How much better would this game look at 333 cpu?

[master bruce]

I believe someone said that they were testing using 333 but scrapped it and stuck with 222 speed because of multiplayer. My question is in what ways would the graphics be improved if full cpu usage were utilized?

[q_dmc12]

fluidity

[master bruce]

yeah I figured that framerates may be increased, although I think the framerates are good as it is (I haven't noticed a slowdown yet)

I was wondering if with the extra cpu, the developers would've included even more eye candy

[Egg]

Not unless the PSP magically grew a load more memory ...

[Lance]

Internal expansion cards?

hmmm.......... :g

[master bruce]

Not unless the PSP magically grew a load more memory ...

well, I think the psp slim has double the memory of the phat psp. but not sure if developers can utilize that, since it may deprive phat owners.

[Lance]

Phat owners must have been on a diet.

[Frances_Penfold]

My only personal graphical complaint with Pure/Pulse is with framerate-- I think the games otherwise look fantastic.

And honestly, in time trial and zone modes, the framerate is really good too ;)

[bastienrehm]

I'll have to try what it looks like on default cpu speed then, I started playing the game at 333 so I can't really tell you the difference. All I can say is that it's even more fluid than Pure running at 333 cpu which is already a marvelous improvement and for nothing in the world would I play it on default speed ever again.

Sorry for the late reply, I'm new to the forum. I hope it's ok to resurrect 2 weeks old threads.

To give you an idea there is no difference in framerate between zone and regular tracks with contenders at 333.

[JABBERJAW]

It's much smoother, but should really not be taken online or records should not be recorded with, since the framerate helps you get better times(tested with nephew). Tracks like outpost is where it is really much smoother in single race hard level(read 10 fps vs probably 30 fps). Recording times on the wipeout site with it on is cheating. And even though I like playing with it against Isaac(my nephew), I do not use it otherwise unless everyone else would be using it(private room or something). I'm just curious as to how many people are using it for wipeout-game.com times?

[Rapier Racer]

Probably more than are willing to admit it.

[phl0w]

Well, I don't think SL is so naive to think that CFW is neglectable, unless they don't take their own site (wipeout-game.com) serious. I'd even assume that of those who use their PSPs regularly, the majority is on CFW. Sure, the casual gamer is not, but he won't ever get near a top time anyways- with or without framerate advantages, we're speaking of about a tenth of a second here.


but should really not be taken onlineThe game is locked at 266 online IIRC, because wi-fi apparently needs the rest.

I think, that if the game were in fact behaving much differently, then they would've locked it in the first place (like Burnout for instance). Bottom line: The game in fact plays as it was meant to only at 333, I'm sure about that (see non-working BR due to the sub-par framerate in races, "save ghost" framerate bug, ...). It runs smoothly and controls are harder, yet more precise.

masterbruce:
and stuck with 222 speed because of multiplayer
PSPs have been running at 266 since one of the first firmware updates. Your PSP would only run at 222 if you never updated it ;)

[omega329]

Wait, hold on a second! 266Mhz? Huh? Since when did PSPs run at 266? I thought the PSP ran at 222Mhz since 1.50 or somthing like that (due to battery life) and the 333Mhz custom firmware thing giving an advantage (although the psp was meant to run at this speed and does on OFW in some cases e.g. newer firmware with new games ) but what the hell's this 266 all about? I feel like a noob again. :frown:

[Lion]

as far as I know the default is still 222, but games have had the ability for while to call 266 (fw 3.0 iirc), and as of firmware 3.50 they have also had the abilty to call 333MHz

[bastienrehm]

Never ever thought about it as cheating... All I thought about was more mhz=more frames=more eye comfort, not sure it affects times as much as pressing up the whole time of the race for example.

[phl0w]

I don't think of it as cheating either. More framerate = more control. Every online PC-gamer profits from processing power and config files (like the mentioned Quake). It's a major and healthy part of gaming to find a setup you're most comfortable and good with. For what it's worth: A neGcon has the same effect, and isn't considered a cheat either ;)

[lunar]

Except that a Negcon is an officially supported peripheral - even so far as having the game manuals advising you on how to set it up. On the other hand, you don`t see much mention of how to overclock your PSP in the Pure or Pulse manuals.

A better analogy than the Negcon one would be plugging a Gameshark into your PS1, and getting a Feisar round Talon`s Reach in 8 seconds and claiming a new world record. If we do that the competition is meaningless. Someone will be first, but who knows how they will have got there? It`s the same with Pure and Pulse, unless we`re all playing the game the same way, the official way, it`s just a battle to get your name on top of the rankings, not a meaningful competition that`s just about racing. In the same way the Olympic 100 metres would be meaningless if drugs and steroids were legalised and it became just a battle to find the best doctors and potions. Maybe it is already, but if you admit it you might as well fold up the Olympic flag and go home.

The majority of the serious Pulse players actually do compete with official firmware, there is an understanding, a (pretentious words coming up) "code of honour" or "gentlemen`s agreement" amongst Wipeoutzone players that we should compete on a level playing field. If someone wants to play the game with us here on this site, and takes an advantage knowingly, then it is a kind of cheating. In my opinion that`s how it works. Al knows he could get an advantage, but he doesn`t take it, because I think he understands this.

This "gentleman`s agreement" might not be meaningful for wipeout-game.com, where the big wide world is involved, but I`d still prefer to be playing the game the same way and on the level with Asa, Mad-Ice, Stin and many others, where I know at least with these great players the competition is equal and it means something.

[bastienrehm]

I'll probably never be in the top 20 players anyway, so I'll take a little higher framerate for now.

Although I still fail to see why Pulse wasn't made to force 333 now that better batteries are available... beats me.

[Asayyeah]

clap: Stephen & Al

Nothing more to add and to prevent a new 'war of the FW' ( wotfw :banzai) i am gonna close this thread , if people wants to read the previous closed topic dealing with this subject , please use the search function.

[Colin Berry]

When a game reaches the end of development it goes through a QA cycle, as part of the QA cycle the game has to adhere to certain standards and regulations.

One of Sonys current regulations is if a game allows 333 it has to be tested at 333 and at the standard cpu speed - currently it cant be locked only to 333 if it supports multiplayer as sony does not allow the developers to activate the 333 with the wifi enabled and active - are there unofficial hacks that circumnavigate this.... we all know the answer, however no psp developer is allowed to use hacked firmware in game development you use the firmware supplied by sony and the current sony firmware does not allow 333 with wifi on and active.

So, the game has to run at standard speed for multiplayer, and as such must run at standard speed in single player. The option is there to allow 333 for single player as well, but not instead - the issue with had with Pulse was we had the 333mhz almost ready to go into the game, indeed for a short time in development it was active BUT we did not have long enough to test the game at this cpu speed as well as the standard (a test cycle can be months). For the 333mhz to be active in the main game, the game would have been delayed further, this was not an option.

Basically, we were not allowed 333 for multiplayer (its still not supported development wise sonys official firmware disables 333 when the wifi is active) we were allowed it for single player as an option - but it was too late into development to allow full testing and as such could not be included.

Could the game have been put back further to compensate... well it had already been put back to implement the psn sign in, rather than a bespoke one, and delaying costs, and ultimately you have to draw a line in the sand and hit a date, or projects would go on indefinitely. The 333 option is relatively new as a whole.
The mandate was release in europe pre-xmas, and that could not shift.

[Asayyeah]

Thx for clearing this up, Colin :+

I let open the thread if people are ok for not derailling the subject into a war of FW.
Let's see how things go on

[bastienrehm]

Very nice explanation indeed, thanks for taking the time to write it. :+

[JABBERJAW]

Just so you know. CFW at 333 does work online. I tested with Isaac(my nephew) and it did run smoother(we tested all configs 333vsdefault, ect). Very noticeable on outpost. this is not only tenths of a second, but probably about 4 seconds on a track like that due to the smoothness. Other tracks like Metropia, or amphesium are probably more like 1-2 seconds as long as you are used to the choppy sections at default. Even in TT it is an advantage on tracks like outpost. Everyone who plays each other, should at least let the other know what they are playing on, so for example when somehow arnaud beats me in a race, I know that he is playing 333 :)

Summary:

1)To say there is no advantage is not correct, and the advantage online is somewhere between 1 and 4 seconds depending on the track(roughly).

2) To enter 333 times online is cheating, unless everyone did it. Don't get me wrong, I love playing at 333, and it is certainly more enjoyable, but will not take advantage of it for records on the tables or an advantage online.

[Lion]

...One of Sonys current regulations is if a game allows 333 it has to be tested at 333 and at the standard cpu speed...

...well it had already been put back to implement the psn sign in, rather than a bespoke one...I have no problems with the limitations on use of 333, but what is standard speed now? still 222? or now 266?

Thankyou for making pulse use PSN login, that's a very cool feature in my opinion :)

[stin]

Lunar and Al, Excellent posts.
It`s boils down to common sense.

Thank you Colin for clearing it up.

stevie:)

[phl0w]

I'd like to know too. As of now I play on "default" which certainly runs choppier than Pulse on OFW. Still, I managed to clock some good times despite my playing "handicapped", it's motivating ;)

Thanks for the heads-up. Although there's no information on how differently the engine behaves under 333. Fine, there were no tests, but simple maths could solve that too, when one, i.e. the devs, knows the game engine in and out.
If I entered a record achieved under 333 you'd notice it, because I have another profile for playing @333, it's called flo333^^. So, if I may upload that profile by mistake let me know. Although my times on that profile suck, because investing time in records that are worth nothing is a waste of time, so I hardly play with that profile.

Anyway, what I don't understand though is, why the PSN login feature had priority, when on wipeout-game.com "where the big world is involved" there's no possibility to know what times are "valid" and which are not... When you know there's never going to be an even playing field (and the number of CFW users is growing steadily, ironically enough partly because of Pulse's glory under the PSP's full processing power), why have official online rankings? I only know of this forum here that considers added clockspeed something evil. In every other forum where Pulse gets discussed, the general consensus is that NOT playing the game at 333mhz is stupidity ;) Going by that, no ranked time or online game that involves anybody but WOZ members can be trusted. Don't get me wrong, I WANT an even playing field and I want to compete fair and square too! The whole thing just doesn't make sense from the developer's point of view. Sony doesn't care about CFW users in the first place, Colin Berry and SL on the other hand apparently have strict limitations on how their game should be like and when its sales have to kick in. At the same time the game gets dumbed down with the argument that "hardcore" gamers will find their challenge competing online, although everybody (inlcuding SL) knows that public online competition is never going to be fair. Something's wrong in the whole picture and the one that suffers is Pulse, and Wipeout in the long run.

[Rapier Racer]

Those official tables will also be used for HD (I imagine). As far as I know the PS3 doesn't have 'custom firmware' as such and there aren't any of those cheat disks (xploder/action replay etc) so with any luck all should be good.

[Colin Berry]

The tables are monitored but there is no concrete way of detecting the firmware version from the uploaded save file. As the save file does not store the FW ver, and even if it did, people could hack round it. Hence hacked times has gone up previous, but we are endevouring to montior and remove these things, it is however all relatively new system wise and there are many wheels and cogs to move to make thinsg happen. A website for a game, and we provide support after release. .. . . . that is a foreign to sony as the thought of mcdonalds serving health food 5years ago, but we (as a company) are learning and adapting.

AFAIK Had we not used PSN login and gone with a bespoke system, all support for it and servers would have been shut down by now or within months of release. Basically had we pushed out Pulse in september without PSN login, the ability to play online wouldnt exist come january.
Sony was not going to set up the ability for all games to support PSN, and then support a separate system to PSN at the same time. When it could kill two birds with one stone.


Unfortunately there is not a lot we an do to counter hackers or people using CFW except attempt to monitor the tables and remove times we deem impossible /achieved via cheats

You'll find it with many games unfortunately, I play warcraft a fair bit, I've seen some people using cheats and hacks it is (one of) the most popular games in the world right now, people will cheat because some people are that way inclined and you cant prevent it all.
Governments can bring in motoring laws, but that cant stop people breaking the law, they can just try and catch and prevent, it might nto be the best analogy but I am typing quick and its Friday afternoon.

I hate the fact people hack the game I (and many others) have slaved two years over and then deliberately ruin it for others, I think the forum swear filter would melt if I told you exactly what I would do to such people given the chance, you have no idea just how violent I would get with some of these people who think its cool, funny and fun to ruin other peoples fun and destory something we crafted, it makes me angry jsut typing and thinking about it tbh.... but on the positive side, we learn lessons, and improve, in all aspects from prevention to counter measures. Believe me we share the frustration knowing there are people out there hacking the game playing online and ruining the experience for others, but no matter what you do, no matter what you try you cant stop a **** from being a **** :(

[JABBERJAW]

Unfortunately, playing at default, it is possible to achieve the times that 333 can achieve, it just takes more time to get in a good run due to slower framerate. I say it is faster on average, meaning if you picked up the game, played outpost one time on default, wrote your time down, then played on 333 and wrote it down, it would probably be about 4 seconds faster just due to the smoothness, BUT with practice and alot of runs, you can get the same time, it might just take you 4 times as long to get it.

Personally, I love 333, its quite obvious when playing pulse, that is how it should run, absolutely amazing. I recommend that two psps should be used at least for woz members regarding the record times(one fast for your own, and one for record tables). If you are playing online, you should tell the person if you are playing at the fast speed, or just play with other people who play at that speed, since you can set up private rooms. It would be nice to know who plays on what, at least on wipeoutzone.

[Vincent_VII]

^^totally agree

And labeling online rooms for different speeds is a great idea.

[bastienrehm]

I did run test on default and 333 up to rapier class and honestly there's no significant time difference between the runs, phantom might be a different story though.

My own personal results never showed a difference over 0.5 seconds, so I don't really see how a 4 seconds difference is even possible.

I haven't tried phantom like I said but it if there's one class in which it should help, at least a bit, it's on phantom.

Don't take my results as a general rule, I encourage you to test yourself. To me it seems like at either clock speed you have to get used to the animation before your times can truly shine, and for me, up to rapier, there's no difference.

[JABBERJAW]

Play single race, hard, outpost white on default, phantom, then play at 333 same conditions. There is a severe difference. The frame rate difference on multiplayer is significant for some tracks, especially when the weapons go off and there are more than two players racing

[phl0w]

on default
That's the problem. My experience showed that Pulse does not run equally good on CFW set to default as Pulse on OFW. It's much choppier and suffers from even worse framerates. So as long as there's no clarity about which clockspeed runs the game under CFW like on OFW, one could always argue about the invalidity of times achieved with a modified PSP.
BTW, good idea about that private rooms online thing. WOZ members could arrange the terms of races/ tourneys in IRC.

[Asayyeah]

Your tests joined mine Al
There's an obvious difference on few tracks and especially racing online.
I have 2 psps, 2 separate profiles and raced few times with 1 psp in default mode and 333 online , btw i was 'FCK-cheaters', default is the speed who is the closest to the OFW but again that is not the same feeling racing, 333 is way faster in a sense that you aren't affected by slowdowns ( or largely less )

Like Al suggested it should be cool to know who is running with what and at what speed.
If people are ok into their User CP from the site, edit their profile and add OFW, CFW default or CFW 333.
Edit : i am not forcing anyone, do what you want to do pilots , this is only a suggestion i will follow myself.

[JABBERJAW]

so running at default is a little slower on cfw and puts you at a disadvantage. How much slower does it run than ofw?

[bastienrehm]

Someone mentioned something about not being sure Pulse ran at 222 or 266, I guess this is a partial answer.

CFW doesn't mean much btw as there are many cfws out there with different effects. (In fact some cfws allow you to run the game at 22 mhz or even slower... I haven't tried but that's gotta suck)

So what I'm guessing from this is that some custom cfws "believe" the default is 222 and force 222 even if the game as a default of 266. So here "default" doesn't mean "behave like ofw" but rather "run at old ofw fixed game frequency regardless of game specs".

My two cents.

I agree with Asayyeah, I'll enter that info in my profile.

[Vincent_VII]

Asayyeah, ahhhhhhhh that was you (FCK-Cheaters). Those were some good races. :eek

bastienrehm, right. I believe that most CFW "default" settings force the PSP to 222mhz, regardless. I have tried Pulse out on a couple of CFW PSPs and it feels "stock" when forcing the settings to 266mhz. Default runs horribly clunky.

[JABBERJAW]

that would make sense. Was there ever an official reply as to what the game really runs at 222 or 266?

[Vincent_VII]

No. Colin never answered that. But with my findings, I would assume 266.

[Frances_Penfold]

Those of you that have done tests-- how much of an effect does the 333 have on Time Trials and Speed Laps?

I don't really care about effects on multiplayer. But I do worry that, in the end, we will all have to use CFW at 333 to participate competitively in time trialing-- because the broader Wipeout community will be split about its use.

The option mentioned above-- about including the clock speed in the username-- is an interesting alternative, as it allows people to do what they want but also be transparent about it. It would be pretty messy however if ALL time trial competitors maintained two seperate accounts, one run at default at 266 and a second at 333.

I dislike the concept of CFW as, for many users, it is a tool for piracy. I also dislike the tomfoolery involved with implementing it, and so far have only used official Sony firmware on my PSPs.

But I wonder about the inevitability factor here-- that in the end, in 6 months or a year, to play Wipeout Pulse competitively, if we will be forced to run at 333 :|

[JABBERJAW]

Not two accounts, just one to submit times, the one running at the correct speed. the other would be for personal use, until maybe at some point in the future sony opens up this option.

[Intera]

If it's anything like GTA it would be a lot smoother.

I have seen a PSP playing GTA:LCS on 333Mhz, and it went from having quite frequent hitches at 222Mhz to being almost completely smooth.

Not sure if wipeout would be affected in the same way though.

[Frances_Penfold]

Not two accounts, just one to submit times, the one running at the correct speed. the other would be for personal use, until maybe at some point in the future sony opens up this option.

Right-- for those running CFW right now, this is clearly the correct thing to do.

My point is that, in the long run, there may be so many people that have switched to running the game at 333, that everybody will need to do so in order to be competitive with time trial events. It seems almost inevitable, which is unfortunate because I don't really want to have to mess around with CFW.


... until maybe at some point in the future sony opens up this option.

That's never going to happen IMHO. As Colin says, Sony is already putting unprecedented efforts into maintaining the online components of the game. A decision to migrate to 333 seems like a decision that the fanbase-- the online community as a whole has-- to make ;)

[Task]

I do worry that, in the end, we will all have to use CFW at 333 to participate competitively in time trialingOh, don't worry about that eventuality.
To participate competitively requires only one thing: dedication.
The kind of passion required for the level of dedication you need to be competitive tends to lead people to here, where fairness is more important than results. Anyone who's taking any other path to competitive times will likely lose interest and disappear, and I'd bet heavily there isn't a time they can post that someone here can't honestly beat. 8 )


I dislike the concept of CFW as, for many users, it is a tool for piracy. I also dislike the tomfoolery involved with implementing it, and so far have only used official Sony firmware on my PSPs.Good reasons to avoid it entirely. I'm pure OFW myself, and I so far prefer the stability/reliability of it over any benefits CFW might possibly give me. I can count on my OFW to do certain things, there's no real guarantee with CFW. OFW FTW! 8 D


But I wonder about the inevitability factor here-- that in the end, in 6 months or a year, to play Wipeout Pulse competitively, if we will be forced to run at 333 :|Nah, it's much more likely that in 6 months to a year the online community will consist almost entirely of dedicated pilots, everyone else having moved on to the latest flashy game to hit the scene. So to speak.

Experience tells me that it ain't an issue to worry about. Time will tell, of course, but that's the way I'd place my bet every day of the week.

[bastienrehm]

My tests were run in time trial, there is a small difference in fluidity but like I said earlier: up to rapier I didn't find any significant time difference. Haven't tested phantom myself.

[Medusa]

"...CFW. OFW FTW! 8 D" Wow, when you read that without the context, it looks like some really creative swearing.:lol

I think it's been established that smoother framerate is a definite advantage in multiplayer. Which makes it cheating to use 333 online against others who do not know and consent to racing you on 333.

I have to say I'd be a lot happier if it were impossible for others to race me online with their precious CFW. I've enough trouble keeping up without the opposition having lovely smooth gameplay when I can hardly see what the heck is going on. But oh well. I suppose that's what happens when people love their PSPs enough to risk destroying them by playing with the firmware.

[phl0w]

Only those who have no idea what they're doing risk bricking their system. It's like updating BIOS, a Router, a DVD-Writer on your PC- same (low) risk.
I'm pretty sure this can be seen as "discussing CFW", Medusa, so let's stop right here right now.

[bastienrehm]

Every psp can be unbricked nowadays, all you're risking is your personal data if you don't save it on a hard drive or something.

[Lance]

.
Yes. Let's put the CFW discussion in the dustbin
.

[Asayyeah]

Last thing maybe Lance before closing that thread if you fancy .
I'd like to apologize about what i stated previously related to CFW ruining online experience of OFW people.
I thought previously that they cause the slowdowns while playing against OFW but i was wrong.
I played yesterday online from 8 to 11 PM we were racing stevie RR and me ( all 3 in OFW) agaisnt Brica & Guillaume ( 2 frenchies with CFW one at 333 and one at default but we didn't knew this fact when we started racing them ) it was running smooth as silk and i said WOW what a pleasure to play against you all with OFW but the 2 frenchies said No we aren't on OFW !
I asked RR & Stevie and no lag for them so CFW either at 333 or default, not affect the playability of OFW ( or at a non noticeable quantity)
After those 2 perfect lag free no slowdowns tours we were joined by E-Kami.
Immediately the tour gets completely crappy due to lag : Stevie RR and me felt the big difference : less noticeable for them said Brica & Guillaume.
E-Kami even located in France got a shitty internet connexion and it was him who was turning the game so badly. ( no offense mate but true).
Then came Flashbackjack ( Ekami went away), surprinsingly no big slowdowns , just slightly less 'smooth as silk' it was when we started the evening at 5 but way far better than previous tour with Ekami. Flashback has got certainly a good internet connexion but due to the distance he is from Europe, his ping to the server tends to show his ship not at the exact location on the track it should be ; so when you think, ok he is getting this weapon pad ill get the 2nd which is next to it but wrong he took the one i wanted :O. Same happened when you try to shoot him with rockets , or missile which is unlocking too easily from the target, mines throw but showing up at the last sec in front of yer eyes.

To resume : I prefer at the top playing with pilots from Europe with good connexion and OFW : the fairest condition to play. then playing with Euro guys on CFW default or not ( always with a good connexion) then racing people out of Europe but not too far ( ping issues) like North America.
I really don't like playing with bad connection guys ( no offense to you it's just so frustrating ) and with people beyond 10000 kms from my house.