to get a BR (not always necessary, it depends how you take the corner (sideshift etc...)). finishing straight + turbo will get you a BR
Pitch down: AROUND THE BANKED LEFT HANDER, off the final ledge before the finish. If you can't BR; at the start before the hairpin, all the way around the banked turn.

Metropia
Pitch up: at the first crest to get a BR; at the end of the mag strip for a BR; at the left hander just after the mag strip for a BR onto the speed pad (onto the straight before the final sharp right-hander); the final turn (it helps you cut the corner)
Pitch down: if you can't BR: at the first crest, leaving the mag strip, onto the speedpad at the exit of the left-hander after the magstrip

Sebenco Climb
Pitch up: Around the first corner (to cut it), on the 1st speedpad inside the tunnel for a BR (before you turn right), exiting the tunnel for a BR (2 is quite easy if you miss the speedpad), off the ledge before the last corner for a BR, on bump in the last corner + turbo for a BR.
Pitch down: the bump after the 1st corner, after the crest after the speedpad on the 2nd corner until the 4th corner (the final hairpin), the crest after the weapon pads if you BR before the crest. if you can't BR: the crest after the weapon pads at the top of the hill, exiting the tunnel.
Ubermall
Pitch up: + sideshift right on the first speedpad to cut the corner + BR, after the BR on the bump after the split so that you can cut the corner before the final chicane (+BR), at the crest just before the finish for a BR (or 2 if you keep pitching), at the start/finish line + turbo for a BR, just before the split for a BR.
Pitch down: after the hill after the split, after the turbo-shortcut (from the hill after split), after you cut the corner after the hill, if you turbo on the last crest, if you can't BR: at the top of the hill on the finishing straight
Sol 2
Pitch up: on the 3rd speedpad (before the long turns) for a BR (you can also do this without hittin the speedpad so that you get a weapon instead), around the first long turn, at the end of the 2nd long turn for a BR --- with turbo: after the 1st speedpad you can cut the corner (stay inside the blue wing thingy or you'll respawn), at the end of the 2nd long turn for a BR, exiting the final corner for a BR over the line (you still get the weapon which is helpful).
Pitch down: if you can't BR: at the 3rd speedpad, at the end of the 2nd long corner.


Reverse Tracks coming soon...maybe

(if i have made any mistakes or missed anything out then feel free to let me know (especially the pilots who are faster than me, you know you you are :P))

hope this helps :D

[SaturnReturn]

I think I'm the same as yeldar. I don't pitch much, but really should. I just find it throws me off course as I suck at it with the d-pad.

If you go over a small jump then you are likely to pitch up to pull off a barrel roll. However, there are some where you may actually want to pitch down. For example, the one near the end of Sol2 reverse, and also Anulpha reverse. I think those are two where you can do the barrel roll and stay very low, which should help you go a little faster. I don't expect the difference is huge, and not doing the barrel roll at all is certainly not as fast, so pitching up to make sure you get the roll is perhaps the best option. But as you learn more about individual tracks I think cases like these become more important to compete with the very best.

[mic-dk]

Anulpha Pass
Pitch down: When you don't want to BR off the hill at the end of the straight (just before the tracks narrows)

In fact pitch down whenever you don't want airtime. Much usefull. Sebenco Forward comes to mind.

[yeldar2097]

cheers mic-dk, i'll add that to the list. I forgot that sometimes people don't want to/can't BR :lol

[blackwiggle]

Pitch as such does not matter as much as previous versions of the game.

Pitch DOWN is only needed on Sebenco [if only to stop flying upwards unnecessarily ] and is nowhere needed as must as previous wipeouts,if at all.

I think the physics of HD were explained many moons ago in comparison to previous wipeout games.

Basically saying PITCH DOWN had been made redundant.

Others will post counter claiming this,but for the most part I think it's true.

With HD for certain.

[Connavar]

Make sure to pitch down if you boost before the line on Ubermall Reverse.

[SaturnReturn]

It probably is largely redundant in the average online game. But when trying to eke out tenths of a second in speed lap, for example, I think it becomes very improtant. Does no-one else use it one the banked left-hander on chenghou project? Surely you couldn't make that turn to well without it?

Let's not forget after the hill on Ubermall, both forward and reverse. You still get the barrel roll and also get back to the track mroe quickly. The more I think about it, the more places there are when pitching down will make you faster. It's not a case of only doing it if you don't want to barrel roll. It's still not a huge deal if you don't pitch down, but I can almost guarantee that the best of the best will pitch down more than most of us realise.

[mic-dk]

Aye, Chengou F came to my mind as well. Without pitching down, you're all over the place.

Edit:@Yeldar Usually I only get one chance at that BR. The rest of the race I'm to shredded to try, so better keep that nose down :lol

[blackwiggle]

I agree.
But for the most part HD pitch down is very tolerant in comparison to previous incantations of wipeout.

I'm pretty sure we had that confirmed by one of the SL staff.

[yeldar2097]

i think i probably pitch a lot more than i think i do but i thought i'd make a list just for the hell of it.
i do agree with saturn that during online races it not all that crucial unless you are going for records (as with tt/sl). if you do happen to practice in tt/sl you're probably find yourself doing it subsonsciously in races which is no bad thing...

[H3avyM3tal]

I don't use pitch as much and I can or should, but I never pitch on that one specific left bender on CP forward - I just try to stay in the middle and hold left down, and even without use air breaks I somehow manage to keep my ship stable - although I think this is because I race more on Rapier then on Phantom speed. That is probably it now that I think about it. However I think using pitch down there is only needed if you come in too hard on the air breaks, and I DO remember on occasion not using pd (pitch down) and still surviving the turn well.

On SC I use pd only after the first turn, but maybe I should too on the third, blind right, hill corner. I think all other turns require pu to help avoid grinding the groud, no?


It probably is largely redundant in the average online game. But when trying to eke out tenths of a second in speed lap, for example, I think it becomes very improtant. Does no-one else use it one the banked left-hander on chenghou project? Surely you couldn't make that turn to well without it?

I think it is wrong to assume so, because in high skill races, such as races done by members here, every bit of skill counts no? Correct me if I'm wrong, but many here use pitch when racing online (I think). Would be strange for me if not...

[SaturnReturn]

I think that statement still stands. By largely I mean most of the time on most tracks, pitch isn't a necessity. I think the places where it matters are very specific. Also, by average online game, I don't mean one full of zoners. That's definitely an above average game. But obviously, if you get the hang of proper pitching then it will give you an advantage. It just doesn't play as big a role as things like barrel rolls and sideshifting.

[blackwiggle]

It might come down to two factors.
Firstly if you use the D-Pad or not - If you DO use the D-Pad then you would most likely notice HAVING to use it.
If using the stick,well it would not be as noticeable as the movements are less specific.

Secondly is that unless previously known piloting skills are needed regarding this matter,if you don't know it you never had it,sort of situation.

A pure [NEW] ZONER might of picked up on this need for pitch instinctively on certain tracks.

Older zoners would know,but only react by pure intuition.

A small but significant difference .;)

[H3avyM3tal]

^When it comes down to skills, it starts by nesseccity then becomes intuition. I think that goes for everything in life.

@SaturnReturn: I am aware of what you meant and I agree. I was however refferring to specific cases (ie tracks). For example, how many of you instinctively use pitch when racing CB, and how many use putch when racing AP? The tracks are different, and each one requires different aproach to pitching, but the difference here lies in the fact that if you won't use pu on CB, you will grind the floor alot, which will result in slower times. And that is what I find interesting.

We always use pu to avoid grinding, and always use pd to avoid grinding air - which is a natural reflex of course, when not concerning brs. I just would like to have pitching play a more complex roll in the game (a different issue for a different thread I think).

On the skill matter, one example I find hard to master is using pd on the hill with the weapon pad on UM. You would naturally use pu or no pitch at all, but I find that sometimes it is better to try and go for the pad, esspeccially when the race is close. I always end up grinding the floor or else I will miss that pad.

*Sorry about misspelling words, ff isn't correcting them apperantly...

[BlochNWhitey]

About.. 100% of the time I have my pitch on SixAxis at about.. 60% if i'm remembering correctly. After realizing that sebenco needed it I pretty much have it turned on all the time. (only to turn it off during zone sessions) With the way I hold the controller, my ship is always pitched down somewhat, I find that it helps me take tighter lines and keeps my ship on the ground, instead of going up in the air when I really prefer to stay on the ground, if I need to pitch up for a BR then I'll use the D-Pad to do so.

[jan709]

pitching is like side-shifting for me, i never learnt how to use it and so i dont. But i really should. Im going to try use that pitch in the turns suggested here.

As an off topic question can someone give me a few turns where side-shifting is very important so i can train it there?

[Spece2goin]

i had to learn pitch for Zico trophy, because it helps for BR

but i didnt know it was so important. i'll leanr it like sideshift, then it will be a second nature...

i'm coming from Wipeout Fusion (in which pitch had no influence cause of Mag tracks), so it was a bit strange for me.
but now i start to control my ship to make what i want, and go where i want to, i understand what you all are talking about.

and with the pitch down speed mod thing on Pure (or pulse, idk), old zoners are all aware of pitch, which i'm not.

[Amorbis]

It might come down to two factors.
Firstly if you use the D-Pad or not - If you DO use the D-Pad then you would most likely notice HAVING to use it.
I have to agree with you there, Blackwiggle. I'm a permanent d-pad user and it is necessary to press up and down to pitch. Analogue sticks I'm guessing are different, but I have such little experience with them.

Typically I pitch where I feel necessary. I pitch to change the trajectory of my ship when using boosts, for example pulling up on Anulpha Pass to perform the shortcut on the first straight. Pitching is useful on Sol 2 forward to get more airtime to be able to pull off two barrel rolls on the track that are almost impossible without pitching.

Pitching down is a lot less common for me than pitching up. Like what has been said in the thread, pitching down is only for reducing airtime namely on Sebenco Climb and the murderous turn on Chenghou Project Forward.

Pitching is an important aspect of the game for me, but not as important as in prevois WipEout games. I think it is a good idea to try and master it to reduce lap times. Without it I'm sure some SL/TT times would be a lot slower.

[H3avyM3tal]

Amorbis, what shortcut on AP first straight are you talking about?

[Amorbis]

It's not so much of a shortcut, but you can boost over the straight with the three boost pads for an extra barrel roll by pitching up and using the turbo. That's what I do on Phantom SL/TT, I'm unsure if anyone else uses it.

[H3avyM3tal]

Oh, I know that one. True that I have not seen many people do it, but I do it every time I can. Got it from Beat Zico trophy. pu right before the speed pads where there is a small bump on the road, fly over into the tunnel and make another br.

However, you have to be precise with pitching and turning so you land right on a speed pad at the entrance to the tunnel.

[AnErare]

Pitching may not be too important in general but I feel it does add to anticipating following corners or bumps. It leaves more room to pull off better lines but that may not necessarily mean better times depending on one's chosen line.

There are a few spots though were it certainly matters, aside from the ones already mentioned. For instance where you enter the last straight on Ubermall forward going up the hill, use pitch and see what I mean. You gain fast on ships not pitching over there or pilots who are not going for a BR because you save the ship from almost jumping/catching air and leaving the AG field. Of course there are the places where pitch can cost or gain you a barrel roll but at off camber turns, very short corners and inclines and declines it can be very helpfull indeed. Also at short gaps like on vineta or bumpy corners on Sol 2 it can spare you a marginal to a quite some time, add that up to 5 laps and it may decide your winning goal. That especially goes for non-weapons races where energy is tight and speed efficiency matters the most!

[AG-wolf]

I pitch constantly; I feel like it helps throw the ship into certain corners and prepare for undulations in the track ahead. If you take a long arcing turn like in Chenghou or Sol 2, it helps you immensely if you sort of slightly rock the nose of the ship up and down.

[yeldar2097]

does anybody actually want me to finish my first post or have people got the gist of pitching?

[H3avyM3tal]

^Finish away please, good informative post :)

[Spece2goin]

yep
finish it please
it's very interesting to see how a good racer play!
there are some tips that i would discover with time, but there, it's a good save.
a way to make progress faster
ty

[lunar]

Yes please finish it Yeldar, it`s very informative.

I think pitching up adds grip for corners, but it`s not always practical to do it maybe. Also it`s essential for many of the skater tricks I think. I wish wipeout hd supported Negcons or that there was some sort of controller more suitable for doing pitch and steering at the same time - such as what actual AG pilots would use. I don`t think they would be using dpads or analogue sticks, even with motion control sensors for pitch.

[IH8YOU]

I'd say pitching on Phantom is critical to keeping ON the track when going downhill - or boosting up one - so you can retain much needed speed. (higher you fly, slower you go, sadly)

Below Phantom, pitching is EQUALLY as important - trust me as I specialize in everything outside of Phantom. (I'm a low-speed-racer) If you want to BR over the tunnel crest on Anulpha pass BELOW Rapier - you MUST pitch up, at EXACTLY the right time - do it, and you can BR every lap there. (no boost required)

Ditto that for the upper deck on the "Zico BR" - or if you're boosting on the upper deck and want to BR over other people before landing on the 4 speed pads. (boost RIGHT at the beginning and nose-up to do this)

Everyone knows the Zico combo link using a boost - don't pitch, and that's not happening.

Coming out of the tunnel on Anulpha in Rapier + (before the left hander with the 3 staggered speed pads) - if you line-arc in the middle, then mid-corner side-shift AND pull back, you can get enough air to BR through the next corner, and because you're clipping the edge of the track (a "shortcut") - you don't have to turn and lose your speed. P.S. Anulpha Pass Reverse - SAME CORNER, you can BR too - just invert the action - swing wide-mid on the corner, side-shift right, pitch back, and BR up into the tunnel.

So pitching important? My opinion? Bet yer @$$ it is. :+

[XBARNSTERX]

Reading this made me realize how much i use pitch, i use 6 axis its become so natural i dont realize im doing it. Would definitely say it makes a huge difference for some turns, hills and boost jumps etc, id recommend using it. Also have my motion sensor at 100% it that to much:lol not to sure .

[OBH]

Everyones pretty much nailed it, but ill say my 2 cents worth :)

For me personally, i learnt the art of pitching from a load of speed laps on sebenco. You lose a great deal of time over the many crests if you dont pitch down, so was ideal for me to see how much my time was improving.

once you get to grips with keeping yourself firmly on the track, you can then learn pitching for its 2nd perpose 0 pitching up off crests and barrel rolling :)

though really all you have to do is watch some of the many top quality videos people have posted, theres LOTS of pitching going on there :g

[IH8YOU]

OBH youre one of WOHD demi gods, yet you forgot the 3rd rule of pitching! As you crest a hill and br, br, br, BR, BBB RRR only to hear the half-assed wimper of an ''attempted br" as you land one MUST pitch a fit of rage. Thats the 3rd version of pitching. Im an expert in it. No badge yet...

[LOUDandPROUD]

:lol:lol:lol You're a funny guy, Anthony!

[yeldar2097]

forward tracks finished :+

[ProblemSolver]

Pitching is quite usefull. One can corner a lot better using it. But! It's rather
difficult to maintain stability upon steering and pitching at the same time
using the left analog stick, since one has to control an additional degree of
freedom (pitching) which is directly coupled with steering in this case.
Interestingly, it can be shown mathematically that such systems tend to
be unstable. The same does not hold for the d-pad, because the two degrees
of freedom are decoupled there. It would be a rather nice if we could assign
pitching to the right analog stick! I would swear to increase each of my
ZONE records by 5, at least, with ease. A really precise control of pitching is
missing for ZONE, it would help a lot! But not only for ZONE, I think it would
be an improvement for every race type. Don't forget that a lot of ppl aim with
the right analog stick in other games. Hence, lots of precision to be put to
good use!

[Connavar]

^ Yeah there is that, and also it would be nice to be able to invert LEFT and
RIGHT, so I could use the right analog stick to steer! (and use the d-pad for
weapons).

[yeldar2097]

Well spotted ProblemSolver :+
the main problem with using the stick is that (as far as i can tell) you can't 100% pitch and 100% steer at the same time. If you could change the steering sensitivty that would be helpful...then again you'd lose quite a bit of control (at least i would).
makes me wish i could use motion...

@conna: would that mean using d-pad to accelerate as well?

[H3avyM3tal]

Too many 'after' in your post, yeldar2097!!! Great post though, so all can be fogiven :p

@ProblemSolver: I never got the impression that pitching is needed in Zone, because the ship rarely grind the floor, and it never leaves the ag field to take advantage of pitching up. I am interested in why you think it could improve your zone record by that much.

[yeldar2097]

I'll change the layout or something to make it more understandable.

i'll take some screenshots/videos to demontrate :D

[Connavar]

yeldar, yeah sure the d-pad to accelerate, and as a toggle.
So you push down to accelerate (could remap the button too), then it does it
forever, and to stop accelerating you quickly push down 2-3 times.

The toggle feature would be great even with current controls...

[yeldar2097]

that's a great idea actually, it would save my thumb a lot of pain and anguish :lol

[LOUDandPROUD]

Considering acceleration is automatic in Zone mode, being able to use the right analog stick for pitch would certainly be beneficial, though it would be useless for all other modes, as you wouldn't be able to use it AND press the accelerate button at the same time.

[JABBERJAW]

If you had gas on a trigger you could, both brakes as well, and absorb. Put weapon on a face button, so there would only be one conflict, which would not be bad. or you could put absorb on the face button, so you could hit turbo and pitch at the same time

[LOUDandPROUD]

Good point...I was forgetting that you can re-map the buttons.

[ProblemSolver]

@Connavar: I haven't understood just yet why we can't (fully) change the
controls to our likely.

@H3avyM3tal: Grinding the floor isn't that much of a problem. But I have
to tell you that the ZONE craft leaves the AG field on some tracks at certain
speeds. Further, sometimes I force the craft (on certain tracks) to go off the
track by grinding up a wall to do extra BRs. However, these things don't
improve your racing line. The real deal for pitching in ZONE is for better
cornering and stability control. Steering behaves differently upon pitching
up or down, which is no secret. But also side-shifting behaves differently
depending on how you pitch the craft. There are tracks where one has to
steer, airbrake, pitch (sometimes side-shift as well) all at the same time
with high precision to master a given turn at high speeds, which is quite
pleasing if you get it right multiple times ... until it will ultimately break
down on you.

[il_mago_di_Doz]

Pitching is quite usefull. One can corner a lot better using it. But! It's rather
difficult to maintain stability upon steering and pitching at the same time
using the left analog stick, since one has to control an additional degree of
freedom (pitching) which is directly coupled with steering in this case.
Interestingly, it can be shown mathematically that such systems tend to
be unstable. The same does not hold for the d-pad, because the two degrees
of freedom are decoupled there.

Now I am so afraid that I can only use the analog.... :(:(

[yeldar2097]

Don't worry about it :D

Stick = win :g

It's hard to pitch + steer at the same time but for most places where you need to pitch it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Keep it up :+

[Koleax]

Just curious, yeldar, what places do you think are the biggest problems pitching with the stick? These places might be useful in helping people decide whether they keep the stick or learn a decoupled method.

Do you use the stick for all your BRs in Vineta K?

[yeldar2097]

I'm a stick user all the way :g

Most problematic for me are as follows: Moa Therma after the first mag, THE EVIL TURN ON CHENGHOU :bomb, metropia after the mag, last chicane on ubermall, first long right hander on sol2, after the first BR on metropia rev, the 3rd left hander onto the straight after the mag on metropia R, 1st left-hander and 2nd of the long left-handers on sol 2 rev, last corner on tech de ra, last corner on amphiseum reverse

BRs can also be an issue too when you have to pitch up massively to get enough air in order to do LRL or RLR quickly enough to BR. There are loads of these but the hardest for me are: the BR in the 2nd tunnel on vin rev, all of leungbok's ridiculous BRs on the fury tracks oO (see his youtube videos) :P

[Koleax]

Chenghou, also known as HELL (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v718/psients/wohd_20091016_224750.jpg).

I think about decoupling every time I'm in the Piranha bowl. Puts my mind at ease to know you don't use it. I remember the first time I saw you take that turn on Phantom I thought, whoa (a la Keanu Reeves).

[Vartazian]

You guys all use stick? I find D-Pad is more precise IMO.

[il_mago_di_Doz]

Don't worry about it :D

Stick = win :g

It's hard to pitch + steer at the same time but for most places where you need to pitch it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Keep it up :+
Thanks mate, knowing that a champ like you use the stick is sort of..... a relief! :D:D:D
Yesterday I tried both the methods, and I found that maybe the d-pad is more responsive in some extreme turns (like the first one in sebenco fwd, if you pitch down-left) but I feel thet the stick is more sensitive when you have to adjust the trajectory.

[yeldar2097]

If you want to know who uses what there are about 200 threads about it:
Example 1 (http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5150&highlight=control+stick)
Example 2 (http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6658&highlight=control+stick)
Example 3 (http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6356&highlight=control+stick)
Example 4 (http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5535&highlight=control+stick)
Example 5 (http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5697&highlight=control+stick)

:g

[Aeroracer]

i was always told from day one...

learn to play the track perfectly when you can do that then learn your side shifts to cut down your racing line..

then when you cant get any faster learn your pitching for those extra br's and tight cornering.

do all that and you will be a champ..:)

edit..lol..and learn your weapon pads and weapons too...and how to deal with bumbing and colisions with other ships online..:P