Is wipEout HD LAN-capable?

[eLhabib]

I've looked a bit into how several PS3s could be linked together in a private LAN, and from what I read on teh interwebs, it seems to be possible with simple patch cables and a switch. (not that I've actually tried myself yet...)

However, I don't know if there's a way to play wipEout HD over LAN, since I don't see any LAN option in the game's menu itself. So my question to everyone (yes, that also includes you, SL people!) is: does anyone know how to create a multiplayer session in HD via LAN? Is it even possible? Has anyone even tried creating a PS3 LAN for any game at all?

Any help would be much appreciated, we only have until May 2009, Frankfurt to find a solution! ;)

[Darkdrium777]

I didn't try this out because I don't have two PS3s (For obvious reasons :lol), but what happens if one PS3 hosts an online game with the correct number of slots, and everyone else on the LAN joins that game? It's not a LAN game really, but it should work.

[eLhabib]

The problem I see is that 'online' tries to connect to the internet servers as soon as you select it, doesn't it? I don't think the 'online' portion is even selectable when offline... does anyone know?

[mdhay]

No, Martin mate, it says that it can't connect to the network.

[eLhabib]

That's what I thought - so is there any way to create a LAN game?

[mdhay]

Usually, if a game can do LAN you'd be able to select it - Warhawk and Haze among others. SL could add it, but it might take some work.:+

[eLhabib]

So other games actually have a LAN option in the menu?

Okay, SL, you know what you gotta do - make it happen! :D May 2009 is the deadline!*

*please? ;)

[mdhay]

Yes, I'll take a pic if I can.

[rdmx]

I'm sure a LAN would have to be entirely possible though - how on earth else would they have playtested it?

[eLhabib]

With an internal test server?

[Sideshow]

To make it lan capable wouldn't take much work: all the online server does is provide a matchmaking service. But: not much is still non-zero, and generally, how many people are gonna have a PS3 lan? I mean, I sure as hell would, but I think it's a pretty slim niche. If SL have to choose between patches to fix bugs, making new content which they can charge for, or writing a local matchmaker that a handful of people will use, which do you think they will pick?

[eLhabib]

We don't need a local matchmaker. We just need an option that allows connecting to a private network instead of the official internet servers. All the rest can remain the same, no re-programming needed. I know that I know nothing about programming, but that does sound like a half-hour task for a programmer to me...

[Darkdrium777]

You can always arrange to have an internet connection at the place where you will be, so it will work.

Otherwise, WipEout HD is not LAN capable.

[eLhabib]

Internet connection to play with 8 people at the same location online would be a BAAAAAD idea! Think about it: 8 people using the SAME hotspot to connect online! Even if the hotspot has a connection speed of 20Mb down and 5Mb up (which would be top notch), splitting that up to 8 people would cut it down to 2500kb down and 600kb up for each PS3 - not quite enough for an unproblematic, lag-free experience... (the ping would be ace though ;))

[Lance]

Nothing is ever a half-hour task for a programmer.


Thorough testing for every incompatibility induced problem has to be done during the writing process.

[eLhabib]

See, told you I know nothing of it! ;)
Anyway, I think it might be possible to implement with a rather limited timeframe.

[Darkdrium777]

splitting that up to 8 people would cut it down to 2500kb down and 600kb up for each PS3
http://www.speedtest.net/result/367820658.png (http://www.speedtest.net)

What I have. It works well in most cases. And it's less than your calculations.

However you also don't have much choice, it's that or there's no LAN. :?

[Task]

Internet connection to play with 8 people at the same location online would be a BAAAAAD idea! Think about it: 8 people using the SAME hotspot to connect online! Even if the hotspot has a connection speed of 20Mb down and 5Mb up (which would be top notch), splitting that up to 8 people would cut it down to 2500kb down and 600kb up for each PS3 - not quite enough for an unproblematic, lag-free experience... (the ping would be ace though ;))I dunno, I think it might be worth trying. That low ping is really the key point.
For online gaming, Ping Is King. 8 )
If I remember my TCP/IP correctly, all the packets would go out to the ISP (hopefully a very short journey!) and then go right back to you. The "up" would be the first limiting factor, so it really depends on the packet size that HD uses.

Try it out! See how good or bad it is in practice.
If the Sony servers are involved, then it just might be as bad as you fear. But if the packets don't have to route through the Sony server, it might work out really nicely!
I believe it depends a bit on how the ISP handles their b/w throttling, since all you're doing is internal communication you might have a lot more pipe than you would talking to any internet server.

[rushin]

2500/600 is actually more than 90% of connections in the uk. fairly standard is 2000/500, which sould be ample :)

[mdhay]

Or, you could go to Japan and get a 4GB connection.;)

[zeeZ]

Or we could get someone to analyse traffic between the game and matchmaking server and figure out their way of communication so we can write our own server and redirect all traffic that's supposed to get to the ones online to our own and then... I think I should relocate to the basement.

[ProblemSolver]

Having a LAN option would serve us in the future as well when the WipEout HD
servers are going for a complete shutdown.

[zeeZ]

I just did a bit of research on NAT, punch-through and how that kind of matchmaking server works, then pinged my public IP and guess what...

I assume internet connection speed is entirely irrelevant, because packets won't even go the ISP once the matchmaking process is done.

One of those articles on NAT I've read (http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/building-nat-friendly-applications/), by Intel.

Our setup should look like the one given in figure 1., and I assume matchmaking works as described in "A Way Around the Problem". Except for the fact that we replace figure 4 in this section with figure 1, and.. gnah.

Since I don't feel like explaining this, I'll just say it might possibly work as long as we have at least some internet connection. Unless we have someone who knows more about these things and tells me how it really works...

[eLhabib]

That's your cue, Darkdrium! ;)

[Darkdrium777]

I think that this is what I was talking about earlier. You are forced to have an internet connection to talk to the master server because WOHD doesn't do LAN. It would be something like this:

http://a.imagehost.org/0943/Drawing.png

[eLhabib]

So basically, the speed of the internet connection would be absolutely irrelevant during the actual race, because information is only being transferred within the LAN?

[Darkdrium777]

Hmm I wouldn't know about that... I'm not an expert...

Ok maybe a little... :paperbag

[Mad-Ice]

Hi guys, the drawing of Darkdrium is exactly the way we did online (LAN) play at my house last Dutch Wipeout Convention. We hooked up three PS3s through my router and we could play together with 5 more persons from around the world without lag (at least for us and I did not hear anything from the persons that played us from Wipeoutzone). I really just have a basic internetpack, nothing fancy or fast.

So if this works for three PS3s through one internet connection, it will work for more or not?

[eLhabib]

Sounds good, yes! Now here are 2 things we need to know for the Euro Convention: 1) does AmigoJack have a router? and 2) how many people can bring their PS3?

[zeeZ]

Yup, internet is still required to initiate the whole thing

While we're at drawing fancy images, here's mine
http://wipeoutzone.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=507&stc=1&d=1232371137
After the master server told everyone where the host/everyone else is (this image assumes the host receives all IP/Ports and does the talking), there's lots of data flowing around.

Here, the host has 3 WAN (Internet) IP+Port combinations for every client, and each client knows the WAN IP+Port of the host. Now if the green Client wants to talk to the host, it will send a packet to the WAN IP+Port it knows. Since it does not exist inside this network, it will be sent to the router's LAN IP first. It will then take the packet, put the WAN IP it was meant for back in, notice "uh, that's me!", look up the port on its NAT table and forward the packet through the LAN to the host. Communication from anyone in this LAN to everyone else in this LAN will go the same way: Source, Router LAN, Router WAN, Oi!, NAT resolution, Router LAN, Destination. Those little "bridges" actually belong somewhat inside the router.

Note that this is after the master server online has done its job and the host took over. This also assumes all communication goes to the host and there's no inter-client talk. If there is, imagine arrows going from everyone to everyone else, with all arrows from a device behind the router to any other device behind the router looking like green, orangyellow, and two additional arrows like purple. Local people wouldn't notice much of a difference between themselves, but if there's even more people connecting online, the amount of internet traffic would literally explode and those would lag. I do not believe it works this way, though.

That's the way I see it, might still be horribly horribly wrong.
Also, I would bring my PS3. I don't have my schedule for the dates we're aiming at though, so...

[eLhabib]

Exactly! That's what I was asking, thank you. So, if it really works like you suggested, having 8 people connected to 1 router should be entirely possible, without lag. Now, if someone from SL could confirm that it actually works this way... ?

[AmigoJack]

Actually I would wonder if HD would run without lag. Most ppl don't know how to program effeciently - and I rather pessimistically assume Sony sends data from every PS3 up to one of their load-balanced servers. If the major packets (position of the crafts etc) only fly from station to station directly rather than processed by a server it would be a dream. Eventually Sony really did this to prevent overprocessing too much load. We can only hope to. Mad's experiences may also result from game-engine optimizations like interp (presuming the next position of the crafts instead of sending/receiving too many info, which of course might lead to minor problems).

Oh - and the programming :D Within networking, you always have clients and servers. Clients are like browsers, PS3s or cellphones. Servers are like site-hosters, Sony or GSM-receptors. While Sony executes serving programmes on their side our PS3 with its HD-game does have only client-code built-in. That's how I see it - and why it's not that "easy+fastdone" to provide a LAN-possibility.

Anyhow - I got internet access, I got a router and as we want to get the best out of it we won't use WLAN of course but cables instead :P

[xEik]

Most ppl don't know how to program effeciently
I fail to see why the WOHD programmers should be put in the same bag as any run of the mill VB code grinders.
Now, I completely ignore everything about the network code for WOHD and maybe the people behind that part of the game are not the same as the graphic programmers but I believe that a group of people capable of delivering 60 fps in HD do not qualify for the "Don't know how to program effeciently [sic]" title.

[TorquedSoul]

I am a little disappointed at the lack of a LAN option. 100MB goes a long way in keeping the craft positions accurate.

[AmigoJack]

I fail to see why the WOHD programmers should be put in the same bag as any run of the mill VB code grinders :lol Nice comparison.

Actually I put the whole Sony corp into the bag! 60 fps mostly come from chips directly and frameworks used by every developer. It's also a question on if you're programming for money and deadlines or if you're programming for free without limitations. Like everyone does its daily work the HD-team also did a good work. It's a generic question - not specifically to the HD-team only.

One example: FUSION looks fantastic, smooth and elegant. But if there are enough ships and ammos on the screen the game actually stutters! While the graphic routines may do their work good, the "weapon" code does not have a fallback. This time it's the team's work not gone far enough - for whatever reason (and there might be enough reasons if there is at least one boss for the team).

And yes I know: perfection is attractive, while the way to it is full of failure :P

[alterego]

Hi All!

I own two standard ps3.

I made a test with two different user on my wifi conn.

I made a connection on the scee servers, creted the lobby, from the other ps3 i join the game and it run very smoothly.

It's not real lan, but it...... seems! ;)
(and works fine!)

read You soon
CdRom

[eLhabib]

That's interesting - thanks for testing. However, 2 systems on one end is one thing, 8 systems on one end another...

[Sideshow]

Nice alterego. Could you try that again, and during the race disable your internet connection (but keep your lan active), and see what happens?

[eLhabib]

won't work. have you never been booted out of a race because you lost connection to the server? the game has to be connected to the server - however, that does not necessarily mean it has to send and receive race information all the time...

[Sideshow]

Well, no, actually; there was a time when the matchmaking servers went down and me and my friend continued to play with each other fine in the room we had already set up. It was only when we left it we couldnt get back in.

[Lance]

Two PS3s!?!?!?!?

[doesn't even have oNe. :paperbag ]

[Mad-Ice]

I shared my experiences before in this thread, with 3 PS3s in 1 room. It worked fine, but today I wondered how the controllers were assigned to each PS3?

How will all 8 controllers know which ship to control on the 8 different PS3s? Does anybody know?

[eLhabib]

That's not a problem. The controllers are bluetooth devices, which have to be identified by the system (by plugging them in with usb). They won't accidentally affect another system.

[AnErare]

I don't factually know but I can make a pretty good assumption.

They connect via bluetooth, so need a hardware network address. Those addresses are unique and need to be paired with a ps3 in order to work together. Luckily this process is very easy. It also leaves open the opportunity to theoretically have a lot of ps3's and controllers in one room, like hundreds. The amount is limited by bluetooth bandwith and controller consumption of it, which I don't know either way without looking it up and testing...I presume they use bluetooth 2 which has fair bandwith and the controllers using very little of it, so my guess is we could stack like 50 ps3's and that amount quadruppeled of controllers in one room and use them uninterrupted by eachother.

And after all that babble I hope I'm right ;)

[Mad-Ice]

Cool, thanks guys for the answer! Now we only need it to be the first of May.