qualify mode

[micky1984]

what would u guys think to having the option of qualifying laps in wipeout. i think it wud be interesting to have the option. also longer races. The campain cud have a little more depth if u had the option to qualify on the starting grid.

[Renegäde]

Yeah I wouldnt mind that, perhaps having a speed lap before a tournament event to qualify instead of a separate event.

[P52Smith]

But what would happen if you didn't qualify???

[bloseth]

Micky/Rene: We're talking about qualifying for the pole position, right?

[wich]

Yeah, I think qualifying for position would be a good option to have. Though I think this would only work if the AI were better racers. Racing wise I blow past all the AI, it's with the weapons they drag me down, especially with a light craft like the EG-X. As soon as I get past them though I'm home safe, qualifying and then (presumably) starting from 1st position would mean a single race would just be another time trial...

What would be cool I guess is if the AI racers had some sort of quantified attention span, (which would be greater for higher difficulty classes,) which they can divide over their weapons use and their racing. They should divide their attention dynamically based on the performance of the player, if the player is a fast racer the AI should spend more effort in trying to keep up and spend a bit less attention to their weapons, if the player is more of a fighter and a little less of a racer the AI should fight back and spend more attention on their weapon use and a bit less on being the faster racers.

I think this would work perfectly with qualifying for position. When you then qualify first, you won't just run off with the battlefield going on way behind you, instead the AI will do their best to catch up with you and provide for a good racing experience.

[Rapier Racer]

A qualifying lap option would be good for online play, in a tournament of say 8 races the random positioning is unfair. Qualify for the first race then after that the starting positions could be based on the finishing order of the last race, or the order of the points table.

[wich]

That would be unfair as well, if you first get a few tracks you suck at and then get a track you are really good at you still get put at the back of the grid. Random is most definately fair, everyone has the same chances to get first or last place. Having a qualifying lap for each race in the tournament would be another fair option, but using tournament standings or the results of the last race would definately not be fair.

[micky1984]

i agree the AI would hav to be improved to accomodate qualifying laps for single player. as for online, well seeing that there is such a range of talented or talentless pilots;) out there it wud seem unfair givng the best pilots pole position (which wud happen due to qualifying laps) for them only to zoom of at the beginninge never to be seen again by the lesser skilled pilots. but having said that it still would be nice to hav as an option. specially in races when everyone is equally matched.

[Rapier Racer]

Strongly disagree with your random is fair argument. I don't see how winning a pole position through good play is unfair, if your not happy about being at the back you COULD do something about it and get better at the track in question. You can do jack **** about random positioning, its real fair to be placed at the back for 3 of 4 races, yes.

Another way should be considered other than randomness.

[Task]

I've always believed that the purpose of TT should be to give you a "qualifying" time, and then you should be placed on the grid based on your best race time for that track/class, and all the AI racers should have their own times so that their qualifying position is computed as well. It would carry well to an online venue, best person on the track starts in the lead, turtles are in the back.

But for some reason it's become hallowed tradition in WO that you start at the back and fight your way through the pack. Since the AI has never been at a high enough level to give you a challenge if you don't have to fight your way through them, it makes sense that they've done it the way they have, but I would hope that future WO would continue to improve the AI to the point where if you don't have the best qualifying time your chances of finishing 1st are pretty small.

The difficulty level setting is a great step forward in this direction.

[Frances_Penfold]

Changing the direction of the discussion slightly here-- but what do y'all think would ideally govern the assignment of starting positions in ONLINE play?

Time trial time for the track in question?

Online rank (according to Wipeout-game.com)?

Random assignment each race?

Random assignment (first race) then by finishing position in prior races?

[NeXaR_QroN]

I'll add one more:

Random assignment (first race) then by current tournament ranking

[micky1984]

Id have to say a speed lap would be most ideal for each race. obviously it wouldnt be seven laps maybe cut down to three or four laps, so as not to slow down the online experiance to much. maybe even one lap wud be enougth. it cud even be in a format of a race, but every one is a ghost ship so u can visicaly see how every1 is doin. that wud work nicely for 1 lap i think

[Frances_Penfold]

The game could also simply look up the speed lap records on everybody's PSP, and then assign positions accordingly...

[wich]

I still say using tournament standings or the previous race results is unfair, again, if you've just had a track which you suck at, you will be punsihed for that not just with a bad result, but with a bad starting position for the next race as well. If you want to do qualifying or grid positioning non randomly you should do it based on the track itself, not on other tracks or tournament standings or such.

I don't think having a ghost for every player would be a good option, you wouldn't be able to see a thing with 7 ghosts messing up your view, I even disable the normal ghost. Just having a tracking dot on a line representing the circuit (can just be a straight line at the bottom or top) would be much better I thing, not just for qualifying, but for racing in general, it'd rock if you could see the distribution of the other racers in a glance.

Looking up the speed lap records on everybody's PSP would also give way to cheating, I could just give my PSP to someone else much better than me to run a few blisteringly fast laps and I'll start at the front of the pack each time.

[zargz]

imo the best, most fair/balanced/realistic(WTCC, superbikes) way would be:

Random assignment (first race) then by reverse current tournament ranking. 8)

[Frances_Penfold]

Yeah, that's a good point, Zargz. I was wondering about that too. We are assuming that we WANT to further favor the current leader which will only further cement his/her dominance in the tournament. I wouldn't object to a reverse ordering for race starts.

[Medusa]

I agree with zargz, it's the fairest way IMNSHO. Pulse already gives the leader a huge advantage, don't put them at the start of the grid each time as well. If they're really the leader they'll end up in front anyways and have a more interesting time getting there.

[lunar]

Zargz` system is a fine one until you`re winning the tour on the last race ;) But yes I think it`s a great idea overall. :)

The only other way I can think of, that doesn`t have big drawbacks, is random assignments for SR, and then in tours a fair division of advantageous and disadvantageous grid positions. For example, in a four race tour with four competitors the game should ensure everyone gets one pole, one 2nd, one third and so forth. It`s a bit more complicated with different numbers of racers and races, but it could be made so close to fair for everyone, over the whole tour, that you wouldn`t notice the difference.

Not sure qualifying would be much use outside of a "sim mode" in single player. In online play it would delay even further the important part of just getting on with the racing, and there can be enough messing about in online play already.

[Lance]

I like zargz's idea; it gives a more balanced competition.

[RJ O'Connell]

Qualifying laps in a futuristic racing game re-kindle memories of Aero Gauge for the Nintendo 64 which was the first future racer (that I know of) that had single-car qualifiers. And I'm reminded of how impossibly difficult that game is on any level but Novice.

Anyway, back to qualifying for Wipeout - personally, this should be a topic for the Wipeout Future board, but as for my take - it'd add a bit of realism, but the faster pilots - it won't matter for them, since they'd likely get pole position each race unless they'd lost consciousness during their hot lap. Starting last isn't so bad really. It's just harder to jump to the front in this game because the AI ships launch quicker, that's all.

[Lion]

zargz' idea is probably the best and simplest put forward. but standard/reverse grid should be an option chosen by the host.

[Lance]

..... this should be a topic for the Wipeout Future board,

True, I'll see if I can move it. My brain is a bit fuzzy with a cold at the moment, but it should work anyway. :D

[RJ O'Connell]

And it's done.

Continue the debate!

[P52Smith]

The qualifying laps could be done on tracks similar to the fusion tracks which you used to unlock the next team, though I can't remember what they were called.

[mdhay]

You mean Devilia?

[P52Smith]

Yep, that's the one.

As I don't actually own Fusion (or indeed a PS2) I hadn't really taken much notice of the names when I played it at my friend's house, however, I think they would be useful in this idea, a random version is selected and then everybody runs it on their own, the fastest one wins.

[RJ O'Connell]

The qualifying laps could be done on tracks similar to the fusion tracks which you used to unlock the next team, though I can't remember what they were called.
Wouldn't make a lot of sense. The starting grid for a circuit race shouldn't be set according to times run on a point-to-point track that the race won't be held on.