PS3 NeGcon - Can it be done???

[IH8YOU]

See my photo album for the carnage - warning - explicit content!

http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/album.php?albumid=33

If I can make this thing work.... :g

Edit: A bit more info to chew on - any input or ideas? Feel free to contribute! :)

Thought process currently - take the guts from a PS3 controller - and wire buttons to those inside the NeGcon. As for the NeGcon X, [] and L1 will have to be modified, as they're analogue - thinking of pulling the carbon pad out of the potentiometers and masking them so they respond as switches. (this, should be easier than rigging up a new switch to go into the existing locations) The Twist-Action of the NeGcon will remain intact, but the range of movement will be a lot tighter - 1/2 to 1/3 of original range for max-to-max - hoping to have the potentiometer replaced with one from a PS3 stick (swapping carbon pads between the bodies). As for the PS3 controller - stuffing the mainboard inside the NeGcon (this WILL BE one of my biggest challenges of this project, no doubt about it), installing 4 extra buttons (going to use mini switches for L2, R2, PS Button and Select).

Phew - my brain are dead for naow!

[Darkdrium777]

I am curious to see how or if you will manage to split the controller PCB in two halves... :o I can't for the life of me think of a way.

Good luck on your project. ;)

[blackwiggle]

I think you might have an easier time if you used one of these Saitek PS2700 controllers as a donor.

http://www.saitek.com/uk/prod/ps2700.htm

The D-Pad and Analog stick section is interchangeable, "Cyborg" they call it,you just swivel the pads 180 degrees.

It's would seem that part of the problem you face with separating the circuit board might have been solved for you?

[No, Saitek are not going to do a NeGcon type controller,I've already asked in case you were wondering :frown:]

Couldn't you remap the controls in game so that you didn't have to swap the analogue controls on the NeGcon,the R2 L2 triggers on the sixaxais are analogue,and they work perfectly well having a digital function mapped to them.

[JABBERJAW]

hey, 1/3 of the range would be good, if you cannot set the twist. Who the heck uses the negcon at 180 degrees anyway.

[AG-wolf]

you might have to use a regular sixaxis instead of a dualshock 3, the DS3 has a higher-precision potentiometer for each axis on the control sticks, so I dont know if you would be able to rewire it properly.

I could probably7 pull it off, along wiht a bunch of other obscure things Al has suggested to me other times, but I just never have the time available.

[Asayyeah]

Fascinating Project ! keep up with the good work :clap

[Lance]

hey, 1/3 of the range would be good, if you cannot set the twist. Who the heck uses the negcon at 180 degrees anyway.

I used to hit 90 degrees pretty often. Too much?

[JABBERJAW]

I would say yes lance. Arnaud sets his at zero, BUT it is not really zero, I think the minimum is 30 or so on the actual controller, because there is still play in the controller. It's better to go left right really quick, but still be accurate. This is for xl of course. For wipeout1, jeez, I think I set mine between 50-80 depending on the ship I use, and in wo3 I set it between I think 51 -67, once again depending on the ship. What are your settings for those games?

[komatos]

Couple of quick questions: how would the control boards/chipsets built into modern controllers like the DualShock/SixAxis even respond to control input from older controllers like the NegCon? Would the on-board controller even be able to recognize/parse the controller data sent to it?

Another thing, if you do get this going (which I would love to see happen since the Neggie's my best method for controlling Wipeout games): the game itself would need to be programmed to recognize that type of control input. I know HD registers D-Pad and analog stick control inputs, but does it recognize steering wheels or other similar NegCon style twisty controlling potentiometers?

[Sausehuhn]

Wasn't there somebody who got the NegCon working on PS3 trough a steering wheel or something? Or do I mix things up here?

[Motorsagmannen]

a bit off topic but:
speaking of wheel i tried my logitech G25 wheel with WO-HD some time ago, sadly i couldnt change the buttons so throttle management went out of the picture (throttle was on the x button above the gear lever, so my plan to use paddles on the wheel to airbrake also evaporated), even though it is a state of the art equipment for GT-5.
the steering looked like it worked fine but without the opportunity to remap it, the wheel was kinda pointless

[Lance]

A bit?

----------

Al, on WO3, I generally used 30 to forty. On WO1, I sometimes maxed at 175, but gradually cut it more and more to 90 and 70 [last I remember]. XL, umm.. about 15, I think.

[IH8YOU]

Okay - using a PS1/PS2 to USB adapter (a cheap, POS one) it functioned out of the box, as-is on all but the analogue BUTTONS (not the pivot, that worked for some reason)

L1, [] and X did not work, though. It's a ROYAL PITA to use in-game with HD, because you cannot access the PS menu, or even navigate ANY menu in game. In order to use it, you need to unplug the adapter, turn on a PS3 controller, select your ship, track, and start the game. Then once the game is about to start (during the count down) you need to set the PS3 controller to #2, and then power it down. Immediately after that, you plug in the USB/NeGcon adapter - and you can play providing you can live without your left airbrake, thrust and fire buttons. FWIW, I did try it on Zone mode - and it worked pretty well - except that movement was EXTREME to register anything at all in-game. (I chalk this up to no driver support - so default value is minimal response)

The PS3 controllers buttons (all of them except for Start, Select and PS button) are ALL analogue (pressure-sensitive) - they change resistance as more pressure is applied. It's no different than the older membrane-type switches - except they were looking for digital signal overall - all that was done to change these membrane-type switches to "analogue" was to round the contact pads off - so that light pressure results in less contact area across the forks - creating a higher resistance. This higher resistance is "seen" as an analogue value. Press harder on the button, and more contact area is applied - lowering the resistance - which is "seen" as a stronger analogue value.

Knowing this - and the fact that the buttons in the NeGcon are membrane-type (except for the L1, [] and X) - they should be directly compatible. (Dpad, R1, T, O)

As for the analogue sticks on the PS3 controller - those are 2 axis potentiometers on a spring pivot - you have an X pot and a Y pot - as you move around, the resistance changes relative to angular position - which is "seen" as an analogue signal.

The NeGcon used this type of method long before the PS controller ever had sticks - the Twist mechanism, L1, [] and X all have a potentiometer attached. The buttons use a spring and rail - as you depress them, a cog on the pot registers the movement. The twist mechanism has a cog coupled to the pivoting axis of the controller. The twist mechanism I'm going to simply couple into the X-axis of the left analogue stick of the PS3 controller.

As for the NeGcon analogue buttons - those I'm still deciding how to tackle. I'm going to power up my PS3 controller and measure the values seen across L1, [] and X at "idle" and at full-pressure. I'm going to compare those values to the potentiometers in the same locations on the NeGcon. if they're ballpark, I'll either shunt or series them with fixed resisters to get the value exact. My other option could be to replace the pots with pots of a better match, OR to replace the pots in those locations with membrane-type switches.

[d4onps]

Wow, impressive work mate, keep it up, I hope it works out. If you do manage to get it working fully, would you consider converting mail-ins?

[WolfKill01]

...I'm sorry, but i can't imagine why someone would want to rip apart a perfectly good controller. Though i suppose you have you have a pretty good reason. Good luck with your project. I hope you get it to work. ;)

[IH8YOU]

Absolute worst-case scenario - I can restore both controllers to their as-built configuration.

Next - this NeGcon had some SERIOUS mileage/wear, and some sticky fluid, to boot. (buttons got stuck down a lot)

My PS3 controller IS fubar - though I tolerated it for a long while - it's about time I try to get a functional controller out of it - and if I can't - probably better to have it scrapped entirely. (D-pad L and R also triggers up and down at random - painfully obvious when trying to enter text)

Anyhow - the NeGcon feels so much better in my hands - and if I can work it with the PS3 - could be very fun to use. :+

[BulletWraith]

(sorry guys this might sound like a lotta dribble for mosta you so you might not want to delve into this one)

I can't believe I Missed this thread, I've chalked up many ideas for a PS2(long time ago)/PS3 neGcon type controller to work with any game, me sucking at electronics(failed the half year I did of it at school) I tried swapping the potentiometer from the neGcon into the left sticks R/L pot
this didn't work to well at all
and since I bought a few broken DSII's to muck about with I cut one right down the middle and came to the conclusion that it was way more comfortable having swivelling DS then to use a neGcon (a harsh truth for me)

from what I can tell the DS3 board is pretty small, so I figure just move the board as far as you can inside the controller to the left so it's half sitting under the D-Pad then cut the DS3 in half but not straight down the middle, cut right down the centre of the of the Start button, in this cut will be transplanted the neGcon Swivel bit or what I'd do would be to try to jam in a Ball Bearing with the left sticks x-axis pot inside it in their

to me this seems allot easier than transplanting the innards into a neGcon, if I were to do a transplant I would probably be to lazy
I'd just rip out the innards from a sixaxis, cram them into a tiny black plastic box, strap that to my left wrist and wire all the inputs from the box into the neGcons cord
not very elegant but it would get the job done

-zer0shen out

(PS about the range of motion, I thought allot about that, two things: you could try and find a Pot with the same input range that has a great range of motion or use a couple cogs to lengthen out the motion)

[IH8YOU]

Zer0 - I came to many of the same thoughts and conclusions you have (even with relocating the mainboard inside the DS3 and sawing / installing a bearing assembly)

But - after having my hands on a NeGcon - my GOD do they feel good! I'm a d-pad guy, and this d-pad is big, fat and accurate. Everything the PS d-pad is not.

Then having a precision analogue steering input for the fine lines you don 't want to decelerate on - it's MADE for Wipeout. Wish I actually sought one out back in the days of Psygnosis - as it was all over the Wipeout documentation.

Anyhow - today is plot values of my DS3 day. Going to fire up the o-scope, DMM and start button mashing. Depending on my results - will determine how I'm going to use the analogue L1, S and X buttons.

*holds breath*

[BulletWraith]

couple quick thoughts

about the d-dap I fully agree, lol one of my sketches places the neGcons D-pad into the DS3, yesterday I was looking at Fighting game pads made for the PS3 to see if I could locate one with a good D-pad for conversion options, I hear great things about the Madcats Streetfighter pad but also negative stuff about its reliability

you might have seenmy lame concept (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddMet8mPmIo) for a new neG ages ago
I think it would work really well as it would get the sixaxis sensor centred and controllable whilst steering

if anyone has broken Black neG's they should send them your way, if mine ever karks it it's yours

it's so nice finding someone on a similar wavelength but with the proper knowledge and tools to do the ideas justice
perhaps you've intercepted some of the thought's I've been puking into the cosmic either


ahh one more thing about the DS3 over a neGcon, the force feedback is another reason I would use a DS3, not much room for the lil motor's in the neG, I find the feedback provides an important element in immersion into what I'm playing



sorry another thing
ever thought of gutting a Hori Zerotech (http://technabob.com/blog/2007/05/01/zero-tech-3-racing-controller-coming-for-ps3/) for the parts? they're ace!


good day to you sir
-zer:donutshen

[IH8YOU]

Project not dead - still working on it. Boss making me work tons of OT - speaking of - time to sleep, have work in 5 hours. Bah.

I predict tomorrow will happen like this:
:turd :paperbag ::( :coffee :coffee :?:coffee :coffee :coffee :eek :dizzy :bomb :brickwall :paperbag

After all that - PS3 controller time.

[Sausehuhn]

:coffee :coffee :coffee :eek :dizzy

Ehehehe. I know that feeling ;)

[element42]

I've just seen this (http://www.kellbot.com/2009/05/life-size-katamari-lives/) and I don't know why I didn't think of it before. Surely we could use an arduino to convert the Negcon output into something the PS3 could use?
An arduino is a great little microcontroller that you can program to do virtually anything assuming you have the electronics knowledge to build the appropriate circuit - which I don't, really!

I guess it would be easier to convert to a PS2/PS1 controller output and wire it in to a PS2 -> PS3 usb converter dongle. Some interesting info here (http://www.geocities.com/digitan000/Hardware/22/e22_page.html)... will have to work on this.

[IH8YOU]

You had to do that.... Pandoras box is open.

Thanks for the info - I will put this into consideration.

Approach thus-far has been to hybrid both controllers, as I do lack the programming, micro-controller / PIC expertise required for that. (though with guidance I'm able to do it, as I have done so before)

Oh yes - for everyone - the project is not dead - been busy month - serious family related things dealing with. Will resume once life returns to "normal".

[RDC]

Hope the OP doesn't mind, seems like the place to ask this instead of starting up a new thread.

How would you guys want it setup versus the PS3 controller? because there are going to be some limitations..

In WipEout HD for example, the steering and pitch is controlled by the left stick, and this can't be duplicated with the neGcon, it lacks the second Axis (up/down) that a Stick has and adding in buttons to duplicate it isn't really a serious option as that isn't Analog and ya loose the precision, it's doable, but not how I'd prefer to go about it. Also using the Tilt function for that is right out as twisting the neGcon will play havoc with the Accelerometer (if kept internal) or be useless if the board is left out of the neGcon, so either way that's no option.


Since the PS3 controller has 17 buttons and 4 axis in total versus the neGcon's 11 button and 1 Axis, some things are going to have to either go or be dealt with in some fashion to make it even half usable for some games and almost sure to cripple it for others. Adding in the Select and PS buttons are not a big deal at all, neither is getting around the common ground setup of the neGcon versus the 3 common line setup of the PS3 controller, nor is adding any additional buttons to make up for the neGcon's lack thereof, but Axis are another thing, as are maintaining the majority of the PS3 controller buttons Analog feature.

Stripping the neGcon and 'piggy backing' it onto a PS3 controller isn't the real issue, it's getting it setup to actually be usable in a game that is the PITA since it's really a half controller half steering wheel, or 1/3 of what a normal PS3 controller is capable of, and since the game doesn't know you're using the neGcon it can't reconfigure itself for using it properly, like it can on the PS1 where in game ya have control over it's settings, as far as the PS3 is concerned you're using a PS3 controller.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neGcon.jpg

..this is just the Twist and I/II buttons wired up to the Left Stick (left/right) and R1/R2 for a quickie test in MotoGP '08 (demo, and yes, yes I know it's not WipEout, apologies for that, just fired it up for a test is all ;) ). There's no LED lit up on the controller either because all of them have been removed.

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/?action=view&current=neGcon022.flv


I plan to mess around slowly on this project, tinker on it from time to time as I have another project in the works that's taking up my real play/hack time, and I may take this in a different direction once I get some time to really spend on it, I'll have to wait and see on that one.

Also, just so anyone that's interested knows, there are at present 10 versions of known wireless PS3 controllers (none really like any PS controller layout before it) and any of them can be used for something like this. The major version changes are different from each other with each having it's advantage/disadvantage to using it, which makes it an even bigger mess, so if ya have any serious aspirations about doing this be prepared to do some research and a lot of figuring some things out, like the newer 4 leg 'Digital POTs', which aren't anything more than Hall Effect sensors and Op-Amps, almost identical to Dreamcast controllers, and it all boils down to the exact same thing in the end as what the Potentiometer did in there once ya figure it all out. ;) The controller used in the above pic/vid is one of the newer DS3 versions, MSU_3.5X 1.14, that has the newer Digital POTs.

Getting the PS3 controller stuffed into the neGcon is pretty much right out as well, not without really hacking down and rebuilding the PS3 controller, I could probably get it stuffed in there (I managed to get a wired 360 controller into a PS3 shell, a few times ;) ) but even then that's only half of the battle as ya still have the battery to deal with, so keeping it external is really the best way to go.

I agree that using some type of PIC/MCU/AVR would be the best way to go, but even then it would have to either be connected to some PS3 controller to work, unless the PS3 controller protocols are out there, and even then it'll have to be modeled after one controller or another. Doing it that way the neGcon can be kept 100% intact plus you'd have carte blanche over what did what and could put back in the sensitivity and dead zone options (on the control box) that the game lacks because it's going on the fact that a PS3 controller is being used, but as IH8YOU touched on, that takes some serious programming/coding skillz to pull off, where as a hardware hack isn't that difficult, as the crappy vid above already shows, but even it lacks in some places for certain things, so both ways are viable options with their own advantages/disadvantages.

[RDC]

Here's a short WipEout vid to make up for the MotoGP one. ;)

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/?action=view&current=neGcon023.flv

[JABBERJAW]

I thik the main thing is getting the twist to work correctly, at 90 degrees maximum. IF this works, there are enough options for the rest. dpad can control pitch and barrel rolls. I would take ALL out of the negcon, and put in pushbuttons (small), all coming out in wire fashion to the other controller (soldered to board), then that controller is plugged in as usual. This way, no lag, but it will be a frankenstein controller.

[Darkdrium777]

About the axis missing for pitch: as you control the direction or steering of the ship with the twist, your left hand rests free on the D-Pad, and therefore can control pitch using the D-Pad itself (The up and down arrows), so that is not a problem. In this way it will in fact work just like it used to back in the day.

As for the missing trigger buttons, you have chat and look back. Chat is unimportant, as it simply doesn't work, so it can be left out. Look back, well let's think about it. We know that since version 1.30 the select button can no longer be binded (and it's not even on the negcon anyways), and all the other controls are essential (D-Pad left and right, X, O, [], airbrakes, start). So what is left? The triangle button. Triangle is change camera, but this can be set prior in the game options and is no longer needed during gameplay. So if we set look back on the negcon to be one of the buttons on the right part (the equivalent of triangle button), then we have all the controls needed mapped onto the pad. As you said, motion is right out, so again we don't need to think about it.

This results in a controller configuration like this:
http://f.imagehost.org/t/0635/PS3NegConLayout.jpg (http://f.imagehost.org/view/0635/PS3NegConLayout)

While I was shooping Al posted, D-Pad can take care of barrel rolls as well. We can also have along the wire somewhere, if we put in a wire, a button for the PS button, and one for select as well, a lot like earphones with volume control, but it will be buttons instead of a knob. Or directly on the controller somewhere if you feel like drilling a hole in the precious shell (Which I would not do, as negCons are limited in numbers, and if you ever feel like putting the original controller back together well...)

[JABBERJAW]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Microsoft-SideWinder-Dual-Strike-Game-Controller_W0QQitemZ270394388589QQihZ017QQcategory Z74943QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

this pos controller could be the answer

thrustmaster dual strike controller

I just made the twist work !!! After I connected the three analog wires to the analog wires of the twist mechanism in the dual strike controller. It hit all of the angles without any choppiness. it did take a full turn to hit all the angles though, but this is a very good start. The controller itself is a PC controller, but all 8 buttons work for wipeout HD, so I will need to modify the negcon somewhat with holes, but that is ok. The buttons will need to be soldered to the board as well, since the buttons on that **** controller are switches directly on the board, and it will be a close call if they will fit into the negcon. the dpad on this controller is ASS, so I need to figure something out wtih that as well.

If you take apart a negcon, DO NOT REMOVE the twist gears. It %#%s up the entire thing, and even when put back together made a mess.

I am going to try and hook up to the wheel I had to see if that turns a little faster. Then I will try the wired ps3 controller again, not that the new negcon twisting mechanism is working fine.

[RDC]

I've had this one apart more than a few times already, no issues at all with it if ya put it back together the right way, the gears have a key, just line them up and it's fine.


Thanks for the replies guys, I'm honestly not a WipEout gamer (only have the demo to test it with) but a good controller hack I just can't pass up, which is why I'm tinkering with this thing.

I don't plan to drill into the shell any and stuffing it full of Tact switches isn't really my thing either. I've removed all of the components from the boards in the neGcon, minus the essentials, and am using the actual board that's in it for the button contacts and such. I did the same for the PS360 controller and others that I've done in the past, this keeps the controller feeling exactly like an original does, instead of it 'clicking' every time ya press a button or having to go thru the pain of making up custom ones. Every button on the PS3 controller is Analog anyway, so the ones in the neGcon that use the POTs are really no different at all and work just fine.

I've figured out how to get the Twist to actually have a few different sensitivity settings, just need to test it out more and get the values nailed down there, but making it so it maxes out at 90 will be pretty easy. One could just change the value of the POT in there from 10k to something around 5k or so and that would do the same thing, but I'm after having a few at least without having to go thru that mess if one isn't working out.

Adding any missing buttons is doable as they can stay on the box that will hold the PS3 controller along with the Twist sensitivity switches, so it's all good so far. ;)

[JABBERJAW]

there isn't a way to change the sensitivity easily, is there? how did you do it?

ACTUALLY, the sensitivity somewhere between 45-60 would probably be better. I said 90 as an abosolute maximum turn, otherwise, it's not fast enough for wipeout

[RDC]

This is where I'm at with it right now..

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neGcon034.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neGcon035.jpg

That 10k POT in there has to go, it's just way too high a value to get the sensitivity down that low. A 5k POT for starters would be a much better starting point, then if need be it can be modified down to be more sensitive like I did with the 10k one.

Right now I have to go to around 100 on it to get a full turn out of it, and that's as sensitive as I can get it with that 10k POT in there as ya can only fudge it so far before it's starts to either get screwy on ya or just doesn't work, and yeah it does need to be more sensitive than that, but changing the POT to a lower value is the only way to do that while staying in the hardware hacking realm.

I'm off to hunt some catalogs for a good replacement. ;)

[IH8YOU]

My I suggest a NON-LINEAR taper pot - these have fine motor control within the centroid area, but near the edges of the wipers (last 1/2 or 1/3 depending on what you order) it skyrockets.

Would be ideal for your situation, so centroid is maintained with repeatable accuracy - but outer swing responds sharply in the function of a square.

[JABBERJAW]

http://www.happ.com/amusement/acesor/repopts.htm


Would any of these work? some are actually namco.

[RDC]

@ JABBERJAW - All of those POTs are HUGE by comparison to what's already in the neGcon, size wise that is.

@ IH8YOU - That'll give it a big 'dead spot' in the center and without a precise Taper versus turn ratio it would be much worse as you'd have to turn it more and not less, so Linear is still the way to go here. We just have to change the 10k one in there out for a little lower value one as that 10k just isn't cutting it. Another thing that could be done here is to change the gearing ratio, but you'd have to fashion your own gears and then you'd run the risk of twisting the controller further than the POT could go and cause damage to one, the other or both.

Every other POT in the neGcon is a Logarithmic, with all 10k taking place within a short distance from one end and is why they can be used on the PS3 controller and still maintain the Analog function. I may wire up the PS3 box so the I and II buttons can be switched between X/[ ] and L2/R2 for any games that would use the Triggers as gas/brake, but for now getting it 100% functional in WipEout is the main concern.

The D-pad is now wired up, as are the rest of the buttons, the Pitching works fine, though the demo doesn't have a track to get enough air on to try a roll, but the left/right functions are there and work. The Right Airbrake is Digital while the Left Airbrake is Analog, that's how the neGcon is made, but it still works as most times when a Button/Trigger is pulled it's pulled all the way, so them being different really doesn't make much difference there, and with the controller constantly being twisted all over the place that makes it even harder to use the Analog one in that capacity anyway.

I'll know in a week or so how the new 5k POT will work out on the Twist, much better than the 10k for sure as the modifications I did on the 10k in there now were promising, just not quite enough. I'll let ya guys know and post up a new vid of it then as well with the 5k in there.

[lunar]

Here's a short WipEout vid to make up for the MotoGP one. ;)

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/?action=view&current=neGcon023.flv

How did I miss this? You were just playing wipeout hd with a negcon :eek

// Kleenex moment here.

Anyway, best of luck with it all and thanks for your effort. I would think the problem with a Negcon on this game would activating barrel rolls. Is there any way that left/right on the dpad could be used for steering also, so could be used for BR input? I`m not sure if that`s a good idea.

I can`t offer any technical help as I`m worse than useless with that sort of thing, but if I can help out by sending a tired old negcon for parts just let me know.

[RDC]

The D-pad already does the same thing as the Left Stick on the PS3 controller, steering and pitch, so using it to barrel roll should work just fine.

[IH8YOU]

I hate dead-zones - the dead-zones on the PS analogue sticks is precisely why I don't use them.

Having worked with other hardware that has next to ZERO dead-zone (all I can say is it's not civilian based hardware) - it's painful to use anything that has one now.

My solution was to shunt down the centroid to minimize deadzone, yet retain the gain ratio needed. I also had changing the gear ratio inside the pot drives to also expand reaction.

I found that without any software - the negcon must be twisted to the extremes for approximately 40% max-max in game rendering. I know official in-game support would completely eliminate this - but having next to zero coding experience, and wanting to skip using any controllers / interfaces - I'm going with a physical modification to the neggie.

Very interested in your route, too - so please keep up the bumping here.

[AG-wolf]

I'd be willing to help out on this, but it's been a dog's age since I did any sort of serious circuit-level electronics BS. I don't see why people can't improvise something in which the axis of the NeGcon is mapped to the L/R axis on the left control stick, up and down are mapped to either max tilt of the U/D axis of the left control stick or just d-pad U/D; the POTs of L and R wired to the pressure-sensitive traces of L1/2 and R1/2, and the POTs of I and II wired to the traces of X and []... just figure out the resistance value of the conductive pads of the buttons on the ps2 controller and replace the I and II POTs in the NeGcon with ones of the same value as the pads.

I've been doing some custom controller mods recently and one of my first project was wiring a PS2 Dual Shock 2 into a module box so I can re-wire other controllers as if they were a PS2 controller... I've been using a model 1 US/EUR Sega Saturn controller for Wipeout HD for the last couple weeks :P

This could be done relatively easilly...

[RDC]

Uh, that has all already been done, the video there proves the concept of it and I've already wired up everything else to it. I'll post up a new vid of everything else working, can't now as it's half torn down to swap out the 10k Twist POT with a 5k (soon as it shows up) because the range there is way off.

It's designed to turn almost a full 180 degrees and geared so the POT in there covers that range, so nothing happens when ya translate that to the Sticks X-Axis until ya hit the mid point or so of the Twist. It's like having a large wheel on a car versus a small wheel, if ya make 1 full rotation the car with the large wheel will have traveled much farther than the one with the small wheel, but each has only made 1 rotation. Likewise, the POTs used in the PS3 controllers versus the one in the neGcon have a different range as well, the PS3 controller stick only has to travel a short distance to cover that 10k range, where the neGcon POT has to turn almost 180 degrees to cover that same range, so we need a smaller wheel. ;)

The D-pad already works the same as the Left stick, so as soon as it's wired up it can do Pitch and BRs.

All of the buttons on the PS2/3 controllers are Analog (save the stick buttons, Select, Back and Analog/Home) and the I/II and L of the neGcon are as well (R is Digital, just on or off) so they can be (and have already) wired right up to the PS3 controller for use and still maintain that Analog. The traces on the PS2/3 controllers aren't pressure sensitive exactly, they're Resistors, and the more ya press on them the lower the value gets, so they work more like a 10k~20k Variable Resistor (depends on the controller) down to 300ohms or so when fully pressed, but any description works in place for them, Analog, Pressure Sensitive, POT or Variable Resistor, just as long as ya know what they do in there and how to mimic it if need be. ;)

The I, II and L button pots are Logarithmic POTs, kinda a pain to find them now and then to get one in the right size or a usable one would be more of a chore. The ones in there are 10k and that's what the PS3 controller buttons are as well, so it worked out, but even if the values were slightly off it still may have worked because of how they're used. They're basically just Pull-Ups, so they go from a high value to a low one when pressed, and everything in between, so anything around 10k should work fine, even on the PS2 controller where they're around 15~20k. I always though this was a pretty ignorant idea as ya have maybe 2mm of travel there, not much range to be very accurate, where the neGcon has close to 7mm of travel on the I and II buttons and around 5mm or so for L, which translates to being a whole lot more precise with the value ya can get out of the POT on there. Same with the 'Twist' of the neGcon, ya have a much larger 'bullseye' to hit compared to using a stick, so ya can be more precise with it, after getting over the learning curve of using it that is. ;)

The PS3 controller, especially the latter versions, are a completely different animal from a PS2 controller also. The 'Digital POTs' (uses Hall Effect sensors and Op-Amps instead of 10k potentiometers) are one thing, there are 3 separate common lines in the PS3 controllers. If the Daughter board is removed the controller will act up something awful, this is because it has 2 Pull-Up Resistors on it and they need to be put back in the circuit for the controller to function properly, and on the latter versions they've done away with the Daughter board connector and used carbon pads so that the connection is made only when the controller is together, so ya have to either leave it together or solder the Resistors to the board. Also on the very latest version of DS3 they have done away with all of the TP spots, so there aren't any easy places at all to solder to on that puppy except 1, the Daughter board contacts.

As soon as the XS forums are back up (I post over there as RDC as well) I'll post a link to all the PS3 controller versions and major differences between them that I've noticed, it should be of help for any of ya that are attempting this or anything like it with a PS3 controller.



In case anyone is curious, I've done a lot of custom controller work already, most of it just to see if I could and that's the main reason I'm having a go at this one. ;)

I've stuffed a DS3 (DualShock 3) into a 360 controller shell (on several occasions ;) ) also put a Wireless 360 controller in an XBOX Duke shell, put a Wired 360 controller into an XBOX S-controller shell, put a Wired 360 controller into a PS3 controller shell, put a PS3 D-pad in the 360 shell, swapped the D-pad and Left stick on a 360 controller (so it's in a PS style layout) and swapped the ABXY and D-pad on another one for a more 'complete' SouthPaw controller, as well as made arcade stick boxes for both 360 and PS3 controllers, so I should make a good run on this one, just have to smooth out the bumps, or in this case get that close to 180 degree of max twist to play ball in a 75 to 90 degree range (hence the POT change) The more ideas, input and such the better though, as there's always another way to skin that cat and some are better than others.

3PS60 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/3PS60_v2/3PS60_v2018.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/3PS60_v2/3PS60_v2023.jpg

PS360 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/PS360/PS360055.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/PS360/PS360BST005.jpg

360PS - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/360PS/360PS040.jpg

Duke360 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/Custom%20Controllers/360DukeProto010.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/Custom%20Controllers/360DukeProto034.jpg

36D - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/Custom%20Controllers/PS360D-pad024.jpg

Sinister - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/Custom%20Controllers/Greggg2.jpg

Arcade Stick module boxes..

360 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/Arcade%20Sticks/SwapBox360008.jpg

PS3 - http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/Arcade%20Sticks/SwapBoxPS3010.jpg

[lovedr]

i like to say that i understand most of whats been said in this thread - but i'd be lying, however i am following the progress intently.

...there are some seriously enviable skill sets out there amongst you guys, well done with progress so far and many hearty thanks for making this project a reality.

</wet dream>

[AG-wolf]

already worlds ahead of anything I have the time/patience/resources to do lol :P I understand all the stuff you're saying but I no longer have the knowledge to put it to practical use. I used to be able to look at written schematics and build them physically, and vice-versa. I just dropped most of my electronics interest about like 7 years ago.

Good luck, then, since it seems like you've already got everything covered :D

I am a bit curious how you wired your 360 and PS3 arcade stick module boxes, though, as that's actually what I'm in the process of doing right now myself :P Finished the PS3 one, but it's actually got a dual-shock 2 inside of it, and I use a PS2-USB adapter to use it on my ps3. THe wired 360 box is what I'm in the middle of right now... I wish I could get things done on such a small scale like you did, but I can't be bothered to really make things so compact. The three common lines in the dual shock 2 were a pain until I figured out why I was getting quirky behavior :P

[RDC]

I am a bit curious how you wired your 360 and PS3 arcade stick module boxes, though, as that's actually what I'm in the process of doing right now myself :P Finished the PS3 one, but it's actually got a dual-shock 2 inside of it, and I use a PS2-USB adapter to use it on my ps3. THe wired 360 box is what I'm in the middle of right now... I wish I could get things done on such a small scale like you did, but I can't be bothered to really make things so compact. The three common lines in the dual shock 2 were a pain until I figured out why I was getting quirky behavior :P

Not really a whole lot to them, just wire them up to a connector with enough pins for both wires for every switch you're using in the Arcade Stick is all. I personally can't stand using 3rd party controllers and always use first party ones though. Ton of info on the 360 as well as the PS3 controllers at XS I've compiled too.

The only thing ya really need is a connector with enough pins so that ya have access to both lines from every button that's gonna be in the Arcade Stick, that means 8 for the Joy and 2 for each button. This way you can plug up whatever controller ya feel like as the layout of it makes not one lick of difference since ya have access to both lines from every button. If ya go wiring up the thing in the layout that the controller uses all bets are off for using it with other controller boards because they're gonna have a different layout, so ya take care of that in the module/box while ya keep both lines of every button of the Arcade Stick separate, then ya never have to worry about it and can make a controller module/box for anything ya feel like really. There would be no way at all for the 360 and PS3 ones I made to work in the same housing if I wired up the Arcade Stick connector side in one or the other controller's button layout, as the PS3 has a 3 Common line setup, while the 360 controller I used was the CG (Common Ground) one. That means a bigger connector, but in the long run it pays off as ya can make a new module/box with whatever controller ya feel like and it'll still work in yer Arcade Stick.

[JABBERJAW]

I'm out. I tried it in a wheel, that microsoft twist thing and a wired ps3 pad, but it's the same in all, even when I tried the sensitivity function of the wheel, no dice. I think the new pot might work though, if I could find one to fit the thing that is. I did rip one out of that pc controller I used, but have no idea what the k is

Wehre do you find these variable pots that will work in the negcon? sites? I thought I found one that was going to work perfectly in a wheel I had for the ps2, but it turned out to be 10k. Then found one in the raCcon, but that was 5k, but it was too small

[RDC]

Wehre do you find these variable pots that will work in the negcon? sites? I thought I found one that was going to work perfectly in a wheel I had for the ps2, but it turned out to be 10k. Then found one in the raCcon, but that was 5k, but it was too small

Never said that I did exactly, just that I have one on order to see if it will. Places like Mouser, Digikey, Newark and the like are great sources off all kinds of electronic components, provided ya can sift thru all of the different kinds and find the one that will or is most likely to work, means looking at heaps of datasheets, and knowing what at least some of it means. ;)

I've also noticed at least 2 versions of the neGcon so far, and they use slightly different style POTs as well, so there's that issue to deal with too.

[AG-wolf]

http://www.electronics123.co.za/
Granted it's out of south africa, so probably not very local to any of us here; but I've used them on more than one occasion to order low quantities of arbitrary components for wicked cheap, and shipping was very cheap too. Their site seems a little unresponsive atm, I hope they're still up...

[Darkdrium777]

They're still up.

[JABBERJAW]

someone help me a little here. I have the negcon pot. this is a 10k not sure on the degrees. I have also found

1) 10k 240 deg

2) 10k 140 deg

3) 10k 90 deg


does the 10k stand for how long the controller starts to work (getting past the dead zone)?, and the degrees is until max turn? I don't quite get it yet. What if I had a 5k at 120 deg, would that be better or worse than the others? This is the first time I have dealt with anything analog, so I am learning on the go here.

Oh, i am ripping these things out of wheels/joysticks that I do not use anymore, and just realized that those foot pedals may have less resistance, or less of a turning radius. I'm going to check them out

[AG-wolf]

10k means ten kilo-ohms, it's the maximum resistance value of the pot. I imagine 90/140/240 should be the twist of the spindle... figure divide the 90/140/240 in half, since zero-twist on the negcon is the halfway point of its internal pot, and that's the number of degrees you are able to twist in either direction. If they are linear pots, the resistance will increase/decrease at a steady rate depending on which way it is twisted, but if they're logarithmic, the value increases and decreases on a curve. I'm sure RDC said somewhere in this post whether the twist pot is linear or logarithmic... but I guess you'd have to look for one with the same value as the left/right axis pot in the dual shock... and even then, the control stick never tilts as far as the pot is able to actually move, it's only using a percentage of the total range... blah blah blah variable after variable after variable :dizzy

[JABBERJAW]

then 90 should be great, if it works. 45 degrees each direction. I'll try it tomorrow.

[RDC]

Dunno what I was thinking with changing the value to 5k, it's used as a voltage divider in there, so lowering the value isn't gonna do dink, so I have a pretty useless part on the way here now, aka back to the drawing board.

The only issue with swapping it to a lower turning radius one is you'll be able to turn the neGcon more than the POT can, and that can/will damage the POT, and in the heat of game play it's extremely likely to happen before ya know it. It'll really depends on how the thing is setup internally though, if it's still able to turn the full 240 degrees, but only 90 of it is actual Resistance, then ya should be good with that, though 90 may make it really touchy as it maxes the turn out before the POT hits it's max movement.

[AG-wolf]

not gonna work that way, unfortunately. THe NeGcon's stock pot has a very long swing, and then you set the max-travel point in-game with games that recognize its center/dead/stationary point. There might be a way around that, but it would require some crazy kind of work. I think it might be a kind of trial-and-error thing at this point, and work with one obstacle at a time lol :P

[RDC]

not gonna work that way, unfortunately. THe NeGcon's stock pot has a very long swing, and then you set the max-travel point in-game with games that recognize its center/dead/stationary point. There might be a way around that, but it would require some crazy kind of work. I think it might be a kind of trial-and-error thing at this point, and work with one obstacle at a time lol :P

What way isn't going to work? If the POT is changed with one that has a shorter rotational angle it will 'sort of' work, but ya run the risk of damaging the POT and possibly the gears in the neGcon if the new POT is setup internally to have stops at the 90 degree marks, if it can travel the full 300 degrees, but the 10k is kept in the 90 degree range from center (5k to each side) then it will work without causing any damage. The POTs used on the controller's sticks have a much larger rotational angle than where the Resistive part of the element is, they work on a 45 degree angle, but can turn much further than that, the sticks design just doesn't let them and the 10k is kept in that 45 degree area.

Since the PS3 doesn't support the controller there is no way to set the dead zone and max range of the twisting in game, so that's not even an option, nor is it an option with a POT as that would take a variable, variable resistor.

About the only real way to go about it is to leave the POT that's in there, then use a PIC and DAC to take that Analog signal, convert it to digital so ya can do whatever ya need to with it, adjust the dead zone and set the max range, then go back to Analog via the DAC. That's a mess, and would require a good deal of coding to get done up, but it's doable and would give ya control over the twisting setting the same as an in game option would, but if you're going to go to that extent ya may as well code up the thing to just recognize the entire controller and just make up an adapter to interface with a PS3 controller.

As it is right now it takes around 200 degrees of rotation from a full left turn to a full right one with the 10k POT in there, and the only way to lower that staying in the hardware realm is to change the gearing or use a POT with a different rotational angle, but both methods cause the problem of being able to twist the neGcon further than the POT can, so while it's an option, it's just not the best one.

[JABBERJAW]

My 90 degree pot 10k Turns the same amount as the negcon (the bar spin). So does this mean max turn is at 90, and the rest is nothing. This wouldn't damage the pot either.

I think this is going to take alot of testing, and damaging alot of crap :)

It's worth the effort if it works


Just thinking here:

1) max turn (if labeled) = max turn of potentiometer, even if the bar keeps spinning further

2) nuber of K = How quickly it starts to turn

Would this make sense?

[RDC]

You'll have to put the meter on them and see exactly how they work, there's just a lot of different tapers and layouts, but checking it with a meter will let ya know how it's really working for sure.

Every other POT in the neGcon is a Log POT, even though the things are marked with a 'B' which is for Linear, so always check it, then check it again, and write down what it is and how it works versus the original 10k POT.

[JABBERJAW]

Have you tried the other pots in the negcon? I know they swing the same distance, but the max turn could be different, and the labeling (one of the numbers) on them is different as well, between the button,trigger, and twist. I think the trigger travels the least distance. It is possible here that the button pots might reach max in considerably less distance. I'll have to try this too. I didn't get to try it today. I have a HUGE mess to clean up right now, but am excited (until it fails) to try it. The number on the pot thing I got from the insides of the black negcon. I don't think these numbers were even written on the american one. Otherwise, I wouldn't have ever thought of trying it.

[AG-wolf]

it would be a lot easier for a couple people at studio liverpool to just sit and make a patch for WOHD that can recognize a NeGcon with a USB adapter. lol

[RDC]

Have you tried the other pots in the negcon? I know they swing the same distance, but the max turn could be different, and the labeling (one of the numbers) on them is different as well, between the button,trigger, and twist. I think the trigger travels the least distance. It is possible here that the button pots might reach max in considerably less distance. I'll have to try this too. I didn't get to try it today. I have a HUGE mess to clean up right now, but am excited (until it fails) to try it. The number on the pot thing I got from the insides of the black negcon. I don't think these numbers were even written on the american one. Otherwise, I wouldn't have ever thought of trying it.


The POTs on the Trigger and I/II buttons are Logarithmic, they have all 10k 'bunched up' close to one end of the POT, so it only has to turn a very short distance, and they don't start from the center point. The Twist POT is Linear, which means the 10k is spread over the entire travel of the POT and it's used as a voltage divider, so it sits at the mid point and goes + or - depending on which way it's turned. If you put a Log POT in place on a Linear one in this case (voltage divider) all you'll accomplish is making it turn in one direction on it's own since all of the Resistance is 'lopsided' in a Log POT, you'd have to twist it 9/10 of the way in one direction before it would center.

[JABBERJAW]

If you could set them up grinding opposite each other it would work then? If you got it to start at 0? out of my capability though.

[JABBERJAW]

sorry for double post, but possible breakthrough


I tried the 10k 90 degree angle. I just turned the pot with my hand, and it seems there is almost no dead zone, and the max turn to either side is 45 degrees. This would mean the 90 degree angle is what this means, 45 to both sides. Also, the swing radius is the same as a regular negcon pot, and when turning past the 45 degree mark, it just stayed at max. This is also very good. I'm not sure where I got that pot out of. dohh!! wait, it might have been from a thrustmaster joystick, the twist handle one maybe

I then tried a 50k and there was a huge dead zone, but when it turned it was smooth.

I then tried a 1 meg from a paddle from the atari 2600. It worked, but there was a large dead zone

I then tried the button pot from the negcon, and it does turn left and right. It seemed there was a dead zone, but it was smaller than the original negcon pot, not sure though, need to test further tonight. It also may be the longer one. the trigger has a smaller amount to turn before it is full.

I still have the raccon one to test, but it does not swing far, and I am not sure what the k is on that

I still have to try a different 5k one I found in another controller. This one is small though

I still have to try a 5k larger one I found from radio shack

there are some others as well, but they do not seem promising

I am hopefully going to test more tonight

[RDC]

The last thing I tried was cutting the trace in the POT at dead center, setting up a 22k voltage divider and letting the POT then drop/raise it, that worked pretty good, maxed the turns at 45 and 45, but there's just about no dead zone at all and controlling the thing is a nightmare with it like that, works best with a 20k divider, but ya have to go close to 90 to get a full turn out of it, but the dead zone is better and ya don't go lurching back to the left after making a right.

Good luck with trying out more POTs, I'm completely abandoning that whole idea until I can get with a coder to do this up the right way with a PIC/DAC setup so it has control over the max range as well as dead zone, this POT mess just isn't cutting it and IMHO isn't ever going too. The PIC/DAC will pretty much give control over the thing like the older in game menus did, just a ton more work to get that setup properly, but it'll pay off in the long run.

[JABBERJAW]

with that 90 one, there was a slight dead zone, but tiny, I will see when I put it into the negcon

[JABBERJAW]

ONce again D post, but this is good. That 90 degree 10k seems like a success !! It turns up until around 45 degrees or so on both sides. With gradients as well. It will take a little practice, and more degrees like 145 MAY be better, but I doubt it. The only problem at this point, is it is turning the opposite way that I am telling it to do. Switching wires did not change this, so I am trying to figure a way to make the controller hook together backwards, so you are still holding it the same way. Upside down is not an option. I used a steering wheel guts to test this. but I am sure that the wired controller would have reacted the same way. The steering wheel had better ports for testing and hooking up. I think I am going to take a break from this until AFTER the wipeout tourney though. it has wrecked three days of practice. I would have been done the first round of practice by now. OH well.

OH, there is a slight dead zone in the middle, but it seems to be a good thing. I haven't been able to really race yet, since I havent hooked up the buttons. HOpefully someone can test this from here.

[RDC]

If left/right are backwards just swap the 2 outside wires on the POT, fixed. ;)

[JABBERJAW]

ok, I was switching the middle and the left. I thought black was ground. I'll try that later I think. Otherwise if it didn't work, i would use it upsides down, and put in new buttons. I had to put in buttons anyway

[lovedr]

hey, how are you folks getting on with this?

[JABBERJAW]

I am going to be able to do it. I got the twist right I believe, and I know how to hook up t he rest. It will look a little different, since that dpad hookup is a nightmare for me, I will use a different one. I need to wait until after the wipeout tourney so I can practice though, too many little things while I was putting it together was making it take way too long. I think I will take pictures as I go.

[RDC]

Why should it look any different when yer done?


I've tossed the POT idea and am working with a coder to get it done up with a PIC between the POT and PS3 controller, so the thing will have a few different sensitivity settings for the Twist.

[JABBERJAW]

because I am stupid, and do not know what the coder is, or how to use one, not to mention what is a PIC :) I need to put in different buttons for the analog ones the way I am making it. I am actually going to use another a/b button board for the 1,2 slot I think. But the trigger buttons will be removed to allow for more buttons, and a better setup for me. The R trigger is crap I just discovered last night while playing 2097. It lets up without me knowing it, sometimes even if I'm holding it hard. It is difficult to keep that pressure on that the entire time. Anyway, I am putting in a different dpad, since the hookups to it are difficult, and I dare not solder to it. It is not set up as good as others.

My negcon at the current tme is at a 45 degree twist, with a slight dead zone. I cannot wait to actually try it with the gas and brakes working.

OH, RDC. I am using a ps3's steering wheel's guts for the hookups. The buttons are digital. The new pot I am using out of a old wheel or something is a 10k pot with a 90 degree max turn. The actual swing goes just as far as the negcon one, so it works out just right.

[RDC]

A 'coder' is just a person that can write code, correctly. ;)

PIC is short for PICMicrochip, it's sorta like an enclosed PC, just has no operating instructions on it, so ya have to write up code for it to tell it what to do.

The I/II pots can be used instead of replacing them, provided you connect them up to the wheels gas/brake pedals. Just get the Wiper (center lead) wired up right and then the other 2 ya can mess up if ya want, it'll just act like the button/pedal is pushed all the time until ya swap them around.

[IH8YOU]

I haven't worked with PICs (build / program wise) for... ugh, 9 years now. (I'm getting OLD!!!)

But PICs I worked with were Programmable Integrated Circuits - from how I used them (I know they can do a LOT more than this) but as programmable logic / function / "Dumb Computers" - to carry out small automated tasks.

Like an infra-red seeker head for a tracking / guidance systems - very similar to how they guide the robotic arm on the space shuttle. (VERY similar)

I used to be pretty good with them... but 9 years since I even touched one - I'm afraid about all is lost. :(

Too bad, as I never lost interest in them, I just never could justify buying a programmer / coding station for them, because 500+ dollars on a "toy" with limited home applications - didn't fly by my wallet. (I was/is poor)

Back to the original topic - personal life is FINALLY getting back to the norm, and I've at least un-buried the Neggie - and will resume work on it tonight. Due to the time that has lapsed, I'm no longer shooting to have a complete, clean unit on round 1, I just want it functional, and I'll make things pretty should round 1 pan out.

[JABBERJAW]

I don't mind my controller having different buttons. The digital buttons will work better anyway. Also, the gas break r2 l2 of the wheel I have is a combination digital/ analog. digital for the buttons, and analog for the peddles I think. Too much work I think I need to do here. When replacing them will be faster, and the digital buttons will be more responsive.

If the twist works correctly, then the rest will be fine.

[RDC]

Suc-freaking-cess, for what I set out for anyway. ;)

With the extremely expert help of Manta (coding) and DojThis (some vital math) the Twist is now a done deal with 4 modes for a different max turning radius..

Default - Which is around 110 degrees

Mode 1 - 90 degrees

Mode 2 - 75 degrees

Mode 3 - 45 degrees

For this mess we used a PIC 16F690 and an LTC1660 DAC. The DAC is an Octal, which means it has 8 Digital Analog Converters, but only one of them is used for this and the PIC is also sort of overkill, they were just leftovers that we put to some use.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neG3con006.jpg

It has a single push button to cycle thru the modes and a couple of LEDs for feedback so ya know what mode it's in. All that's really left now is to stuff the controller board and PIC/DAC into a project box and make up a decent cable for it, figure 3ft. or so is more than enough, so it's semi-wireless. Stuffing the entire PS3 controller into the neGcon isn't going to happen, and if it did it would look like crap, there just isn't enough room for it to fit in there and to even get into that would be such a chore.

I'll try and get some vids up later for ya guys of the different modes and show how it all works, like to get it all in the project box first.

[lunar]

I can`t wait to see the final product in action :beer

[JABBERJAW]

I have mine just about ready to go. All buttons are in the negcon, and the base is mounted, so I just need to connect/soder wires to get it up and running. I got a little impatient, so it looks a little frankenstein on the button side, but it should work just fine. I figured out how to get the new dpad in, and have it hold correctly, but now I just need time to put these wires together, and I should be able to give it a nice test. The next one I make, I will probably use the red buttons and blue buttons, but I need to adjust the red buttons to press on a digital pad, which was going to take me too long. I am hoping to have some connections made tonight, and by next week sometime it will be done.

[JABBERJAW]

NEED HELP HERE I am almost done, but hit a snag with my added dpad, and face button pad

Both pads, have 5 wires, one wire for each button, and one for ground.

On the base pad they are being plugged into they have slots for all wires on one piece. which is not a problem, BUT the buttons are being recognized as always on. Do all the wires need to be plugged in for this not to occur? The other sets of buttons I put in worked fine, even on the boards that had l1 and r1 on it, and the one with l2,r2, that worked fine as well. I was able to test each button individually.

Anyone?

[RDC]

Without seeing what you've done it's hard to tell what's wrong, not to mention how ya have it all wired up, and as you've used that steering wheel without knowing how it's setup even if I did see it I couldn't swear as to what may need to be changed around to straighten it out.

If you'd have used a PS3 controller I could give ya a load of things to try out, but with that wheel as your controller board yer kinda on yer own as I don't even know what it is, let alone had it all apart and traced out to see how it works.

[JABBERJAW]

I am not an electronics genius here. there is no way that I could use a regular ps3 board without knowing exactly where to solder, ect. This board is simple. It turns out that for some buttons/dpad boards, it simply sets itself to on, and you cannot get around it. I tried out a variety of buttons and some worked fine, so it's just going to take me longer than I wanted, thats all. I am going to need to take out the dpads that are in the negcon at the current time unfortunately, but before I do, I'm going to set it so I can play a tt at least (without brs)

[Asayyeah]

Al, did i ever told you you are a pure tech-genius?
:o Can't wait for the final result ( will open cam this week to let me see your new Neggie Wonder :)

[RDC]

I am not an electronics genius here. there is no way that I could use a regular ps3 board without knowing exactly where to solder, ect. This board is simple. It turns out that for some buttons/dpad boards, it simply sets itself to on, and you cannot get around it. I tried out a variety of buttons and some worked fine, so it's just going to take me longer than I wanted, thats all. I am going to need to take out the dpads that are in the negcon at the current time unfortunately, but before I do, I'm going to set it so I can play a tt at least (without brs)

Who said ya were? or that I was? The only kind of button that 'sets itself to on' and stays that way is a latching type of switch, and they don't use those for buttons in controllers. Also ya couldn't use that wheel there unless ya knew exactly where to solder, etc., and since it's not working correctly it seems that board's not so simple after all. ;)

If ya want a decent enough thread to take some of the confusion out of the PS3 controllers have a look here..

http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=648322

[IH8YOU]

I actually have the weekend off from work - for the first time in...........



..............

Yeah, a while. I'll try to complete the Neggie so I can ship it back!

[JABBERJAW]

the board is simple actually, all slot ins and no sodering at all. some buttons were on all the time, some were off the dpad was always on. It is NOT set like that, however there is a compatablility issue for what ever reason. The buttons are working fine though in place of the dpad, except it is taking longer. I'll probably need to find better buttons for it at some point. I ripped that dpad out of a motorcycle controller for the ps2. the face button pad as well. I might just try and find another dpad that doesn't create this. The controller is twisting excellent however when I tested it out on tt. Can't wait to get it into working order.

[jan709]

A bit off topic here:

I have never touched a neg-con, whats so great about it? (am i asking a stupid question? please dont kill me ;) )

[Sausehuhn]

In short: Precise steering and pitching at the same time.

[JABBERJAW]

mine is done, at least all the wires are connected, and working correctly. I just need to put the negcon back together carefully now. I might wait until tomorrow

[Kyonshi]

What?

[MAMUTH]

dont forget to give us photos and maybe some gameplay video;), im really curious about this project of yours. i never had the pleassure to try negcon myself, but from what ive seen,that thing must be super cool for racing

[JABBERJAW]

COMPLETED. It works incredible, better than I expected when I tested it earlier. I really cannot believe that it works so well. I took it for a spin on chenchou reverse, and all barrel rolls work fantastic, and it makes the turns very smoothly. Hell, that last sharp turn was easy it seemed, even compared to dpad. It felt like it turned sharper for whatever reason, maybe the analog, who knows. One thing I can give is, it made the game feel slow, maybe this is just for me, I don't know, but I hate using a dpad, because it is so imprecise, always tapping maybe. but with this, wow. I'm celebrating with some breyers cookies and cream ice cream.

still to come though:

1) I need to tape these wires together very carefully, then set the base up so it will not be dusturbed by jordan hitting it in the head with a spoon (arnaud)

2) I need to clean this mess that has been in the living room for a week, ugg

3) need to get used to the button setup to use this thing correctly

4) next time I need to use very small gauge wire. At first when I finally had it together, the wires that went from one side of the negcon to the other interfered with the twist, not making it spring back to center. I juried it to work right, but next time I just need to use small wire

5) There are 21 wires coming out of this thing, HEAVY, but will be better when I tape it up. Once again, small wires would be nice

6) The digital microswitches I put under the red buttons work fantastically, very quick reaction time. The original blue buttons also work very well.

7) I need better buttons for the triggers next time, but all the important stuff with the quick tapping can be done on the dpad and the face buttons

8) The dpad I put in ended up coming from a handheld one dollar controller I found at big lots. It is very responsive, but would like a little better dpad next time. I would almost consider buttons if the were sensitive enough for quick tapping.

My first attempt here is ugly I must admit, but not as ugly as it was going to be with the other face buttons and dpad that did not work. I'll try and get a picture up as soon as I can

[Mu5]

Are you just doing small twists to perform a BR yeah?

I cant wait to see some pics/ videos of this Al :D

Respect bro :D :+

[JABBERJAW]

dpad for the barrel rolls. I actually got some barrel rolls by turning the twist, and touching dpad opposite twice, but it wasn't working all the time. They work very nicely. That was the part I was little worried about

[mic-dk]

I'll stand in the queue waiting for videos :)

Great work Al! Too bad I'm better with a welder than a soldering iron - I'm afraid the NegCon wouldn't survive that :D

2 thumbs up!

[JABBERJAW]

I ended up doing no soldering with what I used, so it worked out great. I could have but it was uneccessary

[GreenPhazon]

When can we see pics/gameplay vids?

[JABBERJAW]

I don't have the time yet to do that. Hopefully soon.



I just played extreme g3 and fzero gx with it, not bad at all. If it wasn't for the snaking in gx, this thing worked great, very smooth with the setting adjustments. It plays extremely well on chenchou reverse, and felt pretty good on sebenco foward. It is going to take getting used to, but I can tell by the feel of it, It will make an appearance at the next wipeout tourney. If I had left the psp 2 tv together, I could have used it for wipeout pure. I think that would be even better than hd.

sorry xavier, got to get to bed, will try kinetica another time. Does kinetica allow for dpad movement?

[RDC]

Here is where the one I've been working on is at, it's pretty much all cosmetic right now as all of the working bits have been sorted out already, just taking my sweet time on it as I had to rewire 98% of it and make up a 17 wire cable from the neGcon.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neG3con008.jpg

I still have the PS (Home) button and the player LEDs left to install, then wire up the PIC/DAC board and PS3 controller to each other then to the neGcon controller, some final testing to make sure it still works like it did before and that'll be about it. The control box has the PS, Select and Mode buttons installed on it, as well as the LEDs to display which max twisting radius (Default, 90, 75, 45) that it's in, and the miniUSB connector for syncing/charging to the PS3. More pics to come after I get things sorted and all in place.

[Asayyeah]

I am glad you did it Al, i don't forget what you said 2 years ago : "there's no reason it's not working"
That is an incredible step ahead :o


1) I need to tape these wires together very carefully, then set the base up so it will not be dusturbed by jordan hitting it in the head with a spoon (arnaud)
If in future SL wants to release a retro weapon pack featuring a deadly wooden spoon , i am sure Jordan will get that trophy very quickly and guess who will be his first casualty ? :cold


RDC your model looks also awesome!

Hope those incredible jobs you did guys will be very inspirating for 3rd parties manufacturers and they will release a controller like this !

[JABBERJAW]

RDC, can you post a pic of where you soldered to the main dpad board? or do you have a pic of that?

[RDC]

RDC, can you post a pic of where you soldered to the main dpad board? or do you have a pic of that?

I removed all of the components from the neGcon's board and soldered to the pads where the IC was..

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neGcon033.jpg

It doesn't look quite like this now internally, as all that wiring was removed and redone for the new cable, but it's still pretty much the same and the same spots used. Since it's a Common Ground layout the D-pad connections run right to the IC on the board, so if it's removed ya have access to the one side of them right there, then any Ground spot for the other. You could also trace back a bit and use a Via if ya were so inclined. The Start button has to be isolated, unless your controller also uses a Common Ground type of layout, the PS3 controllers do not as they have a weirdo 3 Common line type of setup.

[JABBERJAW]

What size wire are you using on the inside now, what gauge? My next one needs much thinner wire.

[RDC]

Some of it's still the same 30awg Kynar wire (also called Wrapping wire) that's in that pic there, and then some of it is the new cable wire, which is a 28awg stranded type. Ya wouldn't want to use the 30awg wire for the actual cable, even though it would be really great since it's small, but it's a solid wire and will only take so many bends before it breaks, which is why I redid the inside of the controller as I had it run from one side of the neGcon to the other instead of the original cable. So before long it would have given up the ghost from all the twisting, but that's resolved now and the original cable reinstalled for that part with the new changes. That's why using a stranded wire is necessary as it can take more of that kind of abuse before giving out on ya, though eventually it will too.

[JABBERJAW]

28awg is what I should use then? I'm not even going to tell you what I used, I'll give you a hint though. Smallest wire at radio shack :) Can't wait to make another one.

[RDC]

28awg is what I should use then? I'm not even going to tell you what I used, I'll give you a hint though. Smallest wire at radio shack :) Can't wait to make another one.

The smallest wire at Rat Shack is 30awg magnet wire, which is technically the same size as what I used for some of this, but it's actually thinner as the insulation on it is an enamel, so it's a lot thinner than the coating on 30awg Kynar wire.

You should use whatever awg ya need for whatever you're doing. The 28awg is a little big for soldering on those IC pads, but could be soldered to a Via with little issue, so it all depends on what/where/how you're doing it as to what awg will work better. They have the 30awg Kynar (Wrapping wire) at Rat Shack also.

[JABBERJAW]

I just pulled out 24 wires out of the cable from those gameshow controllers. They are theright length, and are easily thin enough. Saved some money there. I'm going to make a new one soon, as soon as I find out what I want to do for a dpad

[RDC]

A little update where I'm at with this thing..

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neG3con009.jpg

It's all wired back up and still works (bonus) so now all that's left is to mount the PS3 board in there and that's about it. The L1/R1 buttons aren't really used too much, Look Back is for people that like running into things and Voice Chat might get used, but I think I'll add them to the control box anyway.

[Aeroracer]

I got one of these joypads, never thought of using it to play, are they good for wipeout.

[Asayyeah]

For few of us , Negcon is our ultimate controller to play old wipeouts, you can steer and pitching nose separatly, it's so much more immersive than any other controller imo (especially if you race internal view héhé ;) )

Check 2097 & Negcon, get a caïpirinha and launch the track called Valparaiso, after winning the race you have permission to dance Samba do Brazil
:nod

[Sausehuhn]

Haha Asa :beer Warning: Alcohol and WipEout is no good combination! … well … at least if you're going for records. If you're not, well, then it's fun! ;)

On Topic: I never played with a NegCon (Shame on me!), but I see its advantages. But: I have to admit that the motion sensor works pretty well for pitching in WOHD. I did not get the hang out of it for steering (though there are people who are pretty good with it), but for pitching I thought it was very enjoayble. Is the NegCon still that superior to the motion-sensor-pitching?

If it is: RDC, I'll preorder one for the time I buy a PS3. That means I'll preorder one for the time the PS3 has the 360's price niveau. Or is at least available for around 200€ on ebay.

[Aeroracer]

For few of us , Negcon is our ultimate controller to play old wipeouts, you can steer and pitching nose separatly, it's so much more immersive than any other controller imo (especially if you race internal view héhé ;) )

Check 2097 & Negcon, get a caïpirinha and launch the track called Valparaiso, after winning the race you have permission to dance Samba do Brazil
:nod

anything with samba do brazil Sounds good to me.:hyper:hyper

[IH8YOU]

NegCon Is VASTLY SUPERIOR to current motion sensing technology. By orders of magnitude.

We're not all busting our nads for nothing, ya know. ;)

Also - the D-pad feels sooooooo nice, too.

[Darkdrium777]

sorry xavier, got to get to bed, will try kinetica another time. Does kinetica allow for dpad movement?Yes I think so via one of the alternate control layouts. I just figured this out myself that there was more than one control setup... And Kinetica is a launch title for the PS2, and the first game I got on the console :lol
Can someone yell laaaate?

[blackwiggle]

Just a quick question to those that have meddled with the innards of both the NegCon and the sixaxisis.

If it or would be possible to rewire a sixaxisis so that the L1R1 [air brakes] were able to work as anolouge like the L2R2 [air brakes]

I'm thinking NO ,but if a possible YES was the reply,well I'm out with the soldering iron.:)

[RDC]

If you're talking straight PS3 controller, the L1/R1 buttons are already Analog, they just don't have the 'travel' the L2/R2 buttons do. The D-pad, X, [ ], /\, O, L1/2 and R1/2 are all Analog. If you have a game that doesn't allow ya to setup those buttons how ya want then L1 can be swapped with L2, same for the R1 and R2 buttons, and depending on the version of PS3 controller ya have that could be anything from a right challenge to a real mess.

If you're talking about making the L/R buttons on the neGcon Analog then that's already 50% done, as the L Button in the neGcon is Analog, so when ya wire it up to the PS3 controller it stays Analog. Making the R button in the neGcon Analog would be the 'fun' there, and it wouldn't have the same range/feel as the L button, unless you really got in there and messed around with both L/R buttons and set them up the same way, difficult, but doable.

[blackwiggle]

I'll wait till one of you comes out with a step by step "HOW TO' and needed parts before I NegConstien my only NegCon controller.

I have quite a collection of "OLD" contollers.

I had one of these working OK after modification.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_Analog_Joystick

That was untill 45kg of tennis ball chasing Labrador came crashing into it while on a garage workbench.:brickwall

[JABBERJAW]

Hey, you got that working on the ps3? I have one of those for that purpose, but haven't tackled it yet. How hard was it? you could use the hat switch for pitch, and still have analog movement

[RDC]

This one is about as done as it's gonna be for now. The buttons on the thing are Select, Home, L1/R1 and the Mode select for the Twist radius.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neG3con010.jpg

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/neG3con029.jpg

Video of the LEDs for the Twist Mode select changing when the button is pressed..

http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f320/RDCXBG/neG3con/?action=view&current=neG3con017.flv

I would make up some vids of it in action, but holding that whole mess, trying to hit buttons and steering while looking at the camera to make sure the TV, neGcon and control box are all in screen and not have the CPU players mug me while I'm sitting there trying to get it all done just isn't gonna happen, I tried. The video of it working earlier is pretty much the same thing as now, just has 4 different max turn radius settings and is in a box instead of being a mess held together by the wiring.

Extra special thanks to Manta and DoJthis for all the work they did on the PIC/Math side of things, I just wave the soldering iron around.

If I ever mess with another one of these things I have a few more ideas to implement, with the main one being making the adapter so the neGcon isn't 'harmed' in any way and it can just be plugged up as-is (that's a HUGE undertaking there) customizable Twist settings and then BR+ (Barrel Rolls Plus) where ya only have to hit a direction once to do a BR, which is cheating in my book, like Rapid Fire, but figure it would be neat to try out since that type of adapter will have a lot more control over what's going on, but that's a whole other project to get into and has it's own set of challenges compared to this.

[Sausehuhn]

1. Good work there! Also love the LED indicators! :clap
2. Just another (design) thought: You could try a heat shrink sleeve for the cables :)

[RDC]

1. Thanks.
2. There is heat shrink on the cables. The reason it's not 100% heat shrink is because if it was then it couldn't bend easily at all. I may put some type of wire loom on there later on, but I honestly have no plans to keep the thing. It was mostly just a challenge and this is by no means what I'd like to have as the 'final' product, this one is just the proof of concept really.

[lovedr]

well done indeed to all the people involved on this project.

if anyone would be so inclined in building me one i'll pay for it -'specially if it's would be of a final build quality.

[RDC]

well done indeed to all the people involved on this project.

if anyone would be so inclined in building me one i'll pay for it -'specially if it's would be of a final build quality.

Thanks, though my definition of 'final' build would take months to even get working, let alone finished up, this one here works, which is as final as it's gonna get. ;)

Also forgot to mention sine it can't be seen in the pics, but the miniUSB connector for charging the PS3 controller's battery up is on the side opposite of the cable.

[FishDK]

Oh I was just looking for this as I remembered that I have a EMS ps1 adapter for my PC and figured that I'd hook it in to the PS3 and plug my negCon into it. Unfortunatly I could only make 3 buttons work on the PS3 and figured that someone else might have thought of the same thing. Seems a little more complicated than just remapping the keys. I was really hoping it would have worked :(

[JABBERJAW]

Maybe Ih8you or RDC can help me here

engadget.com/2006/10/10/how-to-analog-control-stick-for-your-sony-psp



this site shows the pin layout of the psp vs a regular analog stick, and how to connect an analog stick to the psp. Since the negcon has only three pins for the turn, where would these three wires be connected to from the negcon potentiometer?


On a side note, I have now finished two negcons. Second one is better because the dpad assembly is a little better, and the right side in intact completely with no different buttons. It is also better because the wires are smaller.

[Darkdrium777]

Pictures please, it's exciting :) The first one was pretty cool, so if the second one is better... !!! :D

[RDC]

Maybe Ih8you or RDC can help me here

engadget.com/2006/10/10/how-to-analog-control-stick-for-your-sony-psp

this site shows the pin layout of the psp vs a regular analog stick, and how to connect an analog stick to the psp. Since the negcon has only three pins for the turn, where would these three wires be connected to from the negcon potentiometer?


It's the same as a Stick, the neGcon just has the X-Axis (left/right) where the Stick has and X-Axis (left/right) and Y-Axis (up/down), so you'd just connect it to the spots the X-axis of the Stick are using, which going by that diagram is A/B/C, with B being the Wiper (center pin) then A and C being power/ground, and if ya get the power/ground backwards it'll just work backwards is all and swapping them will fix it.

[JABBERJAW]

thanks, I'll give it a try soon.

xavier, I'll post the pics after I finish my xbox version

[JABBERJAW]

xbox negcon now is a reality. I wish I had the thrustmaster wheel for it, but I ended up just using the yamaha motorcycle wheel that was made for it (kinda). The yamaha wheel comes with a controller converter for xbox/gamecube, and has sensitivity settings, although with this game, I would rather have it perform like it does on the other wheel, set at 45 degrees. Anyway, I think this will work well when I get used to it.

IH8you, I was wondering how the one you were making was working out?

[element42]

I've just succeeded in building a microcontroller-based circuit that allows me to use an unmodified negcon on the ps3. I'm pretty pleased as I've spent practically every spare moment for the last three weeks trying to figure this out!

At the moment it only works on full sensitivity. This should be trivial to code a solution for, but I'd like to use a potentiometer to calibrate sensitivity so as I have to learn ADC routines for the controller it might take a little while to get right! Also, only the twist is analog. I think I should be able to get the other buttons analog but it's not a priority as I've never used them that way. Likewise the lack of home button.

quick picture: (my camera is :turd) http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/album.php?albumid=176&pictureid=2081

more details to follow!

[SaturnReturn]

That sounds very promising. An analogue option would be good, but I'm not sure about analogue buttons for WipEout HD. With the sideshifts and barrel rolls, I think digital would work better. So perhaps full analogue is not a necessity for HD but may be for the other games.

[lovedr]

lovely!

[Asayyeah]

You guys are genius ! You should use Webex and cooperate among all of you and maybe this could be financed one day?
I had chance to get into my hands Al's HD Neg V1.0, i sent it back to him to get the new V2.0 :hyper

Special greetings to you Element42, Mister Mo(lybdenum). great to see back an old Neggie lover :beer

[xtriko]

I'll buy 2!!! :D

[element42]

More progress, have successfully added potentiometer for calibration, as well as some push switches to map the buttons not on the negcon (L2, L3, R2, R3 & select). I have attempted the home button and analog buttons but no success... actually, I could use a little help here.
I need to see some HID reports for other PS3 devices. An HID report is a little chunk of code that tells a host device exactly what a USB peripheral is and can do. I managed to get my adaptor working after essentially copying the report from a standard PSX -> USB adaptor. If I'm going to get the home and analog buttons working, I think I'm going to need to see the HID report of something else with a home button and analog buttons! The Sixaxis/dualshock3 has a report that is very complicated so ideally what I want is a report from a steering wheel with analog throttle & brake (like the Arno-con! which presumably maps the analog buttons), and a PS3 adaptor something like this:
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/album.php?albumid=179&pictureid=2084
That's a PS3 adaptor that will take a PSX controller and a PSX memory card. Unfortunately mine doesn't work! But importantly it has a home button.


So, how do you find out the HID report?
Install USBlyzer (trial version) from http://www.usblyzer.com/download.htm
plug in the gamepad to the computer.
Install & open the program
In the top-left panel (device tree) click on the port that is directly above the gamepad (should say something like Port x: USB human interface device)
In the bottom-left panel, scroll down to the bottom section (Interface x: HID report descriptor). This should begin with something like "Usage Page (generic desktop) 05 01'. Select to the bottom, copy and paste into notepad or something.
It would also be useful if you could go to Control Panel -> Game Controllers -> Properties and find out which button number lights up when your press the home button.
Shoot me a PM with the info! :g
Right, that's all for now. The home & analog buttons are really just a software issue so I can get on with some stripboard soldering to properly 'make' this thing...

[SaturnReturn]

I'm not sure I fully understood that but....

I have a PS2 controller and a PS3/PC adapter which maps the home button to the analog button for use on PS3. The only thing is that when plugged into a PC, I don't know what the analog button will actually do. But the PS2 buttons are all analogue I think, so I can record the HID report if you think it might be useful.

EDIT: OK, now I'm not so sure. My firewall/anti-virus says the uninstaller is a virus.:eek

[element42]

EDIT: OK, now I'm not so sure. My firewall/anti-virus says the uninstaller is a virus.:eekDo you mean the uninstaller for the device monitor software?
Hmmm. That could be a problem. I used it okay, but I've only got AVG installed on my Windows partition (I use linux mostly :rock). I expect there's other stuff out there that'll do the job, I'll investigate.

[SaturnReturn]

Yup, the uninstaller for the HDD USB Monitor. It says, "heur.suspicious@25132460". I use COMODO firewall and anti-virus. Maybe it's just being paranoid, but I'd obviously rather not install it if there's any risk that the uninstaller is going to be unavailable when I come to use it.

[element42]

I agree, better to be safe. I've edited my post. I have found three alternatives but it'll have to wait until tomorrow for me to check how to use them as my laptop with Windows on is at work...

[afatsuoM]

First of all, element42... YOU ROCK! :rock

Second, now I'm really happy I bought a NeGcon. :hyper

And last. I used to have a little program to use my sixaxis controller in Windows. I'll look into it, maybe it can make some HID reports.

[edit]
Maybe this (http://wiki.ps2dev.org/ps3:hardware:sixaxis) and this (http://python-ps3.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/python-ps3/bootable/sixaxis/connection.c?view=markup) helps?

[element42]

Thanks afatsuoM, but I've already seen those... the sixaxis HID is very complicated - I've tried using the appropriate parts but failed. I might still be able to use it if all else fails, though.

I've found another USB analyzer program that to the best of my knowledge is not malware. It's called USBlyzer. I've adjusted the details in my previous post. Please let me know if any security suites detect any issues :redface:

[SaturnReturn]

This one comes up clean for me. Will try it later tonight when I finish working.

[wich]

@element42 What kind of controller do you use? and what do you code it with? Assembly or higher level? What do you use to interface with USB, is USB integrated into the controller or do you just bit bang the USB protocol?

[SaturnReturn]

I did as per the instructions for my Dualshock2. File is attached with the HID report, but in the game controller menu nothing is shown when I hit the analog button (which on PS3 works as the home button with this adapter). All it does is decrease the two bars for the stick input for a split second as the analog light flickers off and on quickly. So I guess the home button thing only works on the PS3 and does nothing on a PC. Maybe the HID report is the same anyway? I have no clue, but it's there in case it helps at all.

[element42]

That looks like it might be very useful, :beer thanks a lot SaturnReturn! The report is very similar to what I'm using, but with an additional undefined axis (this might be the home button), four more buttons (perhaps d-pad double definition), and a further section on the end which I'm pretty sure governs the analog button responses...

@wich - I'm using an AVR ATMega8 - see http://www.obdev.at/products/vusb/index.html for details. I've no real idea how it does its magic. In particular, my project is adapted from the PS2USB project (http://vusb.wikidot.com/project:ps2usb) by Primož Kranjec which uses the serial interface on the AVR chip to communicate with the PS controller. I'm coding in c, which I've never used before and am having to learn as I go!
I'm putting together a web page with details which will hopefully be ready by the end of the week for anyone who wants to try making one...

[wich]

Cool, how do you program the AVR, via serial port or a special programmer? Oh, and what environment do you use to code in?

I guess I should give a go to making my own version.

[element42]

I'm using the AVRISP mkII which I believe is a USB serial port implementation. I run (k)ubuntu linux so it's avr-gcc & avrdude from the command line, although I've played with AVRstudio a little bit - it runs nicely under wine, don't know if it'll actually communicate with the AVRISP though.

Anyway, mk1 is finished! Quick photo here (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/album.php?albumid=176&pictureid=2085). The little red things on top are miniature push switches. I'm not really satisfied with it, actually. It would be nice if I had a psx controller & mini-A USB socket instead of the pigtails. Also, the potentiometer to adjust sensitivity is inside (screwed-in cover), so if I want to adjust it I have to take it apart. The justification for this is that I didn't want an external knob that might be knocked after finding my perfect calibration, so I'm not really sure what to do about that. And I haven't got the home button or analog buttons working yet. But... it works!

The details are available from:
http://ps3negcon.element42.org/ - page still in progress. It's really quite easy to put together, the most trouble I had was getting it all together in the case!

[SaturnReturn]

Looks neat. Glad to help in any way possible, as I know a lot of people would love this.:+

[JABBERJAW]

sounds great, glad more people are getting into this now. I think you should put a knob on the outside, mainly for sensitivity changes with different ships, or even different games. My negcon worked awesome on ridge racer 7, smoother than wipeout since there are more degrees of movement in that game. how are you handling the sensitivity?

1) do you have the pot from the negcon plugged into something that can be adjusted?

2) If so, I would really like to know how to do this, this would save me the time of breaking a yamaha motorcycle wheel every time I make a negcon :)

[element42]

The negcon is completely untouched! It plugs into the device just like it would into a PS1. You just need a playstation extension cable to attach to the circuit.
The sensitivity adjustment pot basically just multiplies the incoming value from the negcon by whatever factor before passing it to the PS3.

If you can read circuit diagrams there's one in the zip package on the website. Otherwise I will be putting up a building guide sooner or later which hopefully will be easy to follow! You won't need to break any more wheels 8)

It would be good to get a comparison between my version and the 'hardware' approach... I wonder if they actually 'feel' the same in the game? It's possible - though unlikely I think - that having to interface the negcon with the microcontroller produces some lag.

[Medusa]

Huge kudos to you both, element42 and jabberjaw. It blows my mind that you figured this stuff out! :dizzy

Next you need to build a little warehouse in China and start selling...to everybody here, lol.

[BulletWraith]

about time someone did this :hyper:clap
thanks element42 for the awesome work!, seen microcontrollers doing wonderful stuff over the years(think I saw someone have a ball wired up via microcontroller to a Dualshock2 to play Supermonkeyball ), I just didn't think their was anyone here that had the know how to pull this off

while a bit hokey looking if you can't find a PS extension cable(hard to get here) you could always use the controller port straight out of a PS1, ever so plentiful

-zer:donutshen

[JABBERJAW]

so your negcon potentiometer, passes to a sensitivity adjustment potentiometer,

if this is the case, then with mine, I could do the same thing, except from that adjustment pot, it would go straight to the final input on the wheel board, yes?

where did you get this particular device? picture? link?

Man, If this works, I will really be pysched, I will basically have a programmable wheel, with sensitivity adjustment. It would also save me 25$ or so cutting my parts price down even more.

you say there is lag? alot, small amount?

[element42]

The device is based around an AVR ATMega8 (http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_card_mcu.asp?PN=ATmega8A) microcontroller which you should be able to get from most electronics suppliers. The negcon information is passed to the microcontroller, as is the information from the calibration pot, and a suitable output value is calculated by the microcontroller before sending the info to USB.

Lag: I don't think there's any, but I have spent more time building this thing than testing it. It's plausible because where the PS1 would just read the negcon and use the data, the microcontroller has to read the negcon and then pass the data to the PS3.

[JABBERJAW]

Is it possible to have just the three pot wires go to this microcontroller, then be able to adjust sensitivity with a Knob or such. this would be the final touch on mine. It works great as is, but the adjustment, and less $ making it would be great.

[wich]

@ JABBERJAW From the schematic I can see that the pot is just a voltage divider, the output of which is used on one of the 10 bit ADCs in the microcontroller. So in the controller you simply have a digital value between 0 and 1023 that you can use.

@element42 Thanks for all the info and the project page. I'm definately ordering some parts. Hopefully I get to play with this this weekend, otherwise the next. ;)

Btw, what would you guys think of a "do barrelroll" button so that you don't have to do the annoying LRL or RLR? Or would you say that is cheating?

[element42]

Al, If I understand what you're thinking, you'd need to use the microcontroller in a completely different way to how I'm using it. It would probably be possible though.

Wich - definitely cheating :naughty
Besides, I hate br's enough as it is... :p


___________________________

I've done mk1.1 - with an external adjustment pot. Picture here (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/album.php?albumid=176&pictureid=2089). There's no knob because I don't have any knobs :p but the lower couple does mean accidental adjustements are less likely.

I've also adjusted the code to double the serial interface speed with the negcon. This does mean my dualshock doesn't work anymore. I should do some testing to see whether the increased SPI speed is actually beneficial, but in the end I expect I'll just chuck the code for interfacing the standard pad! I could optimise the code a bit more if I do that.

[lovedr]

uttermost respect to all involved :)

[element42]

Thanks's to Al's testing, the adaptor has an additional pot for adjusting the dead zone.

Also, it turns out that WO:HD has a 'built-in' dead zone. That is, Wipeout ignores any input below a certain value (specifically, given a full input range of -128 to 127, it ignores any values between -49 and 48 ). I've coded around that but it does mean that any games with a different built-in deadzone will function less optimally. I could add a third pot to adjust this, but that would be three pots and it's starting to look ugly :frown: or I could leave it coded for WO. Given that I've only ever used the negcon with WO I'm thinking the latter, but I suppose it makes sense to make it as adjustable as possible...

UPDATE: Added the third pot. Three adjustments can be made now: sensitivity, deadzone, and 'built-in' deadzone defeat.

Just the analog & home buttons to go...

[JABBERJAW]

AWESOME WORK! I think that is a good idea too. I am going to test your negcon right now with ridge racer 7 or gran turismo

OK, just tested it out. For my negcon, the dead zone was smaller for ridge racer, and gran turismo, than for HD. For element42's negcon, it did not work for GT (odd), but it worked really good for Ridge racer, and the dead zone was smaller.

[element42]

I've spent a lot of the bank holiday weekend trying to get the analog buttons to be analog and the home button working but with no success. So I'm going to stop development on this, for a while at least. I think the adaptor is working well as it is, certainly enough to satisfactorily use a negcon to play Wipeout HD with.

[JABBERJAW]

yeah, I would stop too, there is nothing worse than spending alot of time on something and not getting it. weird that the home button is so difficult. It works perfect as you have it anyway, and the analog buttons wouldn't really help wipeout anyway, BUT they would help the other racing games like gran turismo. Nice work

[JABBERJAW]

Update on the negcon. Element has sent me his new masterpiece. It has a steering sensitivity dead zone, and built in dead zone. If there is a built in dead zone in the game, it can start the steering where that ends if you like, then you can adjust the steering sens as needed. This thing was incredible with HD, making the turning perfect, exactly where you want it, without worrying that increasing the sensitivity will also increase dead zone. This is certainly the best negcon converter by far at this point. He also added switches for some personal preferences. OH, also, this will work with the pc and mac! They recognize the controller. I just need to dial it in for 2097 mac still since I did not understand how exactly it worked when I tested it the first time. Amazing work, and a huge round of applause for element42

[Ace3cube]

You guys are impressive !

[SnoWStyle]

Hey guys,

I m so much supporting this project...
....dreaming of the Negcon when I play Wipeout Hd...

If I own a Negcon,
Is there a ''simple'' way to make it work ?

Besides if you guys want to market some Negcon adaptator, I m sure some people are interested to invest few bucks in it.

Keep it up :)

[element42]

Is there a ''simple'' way to make it work ?not really...

[F.E.I.S.A.R]

If I remember correctly,JABBERJAW gave Assayeah a prototype PS3 NegCon.Don't know what happened to it though.

[element42]

Less simple way: http://ps3negcon.element42.org/
but not really that difficult!

[SnoWStyle]

Awesome stuff Element.

Stupid question : Do you think Sony may be interested to make a Negcon for the PS3 ?

[LooseNut]

Less simple way: http://element42.org/PS3negcon/
but not really that difficult!
Element42, I created account just to work on this project. I am going to build one or two of the adapters to try it with the UltraRacer Wheel. I am great at assembling and soldering but I don't know have to program the chip, are you planning to add more details about that on the site? Thanks for your work on this project.

[element42]

I will be adding programming details, hopefully sooner rather than later!

I've just had a quick look at the UltraRacer wheel on amazon.com, shouldn't you be able to use a normal PSX->USB converter with this?

[LooseNut]

I tried the USB converter with no luck. I read somewhere that the Ultraracer was NeGcon compatible, that is what let me to here.

[BulletWraith]

I recently saw a setup that had an xbox controller hooked up to a PC to play FPS shooters with a keyboard and mouse

would a similar set up work for a negcon
or PS3 to PC to PS controller converter to neGcon
and just have the program running on a PC/laptop instead of a board

(and yes the UltraRacer is only neGon compatible even though it shows the R2/L2 buttons)

zer:donutshen
(btw thanks for getting back to me ages ago element42)

[JABBERJAW]

I made one using the controller you want to use for the ps3,EXCEPT it is the nintendo version. I will put up a pic if i can, it is on my instant messenger actually. The controller is set into a box for stability ad extra buttons are added for functionality. It works very nicely actually.

The element 42 converter that he made me should work with that playstation version, I can test it out for you later, it is too early right now. Hopefully I can get online later, the computer has been on the fritz.


OK, tested it out, the playstation version works perfectly with the converter,
however

for wipeout hd, you are going to have issues without modification, barrel rolls will be too difficult for access (twisting left/right is way too slow), also, hitting pitch back and turbo is hard. I am sure it could be modified just like the n64 version that I made, adding a few buttons separate for pitch/ left right dpad, and it would be good to go. I am not 100 % positive this would work, but probably.

[LooseNut]

Thanks JabberJaw for testing the UltraRacer. I am planning to use the UltraRacer mostly for GT5.

Element42, I send you a PM.

[JABBERJAW]

I think, that the converter did not work for gran turismo 5, at least the demo version. I do not own the game, but will give it another shiot sometime soon, not tonight though, too tired. It worked fantastic for Ridge racer though, right on the money. The one I made also worked very well for that game.

[mikrucio]

Good luck doing Barrel rolls...:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall

[JABBERJAW]

Yeah, I made a ps3 version of this controller, added buttons, a platform to put it in, and it works perfect for barrel rolls. however, as is, not too good for that game, but very smooth turning for other games though

[CRP]

Hi I am building element42's adapter as well. I have not done a faithful reproduction, but rather have built the basic interface, and am now playing around trying to get the best setup.
My goal is using the Ultraracer controller with this adapter. This is basically a NegCon with additional L2, R1 and R2 buttons.

Currently open problems (maybe somebody can help):

1) replicate the PS button somehow; this appears to be possible, according to this (http://www.slashdev.ca/2010/05/25/ps3-gamepad-with-home-button/) post and comments

2) somehow try to map the analog buttons to the analog L2 and R2 inputs. Does anyone know how the reportDescriptor is supposed to be set up for this? As of now I have L1 and I buttons on the negcon mapped to Z and Rz, but the PS3 does not like this setup (works fine on my mac though)

3) determine setups for a few games, then save them to the microcontroller's
flash memory and allow the user to cycle between different setups.

Any input is welcome!

CRP

[element42]

1) replicate the PS button somehow; this appears to be possible, according to this (http://www.slashdev.ca/2010/05/25/ps3-gamepad-with-home-button/) post and commentsinteresting, very interesting. Will probably require some hacking of the v-usb code. EDIT: I see you've posted in the comments, I hope someone gets back to you...




2) somehow try to map the analog buttons to the analog L2 and R2 inputs. Does anyone know how the reportDescriptor is supposed to be set up for this? As of now I have L1 and I buttons on the negcon mapped to Z and Rz, but the PS3 does not like this setup (works fine on my mac though)
I tried many different reportDescriptors trying to get the L2 and R2 analog, without any success; IIRC correctly most of the time it just refused to function as a USB device properly, I wondered if there are some limits to the v-usb capability.

If you find solutions to either of these, please do let me know and I will include your code (with credit!).

[CRP]

I tried many different reportDescriptors trying to get the L2 and R2 analog, without any success; IIRC correctly most of the time it just refused to function as a USB device properly, I wondered if there are some limits to the v-usb capability.


I have added the following to the reportDescriptor:



0x05, 0x01, // USAGE_PAGE (Generic Desktop)
0x75,0x08, //Report_Size (8)
0x95,0x02, //Report_Count (2)
0x15,0x00, //Logical_Minimum (0)
0x26,0xFF,0x00, //Logical Maximum (255)
0x09,0x32, //Usage (Z)
0x09,0x33, //Usage (Rx)
0x81,0x02, //Input (Data, Var, Abs)


With this, a PC (mac in my case) correctly recognizes the two analog buttons as Z-Axis and X-Rotation. Unfortunately, a quick test with Outrun shows that those two axes are not recognized on the PS3. I will continue trying, though ;)

What have you done in the end with those analog buttons? Just left them digital?

EDIT: just found the following info:

Report data
idx Assign
0 LAnalogX
1 LAnalogY
2 RAnalogX
3 RAnalogY
4 equals 41?
5 equals 45?
6 Button flag - Triangle(0x01) Circle(0x02) Cross(0x04) Cube(0x08) L2(0x10) R2(0x20) L1(0x40) L1(0x80)
7 Button flag - Select(0x01) LAnalogClick(0x02) RAnalogClick(0x04) Start(0x08) Up(0x10) Right(0x30) Down(0x50) Left(0x70)
8
9
10
11
12
13 Up Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
14 Right Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
15 Down Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
16 Left Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
17 L2 Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
18 R2 Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
19 L1 Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
20 R1 Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
21 Triangle Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
22 Circle Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
23 Cross Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
24 Cube Analog (0x00 to 0xFF)
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40 Motion X(H)
41 Motion X(L)
42 Motion Y(H)
43 Motion Y(L)
44 Motion Z(H)
45 Motion Z(L)

so it appears that one needs to send a report of 45 bytes in order to communicate correctly with the PS3. If I understand correctly, USB 1.1 only supports 8 byte descriptors, although on the V-USB forum there is one guy who suggests to do the following to circumvent this limit:

while (!usbInterruptIsReady()) usbPoll(); // need to wait
usbSetInterrupt((void *)&reportBuffer + 0, curGamepad->report_size);
while (!usbInterruptIsReady()) usbPoll();//need to wait
usbSetInterrupt((void *)&reportBuffer + 8, curGamepad->report_size);

I haven't tried it, but may be worth a shot.

EDIT: here is the full HID descriptor: http://wiki.ps2dev.org/ps3:hardware:sixaxis_protocoldescriptor

So the open questions are:
1) what happens in those 13 bits right after the 19 buttons?
if these are just for padding, I might reduce 13 to 5 and so eliminate a "useless" byte. thus I would have 8 bytes for report id, 19 buttons + padding and 4 axes, which should be fine for v-usb; notice that the hid descriptor contradicts the table above, according to which report starts with axes and is then followed by buttons.

2) what are those 38 bytes after the XYZRz axes?
my guess is that this is where the analog buttons + motion end up, as per items 8-45 in the table I placed above

3) what are those 5 48byte blocks at the end?
no idea at all

[element42]

What have you done in the end with those analog buttons? Just left them digital? yeah, they're just digital.

The report desciptor data is the full sixaxis report, no? Again, I spent a fair amount of time playing with that with no luck. Some of that space will be battery/connection data, and I think some of it si for identifying data that gets sent to the controller, ie will be for LED/vibration control.



so it appears that one needs to send a report of 45 bytes in order to communicate correctly with the PS3. If I understand correctly, USB 1.1 only supports 8 byte descriptors, although on the V-USB forum there is one guy who suggests to do the following to circumvent this limit:

while (!usbInterruptIsReady()) usbPoll(); // need to wait
usbSetInterrupt((void *)&reportBuffer + 0, curGamepad->report_size);
while (!usbInterruptIsReady()) usbPoll();//need to wait
usbSetInterrupt((void *)&reportBuffer + 8, curGamepad->report_size);
good find, if that works you could just replicate the entire sixaxis HID, fill it with empty data and see if it gets recognised, which would be an advance on what I managed.

[CRP]

I have some partial progress, now all NegCon analog buttons work.

Here is the HID descriptor:



static uchar reportBuffer[10]; // buffer for HID output reports

PROGMEM char usbHidReportDescriptor[USB_CFG_HID_REPORT_DESCRIPTOR_LENGTH] = { // USB report descriptor

0x05, 0x01, // USAGE_PAGE (Generic Desktop)
0x09, 0x04, // USAGE (Joystick)
0xa1, 0x01, // COLLECTION (Application)
0xa1, 0x02, // Collection (Logical)
0x85, 0x01, //report id 1
0x75, 0x08, // REPORT_SIZE (8)
0x95, 0x01, // REPORT_COUNT (1)
0x15, 0x00, // LOGICAL_MINIMUM (0)
0x26, 0xff, 0x00, // LOGICAL_MAXIMUM (255)
0x81, 0x03, // Input (Constant, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Bitfield)
0x75, 0x01, // report size 1
0x95, 0x13, // report count 19
0x15, 0x00, //log min 0
0x25, 0x01, //log max 1
0x35, 0x00, //phy min 0
0x45, 0x01, //phy max 1
0x05, 0x09, //usage page button
0x19, 0x01, //usage min 1
0x29, 0x13, // usage max 19
0x81, 0x02, // Input (Data, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Bitfield)
0x75,0x01, // Report Size............. (1)
0x95,0x0d, // Report Count............ (13)
0x06,0x00, 0xff,// Usage Page (Vendor defined 0)
0x81,0x03, // Input................... (Constant, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Bitfield)
0x15,0x00, // Logical Minimum......... (0)
0x26,0xff,0x00, // Logical Maximum......... (255)
0x05,0x01, // Usage Page (Generic Desktop)
0x09,0x01, // Usage (Pointer)
0xa1,0x00, // Collection (Physical)
0x75,0x08, // Report Size............. (8)
0x95,0x04, // Report Count............ (4)
0x35,0x00, // Physical Minimum........ (0)
0x46, 0xff, 0x00, // Physical Maximum........ (255)
0x09,0x30, // Usage (X)
0x09,0x31,// Usage (Y)
0x09,0x32,// Usage (Z)
0x09,0x35,// Usage (Rz)
0x81,0x02,// Input................... (Data, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Bitfield)
0xc0, // End Collection
// 0x05,0x01,// Usage Page (Generic Desktop)
// 0x75,0x08, // Report Size............. (8)
// 0x95,0x27,// Report Count............ (39)
// 0x09,0x01, // Usage (Pointer)
// 0x81,0x02,// Input................... (Data, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Bitfield)
// 0x75,0x08,// Report Size............. (8)
// 0x95,0x30,// Report Count............ (48)
// 0x09,0x01,// Usage (Pointer)
// 0x91,0x02,// Output.................. (Data, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Nonvolatile, Bitfield)
// 0x75,0x08,// Report Size............. (8)
// 0x95,0x30,// Report Count............ (48)
// 0x09,0x01,// Usage (Pointer)
// 0xb1,0x02,// Feature................. (Data, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Nonvolatile, Bitfield)
0xc0,// End Collection
// 0xa1,0x02,// Collection (Logical)
// 0x85,0x02,// ReportID................ (2)
// 0x75,0x08,// Report Size............. (8)
// 0x95,0x30,// Report Count............ (48)
// 0x09,0x01,// Usage (Pointer)
// 0xb1,0x02,// Feature................. (Data, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Nonvolatile, Bitfield)
// 0xc0,// End Collection
// 0xa1,0x02,// Collection (Logical)
// 0x85,0xee,// ReportID................ (238)
// 0x75,0x08,// Report Size............. (8)
// 0x95,0x30,// Report Count............ (48)
// 0x09,0x01,// Usage (Pointer)
// 0xb1,0x02,// Feature................. (Data, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Nonvolatile, Bitfield)
// 0xc0,// End Collection
// 0xa1,0x02,// Collection (Logical)
// 0x85,0xef,// ReportID................ (239)
// 0x75,0x08,// Report Size............. (8)
// 0x95,0x30,// Report Count............ (48)
// 0x09,0x01,// Usage (Pointer)
// 0xb1,0x02,// Feature................. (Data, Variable, Absolute, No Wrap, Linear, Preferred State, No Null Position, Nonvolatile, Bitfield)
// 0xc0,// End Collection
0xc0,// End Collection
};


I have commented out the pieces which I currently do not use. This is because the device is recognized only if the size implied by the descriptor equals the size of the buffer. Now, this descriptor/buffer's size is 10 bytes, thus the polling cycle becomes:



for(;;){ // main event loop
while (!usbInterruptIsReady()){
wdt_reset();
usbPoll();
}
get_data();
make_sense();
usbSetInterrupt((void *)&reportBuffer + 0, 8);
while (!usbInterruptIsReady()){
wdt_reset();
usbPoll();
}
usbSetInterrupt((void *)&reportBuffer + 8, 2);

}


if the last piece of buffer to be sent is 8 bytes as well, then it is necessary to send a third interrupt with length zero, which signals "end of the buffer". If length is less than 8, this is implied.

Next steps:
- try to work with the whole descriptor, although I am afraid this might lead to speed issues
- correctly assign buttons
- address the damn PS button situation. apparently the following is required:



/*
* Series of bytes that appear in control packets right after the HID
* descriptor is sent to the host. They where discovered by tracing output
* from a Madcatz SF4 Joystick. Sending these bytes makes the PS button work.
*/
static uint8_t PROGMEM magic_init_bytes[] = {
0x21, 0x26, 0x01, 0x07, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00
};

Not sure how this is supposed to happen with v-usb, though

let me know if it works for you

Cheers
Chris

[CRP]

unfortunately still unable to address the trigger buttons :(

found these guys:
http://bencao74.blogspot.com/search/label/Dual%20Strike%20PCB

who claim to have full ps3 support on an atmega8. I have tried to adapt their code to ps3negcon's design, but without success so far.

[CRP]

Adapting the code from this site:
http://bencao74.blogspot.com/search/label/Dual%20Strike%20PCB

I was able to get PS button and all analog buttons to work flawlessly on the PS3NegCon hardware. I am not sure what they have done differently, but it appears it is not just an issue of HID descriptor, since the usbdrv files have also been modified. But, hey, it works!

[slimjim]

sounds good

[element42]

That's absolutely brilliant, well done!

[lovedr]

my apologies for bumping a rather old topic.

just had a idea; would it be feasible to create a kickstarter project to build a small run of PS3 Negcons of a high build quality. I'm sure there's a good number of people around here who would still like to own one (myself included).

any thoughts?

[JABBERJAW]

Element42 ended up with the best solution, with a amazing converter he sent me. It has dials for dead zone, steering sensitivity, AND built in dead zone adjustment ( this makes our turning perfect). It also has a dpad right/ a button swap ( awesome for brs), an analog p down/ dpad up down swap ( necessary for navigating menus, and one other switch that I forgot what it does. A great piece, but make him a good offer to make it worth his time. I got two!


On a side note, I purchased a third party Bluetooth controller, and I think i can make a Bluetooth Negcon out of it. I wish I could figure out that built in dead zone though, then I could make a really nice one that would even work on the pspgo

[lovedr]

Cheers for the update JJ. I've just pm'd E42. I hope you manage to sort out your new controller :) Best wishes.

[hyrulebr]

Hi

Sorry to bring from the dead this thread. :)

Are you still using this adapter? Is it compatible with last ps3 firmware?

[blackwiggle]

I'm pretty sure Jabber is still using it.

From what I remember of the project, it involved making a separate interface box that had small dip switches.

It all started back here.
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?6151-PS3-NeGcon-Can-it-be-done

[JABBERJAW]

Yes, but .I haven't played in a while. It didn't work on vita tv, as I cannot update the firmware or lose 2048 on tv (I think some USB controllers work on vita). I used a Bluetooth negcon for it, but the buttons are off, and there is a dead zone, once again firmware issue. I have some ideas though I'll get to eventually

[sluggy]

YES !!! Been playing Wipeout HD all day on and off with a Cronus max plus with x-aim plug in. I am using a combined script which has sorted out the dead zone and shortened the range of twist. Playing feels perfect just like on the ps1. I am suddenly winning with ease, I shall have to go up a level !

[JABBERJAW]

Wanted to buy a cronusmax plus today, but GameStop was out. I'll have to pick one up. You are using this on the PS3?

[sluggy]

Yes on the ps3. Has given the game a much better feel.

[JABBERJAW]

Do you have a ps tv to try it on?

[phaseIV]

Hey all,

I know I’m kinda late to join the party but I’ve come up with an excellent negcon converter for the ps3.

Required assets are an Arduino Uno board, a resistor, some wires and preferably a controller socket.
The steps I followed are all written down in this article, http://tecnomente.altervista.org/2014/03/29/use-ps2-controller-on-pc-and-ps3-with-arduino/
The method uses Unojoy to make the Arduino behave as a joystick and Ps2x_lib to read ps1/2 controller data.

It didn’t work properly at first, some modifications to Ps2x_lib were required to retreive clear negcon data.
After that I added code to minimize the deadzone, reduce the maximum twist and use key combo’s for ie. the Home button.
It’s all working great, been racing like it’s 1996 and I’m having a blast. So I like to share it here.

The modified Ps2x_lib and my arduino/negcon sourcecode is available on github:
https://github.com/phaseIV/arduino-negcon-ps3

Enjoy!

[lovedr]

Awesome news PhaseIV, sounds like it works really well. Would love one of those.

[blackwiggle]

I'm just wondering if it can work with the Omega Pack, and get it to work with Formula Fusion

[Shards]

Hi everyone, I've been following this thread with interest & signed up to ask: for those that have succeeded in getting the NeGCon to work on PS3- have you tested it with the original PSOne Wipeout trilogy on the PS3?

I have searched & all the references seem to be to HD. You would have to play 2097/XL & 3/SE from original PS Disc, but the original game is available from PSN.

If you have tested it, could you I trouble you to advise which game & the hack you've implemented, whether it did recognise/register the controller as a NeGCon, and allow you to calibrate via the Options as I recall those games did on PSOne?

The reason I ask is I've returned to Playstation & WipeOut after a 20 year retirement from Racing/Gaming, and am re-introducing myself via those games on PS3. I'm becoming proficient again with the old-school d-pad driving technique- though I confess upgrading from DS3 to DS4 helped alot ;)- but naturally it's making me miss the quality of control & fun using a NeGCon. (Also for Destruction Derby, another original Psygnosis Launch title :)