Are the single race start locations random?

[Greenix]

(I've done the best I can to search for any similar threads but can't find any so here goes. But should I have missed one then my apologies).

Over my whole wipeout HD experience I have found myself to almost always be in one of the back starting positions. Not only is this generally annoying because that means I have to try and over take everyone! But also because all the ships with high thrust are almost always at the front of the pack and my Harimau is the slowest to start up (which pillock named this ship the indonesian name for 'Tiger'? Should be Slug).

I was once told the start locations were random but I just dont think this is the case. I've tried hosting, connecting to a very close host, a far host, joining a game before anyonelse does.. Is it done by some sort of handicap? Does the race start you up in a reasonably close rank to that of your fastest multiplayer time compared to everyonelse's in the race? Or is it truely random and I'm just very unlucky? I spent about 18 races with Andybob and a few others tonight and out of those 18 I was in last starting position for 10 of them, 2nd from last for 4 of them and 3-4th for the rest.

Can anyone explain why this is? :?::? Does anyonelse get a feeling of deja vu when they see themselves start in the same location again and again? :frown:

[andybob35]

excellent thread, i still thinks its random placements although you were having a tough time at the back of the pack! Only time i saw you at the front was in my last tourney when i plasma'd ya and left you last thus next, u were first haha lol. :lol
The only time being at the back is when you get hoggers/rammers/lamers or woteva.. meaning you waste laps trying to overtake, by that time you'll never catch a fast player!

[Cerium]

I'm pretty sure it's random. I've gotten first position several times in a row against the likes of you and Wellington as well as against players who have no reason to be even thinking about phantom yet. Also, it changes from race to race regardless of where you are in the room list.


But also because all the ships with high thrust are almost always at the front of the pack and my Harimau is the slowest to start up (which pillock named this ship the indonesian name for 'Tiger'? Should be Slug).

Use one of the boats for a week (Piranha, Qirex, Triakis, etc) and then switch back to Harimau and enjoy your new-found appreciation of the thrust it has. :D
Even if I get a perfect start from the first position, I start the race in dead last. Hell, I don't think I've ever once gotten the first weapon pad in an online race. But, it also means I'm usually not taking the first missile/rocket hit as well. :D




The only time being at the back is when you get hoggers/rammers/lamers or woteva.. meaning you waste laps trying to overtake, by that time you'll never catch a fast player!
Which is one of the main reasons things like pilot assist shouldn't be allowed in rapier or phantom class. All it does is pampers players who (realistically) shouldn't be playing at those classes yet and screws up any player who happens to get stuck behind them. As you said, by the time you DO get around them, any other decent player already has a commanding lead. But this is a discussion for another thread.

[yeldar2097]

good question. i always thought it might be something to do with what ship you were in or what order you joined the host in. actually i had lots of theries. i don't know if it's to do with times though because i've started behind many a person who is significantly quicker than me. maybe its a combination of things. if its random you're pretty unlucky to always find yourself at the back, especially if there's a G45 at the front.

[Firedshot]

I find it annoying when you start at the back every time. even more so when your racing some one that is good and they start at the front and you've got to get around all the cannon fodder in between and then the next race it does the same thing again!

When Studio Liverpool done F1 game they aloud you to choose starting postions from either random or where your ranked for that track. That would better to have the choice!

Also why is when you pick Harimau and the women says the name it always makes me think of sweets?

[pildog]

I'm sure its random, I'm not sure how they could do it any other way.

I guess all the players could race a qualifying lap (all at the same time with the other contestants ships showing up as ghosts) to decide the grid position, but I think this would be unnecessarily laborious.

[lunar]

Being in a Goteki at the front of the grid sucks because I feel everyone is staring at me, knowing I`ve got all the good cards and they`re expecting to see a performance!! It puts me under pressure. ;) I prefer to be 2nd/3rd on the grid then let them feel my Goteki Powah!!TM

For the first corner or two anyway, then it`s only gentlemanly to fall off the track and give them a chance. :blarg

I`m not sure of the single race grid assignments, but in a session I seem to be always near the front or always near the back for the whole time I`m in the room. I get the same feeling as you Greenix, sometimes, but I do think it`s just luck and I know in my case I notice all my bad luck, but see my good luck as just a natural state of affairs and don`t notice it much when I get it, apart from that slot 1 on the grid, which is too much good luck sometimes!

[Darkdrium777]

It's entirely random. Although you may very well be unlucky.

In tournaments though, the first one to come in starts last, and the last one to come in starts first (And the people who left before him).

[stinkleroy]

I do think this is entirely random to be honest. I find myself starting at the back quite regularly, but combat that usually by taking the tightest line off the starting grid (only really works for me on Vineta K, AP and Moa Therma, maybe Chengou) Most people will head straight for the first weapons pad whereas I bypass it and take the tightest line, usually ending up in first. You risk getting shot, but this works 7/10 times for me.

[MarkXIII]

Single race grid positions seem random to me too, but I mostly race tournaments now - That way I only have to wait for the lobby to fill up once every few races.

I'm with Stinkleroy on the tight lines at the start, I've only really mastered that on Sebenco though, 9 times out of 10 I can start last and pick up the first weapon (why is it always a shield when I go over it, and mines or a bomb when I'm second?!).

On Chenghou I go for the first and second speed pads when most people go for the weapons, it usually puts me in first and able to navigate the hard left without having fight the rest of the pack. If I'm in the middle of the bunch going around that corner I usually get squeezed into last place (I suspect a lot of people are using Pilot Assist :naughty).

[IH8YOU]

I enjoy starting at the back - its the challenge and the fight that make the race worth while.

I must be the only one who's disappointed when starting up front. :lol

[MarkXIII]

I don't mind starting at the back in online races - I know I've got a fighting chance - It's starting last in every race of an Elite Campaign tournament that gets my blood boiling. :turd

[Greenix]

Thanks for the responses guys :)

Seems the general oppinion is that it's random allocated.
Ironically, after a few more races yesterday, I found that as soon as I changed my ship to Mirage, I was at the very front of the race track 4 times in row!
Either I'm just surrounded with coincidences or maybe the ship you choose has an effect on the probability of where you start.

@Cerium - I don't know if I could bear going to one of the tanks after being spolit by Harimau's handling..
@Yeldar - especially when it's Wellington's G45!

As a test, over the next 12 days or so I shall use a different team each night and record the averge start location and at the end see if I can find a correlation between your ship choice and the starting grid location....

[yeldar2097]

i think you might be onto something here greenix. this weekend did a quick stint in the old harimau and i started in 7th-8th every time.
when i switched to auricom i was at the front 2 races in a row and several more times after that !

[Greenix]

Thanks yeldar, its not just me then - phew..
So far:

Harimau is ALWAYS at the back
Mirage is quite often in the top 4
Triakis seems to appear in the 4-6 range
Feisar has a wider scope range of 3-7
Goteki appears in the 1-5
AG Sys is in 3-5 range
EGX varies from 1-3 and 7-8

Havent tested the others yet. But would these results appear to be what everyonelse finds who uses those ships?

[Constrictor]

IMO it's not so random but you already figured that out.

Slightly off-topic: Esp. for myself competing the fastest racers on planet it's 100% OK that you are placed last in the grid when the lame ones (as it turns out I am :blarg) are in the same race. At least we could see you for one short moment when you overtake us. I'd vote for an additional start-penalty of ~4s per Phantom race ... though, most of the time it's a pleasure racing the experienced WOHD pilots.

[IH8YOU]

Not as a bragging system - but perhaps a pilot rating depending on where they place on average. (a pilot that is consistently in the top 50 times will have a specific logo next to their name, another for a top 250, and perhaps another for a newbie with less than X races or flying time)

I enjoy racing the slower classes a LOT against good pilots - but I don't like destroying people who are new at it. This "rating" system could prevent this from happening, and make it more enjoyable on both ends.

I wouldn't opt for a #1 or top 10 designator, because that's where it would become showing off or bragging, and could discourage others from competing.

Maybe designate by game completion + game time? Similar to what Fusion did.

By the way, 4 seconds at Phantom is an E T E R N I T Y! How about a 1.4 or 2 second delay? Sit at the start line for 4 seconds and feel the sweat start to bead up! :lol

[SaturnReturn]

I had assumed they were random. But looking back through my vids from yesterday in the Feisar I wouldn't be surprised if the ship choice has an effect.

Feisar starting positions: 4, 6, 4, 4, 3(only 6 racers), 4, 4, 4, 4, 7, 1

Median average: 4, Mode average: 4, Mean average: 4 (1 s.f.)

My conclusion:
It's random! :p

[Wellington86]

In my experience online I have never noticed certain types of ship usually starting ahead of other types (and I've played a fair bit ;)).

What I think is happening is that the game is supposed to allocate positions randomly but the process it uses is not very effective. It seems to get stuck sometimes and keep repeating itself. During avalon on Saturday we started four straight races with everyone in exactly the same position (I was stuck in 7th each time in the Goteki). Similar starting lineups often happen. Sometimes I notice that the lineup is based upon the lineup of the previous race, but it's in exactly the opposite order. On an occasion yesterday, I kept getting good starting positions in the Goteki, and as soon as I changed to the Icaras I was getting put right at the back. But I have used both these ships a lot and I know that the Goteki certainly doesn't spend it's time starting at the front, and neither the Icaras at the back.

I think when the game gets stuck and starts repeating itself, you can get out of the loop by changing ship. It doesn't matter which ship you are changing from or changing to. Changing tracks seems to break the loop as well, but less effectively.

The problem reminds me a little of GTA when it generates a certain type of vehicle and even if it's a very rare vehicle there are suddenly loads more of that type around you.

[Soccermom]

Something is definitely wrong.
I played a 12 race tournament today and the this is the starting positions results, I got:
1, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8 ...




;)

[Connavar]

Lol, congrats!

[Soccermom]

Well, to be serious, I did 40 observations with two different crafts, which should be enough for a 8 way distribution and the positions were random within the expected standard deviation.
The RNG seems to be ... erhh... well random ;)

[Cerium]

<3 stats.

I hate to be another to throw a wrench in everyone's experiments, but I do believe it is just random. If it weren't, it would throw off the very delicate balance this game tries to have between the ships.

I think some of you are just unlucky. :(

[fantaboy00]

i have concluded its random

i hate starting at the back, it becomes a big struggle against the likes of Cerium

[Constrictor]

By the way, 4 seconds at Phantom is an E T E R N I T Y! How about a 1.4 or 2 second delay? Sit at the start line for 4 seconds and feel the sweat start to bead up! :lol

Well, examining the leaderboard after Phantom Pro races it occurs to me that 2s won't be that much help for me. Anyway, more appropriate for me, as I recently discovered during some WOHD video study, will be to switch off BR during Phantom races - or to learn and practice BRn. Just in case anyone feels offended by this - this is just out of frustration regarding the huge gap I have to the top 50/100. I'll keep practicing and maybe, some day I'll be competitive.

[Greenix]

Thats certainly something I havent thought of before Wellington...

Seems like this comes down to either bad luck, a crap placement system that gets stuck, or some factor which does play a part in determining the start position. Your theory would explain the results of my previous mini-investigation Welly. If your theory is right then I think I have been swayed to the prospect that I just have very bad starting luck which then sticks with me throughout... But with that said, YELDAR's finding of switching to Harimau and suddenly finding himself at the back for several occasions does nibble away at me...

This may have to be one of those unanswered questions... That will eat away at me every time I'm placed at the back...

Thankyou all for your input. :beer

[SaturnReturn]

bla bla bla...But with that said, SaturnReturn's finding of switching to Harimau and suddenly finding himself at the back for several occasions does nibble away at me...

Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?

You mean Yeldar? I did do a brief stint in the Harimau and remember telling you I quite liked it. But I don't remember the other stuff.

[Greenix]

Ooopsy, my apologies Saturn. Jumbled you two up :paperbag you will forgive me won't you?! (the pressure of yesterday's network errors must have gotten to me more then your plasma on metropia)
I'll correct it in a jiffy, there we go, all done :D

[yeldar2097]

...i'll take the mixup as a compliment.
i have a sneaking suspicion that wellington may be right on this one.
i'll check again sunday, hopefully i'll be able to get a harimau starting from first.

[SaturnReturn]

Greenix - seeing as you let me eliminate you tonight, I will let you off just this once. That's how generous I am :p

I'm just glad that I haven't been having conversations that I don't remember. That would be worrying.

[Greenix]

I bow down to ye oh generous one :p
But that was some serious stickage going on with our ships.

On a more topic related note, all my ship locations appeared to be random in yesterday's session :D First time I can remember not being at the back every race.

[mdhay]

Also why is when you pick Harimau and the women says the name it always makes me think of sweets?

Kids and grown - ups love it so, the happy world of Harimau.:)

[anderkovver]

it has nothing to do wich craft you take but i dont anderstand why pilots choose harimau because when you compare it with assagai statistics you will never choose for harimau exept if you like sweets

[Greenix]

I think almost everyone has noticed that now. I use and push Harimau to its limits and think that theres a lot more to ships then just the four main menu stat bars. This, however, is going off topic so if you haven't already, have a look at Haydn's (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5545) thread.

And ever since I made this thread - which was around the time the mystical update came out, I've found myself starting in more random positions which is promising :)

[yeldar2097]

had a quick checkski on sunday, all was in perfectly random order :)
actually i don't think i ever started at the back except for tourneys but i'm not complaining
PS. gotta love the harimau; looks fab, flies better, gets knocked off the track like nobody's business. love it

[judus]

I've been with assegai for a long time (wonder when the spear will land), but I have found myself starting all over the place, so I would conclude its random.
Interesting harimou stats, when I tried it, it felt pretty good to fly, a little touch of assegai and some seasoning of feisar. Not a bad taste at all :P

[guggle]

Agreed - must be random. Tournaments are different though... I reckon your position on the grid has to do with the position you finished the previous race on. First race is random, no doubt about that, but the second race starting position is the inverse of the first race finishing position. e.g finish 8th out of 8 racers, and you will start in 1st place in the second race, finish 3rd out of 8 racers and you will start 6th (3rd last) in the next race....

[stinkleroy]

it has nothing to do wich craft you take but i dont anderstand why pilots choose harimau because when you compare it with assagai statistics you will never choose for harimau exept if you like sweets


I gotta disagree with you there buddy. I completed the campaign in the Harimau because I liked the feel of it, especially for phantom. Assegai just felt clunky to me, and I couldnt get a handle on it. Whereas I can only equate the feeling of the Harimau as driving a mechanical bee, light and fast with precision point turning. Just a shame theres no sting in the tail :D