HD's AI

[The Gracer]

Is anyone else finding the new 'Elite' AI really really hard to beat? Especially on Chenghou? it just took me about 25mins and 7 or 8 tries to beat it in the second grid....

[lunar]

They do make you work, yes. I think it`s cool that you have to fly reasonably fast just to catch them. In one race I saw the leading ship holding a plasma, waiting for me to pass, so I had to make sure to take him out before I went past. Touches like that are quite impressive AI.

[The Gracer]

I was being brutalized at the back of the field in 7th 8th place, unable to catch the leaders!:redface: it takes some extremely crafty flying and some precise weaponwork to beat them, for sure.

[eLhabib]

While I do appreciate the really hard AI, I think it takes it a little too far sometimes. Try a race on Sebenco Climb Phantom with Elite AI and you'll know what I am talking about. They fly lines that are impossible - and I'm not saying that as a noob. I did a couple of perfect laps, all speed pads, really nice line, and still got passed by AI ships (no turbo pickups involved). Autopilots really become valuable then, when you activate them you are somehow a lot faster than racing the same line yourself. Something's not perfectly straight here...

[The Gracer]

I like having competent AI. i found the pure/pulse AI lacking in competitiveness, and i was constantly winning races by 3 seconds or more. This AI im fighting till the end, and then some. Sure, it can be a little bullshit at times, but patches can fix obvious discrepancies, cant they?

[RJ O'Connell]

Elite difficulty sounds very tantalizing. My biggest complaint about XL was the AI felt brain dead, very rarely when playing Wipeout do I ever feel like I'm really working for a victory...

[Darkdrium777]

Elite is really hard this time, good luck on finishing first the first time. It does take some practice, but I managed to beat them eventually. Of course it takes a good dose of luck too, you don't want to be hit by weapons' fire too much.

[Hellfire_WZ]

I've dropped the AI down to Skilled, Elite are just too brutal and you feel like breaking something when they press the bullshit buttons.. The Skilled AI still give you a really good race without the frustration.

[rdmx]

Elite:eek Ridiculously savage. So much more difficult than Pulse's Hard AI :brickwall

[oggob]

The AI is clearly the most advanced for a WipEout game, but there are times where I find it programmed similar to that of 2097... well not entirely...

I feel as though still the AI is doing enough to stay in front of you for the majority of the way... where 2097 is that you couldn't get into first until "Lap X"... so if you go crap, you have no chance, but even if you are flying well, they are either still in front of you early on... and towards the end, they are right there and/or getting reasonable catch up to make sure you work for it...

oh well, it's a challenge... and that's what it's supposed to be, but like all there are times where you feel robbed because you know that shouldn't have happened...

[ColdRem'S]

IMO the elite AI is really too hard especially on Chenghou!:brickwall
Like said above, the AI is too fast! it's a bit like Mario kart: the AI cheats to be competitive. I HATE this method!
The ships' capacities are not respected: take a Goteki and everyone will thrust better than you, take an Icaras and you'll be overtaken in straight line!
Moreover, the AI taking a hit (rockets for ex) doesn't slow down as much as a player would, which is very frustrating. Yes, FRUSTRATING is the word, as in Mario Kart!:bomb
Also, in a good "hard mode" I think a GOOD player should be able to win almost any race, which is, IMO,not the case here. The amount of luck needed is too important.
As a consequence, the "arcade perfect" trophy is gonna be a tough one to get.

[flashbax]

Yeah i know where u guys are coming from..My poor pad is suffering as a result lol...i had to turn the game off and chill it p£$$%d me off that much:bomb

[bakkufu]

the thing thats dissapointing is that the elite AI is set so high that it comes down to luck with weapons, on TOP of taking great racing lines that lets you beat it. Well at least thats how it seems to me as I was lucky with Chengou, I got a couple of quakes at the starting lap which let me overtake early and breakaway!

[kanar]

oh YES it's insane. I really hope it's just because we started last thursday. I'm really afraid to begin a phantom race in the meldown grid now, after all the hours already spent to get all the elite gold before... I've clearly the feeling the AI is cheating to spare time in a lap, guns are the unique chance to get the lead... Hope to laugh about that thread in 6 months!

[bakkufu]

so do I, means we'll all have gotten better at piloting :D

[Darkdrium777]

ColdRem's, I was thinking about the same thing for the ship capacities. They are really not respected. I know how you feel, but keep practising guys and eventually the luck/skill balance will be, well, more balanced.

[Syntek]

While I do appreciate the really hard AI, I think it takes it a little too far sometimes. Try a race on Sebenco Climb Phantom with Elite AI and you'll know what I am talking about. They fly lines that are impossible - and I'm not saying that as a noob. I did a couple of perfect laps, all speed pads, really nice line, and still got passed by AI ships (no turbo pickups involved). Autopilots really become valuable then, when you activate them you are somehow a lot faster than racing the same line yourself. Something's not perfectly straight here...

Agreed. I've seen this on many occasions. I'm thinking maybe its my pitch? but it turns out it wasn't. it still did the same thing for some weird reason.

[multibodydynamics]

This is great news! I am not alone...
Raced Chenghou last night with Elite opponents. A lot of swearing was involved I can tell you, until the 20th try or something. I finally got that gold medal but man!, you really have to take all speed pads, all possible barrel rolls plus a couple of turbos to make it! Once, I was second place in the last corner with a quake. Guess who got pissed off when I accidentally absorbed it! This game just might be to much for me to handle... :dizzy

[Hellfire_WZ]

Just raced the Elite AI again on Chenghou while going for the Elite Campaign Master Trophy. It does honestly seem to me that the game determines before the start of the race whether it is possible for you to win or not. I had an excellent race, hitting every speed pad, barrel rolling wherever I could, even a couple of turbos thrown in. I finished 6th with absolutely no hope of catching anyone in front of me. I then had another go, putting in nearly the same race time, and won.

Logic defies me...

[Nunalho]

The AI in ELITE is soo damn hard, i wonder if i ll get that trophy...

[Lance]

Sounds like a more extreme version of the Arcade mode on the original Gran Turismo.

[multibodydynamics]

I did experience this to. Sometimes last, sometimes battling for the medals... I doubt it is determined before the race. I actually think it is all about the pickups. If you get a turbo in the beginning and firing it off over the two small jumps you can get up to 3rd on the first lap, but if the AI:s in front don´t pound each other hard with weapons they disappear in the horizon. So it is actually a matter of being a little lucky with the pickups.

[Task]

Autopilots really become valuable then, when you activate them you are somehow a lot faster than racing the same line yourself. Something's not perfectly straight here...Agreed. I've seen this on many occasions. I'm thinking maybe its my pitch? but it turns out it wasn't. it still did the same thing for some weird reason.Yeah, that's usually a hallmark of overusing a cheap-n-easy AI design.
What I mean is, to make a bad AI opponent tougher, you can either make the AI "smarter" (really tough to do!) or you can just make it go faster. So you make them always travel at 110% speed, and you can only do 100%, so they're normally faster than you. Then you take the Autopilot, and while it's activated your ship follows the same rules as the AI ships, which means suddenly you can do 110% speed. Which is why you're faster with an Autopilot and why the AI ships are so annoying to you with their speed-without-effort.

That's my guess at it anyway. 8 )

[Darkdrium777]

Also if you get hit with one weapon, consider it as game-over unless you can drive well and not hit walls, at all (Or just a little). This will prevent some frustration, as otherwise you will be anxious until the finish where you will be everywhere but first place.
Luck with pickups yes, but not only. You also have to drive very well, and IMHO driving well is still the most important part. If you scrape too many walls, you will lose, no matter how many quakes, rockets, missiles or plasmas you will get.

[leungbok]

Sure, Dark, i always considered that, in wipeout, the weapons use was to clean the road ;)

[eLhabib]

@Task: that's what I meant, yes. Might not be 110% speed, but they sure defy the game's physics in some turns.

[Task]

8 ) That's another good sign of a fast-n-cheap AI.
If they don't follow the same rules the player does, they're obviously playing by a different set.

Not a big surprise, really. It's quite difficult to create a good AI opponent and this was supposed to be a quick release, there was likely never time to craft a good AI opponent.

Hardly necessary, what with the solid online capabilities they built into it!

[eLhabib]

Just want to state loud and clear that the AI is a real charm to race at 'skilled' difficulty, they almost feel like human players there, so it's not all bad ;)

[Syntek]

Well I just got my Arcade Perfect Trophy. I hope I don't have to race elite AI on sebenco or Chenghou on phantom again. my god, that was extremely frustrating.

[Sch@dows]

Does the "Elite" difficulty you're talking about is a secret 4th difficulty level ? or is it the 3rd one (It seems to me that there were only 3 difficulty level, in french version : "Facile" (easy?), Normal (normal?), Difficile (hard?/elite?)

At 3rd difficulty level, I was really frustrated on sebenco climb (3rd grid) because I was left behind even with some boost (when I was lucky enough to get them).
Then I decided to left it and the same happened on moa therma.

When I checked the control options, I've seen that the parameter "Sensibilité accélération" (Acceleration sensibility ?), just below airbrake sensibility, was set to 70% which isn't the default value.
I reset it to default (20-30% i don't remember), and suddently victory on the 2 races (sebenco climb and moa therma) wasn't only a dream anymore.

Do someone understand this option and its effect ?

[Rapier Racer]

The higher the number the harder you need to push the button.

The Elite AI is a bastard yes but come on people, it's a challenge and no ones forcing you to compete against them just drop it down a notch. It's annoying sometimes but it's even more satisfying when you beat them.

Once you thoroughly learn a track and know where to pitch the luck factor is reduced severely. The Elite can kiss my ass, I've got the trophy to prove it :P

[Asayyeah]

I like those Elite AI ships with their nasty suicidal techniques : keeping the right weapon till you pass them or just flying perfectly over the last ChenGhou chicane.
My point of view it's a great challenge to acheive and i am enjoying it so much.( on a sidenote i don't have internet access for online gaming atm where i am studying at least tomorrow i ll return to Le Havre ready for HD online and see if my arse will be kicked in an 'elite' way :twisted

[Wip3ou7]

Oh yeah, the AI is definately bullshit sometimes. Just a second ago I was racing on Phantom/Elite on Chengou Project and during the big fall in mid air about half way down the drop I get hit by ROCKETS!! WHAT THE F'?? THAT IS COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE! MID-FALL I GET HIT BY ROCKETS?!?!

[Rapier Racer]

It is possible if there was another ship behind you also in fall with rockets, I know cos I've shot people and been shot by rockets when falling during Pure.

[lunar]

I like elite. It seems less weapon-heavy than hard AI in Pulse. It cheats a bit, but it`s good training. :)

[Syntek]

I like elite. It seems less weapon-heavy than hard AI in Pulse. It cheats a bit, but it`s good training. :)

i hope thats a joke. whenever you're near last place, its a mine field. that or whenever you're first, its a cannon fest or missles.

[xtriko]

I'm losing my mind here! I almost broke my DS3 with my explosion of rage at sebenco climb phantom elite! can anyone do 2:04:71 on it? somehow, the AI did. my best was 2:07:? (don't remember) lol.
I can't beat the elite on Sebenco, Chengou and Ubermall...
goin' to drink some whisky cola to relex :P

[The Gracer]

Perseverance my fellow pilots!

it may be hard but its not impossible. :) Although there is a huge luck element.

I think this is what a REAL AG-race would be like - Surely the pilots would use every weapon to their advantage? Perhaps the AI does cheat a bit but the sense of achievement after finally beating them is wondrous :)

[Wip3ou7]

phantom/elite chenghou is very hard... sebenco is f'ing impossible... ubermall i did without much trouble.

[fusionfrenzy]

I don't think I'm going to bother playing on Elite difficulty. I've been playing Wipeout for years, so probably could, but I dont want to. It doesnt sound fun, just ridiculous. AI that cheats makes me want to avoid it out of principle, and if i'm going to get enraged instead of enjoyment, doesn't that defeat the point?

Nah, i'll stick to Skilled. They give an aggressive, realistic, firm but fair(er) race.

[Wip3ou7]

well im finally down to one last elite tournament... the 8 race tourney in the middle of grid 8... everything else is elite/phatom gold.

UPDATE: YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY I GOT ELITE TOURNAMENT LEGEND!

[Darkdrium777]

Well, either I'm very lucky on my own part, but once you get the hang of the Elite AI they become ''rather'' easy to beat. I have two major pointers for everyone:

1. Speed. Speed all the way. Hit all the pads, and do all the BRs. Very important. I found that out when trying to beat Chengou on Venom. The lead AI was putting a 7 secs lead after half the first lap. When you hit all the speed pads, you get back to him up his ass at the last lap, so passing him is no trouble from there. So speed first, weapons later.
2. About weapons, on tracks with BRs like Chengou: absorb only and use when you don't need to absorb. Because you will be doing BRs primarily, and they take off 15%. When on a track with no BRs though, fire, always (Except when it's mines or Bomb and you're in eight, that is common sense). Absorb when you only get hit.

Also, if you get hit more than two times, you need to restart. Unless you are really lucky you will not be able to get first place.
If you respect these two tips, you'll see it becomes much easier.

Remember: Speed first, weapons later. ;)

Good luck.

I'm currently replaying the campaign on elite, onto the seventh or eight tier (The green and black one) No troubles yet and I think I won't get any, I already beat Meltdown on elite. I use my tips and it works really well, try it out ;)

[KingTalo]

While I do appreciate the really hard AI, I think it takes it a little too far sometimes. Try a race on Sebenco Climb Phantom with Elite AI and you'll know what I am talking about. They fly lines that are impossible - and I'm not saying that as a noob. I did a couple of perfect laps, all speed pads, really nice line, and still got passed by AI ships (no turbo pickups involved). Autopilots really become valuable then, when you activate them you are somehow a lot faster than racing the same line yourself. Something's not perfectly straight here...


I agree wholeheartedly, i'm no pro (tho i just finished campaign on elite :) ) but when you nail every turbo pad and they still manage to overtake you i just... i don't know.

Oh and yeah the Autopilot seems to increase your speed...

[trk_rkd]

Just want to throw in my two cents here... I kind of agree with elhabib, ColdRem's et al that the AI takes it a bit too far. Chengou on elite phantom is an ideal example of what's wrong with the AI: it's not just that it's difficult, it's that it does stuff that i can't do like take that first 90 left at full speed, seemingly without airbreaks. It races like it's on autopilot the whole time, with that otherwordly agility and speed. also, while the AI can easily bump you off your racing line, it seems almost rigidly fixed on its. This means jostling matches always end up with you as the loser. (indeed such incidents screw me up more than the enemy weapons). As others have said, the fact that a good race on some tracks comes down to autopilot is a little ridiculous. I suppose i'm just a little frustrated... I got through the last grid of the race campaign without getting too irritated by it (fluking my way through the tournament with a 1 point victory, phew!) but now i'm doing all those tracks again for the Arcade Perfect trophy and it just feels a little cheap. Still brilliant though, it's fantastic having a proper wipeout back on console and the picture mode is oddly addictive.

[Wip3ou7]

I found that the exact opposite was easier. It was impossible to outrun the AI even when running perfect laps with BRs and turbos hit. I found the only way to beat them was to give priority to weapon pads over turbo pads and keep nailing them with weapons.

[Belegurx]

Well i have to absolutly agree that the AI is specially hard on Chengou and Sabenco mostly cos they do impossible lines like elhabib said... but what completly makes me out of my nerves is that they always seem to have the apropiate weapon loaded like mines or bombs when im right behind them or missiles when im finally able to pass someone... while i only get mines when im going 8th and if i ever get 1st they just give me rockets... i hardly get a turbo or an autopilot on the 5 laps of a Phantom race... really, its frustrating...

[Roz]

Sure the Elite give challenge but I would prefer the challenge depended most on my skill to fly rather than my luck on weapons. Actually, even if I'm lucky with weapons the AI still doesn't care if it's hit or not. Once a Mirage took a bomb right in the face in the last Chenghou turn. I passed it, took the pads and looked behind. She didn't took the pads but somehow managed to pass me again on the first turn to the right. I was with Assegai btw, same speed and same thrust.

Things like this are pretty ridiculous.

[trk_rkd]

Cheeky... Can't say I had much trouble on metropia, I mean I'd be lying if I said I could beat it every time on Phantom Elite but I can definitely get it more often than not. I also do ok on sebenco racing AG-sys, that craft handles that course pretty well, provided I don't get slammed by a bomb on the last two laps I can usualy place every time even on elite phantom. Chengou is infuriating though, the cheating by the AI is obscene on that course. Ah well, I've got Arcade Perfect and Elite Race Campaign Gold, pressure is off as far as the AI is concerned. Hopefully SL doesn't feel the need to turn things up any higher than they are already come the release of the DL packs!

EDIT: This post was in response to one formerly above me that appears to have been deleted since. Apologies if it seems out of context.

[Darkdrium777]

As I said, my tips work, but there is no doubt the Elite AI cheats.
But really what you've got to do is keep working at it, speed is very important since the AI already does a pretty good job of shooting themselves (I say pretty good job because on some rare occasions the leader gets away and puts up to ten seconds of lead between him and you who is in second place) so all you've got to go for is the fastest line, which includes most if not all the speed pads and the barrel rolls.
Also, if you are about to lose, don't throw the controller, just pause and restart. I know it sounds simple to say at first, but believe me, once you get passed the fact that the AI is broken and cheats and whatever, the swearing stops. It is possible to beat them, just not all the times. ;)
Good luck :)

[Rapier Racer]

also, while the AI can easily bump you off your racing line, it seems almost rigidly fixed on its. This means jostling matches always end up with you as the loser.

Uh huh this is something that really annoys me if an AI smashes into you during a corner for example you loose all your speed while they saunter off unharmed, who thought this was a good idea? Seriously?

So I thought at first it was a ship weight thing and because and Assegai is supposed to be light and nimble that was why I was getting bashed about. Revenge! I thought when I took out Triakis......wrong.

[Lance]

I think the Elite AI was made so difficult precisely because so many people complained about Wipeout AI being too easy to beat. So now you have a truly difficult challenge where victory can only be accomplished by the highly talented and persistent. If you beat the Elite AI despite their cheating and unfair advantages, you can feel really proud of yourself for doing so.

[lunar]

Well said, Lance. It`s not a Real AG Racing Simulator and isn`t meant to be. It`s tough arcade racing and a challenge. I just look at it like that and it doesn`t worry or disapoint me. At least you have to fly fast to win now. In old wipeouts the ships did slow cheating - ie going too slow compared to how they would in real life and thus letting you win too easily - I`d rather have this, with super-ramming, autopiloted AI ships, it`s not impossible, as several have proved, and it keeps you busy! :)

[kanar]

Well, So I'm really proud of myself tonight lol (thanks again Darkdrium for the absorb/go fast tips)... But I lost sooo many time in this AI struggle... Haven't seen any reverse track in the campaign lol... & I won't talk about my horrible SL times anywhere. I need practice. But now I feel free to go to that racebox section, doing SL 99 laps, SL 99 laps.....

[alterego]

Hi All.

Elite AI is very strong in HD, but......I'm look at race time of the AI ships VS mine and I feel there's a little adjustment during multiple attempts....

When you start the sequence of attempts the AI ships win with a lot of sec, even if well run.
After.... the race time of AI increases in armony with your improvement in velocity...

It's only my feelings about AI Elite system.......faster best, first win.

Read You Soon
CdRom

[Syntek]

I think the Elite AI was made so difficult precisely because so many people complained about Wipeout AI being too easy to beat. So now you have a truly difficult challenge where victory can only be accomplished by the highly talented and persistent. If you beat the Elite AI despite their cheating and unfair advantages, you can feel really proud of yourself for doing so.

2 hours a race isn't something to be proud of. Most of the time, I felt frustrated and stressed on how I can take turns and barrel roll like a champ, but the competition is 5 seconds still ahead of me. Most of the time, it has to do with weapon pick ups. It's truely about luck.



-If you take a power up instead of a speed pad, 75-80% of the time it's a worthless power up anyways because I noticed you get mines and bombs at last palce, but rockets and cannons whenever you're in first.

-Take a speed pad instead of a power up results in getting mined or cannoned to hell.

[Roz]

The above is very true. It's not just about skill, I would be fine if it was. But luck just plays a far to greater role in trying to beat the Elite AI.

[Nunalho]

I am currently trying to get Elite in all campaing races, i am going on the 6th Cell.

I have to say this AI is really cheap, it cheats a lot really and it should be like this.
Why is that if i shoot them, they just slow down but never stop? Why is it that regarless the ship i am using they always seem faster?

I think the dev team should tone it down a little, and this comes from a Wipeout purist.
We need soo much luck, too much imo, and not so much skill.

[alterego]

Hi All!

Elite's AI Bastard Inside!!!

I was running in ubermall in venom class.
In the second round I was in second place.
In the third round I run near the first, but out of its path.
In the last chicane I charge a turbo, rejoice between me thinking about the next victory ;)
I align my ship with the climb before the finish and I see the first front of me on the other side of the track, than Shooting turbo, that makes me sideshifting and then 'stop' to me ...... Aaaargh! go beyond the goal, while I see flying above me another ship ..... and I am the third!

I want to build a team of Bastard Elite AI Ships Destroyers!!!

Read You Soon
CdRom

[Asayyeah]

lol Romano i can feel your pain, but right after you got the hang on HD you ll think differently about those AI Elite bastards. I can tell you it's such a great training trying to beat them cause it's a great preparation to fight online.
I remember time where AI was clearly cheating ( not the speed advantage but rather the 'dodging movement' i mean in 2097/XL the ship right in front of you knows in 'advance' your route and will suddenly do like a sideshift in order to move right in front of your nose : you hit his back and you slowdown.

I really prefer by far those HD AI elite ships and for those who are saying they are clearly faster everytime than you , let me say they are wrong : when you beginn to master the hardest tracks with shortest line and find the good BR vibe you ll be able to pass them around lap2 or 3 without any huge weapon luck ( i did finished one time 1st on lap1 on seb climb but had 2 turbos and shield was critical due to massives BR while lap1). AI are 5%faster but not doing the perfect lines and no BR for them so it's doable, trust me.

Keep practising and you ll find them easier to beat ( still difficult but goal is definitly possible to reach)

[alterego]

Hi Asa-Sensei, hi All!

I'm totally agree with you....sure!

I say my race adventure only for having a big smile togheter with other pilots!

In reality I really love the HD Elite AI.....when I Win I feel an adrenalinic warm inside! :D

for now I'm starting Meltdown.....eh eh eh....near the End, but starting the real fun!

Read You Soon
CdRom

[kanar]

I had to go back to that campaign mode cos' my save crashed. I said to myself : you're hardcore, do it in elite mode! And I did it... in 4 hours. Of course I'm not a killer dude, that's not my point. My point is, after 3 months, I found this poor elite AI retarded, even on chenghou or Sebenco. Really, that was a good surprise, because I still remember the difficulties I experienced 3 months ago...

[H3avyM3tal]

Same here, what I did in 10-20 tries 2 months ago, I now do in less than 5, and on tracks that don't have climb and probect in their name, I do on the first try (most of the time).

What was elite at first has become avarage.

[trentdf]

i have a feeling they dialled down the elite AI when they introduced that "everything has a difficulty" patch- 1.2?
before the patch, i was really struggling in elite races, especially on chengou and sebenco, but after the patch i did the races in a couple of tries, and im pretty sure i won chengou even though i fell off in the first lap.

[Laeke]

As Task said: the AI cheats, but that was probably the only way to make it really competitive while adapting it to the player's skill.

Sure the rubberbanding is kind of annoying, but if the Elite AI consisted of ships making "fixed" times, it would be very frustrating and hard at first (this would basically require to do a good TT... and this would be too similar to the actual TT, with more handicaps.), then once you got past the skill level required, you would almost constantly win. For instance, I do not think the AI ever do BR, while the player will at some point start to master it (if you are going for Elite races, you are also likely to do Elite TT and SL which I believe requires you to throw in a couple one). Doing a BR in a race is more risky but if it would give you a substantial lead out of most weapon's reach...

Sure, maybe the AI could have been better. However, while I am no expert, it is possible that programming an AI for a racer might have its own difficulties. In other types of games, the AI can try to flank you. In WO, apart from being faster (or slowing you down more efficiently), well...

The Autopilot does have strange racing lines... and it is not immune from sending your ship off track :lol

[yeldar2097]

too bloody right about AP sending you flying somewhere you shouldn't be.
NEVER use it on the weird bouncy cambered left hander (3rd corner?). i swear it's slower cos it doesn't pitch so you bounce like a (bouncy) ball, and it very often gets stuck on the tunnel entrance.

has anyone else found that the elite AI in the reverse races is significatly easier to beat? i had far less trouble with arcade perfect than i anticipated, not that i'm complaining.

also, distinctly mediocre pilot that i am, i wonder if it's possible to match AP's lines and speeds through some of the sections where it blitzes corners like it's on speed?

[kanar]

also, distinctly mediocre pilot that i am, i wonder if it's possible to match AP's lines and speeds through some of the sections where it blitzes corners like it's on speed?

Mate, you're probably not mediocre at all, and believe me: there's guys here able to do far better than these weird doped AI racing lines!

Damn I spent my day here, & I'm at work...:paperbag

[bik3rluke]

How do they manage to corner so fast? Say for example, the first u-turn on Sebenco Climb. They take it sooo fast and I always get passed there. I've even seem them boost as they enter the corner and still make it round perfectly! Really annoys me.

[bik3rluke]

too bloody right about AP sending you flying somewhere you shouldn't be.
NEVER use it on the weird bouncy cambered left hander (3rd corner?). i swear it's slower cos it doesn't pitch so you bounce like a (bouncy) ball, and it very often gets stuck on the tunnel entrance.
Haha, Auto Pilot once flew me into the top of the bridge on that corner exit! :lol

[Connavar]

I agree with kanar, I used to find Elite AI very tough, but I tried 20 races
2 days ago, and won 17 of them, which would never happen online for example,
so it's pretty easy in fact, compared to a month ago.

I'm sure it's because I kept hitting walls in the past, if you don't then the
AI is just good, but is not doing any BR and is giving you A LOT of weapons
for free... which an online player wouldn't.

[yeldar2097]

i've found the AI are really good at some corners and pretty dire at others. take sebenco for example: 1st hairpin, they take me every time (unless i have AP:)), 3rd hairpin, they are utterly useless, it's like they're blind. ok maybe not quite that bad but you get my point. i suppose they can't be perfect but the 1st and 3rd corners are polar opposites. can't they even it out a little,
Also, does AP make you go faster. i think it does but i don't know the normal speeds on straight sections?
And can people really do the chenghou hairpin like AP? that just ain't fair.

[kanar]

...And can people really do the chenghou hairpin like AP? that just ain't fair.

well, some pilots here are able to do much better, because... practice/patience -& good settings- are everything. This is why this game is SO awesome. I have the feeling I discussed that the whole day with you guys into different threads lol, what's the meaning of wipeout. Hard to put words on that but again, what a feeling to ride -decently- at phantom speed. Never felt that before with a videogame. This is not a videogame. I'm really intoxicated. My last post tonight LOL. Yeldar check the video thread!

[yeldar2097]

having a good race is unbeatable i agree. intoxicated by the game or bourré? or both, that's good too! i will, although i have a sneaking suspicion that i'll end up depressed after watching the masters do things properly

[kanar]

LOL not bourré, just emphasized too much; like often

[yeldar2097]

well it's easily done, especially with wipeout. it's far too good, i love it!
wipeout+bourré would make me very very dizzy. maybe i'll try it

[H3avyM3tal]

Wipeout HD and a good bottle of whiskey makes the game unique in a, ummm, different way. Colors are more vivid :)

[chboing]

i tried some race the other days, knowing perfectly i wont be able of nothing good cause of all the beer and wine and rhum i had drink. But friends pushed me.
It ended up with some 1st place and my new personnal record on 2 circuits.

i will try it again tomorrow and maybe tell you about it again ;)

dunno what happened, i was clearly drunk and wouldnt have taken my car ! (not totally wasted though...)

back on topic : i'm not sure that someone can take the harpin of chenghou faster/better than autopilot ...

[Darkdrium777]

There is a way to do it very fast by being really close to the outside wall, turning, passing really close to the inner wall and continuing to turn (You wouldn't hit the outside wall this way) without letting go of the thrust, however it still isn't as fast as the AP (At least on Chengou Reverse, don't remember Chengou forward as I almost never use AP on it).

[yeldar2097]

yeah that's usually the way i try to go about it, but i often get mashed into the wall unless i'm way in front or way behind.

[pirahpac]

back on topic : i'm not sure that someone can take the harpin of chenghou faster/better than autopilot

hmm i dont think auto pilot do a barell roll in the turn before hairpin..;)..so ..

[Darkdrium777]

Apparently Motorstorm has even worse rubber-banding AI than WipEout HD, so SL might have shared that already with ES, or the reverse. ;)

[IH8YOU]

Autopilot makes the ship go faster in almost any scenario - especially straightaways. Get a good stretch, and activate an autopilot - watch your speed jump up.

I use them as "ghetto turbos" between pads.

Some corners I realize it takes slower than a perfect-line done manually - but with the speed boost - I'd venture to guess it can take Chengou hairpin faster.

[Laeke]

Yeah I think there is no question, even though sometimes the racing lines on the AP are very weird... and that it will sometimes disengage in strange positions.

There are some cases where I am not sure it will actually outrun an human pilot. In the first straight of Anulpha, is taking the three speed pads (in an oblique line) more beneficial than AP? Maybe... But that is a very specific case: maybe the AP speed boost makes up for any speed pads he misses (quite a few actually?).
I think you are right about the hairpin: no way to make it there faster than the AP... However, I'd rather be slower in the turn (I often let go of the thrust there) with a boost ready for the first jump.

[eLhabib]

Wait a minute... AP makes you go faster on a straightaway?! :eek What's the logic behind that?

[Connavar]

logic is to make it useful, if it didn't go faster, then it would be a completely useless item
once you know how to take corners correctly.

[eLhabib]

I know how to take corners correctly, but still I find the AP useful on some tracks, because it's simply undistractable. It's great for fighting your way through a tight pack at the beginning of a race. Or if I know there's a tricky section coming up, I sometimes keep the AP, just in case something leads to me approaching the tricky corner in a wrong way - I can still activate AP to correct my messing up. Making AP faster on straights would be overpowering it.

[IH8YOU]

It does, find a straight stretch and max out your speed (without speed pads or anything) Pay attention to how fast you're going.

Grab an autopilot, and on the next lap, use it in the same spot.

Try doing this on Venom or Flash, as on slower classes its even more obvious. (and gives you more time to gawk at your speed display)

Or maybe it's just a hidden turbo that only works for us cool cats who use the 2097 HUD. ;)

[Laeke]

It's actually "logical" that the AP makes you go a tad faster, otherwise it would have way too little use. As I said, I'm pretty sure the lines you get in AP miss several speed pads (Like in Anulpha Pass). The boost you get is also minimal, so all things considered, the ship go faster but it doesn't mean you'll get there any sooner. Oh and I wonder if at some point (like November 08), the AP would not take you on the Anulpha shortcut... I was pretty sure of that, but then I tried recently and it did take the shortcut so... maybe I am messing up my memories with a previous WO?

[yeldar2097]

yeah i think the autopilot has several lines depending on the situation, or just how much it wants to annoy you.
it takes me on the anulpha overpass about 50% of the time so the other 50 i just start swearing like a mad dement. i try not to use it near there just in case but i'd like to know if anyone knows why it does that?

[rdmx]

That section is fairly easy to be honest - get on the overpass first, THEN use the autopilot - the autopilot will keep you on and you'll go faster than normal to boot. Score :)

[Task]

Wait a minute... AP makes you go faster on a straightaway?! :eek What's the logic behind that?Well, the way AP has typically been implemented is that it hands control of your ship over to the computer. As in, the exact same way all the AI are controlled. In most of the games, the AI was pretty slow, so AP was pretty slow. In HD, the Elite AI are kind of fast, so the AP should be just as fast. No big surprise.

I would venture a guess that if you knock the AI down to "easy", the AP will be slow again. And AP will only be "fast" if you're using Elite AI.

Just a theory.

Somebody test it out and let us know maybe? 8 )

[Darkdrium777]

No testing done, but I'm inclined to think that you are right Task.

[Connavar]

Well, the way AP has typically been implemented is that it hands control of your ship over to the computer
Agreed.


As in, the exact same way all the AI are controlled. In most of the games, the AI was pretty slow, so AP was pretty slow. In HD, the Elite AI are kind of fast, so the AP should be just as fast. No big surprise.
I disagree here:

1) The AP makes you go faster than the Elite AI does when it doesn't use
the AP itself.

Whenever I use it (or anyone), my ship will go noticeably faster than the
Elite AI and should normally overtake other ships, if not then will get me
much closer to them.

Another way to prove it is to compare the Elite AI vs AP on chenghou long left
curve, Elite AI will never get stuck, while you would, so it's obviously not
the same, in fact it's because the AP is using the same racing line as the AI
but with more speed, which causes some effects such as going higher with the
bumps (and getting stuck) or using more weird airbraking (first curve on
chenghou), just because it'll follow the line perfectly.



I would venture a guess that if you knock the AI down to "easy", the AP will be slow again. And AP will only be "fast" if you're using Elite AI.

Just a theory.

Somebody test it out and let us know maybe? 8 )

2) Speed doesn't vary with the AI difficulty.
The effects you notice on chenghou are the same on any difficulty and even
online, they would be much reduced at a lower speed, and they're not so...
same speed.

[KIGO1987]

I swear to god, these evil lost bitches elite AIs have the ability to learn from your flying techniques. They are really Artificial Intelligence that learn from your mistakes, only way to take them down, is to take them down hard and quick. Before they have a moment to catchup again.

[yeldar2097]

good shout kigo. they also pull bombs out of their arses like magicians pull rabbits out of hats. arcade perfect ain't pretty or painless, except when you do it. ahh...bliss :)

[KIGO1987]

haha, lol. Very true. Wipeout is made in the land of Wizards and witches, im sure hogwarts isnt far from SL HQ. Those Elite racers are controlled by wizards and witches by teleconnected magic or something. Mines, missile, bomb. BOOM! FM! Where did that come from. lol.

[yeldar2097]

maybe they're broomsticks with bodykits? but maybe i just took it too far... i think you may be right. especially when you hear bomb, missile, rockets, and end up stationary for about a year. i tend to get that online with you and the other pacy people but it always seems far less sinister. the AI are out to get me i swear.

[Darkdrium777]

There's no doubts that they cheat. Triakis accelerates faster than my Goteki for ****'s sake :x
I've had the occasional 'surprise weapon out of nowhere' deal too. Incidentally, it's always the best weapon for the occasion. Coming up from behind, it is mines or bomb, passing them in front, rockets, turboing past, it's a missile. ARGH! When it's a quake that's just so annoying because then every single ship will pass next to you, and you start from scratch.
Autopilot saves the day, but not always.

So remember kids, when playing Elite, if you're getting pwnt, just restart the race. Controllers cost 60$ FYI ;)

---
I lol'd at the 'stationary for about a year' comment :lol

[KIGO1987]

So remember kids, when playing Elite, if you're getting pwnt, just restart the race. Controllers cost 60$ FYI ;)

---
I lol'd at the 'stationary for about a year' comment :lol

I wish i took that into account before i attempted the elite trophy. My controller sure did fly higher than that jump on Sebenco Climb with an early boost. Smash! Angry German kid Style, lol.

Stationary for a year, sounds spot on:)

[yeldar2097]

always perfect for the occasion i agree. and they also seem nigh on impervious to fire, the cheeky devils ;). the rubber-banding is also insane; run an almost perfect race and you still end up behind some record-breaking AI ship running on amphetamines :mad:

Controllers cost 60$ FYI ;)
that's precisely why i used a bog-standard sixaxis as opposed to my precious DS3 when going for campaign elite and arcade legend: two controllers down the line; victory!

[stinkleroy]

Does anyone (please god!) have any tips on how to beat the elite AI on Chengou phantom...I have had this one race to do since October, to get my elite trpohy. I did the others with (relative) ease but this track just infuriated me, so much so that I've attempted it only a handful of times since.

It just seems like the AI has no intention of letting me win no matter what I do...they always have a weapon prepared for when I get past them and the one time I did get into first I was beaten to the finish line by a sneaky ship with a turbo boost.....help! :frown:

[leungbok]

If you're playing in racebox mode, you can play without weapons, it counts for the trophy ;)

[Connavar]

stinkleroy: try to finish with a 2.09.00 time or less, if you can't then
practice some more on time trial.

Also be as aggressive as you can, every weapon you shoot will slow down other
ships, only recharage shields when the energy is at its lowest (or when the
weapon is completely useless), otherwise, use the weapons!

And finally: barrel roll like crazy, at least 2 per lap (one on the first ramp
and one on the last ramp).

[stinkleroy]

Thanks guys, I'm doing my 2 BR's per lap, pitching down on the big curve...I can often get into first it's just rare that I can hold it for more than a lap....they just seem to find infinate new ways of blowing me up or ramming me off the track. I think I just need more patience to be honest......hehe :p

[IH8YOU]

Girly Pilot (previous moniker retracted) - the last track on elite ai is always the worst. Whether it's due to you avoiding your weakest track until last, or maybe the PS3 snorted 12 grams of coke before - I dunno.

My last track was Metropia Reverse - and it took me 4 hours (nonstop) to beat it. I laughed, I cried, I went insane - and then finally I beat it. Then I cried some more.

So take a breather, grab some good coffee, and kick some more arse.

Maybe pretend all the AI ships are your little bumpy friend from earlier today. :lol

[stinkleroy]

Hey you, I've warned you about calling me stinky!! I'm going to send someone over to steal all of your coffee for that remark! :D

Anyway back on topic...I'm normally good at Chengou, it just seems that I don't have the patience for the cheating a**hole AI haha :p

[Mateo]

I was really disappointed of the AI-balance on elite. A few of them are ridiculously hard (e.g. Chenghou forward/reverse), while other tracks are too easy (e.g Anulpha, Moa Therma) and you can beat them at nearly every attempt. Who the **** tested if the AI on the courses is too hard, Zico? I had the feeling that some tracks just were so hard to artificially increase the time you need to get through the campaign. And this is what I even hate more than a cheating AI or a rubberband effect! This was the one and only time i thought about stop playing the game...
Why didn't they just turn the AI speed on some courses 2-5% down and on other courses 2-5% up to get a nice balance and still a really hard but also quite fair game. Sure it depends on the individual racer which courses are harder or easier for him/her, but I think nearly everyone would say that the AI on Chenghou is defintively insanely harder than on Anulpha...

@stinkleroy: To beat the AI on Chenghou just race a couple of hours, the time will come when you get 4 or 5 turbos, autopilots and quakes in one race and then you'll beat the bastards on their own ground.:+

[Cerium]

I think I've said this before, so if so... whatever.

Personally, I think anyone who's having trouble with the AI should just ignore it for a while and play online. This way you can get to know the tracks well, while racing people who are at/near your own skill level so you're not constantly taking hits to your morale. Plus, if you ever find yourself in a room against some of the top-tier players, you'll be wishing they were as slow as the elite AI.

Seriously. I remember struggling to beat the elite AI early on. After playing online against some of the best for a couple months, the elite AI is nothing. I can go against it on any track and win first time almost every time (90% of the time, I win 100% of the time... heh).

Besides, this game's replay value comes almost entirely from the multiplayer. Why bother playing single player if it just pisses you off? It doesn't add anything new to multiplayer mode anyway.

[Darkdrium777]

Well, you do get eight very tough competitors who will never leave...
;)

[RedScar]

The AI is how it should be, if it wasn't hard then it wouldn't be worth calling elite. Yes its a bit cheap at times, but at least its not rubber band, if you get a lead and race clean you keep it. This is the only racing game that I can remember that has this in recent memory.

[Mateo]

@Cerium: I agree with you and the AI is defintively ok. Too hard AI doesn't exist overall. Practice makes perfect.:D
What I dislike is the balance!;)

[Darkdrium777]

its not rubber bandNot from what I recall. I pretty much play single race Elite exclusively, and I'm afraid to say that there is rubber banding. Sometimes at a checkpoint I have 5 seconds lead, and the next I have only 2, and the next I can see all the ships in rear view. They catch up, if you're too far.
And I ain't messing up so much either, I know Sebenco Reverse like the back of my hand for example, yet I never get more than 2 seconds lead in the end, but in the middle of the race it might say I have 5 seconds lead at a checkpoint.

Colin Berry might disagree, he said there was no rubber band, but from my experience, there is. It's certainly not like in Pulse, where if I get a 5 seconds lead I keep it until the end of the race. I have never finished more then 2 seconds ahead of the Elite AI, after a clean race.

Also, sometimes say on Chengou I can win with 2:08 with a truly terrible race, and still be 1 sec ahead of the AI. Other times, I get to 2:04 and lose to an AI who did 2:02 (Which is world record level, in top 20 at least), and that was a pretty damn fine race.
Either it's a very big coincidence, or one of the programmers didn't tell something to Colin.

[Connavar]

Also, sometimes say on Chengou I can win with 2:08 with a truly terrible race, and still be 1 sec ahead of the AI. Other times, I get to 2:04 and lose to an AI who did 2:02 (Which is world record level, in top 20 at least), and that was a pretty damn fine race.

So just like against real players? This looks like a nice AI to me!
Btw, never won with more than 2 seconds ahead against the AI?
I remember not so long ago I had almost 10 seconds!

And Cerium: 100% agreed, I almost always win against Elite AI,
and that's with starting last on the grid each time!
If anything, they should add an Elite+ difficulty.

[Mateo]

This looks like a nice AI to me!

I'm pretty (but not 100%) sure that it's that way:
If you race slow, the AI races a little slower and if you're fast, they're also faster. When I was really fast and made no mistakes, but just couldn't overtake the 3rd or 4th or so (because I was shot with missiles and rockets now and then) the first made near record times (because I was quite fast I assume). But when I had a bad race and rammed 5 times per lap the sides of the track and I got in maybe 6th or so, the first one had a miserable time.

EDIT: just turned the PS3 on and checked it: I choosed Piranha (to make sure that I will make a lousy race, I can't fly that thing) on Metropia forward (the track which is my worst, also to make sure I'll make a lousy race). I did the first lap and gave the AI +10 seconds when I passed the start/finish line for the first time. Then I raced normally, after one and a half laps I reduced it to +5.5 seconds to the AI. 2 Laps after I started catching them up (so I passed the start/finish line for the third time) it just were +4 seconds up to the AI and I started seeing the other guys. But from that moment on I couldn't catch up any more (the plan to race lousy with piranha on metropia was a full success:g) and it stayed +4 seconds up to the AI until the end. I raced constantly Laps 2-5.

If someone had other experiences, then correct me please.:)

[Darkdrium777]

I remember not so long ago I had almost 10 secondsThis can't have been done on Elite level. Novice, yes, not Elite.
Or for some weird and ****ed up reason, the AI on my console is always at 2 seconds max behind me at the finish line, and not on yours.
I would have to see it to believe it, because according to my experiences, this is simply impossible.
Without exaggerating, my best split time was I think 4 seconds from the second ship on Elite Difficulty, I've never been over 5 seconds in splits. And I think that was only mid-race too...
I'm not the best WipEout HD player for sure, but I hold my own against the Elite AI, it's very rare that I lose against them (Lose aka getting less than first place), it probably happens only once in every 20 or 30 races. I must have played hundreds of races against them, and I from what I remember, I simply never got further away than two tiny and insignificant seconds. No matter what my final time was, either an absolutely horrible time in the top 1000 or a world record level time in the top 10. The AI was always two seconds behind me at the end. Always.

So yeah, show me your ten seconds, I would like to see that. Ten seconds between your final time and the first AI ELITE ship to be precise.

Because even if I get like one turbo per lap, it's always going to end up with the two seconds split at the end.

[stinkleroy]

@ Cerium...I think you misunderstand me. I'm not new to this game, in fact I was probably one of the ifrst to have it as I took the afternoon off work in anticipation...feverishly checking the psn store every minute (a little sad I know)...and since the day I got it all I want to do is play online (a 12 year dream for me) ...I of course finished the campaign for unlocks but since then have spent ALL of my time on this game online.

At heart I'm a rapier pilot as I just enjoy it more but am quite competent at phantom..not great through lack of practice but am not a novice....as I said I beat the Elite AI with relative ease (1 or 2 tries) for all other tracks but this one back in October...they just seem to have infinate weapons to blow me away with on this track and I think it's my lack of patience that stops me from getting anywhere with it.....I just wanted to complete the campaign for my own sanity..but in reality just don't find it as much fun as online. So the problem is me!

[fantaboy00]

.....

[Connavar]

This can't have been done on Elite level. Novice, yes, not Elite.
Or for some weird and ****ed up reason, the AI on my console is always at 2 seconds max behind me at the finish line, and not on yours.
I would have to see it to believe it, because according to my experiences, this is simply impossible.
Without exaggerating, my best split time was I think 4 seconds from the second ship on Elite Difficulty, I've never been over 5 seconds in splits. And I think that was only mid-race too...
I'm not the best WipEout HD player for sure, but I hold my own against the Elite AI, it's very rare that I lose against them (Lose aka getting less than first place), it probably happens only once in every 20 or 30 races. I must have played hundreds of races against them, and I from what I remember, I simply never got further away than two tiny and insignificant seconds. No matter what my final time was, either an absolutely horrible time in the top 1000 or a world record level time in the top 10. The AI was always two seconds behind me at the end. Always.

So yeah, show me your ten seconds, I would like to see that. Ten seconds between your final time and the first AI ELITE ship to be precise.

Because even if I get like one turbo per lap, it's always going to end up with the two seconds split at the end.
Maybe I forgot to mention that I'm super aggressive against the AI, and usually
kill 1-2 ships myself, often plasma the leader, I guess if you use another
style, with less carnage, then yeah the gap will be shorter.
Maybe it wasn't 10 seconds but it was definitely above 6, and probably above 8,
I remember Ubermall Reverse for instance. I'll try to find a way to record a
race on video then, to prove it.

[yeldar2097]

has anyone else found that the elite AI on reverse tracks are far inferior to the normal tracks?
when i was going for arcade perfect i'd never raced any of the reverse tracks but i managed to win most of them within 5-6 tries.
it may seem like a lot but considering i was learning the courses in the process i was surprised that i could do it that quickly.
anyone else found this?

[silverfoxy]

Yes Yeldar, exactly that. Whenver I raced online on the reverse tracks I would be all over the show (still am to be fair) but going for Arcade perfect it was quite easy. The only one that gave me any bother was reverse Chenghou. The last one to get was forward Chenghou. Although I'm reasonably competent online I struggle against the AI. BRs wherever possible doesn't seem to help either, but for some reason the only way I could do it was in a Hariamau. Think it was a pretty decent time (for me anyway), possibly top 50.

[Darkdrium777]

As I said, no matter what I do here it's always two seconds split at the end. No matter how many kills, how many weapons fired, how many turbos, how many barrel rolls, no matter what I do, it's two seconds. On rare occasions it will be more than that, but a lot of times it's only two seconds (Or around that), and my final time can vary greatly even if I still win.

Only on tracks with shortcuts can I hope to get further away than those two seconds, but that's only if I get turbos to do the shortcuts (Ubermall Reverse is one of those tracks), and even then they somehow catch up in the end, maybe not until two seconds, but under five generally.

My point is that you can't consistently beat them with a ten seconds lead. I believe you can get a ten seconds lead, but that's just an extraordinary case, where you're lucky you get many turbos/etc. I can't possibly imagine beating the Elite AI with a ten seconds lead every time. This can't happen on my game. Some programming difference maybe, or my system is acting up, don't know, but it just never happened frequently enough so that I remember it. Maybe using Goteki with lower speed makes a difference, but then how come am I able to pass them with relative ease, but then I just can't lose them, if I'm always going relatively at the same speed? Once I pass them they seem "stuck" behind me at two seconds, no matter what speed I'm going at.

It's weird to explain, I guess one way of knowing what I mean would be to watch my videos... Sol2 for example, is a pretty damn good ride (4th globally at the time, don't know about now), and look at the final split. 2.2 seconds. And I've had much worse races before, I still won, with a 2 seconds lead. What can I tell ya, for me it's just not possible. :/ I would love to believe you entirely at 100% and etc, but from my experiences the Elite AI are cheating, cheap and rubber-banding bastards. :(

[IH8YOU]

Back when I was making my attempt with Elite AI - there were races where I got a global top 10 time - and STILL finished last. Literally. You want to talk about a swift kick to the johnson...

[Connavar]

Darkdrium: when did I say I could do that EVERY time??? Please read my post, I
said it happened recently (and I also said "almost 10 seconds", I think it was
~8 seconds on Ubermall Rev), please don't try to make me say something I didn't
say.

I obviously used the best example I remembered to counter your argument that it
was ALWAYS a close race, you might have to be super lucky, but yeah it's
possible to have a large lead. I'm sure I had at least a turbo every lap, and
maybe killed the leader even, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened.

Under normal conditions, yeah, the race is won with 1-2 seconds ahead, but it's
easier than it seems because it's almost always a win... I think they just
follow you very well once you're in the lead.

[Darkdrium777]

please don't try to make me say something I didn't
say.Sorry if it comes across this way, I didn't want it to.
I guess the thing I'm trying to say is that they don't need a harder AI. They're already pretty much hacking the whole race. Higher difficulty would be just game breaking.