W'O"MG! It's not really 1920*1080 HD

[supersocks]

http://insidethedigitalfoundry.blogspot.com/2008/09/wipeout-hds-1080p-sleight-of-hand.html

But as he said in the end: Like it matters.

(And no, I'm not least bit bitter to you guys having PS3, honestly ;) )

[Axel]

The dynamic framebuffer is amazing stuff SL. Well done, this would make a lot of sense to do as it would be very difficult to maintain 60FPS with everything happening at once :)

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, I read that yesterday. It's really interesting and certainly a neat trick. With the exception of the screen tearing, the game runs beautifully on my 1080p television.

[biglll]

it does actually run at 1080P most of the time and when it does drop down it's still 50% higher than 720p it's actually amazing that they can do that, I never new it was possible, I hope they start to do it for all games then we would never have frame rate problems again.

[Perforu]

I wonder if PS3 is capable of running Wipeout HD at 1080p all the time with 60 fps. My guess is that it was cheaper to introduce a dynamic frame buffer than optimize the code so that Wipeout would run smooth 60 fps at all times. I may be wrong of course..

[Darkdrium777]

Doesn't matter anyways, you don't notice it most of the times.

[Wip3ou7]

That is amazing technology and SL pioneered that if I'm not mistaken. That is groundbreaking!

[Perforu]

Don't get me wrong, it sure is a great idea, hats off for SL. I was just wondering what was the reason to apply it. Is it the limit of PS3 power or was it cheaper to implement dynamic framebuffer.

[captaingrim]

I wonder if PS3 is capable of running Wipeout HD at 1080p all the time with 60 fps. My guess is that it was cheaper to introduce a dynamic frame buffer than optimize the code so that Wipeout would run smooth 60 fps at all times. I may be wrong of course..

It wasn't a case of not wanting to optimise the code... the problem is that games don't necessary have a constant rendering cost all around the track and in all game situations. For a ship flying by itself around the track, we balance the amount of detail in the rendering models to make sure that we're roughly drawing the same amount of stuff all the time. In situations when there are lots of ships firing lots of weapons (SFX are quite expensive) this level can jump much higher than we can control. All we could do would be to reduce the amount drawn in these cases which would detract from the quality of the image.

The "throttling" technique was only ever used to "iron out" these situations. 99% of the time, the game was running solidly at 1920x1080!

[Perforu]

Thanks for joining the discussion :) Of course the render cost is a variable depending on many factors. I just thought that PS3 should be capable of dealing with even most demanding scenarios of a Wipeout HD race. Activision's CEO expects PS3 to last at least 8 years. So my guess was that PS3's computing power is far more than present games need (including Wipeout HD).

[captaingrim]

So my guess was that PS3's computing power is far more than present games need (including Wipeout HD).

Not at all. Wipeout was using a fair large percentage of the available power in the PS3. Of course there are areas which we could have done better or differently, and I'm sure the team will carry on learning and sqeezing where they can and making room on the processors for even more cool effects and features.

The main thing here is that, based on our understanding of the technology at the time, we wrote the engine then tried to use it to do as much as we could in the available time. Certain types of thing, such as particle effects can vary in rendering time exponentially depending on how big they are drawn on the screen, meaning that sometimes the rendering cost would shoot up drastically to levels that were impossible to render at 60Hz. This is just a fact of life with modern day GPUs and you see the same effect on ANY platform.

So in those situations, we throttle to smooth out the lumps. But these are exceptions... you need to look at the "flat" performance of the game under normal situations to really judge the performance...

Sorry if this seems like a rambling argument, but you must understand that the performance of modern games like these are subject to a lot of different factors which can sometimes fight against each other. We have to come up with strategies for rendering "general" situations optimally and then clever tricks to cover the exceptions!

[Perforu]

Not at all, it's a sound and fully understandable argument. And your approach seems to be the only sound one too. I guess that I just thought of a PS3 platform too much.. I'm quite positive about talented guys like you to be able to squeeze even more from this platform later on :)

[captaingrim]

Don't think about it like that. Any platform has finite potential, so no matter what you do there is always something else that you do extra. Any platform will have a limit, so don't worry about that and instead look at what stuff you HAVE got there that hasn't been seen on previous machines!

And believe me, the REALLY talented guys are still in Liverpool working on more cool stuff for you ;)

[Perforu]

I just can't help it, I was born a malcontent and can't help my pesimistic approach neither ;)
Anyway, congrats on Wipeout HD cause it sure is a job well done. And new cool stuff from SL is always welcome hehe

[kz_]

As a programmer who used to develop virtual and augmented reality systems for the military (and others), I can deeply respect the elegance of this solution. I started to pick up on it a bit last night when I was standing particularly close to my 42" TV (trying to get the Motion Master trophy), and woke up this morning to read this article.

The human brain has a limited capacity to process information (whether visual, auditory, or otherwise) and varying thresholds for "disturbing" those senses. Audio cannot ever stutter and video cannot change framerate during dynamic sequences... no game better displays the framerate issue than GTA IV on the PS3 -- sometimes drops even below 10 fps when there's a lot going on... and it's disorienting!

To have that level of framerate shift in a game with as much motion and action as WipEout would cause people to get ill from watching and cause severe physiological side effects... I applaud the engineering approach of recognizing that:

a) the times when you can't render at 1920x1080p60 are when there's a lot going on (visually and audibly)
b) those times are the most critical to maintain framerate and audio continuity
c) they're also the times when the brain is least likely to be trying to process detailed visual content
d) reducing horizontal resolution allows you to maintain framerate without disturbing the player

Horizontal resolution, particularly, is the least spatially sensitive part of the human visual system.

So, kudos to the graphics gurus at SL for picking this approach... I only wonder if Sony ever expected developers to do this (and provided an API to make it easy), or if somebody at SL came up with the system from scratch... whoever figured it out deserves a pat on the back!

/Andrew

[Skvall]

Didnt want to make a new thread for only one question. But im not totally satisfied with the framerate and wanted to ask you guys if you have exeperienced a more stable game in 720p than in 1080p?

[HydrogLox]

I was born a malcontent and can't help my pessimistic approach neither ;)

All joking aside - look at the improvements in game graphics made on the PlayStation between 1994-2000, on the PlayStation 2 between 2000-2006 and on the PSP since its introduction in 2004. All of these improvements are made while the platform remains stable and they are simply the result of the game developers finding new and innovative ways of utilizing the underlying hardware. Consoles will never be able beat the capabilities of their contemporary high-end PCs but then the graphics card of that high-end PC cost as much or more than the console and has to be upgraded every 18 months or so. PC game developers tend to develop for those bleeding-edge cards since their owners are the most likely group to buy new games, meanwhile owners of older cards have to "dial down" the game graphics in order to play the game. Meanwhile each console model uses the same type of graphics chip (Nvidia RSX in the case of the PS3) and sub-system which makes the effort to exploit every last smidgen of performance out of that hardware much more worthwhile for console game developers.

Furthermore this obsession with eye-candy can get a bit tiresome. "Wipeout HD" would still be a fantastic game even at non-HD resolutions simply because it still is "Wipeout" at its core and not just by name. While 1080p at 60 fps on the PS3 is crucial to Sony, the people at Studio Liverpool managed to translate the Wipeout experience to a 480 x 272 screen on the PSP with Pure and Pulse! Good games don't necessarily depend on horsepower (though it can make the developer's job easier). Let's not forget the other aspects of the game. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the people at SL took advantage of the PS3 cell architecture to improve the "local realization" of on-line multi-player races (over that found in Pulse). But horsepower of the console cannot guarantee longevity of the console - ultimately its longevity is largely influenced by the people who can design and implement imaginative (sometimes innovative, sometimes true to a set of core values) games for it, games that the mainstream public will buy.


wanted to ask you guys if you have experienced a more stable game in 720p than in 1080p?
Well, you know when you are experiencing these "problems", so you are in the best position to recreate them. Disallow 1080i and 1080p in the display settings on your PS3 and see if the "problems" go away. By necessity I'm running at 720p and I haven't observed any problems but then again I'm only cruising around Sol 2/Flash off-line events, so what do I know?

[cybrpnk]

Extremely well put...and this is the whole reason I chose the Sony brand over others...it because they have extremely talented game 'designers' to back them up...Studio Liverpool being one of the ones at the forefront...

I can honestly tell you...as soon as I heard WipEout was coming to the PS3...I was stoked...I didn't care what it would look like...didn't care about anything else...I knew that from the get go...we were in for a treat...

Then came the 1080p at 60fps slogan...and that was a plus...then came the screenshots of the game...which further sealed the deal...

Studio Liverpool in this sense have got their priorities right and fully understood the game they were developing and what the people who play this game look for...and I applaud this sound understanding of their target audience here...it is great to see developers connect so proficiently on this level and so much more...

[fusionfrenzy]

It is an inspired solution - I'm playing on a 1080p HDTV and I havent noticed any framerate issues nor have I noticed drops in resolution. And besides, it still runs in proper 1080p 99% of the time - it's just when you get quaked while driving into a bomb while turbo-ing - well, that's understandable really that the res is dropped. But since youre concentrating so hard, by the time you could see a difference, it's back at full 1080p again.

[Lance]

.
Would the newbies And the not-so-newbies please read the guidelines and stop quoting in full the posts that are right above their own on the page. We don't need to see the same text twice. Waste of everyone's time.
.

[captaingrim]

Disallow 1080i and 1080p in the display settings on your PS3 and see if the "problems" go away.

Whatever resolution you actually output to, the game still actually renders internally at 1920x1080 and then down-samples it to the target resolution.

[The Gracer]

therefore the game runs best on a true 1920 x 1080 panel, correct?

any actual image downsampling the console has to do would surely have an adverse effect on gameplay due to the added work that needs to be done - correct?

im so glad i have my little 24' HDMI computer monitor, 1080p looks phenomenal on it.

captaingrim - would you have an idea about the data output of the PS3 in regards to image and sound down the HDMI cable? what sort of cable bandwidth (in gbp/s) would be sufficient if you have any idea?

[captaingrim]

I believe the down-sampling to lower resolutions is "hidden" inside other full screen post-processing things, so it shouldn't make a difference. Crob is the best person to answer these kinds of questions though... And I don't really know about HDMI bandwidth issues. I've got a cheapy 2m one of ebuyer and it works a treat :)

[biglll]

A dev posts on here? nice!! the game looks and plays amazing, Thank you for making such a great game, Does the cell play a big part on making this game run and look so great??

[captaingrim]

Does the cell play a big part on making this game run and look so great??

Of course :)

[eLhabib]

HAHA what a perfectly executed PR answer ;)

[Lance]

Not to mention actually true. Which is certainly a change for PR. :g

[Crob]

Yes the Cell processor is absolutely necessary - without the Cell processor, you'd just get a black screen - nothing would happen when you turn it on.
It is possible to prove this with your own PS3, although your warranty may be affected.

</sarcasm>

Yes the Cell, especially the SPUs do a lot of the heavy lifting in WOHD, especially in terms of lighting.

[Sausehuhn]

It is possible to prove this with your own PS3, although your warranty may be affected.

I lol'ed :D

[Rapier Racer]

I never would have noticed this before, and I still don't notice it now :cowboy

Does anyone at SL not have a sense of humor? lol

[Egg]

Does the cell play a big part on making this game run and look so great??

What an odd question. If I was a cynic, I'd think this was someone gathering ammunition to use in a console war on some other ( less reputable ) forum.

;)

[Darkdrium777]

What war? We all know the PS3 is the best one and killed the other two, so nobody's left to fight that war...

:cowboy

[captaingrim]

Does anyone at SL not have a sense of humor? lol

I left SL 5 months ago and have built my way up slowly to knock-knock jokes and basic slapstick. I hope over the next few months to regain understanding of sarcasm and mild parody.

:|

[Yome NetSan]

Man I must have very poor eyes as I don't see any change in the resolution while i'm playing, I don't klnow how this article's writer can tell "this shot is 1500x1080, this one is ????x1080" (it's all the same for me) and I don't feel any framerate slowdown when I play split screen !
Is it serious doctor?

[Skvall]

Man I must have very poor eyes as I don't see any change in the resolution while i'm playing

I dont think anyone is able to see the difference.


I don't feel any framerate slowdown when I play split screen !
Is it serious doctor?

o_O Yes you need a doctor.

[Yome NetSan]

o_O Yes you need a doctor.

Really ? :eek
What is the difference really ? 60fps to 30fps ? I've always thought that mankind eye can only see 25fps, so what's the point ? :?
Does the game feels slower to you ? Do you see "missing" frame ?

No kinding I don't see any difference ! :redface: Even when Mario Kart Wii people can't stop complaining about the framerate drop in muplty player modes but I've never see anything...

[Dogg Thang]

There is a massive difference between a game running at 30fps and one running at 60fps. The myth that we can only see 25fps was likely thrown around when pal was being pushed as the standard tv format over here.

WO HD would not be half as pleasing on the eye (or perhaps exactly half as pleasing) running at 30fps and, if you had to drop down after getting used to 60fps, you'd notice. Especially at the high speeds, which make a drop much more apparent than in something like Mario Kart.

In an age where getting a stunning screenshot often takes priority over a smooth framerate, this is one area where I can't fault SL at all. Frame rate is everything here.

[Skvall]

We are told its 30fps in splitscreen yes. (compared to 60fps fullscreen)
But I thought it was so bad in splitscreen that I question the part about 30fps hehe, but it could be correct.

The game feels a lot slower in splitscreen and its not as smooth on the eyes either, so I guess I would say both slower and "missing frames".

I just played some Pulse on the PSP and turned it off immediately. I will never again be able to play that game. I knew it was bad and this was gonna happen before I even tried WOHD, but now I have experienced it too. =P

[Jambo]

The reason the frame rate seems so bad in split-screen is that you are now accustomed to the 60fps in single player mode. If you had never played the single player mode the split screen looks great!

[TearsToShreds]

Indeed. For anyone doubting the difference, play Wipeout HD for a couple of hours, then play some old Wip3out for the PS1. Last time I did that I thought my game was damaged or something.

[Alcachofa]

If it can help, here is a link about fps myths/facts :

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

[Jambo]

To be honest you can go and lay any game right after Wipeout HD and you will be surprised by how less impressive the frame rate is. Metal Gear Solid 4 is a great game should be owned by all that have a ps3 but it doesn't look smooth anymore!

[Skvall]

But it never did. ;)

[Jambo]

Lol, it did look good though but not as much now. My other gaming staple Gran turismo is a game that is suffering at the hands of WipEout HD the jaggies are everywhere!

[Sch@dows]

If it can help, here is a link about fps myths/facts :

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htmThanks for this interesting link, and thanks to the (ex) Wipeout crew for explanations and obviously ... for the wipeout series.

[Virtical]

Wow, clever, i hardly noticed anyway, very nifty little trick there!

[Lance]

[late response][my first read of the thread today]

"I left SL 5 months ago and have built my way up slowly to knock-knock jokes and basic slapstick. I hope over the next few months to regain understanding of sarcasm and mild parody."

LOL. I love this guy.

um... in a very manly, just friends sort of way, of course. ;)

[eLhabib]

It's guy-love, that's all it is, there's nothing gay about it in our eyeeeees.... (search it on youtube if you don't know it ;) => Scrubs)

[captaingrim]

um... in a very manly, just friends sort of way, of course. ;)

Damn, and I'd just gone and got the butter out of the fridge...

[Lance]

Hey, just cos I'm gay doesn't mean I can't be just friends. :g


BTW, real butter doesn't work all that well. ;)


Uh.. I think we may be veering off topic. :twisted

[paranoid_android]

Does the game vsync also? </turns red> (might be somewhat stupid question, cause I don't know anything about PS3 hardware or game engine)

[Sausehuhn]

@ eL

"No hands!" ;)

[Dogg Thang]

Does the game vsync also?

I know little about hardware too but I think the screen tearing means that the answer to this is no. The tearing is not frequent though. Not anywhere near as much as Pulse.

[captaingrim]

Does the game vsync also?

It does, except for when it doesn't!

[Sch@dows]

... and who said (former) SL members didn't have sense of humour ? >_<

[captaingrim]

But I really don't have a sense of humour... that's the truth! It vsyncs almost all of the time, except for certain points when it doesn't...

[Skvall]

Like every lap at the last turn before finishline on Metropia even though you are alone on the track. =P

[Sch@dows]

But I really don't have a sense of humour... that's the truth! It vsyncs almost all of the time, except for certain points when it doesn't...If you say so ... then I really like your lack of humour ^_~.

I understand your "explanation" (I think :|) but what matters to me is the fact I could enjoy the game without being annoyed by technical issues. In that way i'm very please (for now) with WOHD so keep going with your great ideas, wherever you all go.

[Jambo]

Like every lap at the last turn before finishline on Metropia even though you are alone on the track. =P

Some screen tearing occurs due to Television. Sometimes!

I personally have only had screen tearing during split screen.

Also @ El, I love Scrubs it is great....

@ Captaingrim, that butter comment is just plain wrong lol

[Skvall]

Im gonna see if the screentearing appears on my friends television. But the game drops in framerate too so I would be a little surprised to see the game in 60fps and no screentearing because of another tv. =P

[Amon]

For what it's worth i've yet to see any screen tearing at all on my set.

Hdmi connection to a Sony KDL-40W3000

[darkfaerytales]

sorry, i haven't read the entire thread , but i have to know if a thing that happen on my screen happens with someone of you too

when i zoom on the back, on the engine/exhaust of some ships the immage become disturbed if i move the ship keeping the zoom in that part , expecially it happens with mirage, the screen seems to "tear" or so , the immage became disturbed when i zoom and pass on the back of that ship...

apart from that all is perfect with the game and my TV

[Darkdrium777]

Uhh if this only happens in Photo mode, sorry to be blunt but: 'Who cares?'

I have not noticed tearing or slowdowns in the game when racing so all is good. The only 'problem' is you have to get used to 30FPS in split screen after seing the solo in 60FPS, but there are no slowdowns in split-screen that are game hindering (Yes, you notice the FPS change, but the game plays the same otherwise.)