Barrel Rolls in HD [Archive] - WipeoutZone Forum

Tomahawk

5th February 2008, 04:50 PM

As I'm no real fan of barrel rolls, I'd like to see them thrown out of future wipeout games completely. But as Arnaud already mentioned they surely will be included in HD. I just hope that SL will reduce the possibilities to pull one off to a minimum because there's simply way to much possible barrel rolls in pulse and pure and the ability to link them (like on metropia black) makes things even worse I think.
To bring back the hyperthrust like in W3O doesn't seem to be a realistic option to me because this would never work with the absorb function. To reintroduce hyperthrust and pitlanes just to get rid of the barrel roll function would be a huge step back in the series' development. Hell, this kind of regression would make me feel as if I'd pulled out all my lightbulbs in my flat and replace them with candles...

I think the barrel roll system would work really well in HD or any future wipeout games if SL added some feature to forbid linking barrel rolls (meaning to use the air time and speed you get out of the first BR to immediately do another one) and if SL made sure that "ninja-style-BR" (like you can do on the edges of the free track areas at tech de ra for example) are not possible anymore. This could be achieved by expanding the mag-strip function imo. Just make the ship stick to the ground for a fraction of a second when it hits the ground right after a barrel roll, as if it would land on a tiny bit of mag-strip. The bad thing about this solution is that you'd presumably have to sacrifice a little bit of the games' floatiness and if not implemented properly we might get a game like wipeout fusion 2, which surlely nobody would like to see.

Dogg Thang

5th February 2008, 04:52 PM

Totally agree with Infoxicated. Having to mess about with track layout and add mag-strip sections to reduce the barrel rolls is nuts.

Just pull 'em.

Leave the pick-up boost and leave it at that, I say.

Rapier Racer

5th February 2008, 05:41 PM

But as Arnaud already mentioned they surely will be included in HD. I just hope that SL will reduce the possibilities to pull one off to a minimum because there's simply way to much possible barrel rolls in pulse and pure

But HD is Pure and Pulse tracks? How can they make it any less without going to great lengths? Maybe we can work out how many could potentially be in the game, based on the videos and screen shots we've seen we know most of the tracks so.

Phantom Class.

Venita K: Possible: 3 Difficulty Rating: hard to do any of them though the first one is easier, 2 done off the little drops in the tunnels and another can be done if Turbo boost is used correctly as you come out of the last tunnel

Chenghau: Possbile: 3 Difficulty Rating: 2 are easy as pie, the one off the last drop before the tunnel which could rival the amphiseum whites drop for easier BR spot one could proove tricky at the little drops after the really sharp bend (you know the one I'm talking about lol) possibly to do one off each drop?

Sol 2: Possible: 0 for most people me included 1 for smart arses that try to fly along and then off the track walls, this rarely works from what I've seen.

Moa Therma: Possible: 0?? Maybe one on that tricky last corner?

Anulpha Pass: Possible: 2, one of the shortcut ledge which is easy and another harder turbo boost assisted one just before the track gets really narrow.

Sebenco Climb: Possible: 5!!, one after the first corner, off the little hump in the track, second is only possible if you get a turbo from the first weapons pad and boost along the little straight section before that bend that lets you see those windmill things, 3rd can be done on the long straight that leads into the tunnel if you get enough height on the corner leading into the straight. A fourth as you exit the tunnel into the chicanes and a possible fifth on the last little drop before the line, that one is hard.

I need help to finish this analysis cant remember the rest of the tracks.

There a shot of a track with a load of chevrons and magstrip possibly vertica? How many here 1 maybe. I also saw a shot of a track that could have been Blue Ridge but I really cannot tell.

Tomahawk

5th February 2008, 05:41 PM

RR, I was talking about what I hope or would like to see in HD (or any other future wipeout). I don't know if SL would have to go to great lengths to implement a solution like I suggested or if a solution like this is implementable at all. I'm just trying to add some constructive criticism and talk about maybe possible solutions not only bashing on an already existing feature of the game...

This discussion recalls a comment from infoxicated to my mind which makes me laugh for hours every time I read it:

click me and read the last paragraph of the post (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=66401&postcount=76)

Sorry Rob, your post just screamed at me to be dragged out of the shadows again... :g

Sausehuhn

5th February 2008, 05:45 PM

The problem with BRs is that they do not work everytime. Why do you put a mechanism into a game that isn't fully supported? It's like having pitlanes that could recharge your energy, but just if you've enough luck. Or airbrakes that may work randomly. It simply makes no sense.

But that may be fixed with the power the PS3 gives us.
But anyway: BRs destroy the flow of the game, at least for me. I can only repeat myself: I want back a more traditional handling (even though it requires complete recoding - hey, it's a new game and new games should have new elements included; we don't want to end like NFSU and its successors, do we?). Cause it's bassically the handling that gives us the possibilities to do BRs almost everywhere. With Pure's/Pulse's handling the ships's nose pulls up almost after every small jump - this way there's enough air between the craft and the track and enough time for a BR. And as you can see people can use almost every bumb for BRs now. Just look how ships react after a jump: they fall down like a stone and the nose pulls dramatically up.
If I remember correctly pitch control was supposed to be used after jumps in the old WipEouts: to gain height and stay longer in midair - now it's just used to decrease the slow-down effect you get from pulled-up noses.

Another reason why I don't like BRs is the fact that new track layouts (and also the technologies of PSP and PS3) include more static objects that can be used as ramps. I like static objects, because they are more realistic compared to the PS1-WipEouts where you could easily fly through walls. But the static objects combined with the handling make the race to a search of new little ramps or bumbs that may result a BR.

I gave a clear "no" for BRs.

Lion

5th February 2008, 09:13 PM

I prefer absorbing weapons to restore energy over the old pitlane system. Asayyeah's suggestion would make it necessary to put pitlanes back in. it reads to me like a new way of doing hyperthrust
and personally I never liked hyperthrust.

I voted yes, as I like barrel rolls. The timing aspect of them as well as the necessity of finding suitable locations to use them (every opportunity is not always the best idea) both makes them useful and requires enough skill to make it satisfying when I pull it off (rather than slamming my side into the track). The risk/reward balance makes it work for me.
The ONLY time when BRs annoy me is when I have enough energy and I do all the dpad movements correctly and it still doesn't roll.

The Gracer

5th February 2008, 09:41 PM

Rob makes a good point - and thank you for the giggles. :D

i think the BR is a good system that should be kept. the only reason it didn't work as planned on Pure (and sometimes on Pulse) was the framerate dropping, which is due to a hardware limitation (IIRC).

Do you really think the PS3 isnt going to have the resources to make this happen when you want it to happen? Im an xbox fan myself but im not going to deny that the PS3 is a SERIOUS bit of kit.

keep BRs - just make damn sure they work when you want them.

zargz

5th February 2008, 09:57 PM

Just pull 'em.

Leave the pick-up boost and leave it at that, I say.couldn't have said it better myself.

BRs totally ruined wipEout for me ..
I'm actually happy I spent 2 years in sunny Thailand and 'missed' all the 'thing' that pure was.
chances are I won't be buying woHD nore a ps3
w'o" being the reason I bought psx and fusion the reason I didn't buy ps2 .. http://www.geocities.com/zargz/leenden/ken.gif

at least that's my feeling atm ..

Rapier Racer

5th February 2008, 10:07 PM

I would really doubt the PS3 doesn't have the resources to ensure it works at all times. What I think is this is the first ever Wipeout on a new console thats apparently not so easy to develop for so with that in mind there won't be any major criticism from me if HD has some hiccups.

BARTgai

6th February 2008, 01:21 AM

I voted "No" because i'm sick and tired of the cheap boost/roll combo thingy thingzor. I hate the whole idea, not to mention half the time my ship wont even do a roll when i tell it to.

Chill

6th February 2008, 08:01 AM

I voted no (duh)... anyway, it might have been better if you got a speed boost when landing just right or something, but a barrel roll in a A-G Racing Craft?? They're not planes you know... c'mon, besides, it's so artificial it's rediculous. LRL and their goes your automatic barrel roll... screw that, it's not even controlled and done by you, it's automatic!!!

The idea of actually reacting to things when in mid-air is cool though... like if getting hit by a missile, and actually starting to flip one way, or something or other, that should be before a barrell roll is even brought up, it sounds pre-school... seriously, I'm sorry for the strong words, but it's the truth, did a 5-year-old think it up???

But I just deal with it, cause I love everything else about wipeout too much to really deal with it... so I'm still getting Pulse and HD... ;)

RJ O'Connell

9th February 2008, 08:27 PM

As much as I don't like barrel rolls that much, they've pretty much been stitched into the fabric of this generation of Wipeout games (Pure, HD, Pulse) so the only realistic chance we'll see barrel rolls done away with would be in the first "full" WO game for PS3.

BulletWraith

10th February 2008, 04:10 AM

I voted no to BR's in HD, but now I've thought about it more, I agree with O'Connell, they've got to stay. and we are going to have to wait another year or two for a new WipEout league to begin, new Ships, new tracks and a new idea to come along, I didn't much like the boost system in wip3out but I'd rather that than this rolling that reminds a bit to much of the F-Zero spin Attack(which would cool for a cheat code)

zer0shen 0ut

Chill

10th February 2008, 07:03 PM

so the only realistic chance we'll see barrel rolls done away with would be in the first "full" WO game for PS3.

I understand that you already have the BR in HD ready to go, but as for me, I'd rather like to see it gone after that. I never really believed it was going to be able to be taken out of HD, but the main reason for my vote was that I hoped for a change in this later on in the series after HD... I see where your coming from that the game already goes well with BRs with it's sense of style, but to be brutally honest, I really don't like the style Wipeout has headed after WO3 as much... I do like it (mabye I should wait for my Pulse to arrive before I say all this), but it's gone away with some wonderful aspects of art... Now it's hardcore and adrenalin amplified, and their's nothing wrong with that... but their still was a sense of feeling the tracks elements (like rain and sun), "blended" not "pumped" with it's music somewhat, and it blended well without BRs...

But I can understand that the rating might not be as good as raters say... "it's just the same old wipeout with different tracks and crafts and better graphics, it's not good enough." But, I guess I'm just one of those hardcore fans that likes keeping it's originality over what the raters think...

EDIT: Alright, mabye I take back what I said about all the elements not being in the newer games, lol... they actually kick a lot of ass, but the BR... still not doin' it for me... other than that though, these games are not far from Wipeout perfection... :redface: I should just wait tell I have Pulse in my hand before I judge...

Axel

21st February 2008, 12:32 AM

Barrel rolls are just stretching things too far. I mean come on Studio Liverpool, lets just stick with the racing please!!!! Oh and bring back the floatiness a lot more please. If I wanted F-zero, I would have purchased it :)

edit: How about a option to turn off BR? This would be a godly feature no?

Chill

22nd February 2008, 06:54 AM

Axel... You are my friend... ;)

Axel

22nd February 2008, 07:44 PM

LOL I know where you are coming from Chill and I also feel BR is just not Wipeout for me. Call me old fashion but when I'm still playing the old games and getting the same satisfaction, then boy did they do something very right. I actually like this HD version a lot that I will be getting a PS3 for it. But BR? I see it now, multiplayer fun with BR all over the place :(

Sausehuhn

22nd February 2008, 07:49 PM

Don't worry: most people in multiplayer do not use BRs because they do not risk to take a look in the manual ;)

Axel

23rd February 2008, 10:35 AM

LOL I hope this is true mate, I really do :)

Chill

24th February 2008, 03:47 AM

Uummm... I'm still using the BR, not because it's awesome or anything, but to improve my times and show a true standing of where I'm at with the rest of the world when it comes to skill to Wipeout...

Mabye if something else was thought up to take place of the BR and still offer a turbo boost after a jump?? But I don't even care for the turbo boost all together, I liked the short jumps from Wipeout XL and 3... it's still did beautifully without BRs...

conrad

26th February 2008, 03:27 PM

I've gotta be honest; I love barrel rolls. It adds a welcome extra layer to the racing for me.

lunar

26th February 2008, 03:50 PM

*sends out Zargz and Medusa armed with pitchforks and flaming torches* ;)

joking, I see where you`re coming from, there is an argument to say that they can be enjoyable and strategic. I`d suggest, as part of the "if we have to have them let`s change how they work" way of arguing, that if we have to have them in HD they should take a LOT more shield energy away, to make you really think about whether your BR is providing a benefit in the overall race strategy. You had to think like this a lot more in Pure than Pulse. Also, in Pure, the fact that you could kill yourself with BRs in Time Trial made it more interesting and you really had to pace your BRs, and you were punished for wall hits with having less BR potential for the rest of the race. In a Goteki, I think, you had 14 BRs in a perfect Phantom race, but one less with the slightest wall hit. You could easily lose another one. Hanging on at the end of the TT with a pixel of energy, because you had Barrel Rolled yourself to the point of explosion, was very very exciting, and this has gone in Pulse. This was a better way of doing it, imo, than the unlimited BR carnival we have now.

I still think that just making it faster would be better, but of course there`s more than one opinion in the world. And like many democratic exercises this poll is a free choice, so long as you vote for the right side ;) *searches for way to hack into Wipeoutzone server*

infoxicated

26th February 2008, 05:17 PM

I've gotta be honest; I love barrel rolls. It adds a welcome extra layer to the racing for me.
Well, then I suppose I gotta be honest, too;

My interest in WipEout as a series ends with WipEout Pulse. It ended about three weeks ago, to be exact, because that's the last time I played the game. Admittedly it was on shaky ground with Pure because I just didn't like the handling progression or the barrel rolls in that, but my love for the series is now gone completely. The Euro Convention this year will be my last tour of duty with the game, because after that I wont have a whole lot of reason to play it.

I didn't get into WipEout over Barrel Rolls and the complete weapons saturation that it's become, and those are the reasons I'm now not into it. I'm not going to continue to play the series just because the name WipEout is slapped on the front cover. :|

WipEout HD marks three games in a row with barrel rolls and - assuming it plays like Pulse - four in a row where weapons have dictated the gameplay. How can I continue to pretend that it's my favourite gaming series when it's been eight years since a version came out that I truly loved playing?

Truth is, I cant. I might as well be running a Manic Miner fan-site, longing for the days before Miner Willy moved into that mansion and it all went to hell, keeping up the vain hope that there's some way back.

Maybe one day in the distant future there'll be a version that has more in common with the racing game I liked to begin with than with Crash Team Racing. But I'm not going to fill the gap barrel rolling and reverse quaking as if it's all I ever wanted WipEout to be.

The fact is there are plenty more games on the shelves - so many that if there's a game mechanic that's pissing me off then there are lots of other games I can play instead. That applies to WipEout as much as it applied to Madden when they made it too arcadey and I quit playing that after six years solid.

Don't sweat it, I'll keep the site up, pay the bills, do the moderating, all that jazz. But the WipEout that I love and the WipEout that people who are voting "yes" love are totally different things.*

*It is worth mentioning that the outcome of this poll has no bearing at all on WipEout HD.

Medusa

26th February 2008, 05:54 PM

"*sends out Zargz and Medusa armed with pitchforks and flaming torches* "

I gotta say that if I'd already went out and bought a PS3 you can bet I would be out there like an angry demon in a moment. That much money to play tracks I've already spent money to play...yeah, they look gorgeous in HD. Looking pretty doesn't make the game any better though.

"The fact is there are plenty more games on the shelves - so many that if there's a game mechanic that's pissing me off then there are lots of other games I can play instead. That applies to WipEout as much as it applied to Madden when they made it too arcadey and I quit playing that after six years solid."

All I play for video games anymore is wipeout. Everything else feels sort of...wrong. But I've still got all the real wipeouts sitting on my shelf at home, some of them I've yet to get the most out of. Even WipEout (1) I can easily go back to although I've pretty much played it to death already.:p

I see where foxy is coming from and am near the same opinion myself, although I am still enjoying Pulse, mostly for the easy across-the-world multiplayer it allows.

And yes, slapping Wipeout on the cover does NOT make it great (*cough* Fusion...). I think Pulse is a great game only because of the multiplayer. And even then it manages to screw that up sometimes with the crashes...etc...

Lance

26th February 2008, 06:28 PM

I'm afraid that the opinion of the hardcore true fans will not matter as long as Sony can find enough new buyers [unfamiliar with the old series] to outnumber them. Yes, the true fans will buy 3 copies of the game from different regions instead of just buying 1 like most of the newbies, but I suspect that the real fans are outnumbered by a larger margin than 3 to 1, so their purchases would still be in the minority, and hence less influential on marketing decisions.

Medusa

26th February 2008, 09:23 PM

"I'm afraid that the opinion of the hardcore true fans will not matter as long as Sony can find enough new buyers...their purchases would still be in the minority, and hence less influential on marketing decisions."

Yes, I think your statement has already been proven, Lance. It doesn't matter whether I buy a PS3 or not, there are many thousands who have/will and also many thousands who will buy a game which calls itself wipeout because it's a cool-looking game. These same will also not care whether barrel rolls are in the game or even notice that the handling is un-wipeout. "Handling? Is there a difference between ships?" ask the newbies....

Anyways it's sort of funny, but I keep thinking that the next generation of "Wipeout fans" were born the same year as Britney Spears' big break, and watch American Idol for their favourite tv show, and buy whatever the commercials tell them to buy, and...

I'd better stop now.:redface:

conrad

26th February 2008, 10:47 PM

Well, then I suppose I gotta be honest, too;

My interest in WipEout as a series ends with WipEout Pulse. It ended about three weeks ago, to be exact, because that's the last time I played the game. Admittedly it was on shaky ground with Pure because I just didn't like the handling progression or the barrel rolls in that, but my love for the series is now gone completely. The Euro Convention this year will be my last tour of duty with the game, because after that I wont have a whole lot of reason to play it.

I didn't get into WipEout over Barrel Rolls and the complete weapons saturation that it's become, and those are the reasons I'm now not into it. I'm not going to continue to play the series just because the name WipEout is slapped on the front cover. :|

WipEout HD marks three games in a row with barrel rolls and - assuming it plays like Pulse - four in a row where weapons have dictated the gameplay. How can I continue to pretend that it's my favourite gaming series when it's been eight years since a version came out that I truly loved playing?

Truth is, I cant. I might as well be running a Manic Miner fan-site, longing for the days before Miner Willy moved into that mansion and it all went to hell, keeping up the vain hope that there's some way back.

Maybe one day in the distant future there'll be a version that has more in common with the racing game I liked to begin with than with Crash Team Racing. But I'm not going to fill the gap barrel rolling and reverse quaking as if it's all I ever wanted WipEout to be.

The fact is there are plenty more games on the shelves - so many that if there's a game mechanic that's pissing me off then there are lots of other games I can play instead. That applies to WipEout as much as it applied to Madden when they made it too arcadey and I quit playing that after six years solid.

Don't sweat it, I'll keep the site up, pay the bills, do the moderating, all that jazz. But the WipEout that I love and the WipEout that people who are voting "yes" love are totally different things.*

*It is worth mentioning that the outcome of this poll has no bearing at all on WipEout HD.

I do agree with you for the most part; im not the greatest fan of Pulse; mainly because of the tracks. Pure I enjoyed, it also reintroduced me to wipeout after the PSone heydays (I never played fusion for example).

I dont believe that barrel rolling is the downfall of wipeout. The series feels like it has no direction and I think that is ultimately the problem.

RJ O'Connell

26th February 2008, 10:58 PM

But I already own Wipeout XL.

Anyway, back on topic...

ColdRem'S

26th February 2008, 11:25 PM

Hi all!

As all of you, I'm a big WipEout fan, I 've played all the wipe games (except Wipe64) and you may even see me on the wipeout-game.com boards.
I come every day to read your thoughts and expectations about the future WipEout HD (hs: give us a release date!!!).
I'm so surprised about your reaction Infoxicated!I mean, I understand your point of view about the (sometimes abusive) use of weapons, but not about the BRs. As a true pilot ;), I play with the inside view and I enjoy each BR I make (well... when it works!) This is what I call an adrenalin rush!
When I play WipEout Pulse, I still recognize the game I've been playing for hours!
That's why I can't wait to see WipEout HD and, even more, the future WipEout PS3.
Don't get me wrong Infoxicated, I respect your point of view, it's just that I don't understand.

(ps:excuse my english, it's not my mothertongue!;))

JABBERJAW

27th February 2008, 03:32 AM

A lot of people feel that this game just feels nothing like the older versions. I'm one of them. I do like this game, but it is not floaty at all like the old ones, like what was said 8 years ago. Newbies would not even notice this difference, so I just don't understand why the physics cannot be like the older games, which are much more advanced, and difficult to master. Hopefully the ps3 wipeout 3 will be like the old ones, but I'm not holding my breath. I am a little torn on the barrel roll thing. If the game was floaty like the old games, I wouldn't even want it at all, but with pure and pulse, it does speed the game up, although that could be rectified with a speed increase. It is kinda stupid to have to get that barrel roll in to get the best times(I have to get on the edge of the track to get high enough for the roll kinda thing), instead of a good racing line. That being said though, I hate sideshift the most by far, this feels exactly like fzero turning and wrecks the physics of using the brakes correctly. I like pulse alot more than pure though, because of the faster acceleration after weapon hits.

Rapier Racer

27th February 2008, 02:34 PM

so I just don't understand why the physics cannot be like the older games, which are much more advanced, and difficult to master.

I think you answered your own question there. :)

Chill

27th February 2008, 04:58 PM

Wipeout isn't a game to be side-thought... Wipeout is the game of my life. I have no other memories with any other series as much as Wipeout, because it drew me into the series unlike any other series... so I can't just say I would just go to the next game on the shelf!! That would mean a lot more to me than just another game... Wipeout my-as-well be a religion for me...

BRs are unrealistic, sideshift is unrealistic, and without the bounce, it no longer feels as free and fun as the past PS1 Wipeouts (my definition of the series so far)... You could bounce so much higher, mabye that's why the toned it down, because the BR would've been used so much when bouncing... but like I said, BRs would never work, and I feel that the float is worth more than the BR, by far... I'd rather have the Wipeout 3 Speed-tactics than BRs, honestly... but I can't lose Wipeout, it's too badass to go away.

Remember, the reason Wipeout still exists today are because of the original versions, which are great.

EDIT: Part of the Negcon topic coulda gone with this...

Rapier Racer

27th February 2008, 06:43 PM

Oh boy, the meer suggestion you hint at! That floatyness has been compromised for the sake of Barrel rolls :p If the were actually the case...

Oh yeah look at that 2000th post and what not :) cake please.

Lance

27th February 2008, 06:47 PM

Congrats on the 2k. Let's hope the candle on the cake doesn't heat up the discussion tOO much. ;)

Sausehuhn

27th February 2008, 07:02 PM

...Let's hope the candle...

candle! CANDLE! 2000 CANDLES for you RR!!

JABBERJAW

28th February 2008, 12:23 AM

I think you answered your own question there.

"Master" being the key word. It is no more difficult to play with those physics, just more difficult to get really good times(master)

RJ O'Connell

28th February 2008, 12:36 AM

I'll argue that it's also about preference as well.

WO1 is one of my stronger games. For awhile I thought lunar, Medusa, and Asayyeah weren't going to touch some of my times (and I was wrong! XD) yet I am getting KILLED in the Pulse TT challenges.

Sideshifts can help you get around tight hairpins if you've run out of room, but I speak for everyone who has raced Outpost 7 that just one or two double taps won't get you around a hairpin without planting your nose into the barrier. Especially at Phantom speed. I think the effect of sideshifts with regards to handling is being slightly exaggerated.

And I think we're diverting from the topic of BRs just a bit...

Chill

28th February 2008, 05:53 AM

Yeah, but I have just one thing about the whole sideshift thing, sorry... but doesn't anyone realize that the sideshift has always been possible throughout the PS1 series? It has, you just make a very quick transition from your main air-brake to the other one, then back again, turning with them... only it makes more sense because the craft catches a quick gust of wind during this period which in turn forces it to the side... and unlike the delayed unkown reaction time in Pure and Pulse on Phantom, it actually helps a lot if mastered right... so the newer releases seem to have less thought behind what could really happen then the previous in the series, which matters quite a bit to me... especially seeing a BR, I just don't understand how that would work... I have to see truth in something before I can think it looks cool, getting the turbo boost afterwords definately doesn't make any sense either...

Task

29th February 2008, 12:24 AM

You want some truth with your BR? Some scientific reasoning behind why doing a cartwheel could make you go faster? No problem Chill, I'll just pull out my copy of the FX300 league manual...

Section 12.1 - "Flair" rewards
As per the decision of the FX300 proposal meeting #12783 (Discussions on raising attendance #57 - Possible methods of rewarding pilots for crowd-pleasing actions) any pilot successfully executing arial acrobatics while being the only craft in a 255m stretch of track (with at least 85m clear in either direction) will be rewarded by the onboard weapon system with a standard "turbo" upon succesfully landing said stunt.
Addendum A: Due to this benefit not being powered by the standard weapon activation system (which is seperate from the flair reward monitoring system)a seperate power source was required and the shield energy system was used.
Do you like BR now?

I still think it kind of bites. 8 )

Lance

29th February 2008, 12:27 AM

Sounds a bit too much like those stupid ''kudos points'' for cornering style in Project Gotham Street Racing on the Xbox. Ruined what would otherwise have been a pretty good game.

RJ O'Connell

29th February 2008, 04:18 PM

Hold on.

Nobody told me the FX300 Rulebook was on sale! [/offtopic]

I think that's the closest thing we'll come to a definite reason why BRs = Turbo.

Chill

29th February 2008, 04:42 PM

Wait... how can their be a rule book for something set in the future?? I think some people get ahead of themselves a bit just to cover their own ass, lol... ;)

JABBERJAW

29th February 2008, 05:49 PM

except it's not faster to make turns, and does not work anywhere near the same wierd way as the sideshift of pure and pulse.

Chill

29th February 2008, 09:01 PM

But slowing down is the nature of catching that gust of wind and moving yourself to the side, because your entire craft acts like one big wing for a moment... so slowing down naturally would happen.

Now, if someone could explain the physics of pure and pulses sideshifts, that would be nice... otherwise, making something up that couldn't work is not for me... and please don't let any physics get all outlandish or anything... like a jet pushed from the side. Their couldn't be jets on the side... that would be too much side-weight to be easily damaged... as well as the flap flies you away from that side within the quick two flap movement, cause their's no way that little airbrake flap could create a movement as great as that...

Lion

29th February 2008, 10:29 PM

thrust vectoring?
gravity field manipulation? (ie: momentary rotation so the gravity field pulls the ship to one side)

Chill

2nd March 2008, 05:32 AM

Anyway... I'll have to look into those Lion... ;)

But one more thing about BRs... why were they included in Zone mode?? I honestly can't stand it when I accidtently do a BR in zone mode and their goes a whole load of energy that could have got me that much further... as well as thrusting me into a wall... :brickwall

zargz

2nd March 2008, 05:19 PM

..any pilot successfully executing arial acrobatics while being the only craft in a 255m stretch of track (with at least 85m clear in either direction) will be rewarded ..hmm! a 'perfect' excuse for the BR bug in single player .. :?

.. but doesn't anyone realize that the sideshift has always been possible throughout the PS1 series? It has, you just make a very quick transition from your main air-brake to the other one, then back again, turning with them... only it makes more sense ..yes, a lot more sence. we used to call it counter-breaking back in the days and I used it a Lot even in 2097 and wo3.

JABBERJAW

3rd March 2008, 06:12 AM

chill said:
"and please don't let any physics get all outlandish or anything... like a jet pushed from the side. Their couldn't be jets on the side... that would be too much side-weight to be easily damaged... as well as the flap flies you away from that side within the quick two flap movement, cause their's no way that little airbrake flap could create a movement as great as that... "

There must be something like a jet pushed from the side, and a little airbrake flap could create a movement as great as that. :)

had to, sorry

BulletWraith

3rd March 2008, 08:50 AM

yes JABBERJAW I have to agree, it's like saying a Harrier Jump Jet (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0102a.shtml) can't do a Vertical take off
many things are possible, if Anti Grave Engines are possible then I think side thrusters are possible

Churr
-Stevie

Lance

3rd March 2008, 06:17 PM

Small airbrakes can have a big effect. Why? > The higher the speed, the more effective airbrakes, rudders, and other control surfaces become; this is because the air pressure on the surfaces increases, but the racecraft's mass does not, so at high speeds even a small control surface can have a big effect with even a small deflection. Things change when speed goes high enough to reach the zone of the speed of sound, where large surfaces are required. This is why you see sonic and supersonic jet planes using designs where the entire stabiliser moves. The instability of the airflow in the sonic region reduces the effect of control surfaces because of airflow separations.

jklasdf

3rd March 2008, 06:44 PM

i think it would be sick if you had to twist the controller or jerk it or something to do a barrel roll.

that is, assuming ur not using the sixaxis for sole control of the ship. but still, i would love that

Chill

4th March 2008, 03:59 PM

:o Hmmm... ok, but if that's the case, why should one extension of the Air Brake prepare it for a turn, and two extensions in a row make it move to the side??

I suppose side-jets or possible, but I don't know if that should effect a craft next to you within a race or not... it would probably push it over or something right? And then their would go a BR... :lol and it would sound like a bit of wasted energy...

Your mean JABBERJAW!!!! ;)

Lance

4th March 2008, 04:58 PM

An airbrake applied on one side produces a drag along the longitudinal axis of the ship; it doesn't move the ship to the side but only applies a torquing force that produces yaw, which is a rotation around a vertical axis of the ship in the same vertical plane [geometrically speaking] as the airbrake but at the center of the ship. No application of the airbrake can produce a true sideshift in which the entire ship moves sideways equal amounts at both ends, in other words with no steering input, just shifting sideways. The game Killer Loop has a true sideshift like that.

Presumably, the double press of the airbrake button does not activate the airbrake at all, but controls another mechanism. The brake button is probably used just because the PSP doesn't have enough buttons to give each function its own button.

Lateral thrusters that apply side force in a balanced way could work on a Wipeout racecraft, and if the body of the thruster is pretty much fully within the body of the ship, with only the opening of the thrust jet exposed at the side, it's not going to catch on anything.

Asayyeah

4th March 2008, 08:16 PM

It has, you just make a very quick transition from your main air-brake to the other one, then back again, turning with them...
Do that on the speedpads and you got my airbrakes technique of getting higher speed on XL.

To Rob : last wipeout convention for you :eek I cannie believe this, let's talk about that in front of a pint of lager at Dam

Lion

5th March 2008, 06:25 AM

Presumably, the double press of the airbrake button does not activate the airbrake at all, but controls another mechanism. The brake button is probably used just because the PSP doesn't have enough buttons to give each function its own button.I made the same guess lance, which opens some interesting doors for movement control in WipEout HD.
if we can sideshift one way while airbraking on the opposite side, what will the ship's behaviour be? my guess is some seriously fun, and very controlled drift.

Perhaps those that toured SL can let us know if the controls could be mapped to allow that?

Chill

5th March 2008, 07:06 AM

That would make more sense... I made that assumption about the side openings of the jet being on both sides rather than seperate jets as well, but then remembered that would still use up some of the jet power from behind, and still wouldn't slow down the ship as much as two air brakes working one in one with each other, so the sideshift does make sense now that I think of it... ok, my bad... ;)

eLhabib

18th September 2008, 09:13 AM

thought I move this into the right thread:

If BRs take off a whopping 15% of a ship's energy each time, time trialing will very much be BR-limited-- unless the shield re-charge is sky-high as in Wipeout Pulse.

In Wipeout Pure, the re-charge rate in free-play mode is slow enough that one can run out of shields by performing barrel rolls-- and time trials are definitely BR limited at least for ships that had low total shields. (The BR cost mechanic was based on an absolute rather than a relative proportion in Pure, so some ships are better suited for repeat BRs).

In wipEout HD Speed Lap and TT, the energy used by BRs is instantly replenished.

Amon

18th September 2008, 10:01 AM

Maybe one day in the distant future there'll be a version that has more in common with the racing game I liked to begin with than with Crash Team Racing. But I'm not going to fill the gap barrel rolling and reverse quaking as if it's all I ever wanted WipEout to be.

I voted no and i tend to agree. For me too wipeout was much more racing than shooting.

I've always seen Wipeout as a "simulation" of the future. And while track and ship design and handling in the first games are for me a believable rapresentation of this future, barrell rolls and pilots killed many times on the track by weapons are not. Speaking of weapons i would prefer something that permits me to slow down the competition, and something that permits me to avoid other racers doing this to me.

It's not a matter of "digital violence" it's a matter of logic for me.

But we can always choose to race without barrell rolls and weapons if we want.

This leaves us only with time attack, online an zone modes.. but it's better than nothing.

Lance

18th September 2008, 07:17 PM

~snip~
In wipEout HD Speed Lap and TT, the energy used by BRs is instantly replenished.

My initial reaction: Well, that sucks. [which is nOt a compliment ;) ]

That would turn TT into a barrel-roll fest, and I just can't imagine myself wanting to spend that much time on such an artificial technique; it would take away the feeling of immersion in reality that I want. It's a trick that would be entertaining a few times, but after that becomes increasingly irritating. Considering that TT and hot lap require hours of play to achieve the best possible record, I just wouldn't want to do it, even though TT records have been my chief pleasure in WipEout.

Sausehuhn

18th September 2008, 07:55 PM

You're right Lance.
After people started to analyse the tracks for potential BR-sections, Time Trial became uninteresting for me. I want to race.
Okay, if there are BRs in the game and I have to do 1-2 per lap, that's okay maybe. But if I only have to think about where to execute BRs and I'm more focussed on that than on the racing, then I think something's wrong with the game.

infoxicated

18th September 2008, 08:33 PM

In wipEout HD Speed Lap and TT, the energy used by BRs is instantly replenished.
Really? :|

While it doesn't entirely shock me to see my once favourite gaming series hit a new low, it still sucks.

leungbok

18th September 2008, 08:46 PM

When i first played wipeout (the original), years ago, i loved the fact i drove a ship flying on tracks. I loved too the use of weapons, huge fun in double split screens with two psx, two tv's, a link cable and talented pilots to fight (my cousins). I loved all this stuff because it was science-fiction, even if the ship's behavior seemed logical. Now, i think that barrel-rolls are very well integrated in this universe, they are a part of the wipeout racing now ! wipeout games are made for fun, that's all !! There's a huge park of car simulation games on every consol with very realistic features. I think too that developpers in SL are trying to give us new features destined to enhance the fun on their games, trying to both, satisfy the hardcore fans and to attract new players, also in the disliked fusion (not by me). As a creator myself (i'm a professional penciler),i respect their décisions in the game's creation. Their choices (good or bad to us) are law !!

Sausehuhn

18th September 2008, 08:52 PM

As long as we are willing to buy the product, yes.

Frances_Penfold

18th September 2008, 08:54 PM

thought I move this into the right thread:

In wipEout HD Speed Lap and TT, the energy used by BRs is instantly replenished.

Thanks for getting this to the right place :)

So basically, this will be exactly like Pulse, yes? Hmmm.

I am a minority voice at WOZ in that I like barrel rolls, because they add an extra layer of strategy to time trials. Still, barrel rolls could have been allowed in WOHD with the 15% energy reduction and that would have arguably made time trials even MORE strategic.

Still, I would probably rather have the WOHD system than the Pure system, where there was a set amount of energy per barrel roll, because that essentially forced competitive players to use a ship with high shields to play whole race time trials, so that they can repeatedly barrel roll.

Mad-Ice

18th September 2008, 09:05 PM

It is just too bad that BR's are in HD but it is even worse that they work like Pulse in TT, immediate replenishment! Even in Pure we had to think about where to BR or not to get the fastest time and it was really exciting to do that last BR with your last energy trying to get to the end of your fastest TT without exploding in the last corner.:cold

Sausehuhn

18th September 2008, 09:10 PM

The really bad thing about BRs is that they give the leading players in a race even more chances to win, and the bad even less.
Who's once in front of the battlefield can restore his energy without big problem,s thus make a lot of BRs.
And those who are already fired from all sides try to keep that bit of enery that's left, have no real chance to execute BRs at all, making the distance between the leading player and the last even bigger.

leungbok

18th September 2008, 09:18 PM

Hence the interest to be part of the first;)

Medusa

18th September 2008, 09:33 PM

Yeah, as if bombs and mines didn't give enough of an advantage to the leader.

I'm surprised they have so much energy available for barrel rolls in TT/Speed Lap - did no one pay any attention to the ridiculous amounts of possible BRs in Pulse? And now you get energy replenished more easily?
What garbage.

Flashback Jack

18th September 2008, 10:18 PM

As a compulsive barrel roller, I didn't think they needed to nerf 'em to begin with, but if the amount of energy replenished per weapon absorbed offsets the nerfage, glee once more!

- F

judus

18th September 2008, 10:48 PM

I'd prefer both BR and Turbo to be axed and replaced with a semi-hyperthrust. So you pick this up just like any other weapon, but unlike a turbo, you hold fire to use it at your will (WO3 style). They could fix a usage restriction either by time (like auto pilot) or by some other unit of quantity (like canon).

eLhabib

19th September 2008, 08:36 AM

Honestly? I was worried about BRs in HD also, but somehow it feels they are a lot less present in HD. Maybe because HD is mostly Pure tracks, and they don't lend themselves to BRs that much. Maybe they've also made the animation longer. I don't know what it is, but I can't think of a track that allows for more than 3 BRs in HD (and that's Chenghou, which happens to have 3 actual jumps, so BRs are justified, maybe Vineta if you're really quick), most tracks only allow for 1 or 2. I'm not exactly the master of BRs, though ;)

Amon

19th September 2008, 10:01 AM

There's a huge park of car simulation games on every consol with very realistic features.

Well if that's the case there are much more arcade racers than simulations ....

lunar

19th September 2008, 12:27 PM

Even in Pure we had to think about where to BR or not to get the fastest time and it was really exciting to do that last BR with your last energy trying to get to the end of your fastest TT without exploding in the last corner.:cold

Agree with every word of this post, but I think eL also makes a very good point that the tracks selected for HD don`t may not necessarily lend themselves to making it a stunt game like Pulse is.

ZenDJiNN

19th September 2008, 01:06 PM

Like Frances, i'm one of the fewer here that also thinks BR's are OK, enjoyable in fact, and most certainly help me to achieve some of the TT's etc with a reasonable time.

But maybe it's because i only arrived at the doors of the Wipeout Universe a little over a year ago, when i discovered Pure. I never played ANY of the older Wipeouts, and have since tried a few (2097, Wip3out etc). I didn't really like any of them and given the choice i would always play either Pure or Pulse (Or HD when it's released).

Maybe, in 5-10 years time, when a Mega Modern version is released, with all the bells & whistles that future Tech will bring, i'll be harking back to the Halcyon days of Pure, Pulse & HD? It'll be my "Golden Era" of Wipeout, because that's when i was initiated into AG racing. :)

Axel

19th September 2008, 01:17 PM

Thats fairplay ZenDjinn. Can't really argue with you there. I still think WO64 and WO3SE is the golden area of Wipeout for me :).

I find the problem with BR's in TT is that your not always looking for that perfect racing line anymore. I mean you have more to do, but it reminds me of the whole snaking thing in F-zero GX which killed the TT for me in that game.

I hope that BR's wont be used more than twice in a lap because they ain't that fun. but they will help me kill a few racers in online as they go BR'ing happy :)

Flashback Jack

19th September 2008, 01:59 PM

I hope that BR's wont be used more than twice in a lap..

If there's any consistency to the track layout over Pulse, count on seeing three in Metropia White.

EDIT: Update. I just saw a video of Metropia White in action -- it's almost unrecognizable from its Pulse counterpart. It appears all the minor barrel roll friendly dropoffs have been eliminated. In fact, the track seems to have underwent several very major adjustments in its curves. The same goes for Metropia Black.

- F

Axel

19th September 2008, 02:28 PM

Thats brilliant then. But with the increase floatiness and the higher speed classes, im sure more BR points will be found.

Flashback Jack

19th September 2008, 02:52 PM

For you and everyone else, search out guycocker's videos on Youtube for a few very new videos of multiplayer in action.

- F

leungbok

19th September 2008, 03:50 PM

Yes, what the hell else am I going to do when the ship goes off a jump? It would feel empty without them. I also believe it takes a degree of skill to pull off a BR and you get the little boost for your efforts. Simply pressing a button and getting instant boost is cheap.

I voted yes for the same reasons, and i hope the side overrun (pressing left or right twice) will be there too. New techniques allows new racing's strategies !

eLhabib

19th September 2008, 04:27 PM

What's side overrun?

Flashback Jack

19th September 2008, 04:28 PM

He meant side shift.

- F

Rubix42

19th September 2008, 04:34 PM

I second that question, please explain side overrun to the class:lol

leungbok

19th September 2008, 04:44 PM

Thank's Flash ;)
The side shift helps you to pass an opponent just before your ship, and it can help you passing some difficult turns (v-turn on outpost is an example). You can also use it to go back quickly in the middle of a track when you hit the walls. And you may invent another utility ;)

Flashback Jack

19th September 2008, 04:56 PM

The side shift is still in the game, according to one of the loading menus I'm seeing on a Youtube vid, Leungbok.

- F

leungbok

19th September 2008, 05:02 PM

Cool news, Flash ;)

eLhabib

19th September 2008, 05:07 PM

Oh sideshift, I see. Yes, of course, that's still there.

Medusa

19th September 2008, 05:43 PM

Yeah, I tend to rather overreact to any tiny intimations that there's any sort of possible chance that the number of barrel rolls may be increased...:frown: Sorry about that.

Regarding there being nothing to do while mid-air, that was the beauty of the older, barrel-roll-less games. It was a sudden break from the track madness, and it challenged you to maintain your focus on the controls as you floated along, gazing down at the track and scenery.

Anyway, hopefully the fact that barrel rolls now cost more energy will solve a lot of the barrel roll problems at least in race modes.

Personally I get the feeling that we will never, ever have anything like the classic physics again while barrel rolls remain in the game, since there'd be way to much rollie-pollie-ollie going on.

RJ O'Connell

19th September 2008, 11:26 PM

Yes it can. If the ships drop off like the PS1 games and don't always bounce off the track surface.

But I'm cautiously optimistic this will be the last game we see BRs. Since this is the last known game in the series that's tied in with Pure or Pulse or both.

DawnFireDragoon

20th September 2008, 12:18 AM

well they're in the game so talking about it seems a bit pointless, but i'd say as HD is a shiny version of the psp games which had them in to begin with then barrel rolls are fine. but for a new title get rid of them, go for the classic gameplay that made the series.

Darkdrium777

20th September 2008, 12:58 AM

Go for the classic gameplay that made the series.Truth right there. Accessibility to newcomers always comes at a price. I think we'll see how far this goes with WipEout HD, and I pray it won't become more accessible in the future.

Frances_Penfold

20th September 2008, 01:53 AM

So how do barrel rolls make Wipeout easier?

I can definitely understand how longtime Wipeout fans may miss the physics of the earlier games-- but if anything barrel rolls make Wipeout harder and more complicated as there are more possible ways to complete a lap!

RJ O'Connell

20th September 2008, 03:48 AM

Good point. Barrel Rolls were meant as a move for experts and so far there's been a lot of backlash by the people it was aimed for.

Without them I think the playing field would be much more even. At least until someone finds a faster line 'round the track. :+

eLhabib

14th October 2008, 11:14 AM

Sorry to dig up this relatively old thread, but it fits best.
----------------------------

Now, that HD is here, I can definitely agree that BRs do destroy some of the fun in TTs and Speed Laps, especially on tracks where more than 2 BRs per lap are possible.

However, doing a lot of avalon (no weapons, for the uninformed) races, I found that BRs provide a very nice tactical element. If you have no way of replenishing your shield energy, you have to be very careful with your BR strategy in order not to blow up. I found it quite interesting that - depending who I was up against - I either did as many BRs as possible early in the race, to get away from the pack, and to have a big enough buffer to avoid people catching up should I make slight mistakes (always saving enough energy for an emergency BR, should things get tight), or not using any BRs at all at the beginning, because I felt confident I could keep up with the leader without doing BRs, even if he is doing them, and then boost away with a barrage of BRs when the leader has already used up his shield energy.

wow. long sentence. ;)
what are your thoughts on this? I for one think BRs really add a nice tactical layer to avalon races.

Asayyeah

14th October 2008, 12:42 PM

Agree with you Martin :)

Amon

14th October 2008, 01:23 PM

I think you're right when you speak of Avalon races.

But to to me that's the only "plus" of barrell rolls. To me Wipehout HD would have been a much better game without them.

They have no sense in a logical way. How can a ship accelerate doing them ?

The control metod implemented to execute them is quite poor. Sometimes it does not work at all, and when it works it's really difficult to mantain ship direction.

They take away from piloting skill. Now it's more important to search for places to execute them, instead of searching for a better lin into a corner.

rushin

14th October 2008, 01:40 PM

half the time trial and speed laps are pointless for me because i will only use off big jumps and so on.

would still far rather they removed completely but wont happen, so holding out hope for an on/off option and seperated leaderboards.

Flashback Jack

14th October 2008, 02:34 PM

Good point. Barrel Rolls were meant as a move for experts and so far there's been a lot of backlash by the people it was aimed for.

No backlash from me whatsoever, personally, if I'm considered an "expert." The distinction is more subtle than the common argument that they ruin or otherwise spoil the game, and it's one of ability or lack thereof, but nobody wishes to openly admit this. I'm pretty sure there'd be no debate if there were nobody who had difficulty executing them, but I think we've -- I've beaten that horse down good.

Trust me, I've been down the road of barrel roll hate, though for a few split seconds at a time. I cuss silently when I can't pull them off on my stone stiff Sixxasis controller. That to me is a direct experience of the larger issue of why so many regard barrel rolls with such venom. I simply can't think of any other logical reason. The difference however is that on the next barrel roll attempt, I try a different means of pulling them off, and it usually amounts to adjusting my grip slightly differently. Net result? Decreasing amounts of cussing, and increasing amounts of barrel roll acceptance.

And of course, there'll be those who wish to argue against barrel rolls because they aren't plausible from a realistic standpoint. Arcade racer, not simulation -- remember this. Wipeout is strictly an exercise in futuristic fantasy, and in the context of fantasy, I believe it was RJ O'Connel who described it best -- his description of the ships' onboard computers rewarding the pilot with free turbos for crowd-pleasing theatrics makes it very plausible in that context.

- F

lunar

14th October 2008, 02:49 PM

I do agree with you 100%, Martin. :)

Amon

14th October 2008, 04:13 PM

No backlash from me whatsoever, personally, if I'm considered an "expert." The distinction is more subtle than the common argument that they ruin or otherwise spoil the game, and it's one of ability or lack thereof, but nobody wishes to openly admit this. I'm pretty sure there'd be no debate if there were nobody who had difficulty executing them, but I think we've -- I've beaten that horse down good.

Trust me, I've been down the road of barrel roll hate, though for a few split seconds at a time. I cuss silently when I can't pull them off on my stone stiff Sixxasis controller. That to me is a direct experience of the larger issue of why so many regard barrel rolls with such venom. I simply can't think of any other logical reason. The difference however is that on the next barrel roll attempt, I try a different means of pulling them off, and it usually amounts to adjusting my grip slightly differently. Net result? Decreasing amounts of cussing, and increasing amounts of barrel roll acceptance.

And of course, there'll be those who wish to argue against barrel rolls because they aren't plausible from a realistic standpoint. Arcade racer, not simulation -- remember this. Wipeout is strictly an exercise in futuristic fantasy, and in the context of fantasy, I believe it was RJ O'Connel who described it best -- his description of the ships' onboard computers rewarding the pilot with free turbos for crowd-pleasing theatrics makes it very plausible in that context.

- F

Bad post imo. First, if you think that people don't like barrell rolls only because they're not good at them, this only show your argument. You defend barrell rolls only because you're good at them, no other reason.

Second, You think it's an arcade racer. Others think it's science fiction like, simulation of what could be racing in the future.

And speaking of that, "ships computers that reward pilots with free turbos for crowd-pleasing theatrics" ?

Plausible that ?

Flashback Jack

14th October 2008, 04:40 PM

First, if you think that people don't like barrell rolls only because they're not good at them, this only show your argument.

If you're against barrel rolls, offer your argument as to why, and convince me it doesn't boil down to ability one way or the other.

I could take a sampling of players who have zero difficulty executing barrel rolls and ask them what beef, if any, they have with them. Probably little to none if they speak relatively. That's what this argument is about: relative experience, relative ability (by whatever consequence -- preference for analog included) and not the object of game or game mechanics.

I have been on both sides of the barrel roll argument. When I started playing Pure, I started on the analog nub and quickly converted to the direction pad. Rest assured that I slaved for months attempting to find a perfect method for executing them -- I broke no less than three PSP direction pads in the process. Through experience, I know the hardship of not being able to execute a barrel roll, but I also recognize one thing -- the game isn't to blame, as easy as it is to level the accusation at it. At this very moment I'm going through a smaller version of that process with HD because the Sixaxxis controller is demonically stiff. The last thing I wish to do is write off the whole idea of barrel rolls because my controller kicks my ass.

I've said it before, but barrel rolls are not the problem.

And speaking of that, "ships computers that reward pilots with free turbos for crowd-pleasing theatrics" ?

Plausible that ?

Within the context of fantasy:

Originally Posted by FX300 League Rules and Regulations
Section 12.1 - "Flair" rewards
As per the decision of the FX300 proposal meeting #12783 (Discussions on raising attendance #57 - Possible methods of rewarding pilots for crowd-pleasing actions) any pilot successfully executing arial acrobatics while being the only craft in a 255m stretch of track (with at least 85m clear in either direction) will be rewarded by the onboard weapon system with a standard "turbo" upon succesfully landing said stunt.
Addendum A: Due to this benefit not being powered by the standard weapon activation system (which is seperate from the flair reward monitoring system)a seperate power source was required and the shield energy system was used.

- F

Rapier Racer

14th October 2008, 05:17 PM

...and when it works it's really difficult to mantain ship direction...They take away from piloting skill.

No one else found that statement ironic?

After careful consideration I think I'd rather not have any boost system, look at Fort Gale black thats three barrel rolls in a row on that stupid long corner I have no choice but to execute if I want any chance of winning against another good player and that is just far to big a drain on shields.

HD doesn't seem so bad I'm not sure if theres any place to execute 3 BRs in a row since I don't particular care to go looking for the spots. I'd be aiming to kill anyone I notice pulling off two or more in quick succession what a huge chunk of sheild that drains, come to daddy.

They have no sense in a logical way. How can a ship accelerate doing them ?

I've said this once and I'll say it again, how does a floating ship flying over a glowing square in the ground and then receiving a weapon for doing so make any logical sense? How does a Quake make logical sense? Speed pads? Oh look a big glowing arrow that somehow pushes you forward..

love9sick

14th October 2008, 05:29 PM

I don't like BRs. It adds a tactic to the race that I don't like. It should be about cutting corners and taking speed pads...not trying to find any form of elevation just for some boost.

Flashback Jack

14th October 2008, 05:47 PM

HD doesn't seem so bad I'm not sure if theres any place to execute 3 BRs in a row..

Anulpha Pass, pretty much. At least a few people demonstrated it in various Youtube videos while showing techniques for beating the Zico trophy.

You can also barrel roll three times on Ubermall if you're lucky. Twice on the bump, land and hop the chicane, barrel roll once more.

I don't like BRs. It adds a tactic to the race that I don't like. It should be about cutting corners and taking speed pads...not trying to find any form of elevation just for some boost.

The ultimate lap includes a combination of barrel rolls and perfect lines in addition to hitting as much speed pads as possible -- in most cases, no one element can be neglected if a person expects to clinch a world record.

- F

xEik

14th October 2008, 07:38 PM

I wish you would stop confronting people who don't like barrel rolls.
It's getting old already. Some people will like them and some won't. Nobody argues that it takes skill to pull them. It's just that some people think that they are a chore and therefore don't add to the fun (the reason why most people play games is having fun, not having a world record).

infoxicated

14th October 2008, 08:14 PM

If you're against barrel rolls, offer your argument as to why, and convince me it doesn't boil down to ability one way or the other.
You know what?

I am sick of your ****.

You are seriously ****ing full of yourself - I dont think we've ever had anyone so pompous on this board. I actually cannot believe that you could be so far up your own asshole that you are suggesting the reason people don't like barrel rolls is because they cant do them.

Because you can do them.

Because you're great.

SO YOU KEEP ****ING TELLING US.

I could waste the time pointing out all the wrong in your self congratulatory, willy waving festival of self love.

Or I could just ban you for being so ****ing great.

Hmmm. Tough one.

...yes yes - I know what you're thinking - I'm picking on you because I don't like barrel rolls.

But dont think that.

It's really because you're a wanker and I've had enough of the way you speak to people on here.

leungbok

14th October 2008, 08:37 PM

eLhabib

14th October 2008, 08:48 PM

Yes, I do play TTs and Speed Laps for records. Breaking records is the fun in TTs and Speed Laps, innit? Non-record-related fun is drawn from Single Races and Online, for me.

And yes, I think BRs take away from the TT fun. Not because I can't pull them off (I'm getting to a point where it works pretty consistently), but rather because I don't like the different line I need to take for a BR. It just doesn't feel like a racing line. More like slopestyle...

love9sick

14th October 2008, 08:58 PM

I make part of the people (a few it seems) who thinks br add fun to the game.
It's cool to have several ways of playing wipeout. Searching for nice trajectories without br, searching for nice trajectories with br. I like also sideshifting, it another move available to create his own way of racing. What i don't understand is that people are blaming br because it makes the TT and sl less interesting. So, they play for breaking records and not for fun. There was a big disagreement about "jay's mod" on psp. Some were saying it was cheating. Ok, and now with HD, no unfair "speed mod" or cfw. So, br are the new excuse ?:rolleyes:

It would be great to just play the way I want to with out BRs but aside from wanting to put down great lap times you can't get past many later events with anything higher than a bronze medal unless you do use them, and that is a single player, so essentially the game FORCES you to use them. I don't hate them, I just think they are pointless as the game is challenging and interesting enough with out them. I always took wipeout as the more series futuristic racer, the mature one, the one that could almost be called a simulator of future racing...but BRs almost kill that with their cheesy top gun super swirl in the air look.

Anyways, wipeout games always were very competitive on the leader boards...that is nothing new. It adds more life to them..other wise what else are you gonna do after about 10 hours of gameplay? play for nothing? I play to beat the records once I finish the single player.

captain howdy

14th October 2008, 11:10 PM

I voted yes. They're fine the way they are.

JABBERJAW

15th October 2008, 01:16 AM

As the game is right now, I would leave them in personally, simply because of the speed of the game. Without them, and the game still moving AS IS, I would think would be too slow for pure pulse, or HD. However, if it were possible, I would like it replaced with a turbo button like Wo3, BUT still including all the weapons the game still currently has, including turbos. This way, YOU are the one to choose when and if you are going to risk your energy at any point on the track, rather than having to wait to perform a barrel roll on the slightest bump, then having to perform a street fighter move. I would hate this feature in an older version of the game, but in the 3 newer ones, it works, but with the other possibilities ranging from a turbo button, to just a faster speed class, I would rather have that. (IF that made any sense :) ). regardless of what alot of people think about the barrel roll, it is highly unlikely that this feature will be removed due to all of the high praise from the media for a future version of the game anyway, so it's either play this, or go back to XL. This is not a bash on HD for me though, I really like it, and wish I had more time to play. The physics for me are a huge improvement over pulse and pure with better pitch control than both, and getting some of the bouncy movement back that pulse did away with.

Sideshift for me, is a very serious change in the game however. I found myself going around a gradual turn without the need for airbraking at all, but found making the turn to be faster using the sideshift, which almost acts like a mini turbo when used correctly. I think it should be faster to make the turn with regular steering under this scenario. And the sideshift just makes the game somewhat choppy on the turns, kinda like fzero (yes I know there is no swearing here).

Lance

15th October 2008, 02:26 AM

Re: FZero feel and handling: ^*%$#*%%***********************^
:g

JABBERJAW

15th October 2008, 04:32 AM

true, very true, just comparing the sideshift manouever, nothing else

Ricanebleu

15th October 2008, 09:52 AM

I remember the first time I made, by chance, a BR in Pure. I was really thrilled. I didn’t know what it was or how I did it but somehow I felt that I’m flying :) . I never felt like that since w’o’’3 at the big jump in P-mar Project.
I like them just for the visual aspect and the way it makes me feel.
On the other hand, if I’m required to do them as a condition for winning, especially that in Pulse and Pure they appear randomly after the input of the code, I begin to dislike the idea of BR. I never coped with the feeling of futility in a game where U just can’t help it because the game would not let U.
I found even in HD some times when the BR did not activate in spite of the code input.
I do think however that if, by doing one or a double or a triple BR U would be forced to take a different racing line, away from the speed pads, and by not doing them U could follow a line equipped with enough speed pads that in the end would bring U to relative equal terms with someone who does BRs, things could get fun. Maybe IT could settle this dispute: do BR if U want but U don’t get speed pads, or race a perfect race line, like in w’o’’3, but u don’t get to have the opportunity to do BR. )
Also, about the side shifts, I wonder if I don’t overdo them, but then again if I race against an Assegai, with far more maneuverability then my Triakis I just have to if I want to stay ahead. The thing is that in the end I found my racing stile changed so much that now I do side shifts almost at every corner even if I don’t need it. It has become second nature and I’m not sure if this is really a good thing. I wonder if without side shift I would have had a chance with the poor handling of Triakis which I find to be poorer in Pulse then in Pure and poorer in HD then in Pulse. But maybe that’s just me.
As for how it is possible that a BR can give U a boost, I always imagined that in fact the pilot is the one that decides to transfer some of the energy from the shields to thrusters, and that the barrel roll is only an evasive maneuver to avoid any “incoming” while he concentrates on the transfer. I like this idea a lot better than the “Section 12.1 - "Flair" rewards”.

kanar

15th October 2008, 11:46 AM

Hi guys,

Well, I just wanted to say, -always in the context of the fantasy thing, if I may- I felt a great disturbance in the force here yesterday. I really don't know what to think about that. Maybe/for sure I'm wrong because I'm just a French guy who doesn't understand well english, or it's because I'm just a rookie here, or because I care too much about this franchise & the talented wipers. To stay on topic, I hate BR accumulation, but I still love time trial or speed lap sessions, with good music in my ears. I love to share my racing experience with you guys here. Because if skilled wipers share their "knowledge" of the game, it's really more fun for everyone. Behind the so-called competition for "records", there's emulation, sharing experience, & make friendship with other wipers.
I must add I feel kind of scared to post that right now.

Amon

15th October 2008, 12:30 PM

If you're against barrel rolls, offer your argument as to why, and convince me it doesn't boil down to ability one way or the other.

This could be a long story but i'll try. First im not saying, of course, than barrell rolls are bad for everyone who plays the game. I say that they are bad for me.

I started palying WO with the first, the pinnacle of the series was Wipeout XL / 2097 with negcom, I've always liked wipeout because, to me, it was a racing francise, an exercise of imagination that tried to give the players the equivalent of F1 in the future. They created sponsors, enterprises, they build cities around these tracks. To me it looks like a realistic effort, not a fantasy one.

So in that contest, to me, barrell rolls seem to come from another world. From Fzero or mario kart. Both are great games, but not of them feels like a simulation of the future like wipeout is to me. I can accept the speed pads. You pass on them, energy is transferred from them to the ship, boost. I can accept less weapons, in the form they are today. They are clearly a try from the organization to make the show more "thrill". Think about them as the future's Nascar yellow flag in the last lap if you want. All weapons are aboard of the ship, but become activated only when passing on the pads.

I would prefer a different concept in weapons. I would prefer weapons that slow down and don't destroy ships, speaking of realism. But, however, as they are now, i feel that barrell rolls are much more out of context that them.

These are my major gripes about barrell rolls in the game.

Speaking of the execution, it's not that i can't do them ( watch my stats for Chengou Project rapier class, the only track where i had the time to work a little on times if you dont believe me )

It's that for me, the process you make to do good laps in wipeout is not searching places in the tracks were i can take enough air to execute them. This sound "alien" to me when i think of wipeout.

To me going fast in this game is a question of finding the best line, understand where and how using aerobrakes, things like that you know ?

eLhabib

15th October 2008, 12:35 PM

100% on the agree-o-meter :D

kanar

15th October 2008, 12:36 PM

Amon,

I'm sure Flash would be glad to discuss these really good arguments with you, but he was banned.

Amon

15th October 2008, 01:25 PM

Did not know, sorry about that .

Well it looks there are lots that find barrell rolls ok in wipeout, so maybe we will have others to discuss the argument no ?

Asayyeah

15th October 2008, 02:09 PM

It's a pretty sensible subject like few others in the past and guys may react really in a harsh way if this continue too far beyond, so maybe we shall play a bit to relax our nerves.

Amon

15th October 2008, 02:49 PM

So it's better not to thalk about it ... mhhh.

Ok :D

eLhabib

15th October 2008, 03:35 PM

Ts, of course you can talk about it! The only thing that was upsetting was Flashback Jack's argumentation, not the issue itself. I would very much like to know what the top pilots, and the very casual players as well, think about BRs.

Asayyeah

15th October 2008, 04:24 PM

Like i said before, i am not against BRs in general, it gives a new 'impulsion' to the Wipeout games and that is my point shared by myself ( lol sometimes i am against (contra) my own points but it's another story :D)

That could be cool to reduce number of BRs possible per lap ( the 'too much more ' is the ennemy of the good sometimes) in the future.

Lance

15th October 2008, 05:35 PM

Kanar, the reason FJ was banned was because of his continual insulting of other players. He claimed that the only reason some people disliked barrel rolls is that they can't do them, that they don't have the skills, that he is better than they are. It is quite clear that there are many reasons to dislike the barrel rolls, and also quite clear that there are highly skilled pilots who don't like them. FJ's comments on this issue followed in the same pattern he has shown since he joined the forum, wherein he brags about his own skills and, either by direct statement or by implication, claims that other people are lesser beings than he is. That sort of thing is both annoying and disrespectful to the other forum members.

There are many kinds of excellence, but the possession of one kind out of many does not make a person a supreme example of humanity.

mdhay

15th October 2008, 06:23 PM

Yeah, Lance, he was bragging and everything else, and I can sympathise with those He's belittled.

Hell, I am stuck up at times, and I know about it, but I can control myself and am trying to stop.

xEik

15th October 2008, 07:05 PM

It's a pretty sensible subject like few others in the past and guys may react really in a harsh way if this continue too far beyond, so maybe we shall play a bit to relax our nerves.
I think you mean sensitive (delicate) instead of sensible (judicious). Direct French translation? ;)

So it's better not to thalk about it ... mhhh.

Ok :D
You can talk about almost anything in WipeoutZone. There are a few exceptions like CFW but barrel rolls are not one. Having strong and controversial opinions is not a problem. Having a belittling attitude towards other wipers is a problem.
If you have the right attitude, you could even argue that Sony should abandon the WO franchise. Although I doubt you would find many people agreeing with you here. ;)

JABBERJAW

16th October 2008, 01:32 AM

Not sure about this, but it seems that the game gives you a better choice now to either battle, or try to get away from the pack (with risks) What do you guys think? girls?

Also, does weapon absorb give you more energy than it did in pulse? I thought it did, but am not sure, I know more energy comes off when performing one, and am wondering if they are tied together

Amon

16th October 2008, 09:58 AM

Speaking of races, i find energy management well done. Rolls energy consumption, quantity of energy given back absorbing weapons are done right. As you say they oblige the player to choose his race strtegy. It's very well done and imo adds a lot to races.

Only thing to add ( and if i remember well somebody else already noted this ) is that races are too short, there is simply no time to make up for mistakes or simply being hit by rockets at race start, when the pack is close.

I think that races should be the double of laps they are now. Or we should have the chance to set the number of laps manually ( that would be better )

lunar

16th October 2008, 10:18 AM

Yes I definitely agree with the points about BRs in the above two posts. I would have preferred to see some energy management in TT aswell, like Pure had, as this would have made you be very careful about where you did your BRs, and most of the race would have been "straight" driving, but still requiring the odd Ninja moment, rather than the doing BRs the whole way. A Sebenco Climb Phantom TT could require about 25-30 Barrel Rolls, I think! Crazy. Also with limited BRs you have to fly cleanly, save your shield energy and not hit the walls, which is rewarding the player for driving well.

Maybe Speed Lap could have been kept for the BR-fests and TT kept tactical, but that`s only my preference. Online and SR are tactical with BRs, which is great and with BR combos seemingly gone aswell I think HD does hit a decent enough compromise for me. :)

eLhabib

16th October 2008, 10:59 AM

Talking about energy management: I agree that it's very well balanced in HD, one thing does piss me off though. Scraping other ships, trading paint, takes away A LOT of energy. If I don't manage to break away from the pack, even in a no-weapons race, I sometimes lose more than a third of my shields just from being pushed around by other ships (no wall contact included!) - that is just crazy! If you grind along with another ships for 3 seconds, it wil take away as much energy as a missile hit! (at least from an Assegai, that is - can't say about the other ships)

JABBERJAW

16th October 2008, 11:47 AM

I didnot realize that about scraping other ships, i wish that were minimal energy loss, if any at all

Axel

16th October 2008, 03:50 PM

Whats really annoying is when your flying the Assagai, the ship is so light that any slight touch will just throw off. It's increasingly happening to me online where people are purposely pushing me off.

Meh, I kinda like the extra challenge, but it can really piss me off, especially after getting hit by a rocket and quake etc. The shield on that ship is way too low :)

Amon

16th October 2008, 04:35 PM

I've noticed that problem on Assegai too.

For me, one more reason to pilot tanks like Quirex in close races. To me this is a positive thing, it widens the ship choices for races.

G'Kyl

16th October 2008, 06:26 PM

Not sure about this, but it seems that the game gives you a better choice now to either battle, or try to get away from the pack (with risks) What do you guys think? girls?

From my experience, HD usually doesn't let you win races if you don't make extensive use of weapons. Doing perfect laps, getting all BRs and speed pads - and still being last is a bad thing to happen. :| I've always liked WO weapons - they look cool and are somewhat extraordinary. But when it comes down to racing I prefer, well, racing. HD forces me to go for wepaon instead of speed pads - which doesn't only forcibly change my way of flying, but als doesn't feel right. Well, for me, anyway. ;)

Ben

drenath

17th October 2008, 12:41 AM

I voted no. I feel they are gimmicky and cheapen the experience. It's not a "racing" maneuver.

My suggestion would be that BR's 'reward' is a partial restoration of lost shield energy. Like a free e-pak. That way there is some situational benefit to doing BR's, but they are not required to run a faster time.

No to hyperthrust also.

eLhabib

17th October 2008, 11:07 AM

Great idea! Full approval :+

Amon

17th October 2008, 11:56 AM

. That way there is some situational benefit to doing BR's, but they are not required to run a faster time.

So much simple that nobody thought about it before, great idea :+

MadMax1978

19th October 2008, 12:24 AM

ok heres me tow cents on BR's

I think that it's ok to have them in the game as a fun factor so no speed boost.

or if the speed boosts is to be kept

If you do a BR at anytime during a race it will void your time for entry on the Global leader board.

Lance

19th October 2008, 04:25 AM

That makes at least three good ways I've read about to keep barrel rolls in the game, but to avoid their being a bad influence on the racing. :+

klax75

19th October 2008, 06:33 AM

Like other have said what if Barrels do nothing for speed of your craft when doing one it is more for "Free Style" points. Where it's not meant for speed boost.

At the end of your race you have your free style rating if you choose to do it or not.

So for example on your screen if you did 3 barrel rolls in one lap you get "Show Off!" and everyone else gets the message at the end of the race.

Medusa

20th October 2008, 04:33 PM

Barrel rolls for energy!:+:clap

Man, that is the greatest idea ever for barrel rolls. I really hope someone, anyone from SL sees this and considers it for the next game!

captain howdy

20th October 2008, 07:32 PM

I really don't see the problem with the barrel rolls the way they're set up now. The tradeoff of energy for a speed boost is a great gameplay mechanic. You can only pull them off in midair, and if you do it too late and your ship doesn't complete its rotation before it hits the ground, you still lose energy without getting the boost. Because of this, I think barrel rolls are an excellent, tactical maneuver for players who wish to add it to their racing style. If some people are using them to great effect, then good for them. Some people are also good at side shifting during races. This has a less obvious impact on how well someone races, but certain people, like myself, don't like bothering with side shifting because it can be a little iffy to pull off (and sometimes when I do, I end up slamming into a wall). And when you see someone winning a race for pulling off a side shift at a key turn, you could say it makes me a worse racer for almost never using them.

The fact is, the way things are set up now, both barrel rolls and side shifting are advanced techniques that can help a good player perform better, if he or she knows how to use them to their advantage. Using them both requires a bit of extra skill and thought, so why shouldn't they reward the player with a speed burst or a cleaner racing line?

And, no, not everyone is that good with barrel rolls and yes, depending on who you're playing with, it's possible to win races without using them. But if you're a racer who can use them but just doesn't want to take advantage of them, well, that's kind of your own problem. Like me and my hesitancy to incorporate side shifting into my racing.

EDIT: And barrel rolls for energy? The whole point of barrel rolls is risk-reward. There would be no reason to discourage barrelling if the only effect from doing it was a reward. Racers who tend to barrel roll often would basically just be guaranteed that their ship never explodes. And to be good with barrelling, you need to be good with energy management anyway. It would kind of defeat the purpose of the technique... rather than making good players better, it would just make everyone who bothered trying them better.

drenath

20th October 2008, 08:29 PM

BR's for energy is a compromise. It truly makes them 'optional', but beneficial nonetheless.

There are still downsides to BR's even without energy cost- temporary interference with steering and disorientation in the cockpit view are the two biggies.

What do you guys think about using BR's to evade certain weapons? (missiles/rockets, leach beam, cannon fire, etc)

eLhabib

20th October 2008, 08:32 PM

drenath

20th October 2008, 08:41 PM

Weapon pickup works too. I find it so irritating when I can't get pickups because I'm right on someone's tail and they take them all!!

Hmm, BR's in Zone mode for shield energy could be pretty sick!

lunar

20th October 2008, 09:55 PM

Barrel rolls are just old, there`s no way to put any gloss on them. If they come up in another new Wipeout it will start to look very tired. They got them right in Pure (regarding the effects they have on ship energy and gameplay), wrong in Pulse and a bit less wrong in HD, imnsfho :D But they`ve been in the last 3 games, which is fine and that`s the facts of it, I`ll get on with it and play the game. I`d just hope that if there`s another wipeout we could move on and SL come up with a new gameplay concept, either that or introduce backflips in exchange for autopilots. :)

Paradoxx

20th October 2008, 10:12 PM

I hate that !

Why does it use some energy ?
Why does it make the ship accelerate ?

And about the "freestyle points" idea... just forget ! If you want freestyle points in a game, play to SSX or a tektonik game. Wipeout is about speed, pilot ability, and weapons in a certain limit.

What else for the future ? slide on the walls and the barriers like in a skate board game ?

klax75

20th October 2008, 11:06 PM

bakkufu

20th October 2008, 11:13 PM

I find it so irritating when I can't get pickups because I'm right on someone's tail and they take them all!!

Even worse when you are leading and get a quake, or right at the back and get mines... thats always been annoying lol

captain howdy

21st October 2008, 05:17 AM

You missed my point, the free style thing would mean nothing. The points would mean nothing. Just bragging rights if someone did it. It wouldn't effect the races at all. No benefit in lap times from a barrel roll. Barrel rolls are like a cheap gimmick to me, to make it like a X-Game event. It is the one feature that really turns me off on WipeOut. And I love the series, if you want to do any kind of record it's endless spamming barrel rolls.
And I think you missed Paradoxx's point. Leaving in the barrel rolls but replacing their gameplay function with superficial "freestyle points" would make them more of a cheap extreme sports gimmick than you claim they already are.

As I tried to say earlier, barrel rolling as a gameplay function is hardly a gimmick -- it's a technique that requires driving skill and energy management (someone enforced the point earlier that you also have to deal with disorientation when coming out of a barrel). It seems to me you have a problem with the actual animation; the thought of one of these ships doing a side roll in midair is too flashy for you. Or maybe some of you just don't like the logic... why would spinning around and landing upright magically grant you a speed boost?

Well, how does the anti-gravity technology in this future world work, precisely? Would you feel better if someone at Studio Liverpool came up with a technical canon reason why barrel rolling exists as a viable anti-gravity racing technique?

I can understand not wanting to do them to complete speed laps and time trials. Hey, I beat Zico, and it was no picnic. In my experience, having to pull off a set number of barrel rolls in a single lap to get a good record is difficult, frustrating, and ultimately not much fun. But aside from Zico and a few awfully stressing time trial gold medals in campaign mode, you do not need to use barrel rolls to complete the game. You do need to use them to get great online records. And they'll probably help your chances of winning when you're racing online. If that bothers you, I don't know what to tell you. Great racers will get good records. Great racers who can expertly utilize barrel rolls will get better records. That's just how it is.

Asayyeah

21st October 2008, 07:58 AM

Shame, i don't have time or enough vocabularies to explain my point of view about BR again, but captain Howdy you resumed my mind.
I am with you !

Nadia Elenova

21st October 2008, 08:35 AM

Well said captain! :+ I've been introducing lately friends and family into wipeout and I realiced that br's are not a cheap trick for newcomers to get good times, they need practice to be done properly. I would say that some people that answered "no" use them much more often and better than I do. :P

klax75

21st October 2008, 08:43 AM

And I think you missed Paradoxx's point. Leaving in the barrel rolls but replacing their gameplay function with superficial "freestyle points" would make them more of a cheap extreme sports gimmick than you claim they already are.

As I tried to say earlier, barrel rolling as a gameplay function is hardly a gimmick -- it's a technique that requires driving skill and energy management (someone enforced the point earlier that you also have to deal with disorientation when coming out of a barrel). It seems to me you have a problem with the actual animation; the thought of one of these ships doing a side roll in midair is too flashy for you. Or maybe some of you just don't like the logic... why would spinning around and landing upright magically grant you a speed boost?

Well, how does the anti-gravity technology in this future world work, precisely? Would you feel better if someone at Studio Liverpool came up with a technical canon reason why barrel rolling exists as a viable anti-gravity racing technique?

I can understand not wanting to do them to complete speed laps and time trials. Hey, I beat Zico, and it was no picnic. In my experience, having to pull off a set number of barrel rolls in a single lap to get a good record is difficult, frustrating, and ultimately not much fun. But aside from Zico and a few awfully stressing time trial gold medals in campaign mode, you do not need to use barrel rolls to complete the game. You do need to use them to get great online records. And they'll probably help your chances of winning when you're racing online. If that bothers you, I don't know what to tell you. Great racers will get good records. Great racers who can expertly utilize barrel rolls will get better records. That's just how it is.

I understand what you are saying, and what Paradoxx is too. To me it just makes WipeOut feel extremely cheap. It's no different then in the game Pure I do a trick to get energy to be able to use Boost.

For me it just feels like SL is doing what all races games are doing, to do a trick move, or a combo move to give a boost. I have said before, fine if there are BR SL love them. Then why can't we map the controls to what is comfortable to the players. Like the L2, R2, L2 idea. This would be optional to your playing style.

allstyles

21st October 2008, 04:01 PM

That L2. R2, L2 move is not logical,....

when that was the barrel roll move, the zone trophy with only airbrakes would be impossible,...
also steering in some corners would come down to a barrel chaos....

eLhabib

21st October 2008, 04:27 PM

Why would it? A BR can only be triggered while in the air anyway...

rejj

21st October 2008, 05:40 PM

I understand that they take skill to perform and land, especially at speed. I simply don't like them. I do not enjoy the modification to gameplay that BRs introduced, and I don't particularly think they are a good gameplay mechanic.

That being said - I will still do them to get good times, however. They're in Wipeout HD, and we have to play the game we've got.

I just personally wish that they weren't in the game.

kanar

22nd October 2008, 01:15 PM

yes rejj, the more I play SL, the more I'm thinking like you. A good anulpha reverse lap = 2 brs. A perfect one : 3 brs. My thumb hurts a lot. I think this br need is too much, maybe worse than pulse. 5 brs a lap for some tracks? that's insane hardcore gamer stuff, more than ever. But I'll give it a try.

eLhabib

22nd October 2008, 02:35 PM

I can see 2 BRs on Anulpha reverse (one boosting out of the tunnel, one after the hill before the last long right), but THREE?! Where?

OBH

22nd October 2008, 02:47 PM

The bump before the last 3 boosts.
Can one at the end of the 1st long right hander too.

Asayyeah

22nd October 2008, 03:08 PM

yeah there's 3 BRs and it's a different sheme from what you are using Martin atm ( i did 20.99 with the technique you explained and there's like 2 tenths to cut in order to get the perfect laptime with those 2 BRs.)
But we can race faster with 3 BRs : get the normal route and when you approach the 1st difficultie ( hard right curve ) you boost, BR and land before the begining of that narrow section.then at the top of the narrow section ( where's there's 2 BPads in semi diagonale) you hit one of them ( mostly the right one) up your nose and BR get the 3 BP in diagonal and then the last BR and be as close as possible of the inside right on the last curve.
The boost and BR is really tricky to use, i constantly hit walls and walls but got a promising 21.05 with that technique.

Ill copy and paste that into the tips for HD ;)

Paradoxx

23rd October 2008, 07:42 AM

lunar

23rd October 2008, 08:42 AM

same here, rejj`s post sums up my feelings better than my 357 previous posts about BRs ;)

eLhabib

23rd October 2008, 01:10 PM

Same here. And I must admit that there is some satisfaction in speeding down the last part of a race, head to head with a competitor, and then boosting ahead and winning because I managed to pull off a BR and he didn't. At the same moment, the frustration on the other side is unnessecary...

Sideshow

23rd October 2008, 03:27 PM

I quite like BRs, but think they may be over-used (on a times per race basis). Perhaps better balancing by making them cost more shields? The activation method is too unreliable though, I'd much rather have it bound to buttons than the analog stick (switching to dpad doesn't count). I'd say overload the airbrakes, but I hate that SS overloads them already; I've lost count of the number of times I've SS'ed by mistake while making minor turn corrections. Having L1 and R1 purely as 'stunt' keys - tap L1 to SS left, R1 to SS right would be good, but people probably quite like them as rear view and comms... Looking for controls not used yet we find... the right analog stick! Tap it Left or Right while on the track for SS and push it L or R in the air to BR. Might take a bit of getting used to, taking your thumb off the throttle, but I think it'd work pretty good - a lot like dodging in God of War.

Anyway, an option for hosts to disable BRs in their multiplayer games would be good, as would an option in the control setup to disable SS entirely (I'd much rather not be able to SS at all than keep screwing up corners due to accidental activation).

EDIT: alternative to Right Analog: use the 6axis - a violent jerk of controller left or right - to activate SS and BR.

klax75

24th October 2008, 05:22 AM

EDIT: alternative to Right Analog: use the 6axis - a violent jerk of controller left or right - to activate SS and BR.

Please don't make them Sixaxis. Being disabled in real life, in games I have to turn off sixaxis since I physically cannot do it. I have very small hands (and body to match lol) It's very frustrating now days that so many games have body movement in them. One of the reasons I play video games is to be able to do things I can't do in real life. Now over time I won't be able to do those either. I know I am minority on this too. Like the Wii I can't do the movements so I really can't play it. I do agree it is fun watching other people do it though. :D

I'd really like to be able to set barrel rolls to something else, my hands are stretched enough when using the stick.

I know this is simple and people may hate it, what about Hitting R1 then left or right depending on what kind of barrel roll, to do a Barrel roll. If you do it quick then you release R1 you could still steer your ship. And this would give the possibility to do multiple barrel rolls for more speed in one jump.

I would prefer they were gone all together. It just seems like down the road they could add flips and flat spins too. :(

JABBERJAW

25th October 2008, 01:19 AM

I don't get the more damage for barrel roll thing. Here is my thinking on this. Let's make more energy come off for a barrel rolls so it limits them. This will cause them to become "not fun" to use at all. I think that is why there were put into the game to begin with, and the constant worry of using up all of your energy would make it a complete chore to use them. I think the energy taken off is pretty good on HD.

That being said, unless the game is sped up, I would like to leave them in just for that reason.

That being said, if the game can be sped up, remove them, they are a nuisance since they still do not work all of the time, or have a delayed reaction, well after the button presses, and the hand has been removed from the pad, it then works except you do not make the roll because it activated way too late wasting a bunch of your energy, and not even getting a speed boost. Yes, I can force it to work most of the time even under this circumstance, but it is a pain.

I still find barrel rolls not to be even near the problem of sideshift though, those freaking things take the feel of wipeout completely away. at least barrel rolls don't mess with the physics of the ship

judus

25th October 2008, 08:10 PM

I think they work a little better than they did in pure and pulse, but its a pain that the controls for activation has not been revised since its debut (like move them to another button as mentioned previously) . Sometimes I get the impression that it expects a full press on the D-pad rather than a nudge. Problem is, the faster I go, the less I tend to press the button fully. If it is going to return in future wipeout games, it needs to be mapped to another button rather than interrupt the craft control.

JABBERJAW

26th October 2008, 01:24 AM

I agree, I would be happier with a barrel roll button, I don't like the interference with the steering as well. Either that or a turbo button like wo3

crawdad62

27th October 2008, 04:53 PM

Maybe it's just me or maybe I just don't notice it otherwise but if I play online I can do a couple of BR's and I get the low power warning. I don't think I've taken that many hits or hit the wall that much (no more than I would while offline). Do BR's cause a greater reduction in power online? I wouldn't think so.

I end up absorbing weapons constantly just to power up. For me it's pretty much a last lap/last minute decision to BR while online.

H3avyM3tal

18th December 2008, 01:10 PM

Sorry for bumping, but;

Having so many ways to race is a great change to your normal racers. It adds many different aspects to play style and thinking. Having br is a good example of when you make choices in racing. It adds a dimention of carful and smart play as opposed to just skill in controlling.

I think in wipeout, being good means knowing to use the game to it's fullest. Using all tools available. And in this game, the more tools you have, the more you need to invest inorder to become good. I understand both sides, but I favor the side that favors BR, because ultimatly, I like an involving racer alot more than a breeze cruize (like RR, which I love btw).

Besided, being able to perform is all about skill, and I see alot of people online with skill that I am striving for. I am good with br, such tools improve your skills :)

Axel

19th December 2008, 02:05 PM

I will never come to like BR. Find it redicolous and annoying to pull off (stick user). But your right about having to use the damn thing. I never use it in multiplayer cause if I win, it feels great.

I didn't mind the turbo boost from WO3. The only problem is that we can easily absorb weapons. So for the method to work, we will need to bring back pit lanes (I miss these :P).

Meh I really don't know how they will replace BR.

djKyoto

19th December 2008, 02:26 PM

If it was just a button, it would be easier, but yeah I still think barrel rolls are a great addition. I approve of thee.

blackwiggle

20th December 2008, 11:51 PM

I don't mind a combination of button pressing,it's just the fact that BR's are linked to the steering I find REALLY annoying.
Unintentional BR'ing at Phantom speed because of quick controller input
The amount of times in last nights Anzac V's France Avalon races that I went to quickly adjust my steering and ended up BR'ing into a wall or off the track drove me nuts.
If it didn't BR it attempted to and I lost shield energy with no boost,so when I did want to BR I couldn't for fear of blowing up.[a few previous contacts with other craft and your shields shot anyway]
Or unintentional BR's with sod all shield energy eliminating myself.
This problem seems to be more due to me using the D-Pad and that one of my controllers seems to be more sensitive to this that the other.
Either way it's a PITA
I envy you guys that can use the sticks,where I don't think you would suffer this to the same degree,I just can't get to grips with them.

Greenix

18th February 2009, 05:09 PM

Hmm. I'm undecided on barrel rolls. WipEout HD is the only game of the series I have played that uses BRs so to me using them was part of a learning curve rather then a noticeable change in gameplay mechanics.

On the one hand I feel they do add to the racing experience online - countless times I have had 25-30 energy and I'm coming up to the finish line with another racer slightly infront. I know I don't stand a chance of getting a weapon and barrel rolling will take me down to easy-elimination health. 9 times out of 10 I will take the risk and do that last barrel roll. Then the moment of truth comes, did the other racer have a missile or quake etc? *Contender Eliminated* Damn it! And if they didn't I feel that the risk I took was worth the reward and leaves a feeling of 'Phew'! as I just snatch a higher position.

However, BRs on the other hand are a little unbalanced in a sense when you have higher energy. I find myself doing BR and then instantly absorbing a weapon I dont need. End result is; I've traded a weapon I dont need, such as a cannon when there is nobody infront to unload at, for a boost and lost barely any energy.

And leading on from this idea is the system that means players ahead of the pack just get further ahead without worrying about losing energy as they almost always have a free weapon pad available. Whereas those in the pack are fighting to get a weapon and are already losing health.

Its also cost me 2 new ps3 controllers since HD was released on the store :bomb

I think for me it's a case of 'the apple never falls far from the tree' and I've, metaphorically speaking, grown up with barrel rolls and I dont want to see them go because it's what im used to.

As a way of keeping them in the game, maintaining the reward they give and keeping the flow of the game, why not make it so that you can only barrel roll when you have a weapon, and that weapon is taken away from you whether the roll is or isn't successful. That way you cant absorb it to regain health instantly after, you lose the normal 15 energy, and it at least slightly cuts the number of rolls someone in first place is able to do. Continually do BRs and you can't absorb the weapons you've picked up and have low energy. Absorb the weapon before hand and you can't do the BR.

As for the BR activation setting I find that, however much it can drive me up the wall sometimes (pun intended), I still prefer it to be the analgoue/d-pad current setup. As a few of you mentioned in this thread earlier, it does require a bit of skill to pull off a barrel roll, not to mention be pointing in the right direction when you land. This is especially when, if you use analogue, your stick stays stuck in the direction you last pointed it in for the roll thanks to too much wipeout making your controler super floppy :D

I think I'll vote yes to BR's but only just, the system needs more work done to it imo.

Alejess

18th February 2009, 11:30 PM

That’s a really well thought out and balanced reply Greenix. And I agree with practically all of it. In particular, the point about being able to barrel roll with impunity when out in front and ahead of the pack is one that had occurred to me: anything which reduces the chances of tight, close racing is something that needs looking at (conversely of course, someone left behind and chasing a pack will benefit in the same way).

I think your compromise solution is extremely elegant. The best part of it is that it would actually add to the strategic aspect of the game. For example, when a pilot picks up a weapon, he/she now has 3 choices (use, absorb or save for BR) rather than 2.

Of course, the ‘solution’ is only relevant for actual racing rather than Time Trials or Single Laps, but I reckon pilots on both sides of the BR controversy would be reasonably happy for something like this to be implemented.

Edit: just remembered that it wouldn't work for 'no weapons' racing either. Still, the basic principle is a good one: make the choice as to whether to barrel roll or not more strategic, but keep them as influential as they are now when used wisely.

Greenix

19th February 2009, 12:25 AM

That's true Alejess. I guess it depends on if you think barrel rolls are an acceptable part of pure line racing. No weapons races, as far as I know, are more a test of a pilot's consistancy and line efficiency - add being able to fly under pressure from a very close opponent. Is a BR more accepted in these types of races? I see them as a big part in time trials and speed laps because to have a top record means you do have to master every aspect of the game and spend a lot of time studying the track etc. I personally see no weapons as a sort of time trial mode. I remember one pilot warning me about no weapon's races with wellington (when I only just started playing WipEout with him) and reffered to them as 'Wellington's Time Trial Mode'. I guess because of this I see BRs as more fitting for no weapon races... and there is the aspect of no weapons to absorb.

Maybe 2 different systems for normal multiplayer races and then no weapons/time trial/speed lap races.

Such a delicate game to try and change without unbalancing other areas.

Cerium

19th February 2009, 02:02 AM

I have to agree almost entirely with Greenix's longer post. BRs are nice and I've no problem with them, but it certainly sucks to be in second place, fighting to not only regain energy but also take the person who's in first (and, thus, taking every weapon pad).

Someone suggested a while ago to just leave weapon pads permanently activated in multiplayer as a solution to the weapon pad lag issue. Such a thing would also fix the "balance issue" BRs have with the person who's out front. Of course, this would also effectively turn most multiplayer races into a sort of eliminator mode -- but from what I've been seeing, I don't think people would care too much about that. :D

Also, how about making it one button? Do we really need a button to change the camera location? How about triangle = barrel roll so I don't have to worry about accidentally doing a barrel roll into a wall or off the track (Sebenco reverse, anyone)?

eLhabib

19th February 2009, 03:41 PM

Greenix, that idea of yours is ACE! If you were only able to do a BR while holding a weapon, this would also eliminate BRs completely from TTs, SLs, and no-weapons races - which in my book is a good thing!

I agree, BRs are good for the extra thrill in close races, playing poker with your own shields to win a race. But in my opinion, they belong only there. In a solo event, man versus track, there is no place for them, as far as I'm concerned.

infoxicated

19th February 2009, 04:04 PM

It's certainly the best band-aid on the barrel roll wound that's been suggested thus far.

Trouble is - by the time something like this appears in the series, will I still care enough about WipEout to pick it up and give it a try? I've certainly regretted wasting my money on WipEout HD - there'd need to be a massive rethink for me to ever play a post-W3SE edition of the game again.

mdhay

16th June 2009, 07:57 PM

Valid points from captain howdy, especially the last bit. Still, I don't like the fact that in order to be competitive in record tables, you have to adjust to barrel rolls - I think that's the major issue everyone here who is contra-BR has with the current system.

How about this: if you do a BR, you get a free weapon pick-up! That way it doesn't force you to use BRs for a quick laptime, but it still gives you an advantage in a race, and you can also choose to take the energy.

How about, you do a BR, and the ship farts? ;):D:D

Seroiusly, I'm not bothered about doing BR's, as I'm confident that the 'Casual Gaming' version of wipEout , the easy one the masses will want to play more, can be obliterated by good old - fasioned weapons off and badass racing lines.:D

XBARNSTERX

16th June 2009, 10:31 PM

Personally i like brs(when they work) so i voted yes. At the end of the day the option to turn them off online is there if you dont, but i have to say i've not seen many of these race types so perhaps the majority of pilots favour them:nod

Avenger2197

17th June 2009, 03:08 AM

Or, the majority of pilots who don't like them, know that putting BR's off is a death sentence for any game they create.;)

I'll use BR's because they are in the game, but if they weren't there I wouldn't miss them. A re-think is in order for the next game though. A "new" speed system that isn't a stunt pulling manuever is definitely needed.

KIGO1987

17th June 2009, 03:20 AM

BRs in Wipeout HD has killed the internal view gameplay. Which i have been experiment a bit, well quite a bit on Moa Therma Forward and Reverse. ****ing awesome view to play Wipeout in. The motion sickness that happens when pulling a BR in HD puts me off quite bad.

Lance

17th June 2009, 03:29 AM

Did I mention that barrel rolls suck? [and I mean that in a negative way ;) ]

blackwiggle

17th June 2009, 07:21 AM

That's why I don't like Sebenco forward ,motion sickness from Cockpit view, which can get pretty bad with the size of my screen
I dread it when that track get selected by a host when racing online.:dizzy

Spece2goin

17th June 2009, 01:19 PM

at least, an option asking the player if he wants to have his internal view twisting or not when rolling would solve this right?

KIGO1987

17th June 2009, 01:43 PM

****, check that out. Split on 73 votes each.

Wipeout is really a game where novelty BRs shouldnt be included. Should be about good cornering skills and good flow.

mic-dk

17th June 2009, 01:45 PM

Well, it ain't split no more... :)
(yes, I don't really like BRs - mostly because I'm crap at them!)

Connavar

17th June 2009, 01:50 PM

KIGO: there are already other racing games doing just that, just take
a Gran Turismo for instance. And if you like pure speed, why not doing some
Zones? (or play online with BR disabled).

Without Barrel Rolls, Wipeout would be very boring, especially in Speed Lap /
Time Trials (because during races there are also weapons).
It's simple, I wouldn't play the game without BR; sometimes someone disables
them in online races and I feel that the game is missing something!

Also finding and executing those BRs is very rewarding (you feel good + you
get a better time!) :)

guillaume

17th June 2009, 01:52 PM

at least, an option asking the player if he wants to have his internal view twisting or not when rolling would solve this right?
That would feel a bit weird, wouldn't it?
I indeed feel that it's too bad that there's a difficulty difference between internal and external view.
Doing a BR in internal view basically makes you lose control for a quick instant. So at the same time it's rewarding to pull one off and not lose your line at a time or location in the track where it's not easy to do so. Makes sense? :)

KIGO1987

17th June 2009, 01:54 PM

Excuting BRs online are real cunty, half the bastards dont work at all.

I was looking at one of Asa internal view races on 2097, it had such good flow, and that to me is Wipeout, and that is what wipeout is all about.

Turning BRs off on a track that is already know where there are jumps and **** every where, where in you mind you must BR there. Thats why i love Moa, a track where its not dominated by ****ing BRs.

silverfoxy

17th June 2009, 02:14 PM

I had a go on the campaign the other day so I could unlock silver skins and just to see how I measured up to before. I found doing BRs to be very hit and miss, and if anything, worse than online. Not being able to do them regularly on the big drop in Chenghou is just daft. Also a lot of the time it would just make the noise and take 15 points off my energy.

The most fun I've had online (except for the English qualification heats) was the Pressure organised races without BRs. When you know they're off, it levels the playing field up a bit and makes you concentrate on lines a lot more. Plus IMO its more exciting when 7 or 8 players are all tightly bunched which, in my experience, doesn't happen that often when they're on.

I appreciate that in TTs and SLs BRs are vital and people are really pushing the boundaries of them. Its not for me for a few reasons - I can't do them often enough :frown:, it hurts my thumb too much to do it :- and I can't get the old BSB trick.

I would like to see more events online where the BRs are turned off.

Spece2goin

17th June 2009, 02:32 PM

well BR failure is another thing...
i noticed that nothing happen before your ship reach the ground, then you got your -15 shield and no boost, no matter how you shake your joystick!

but i really think BRs bring a strategy, especially on multiplayer races, because you have to choose wheter doing a BR or save your shield. Some BRs are hard to do in such circumstances, even if made easily on TT/SL, other racers, and shield managment make them very rewarding.
Also on Moa, or Sol2 at lower classes it's cool to make a successfull BR.

you can avoid someone doing his BR by firing at him just before the jump, that's a bit annoying when it happens to you, but that's why the game is funny too!

lunar

17th June 2009, 07:48 PM

I was looking at one of Asa internal view races on 2097, it had such good flow, and that to me is Wipeout, and that is what wipeout is all about.

Really good point! Can you imagine a BR in one of Asa`s 2097 runs? Or in Wipeout 3 at all? The idea is crazy and absurd and that`s why BR`s don`t belong in Wipeout to me, if it is to have anything of its original qualities.

Okay maybe I`m too much of an old traditionalist. They can add speed, skill and strategy to the "modern" game as shown in videos, record tables and when you have to manage your shield energy online. However, imo, they add another S, which is spam. So they should at least be cut back on.

As said above, when you race with "weapons off" in an online race, so have to be limited in your BRs, the racing is very tight and exciting and the BR use is strategic. Something like this, but with weapons on, could be a good compromise to allow the BR lovers their hunt for the most efficient BRs (and also be more like Wipeout Pure, where SL got BR`s most right :)).

leungbok

17th June 2009, 07:51 PM

chboing

17th June 2009, 10:59 PM

Excuting BRs online are real cunty, half the bastards dont work at all.
[...]
Thats why i love Moa, a track where its not dominated by ****ing BRs.

BR online are working fine here, maybe, just maybe a little bit harder to launch than offline, but still possible.

+ i love moa therma too, but the forward track is dominated but ****ing barrel rolls too, the reverse one is way better on this point, the only BR (forget the one at the start...) that's possible, is really not easy to do in online race, and too risky imho :)

moa therma is great both way though ! love it

sh1kamaru-

18th June 2009, 11:55 AM

>Not being able to do them regularly on the big drop in Chenghou is just daft.

I don't understand why it fails for you I've always managed to do it (I play with analog, not d-pad cause I don't like the DS3 d-pad) but I admit other BRs can fail more often than they should. Anyway this made me love the game just because of the strategy it brings to the game in races.

To Br or not to Br, that is the question ^^

stinkleroy

18th June 2009, 12:24 PM

I started off not liking BR's as, well I love 2097 and love to hunt for good racing lines. But then I got used to them and started to enjoy using them a lot more. Now that the game is broken and attempting a Barrel roll usually strips my shield and puts me off my racing line due to furious amounts of L-R-L action with no eventual outcome...I'm back to disliking them again.

And yes, the big drop off Chengou fwd is a prime example, as is the hill on Ubermall fwd...should be so easy to BR there, but it just isn't anymore. No amount of LRL can help when the game just refuses to co-operate. So you guys who can consistently BR without issue should count yourselves very lucky indeed :)

yeldar2097

18th June 2009, 12:39 PM

mine tend to work in most places if i actively pitch up/down beforehand. as in, if i don't then they won't work...
this works everywhere except seb rev (unfortunate since it's one of my faves) - can only get 1-2 BRs/lap there :(

Axel

18th June 2009, 12:40 PM

Wow the community is divided. TBH this is beating a dead horse, but I really can't stand BR as it doesn't flow with the game TBH. I hope in the next Wipeout they bring back the booster system from WO3. That to me is just perfect. I may have liked the BR system if the PS3 stick wasn't so tall and cumbersome.

I'm very glad that they gave us the option to disable the damn thing in multiplayer though.

silverfoxy

18th June 2009, 12:45 PM

Yeldar - I can get them to work the majority of the time but when you can't BR on Chenghou forward off the big hill online and offline then IMO there is a problem with the game.

All I will say is I never had any issues before any of the online updates and daft ranking system.

As Axel said we are flogging a dead horse here, lets hope they fix them before Fury.

I use the Dpad, can't race properly with the stick. This shouldn't make any difference at all though.

LordVonPS3

15th August 2009, 01:23 AM

I voted for NO barrel rolls & I'm one of the 1300 or so who has "beaten Zico". Now that I've finally got that trophy I'm all for keeping WOHD and Fury as they are, because that keeps the award distinctive and exclusive. Good luck to everyone else! :p

I have to say though, I think it would have been better if the game never had barrel rolls. I'd much rather focus on racing line & hitting the boost pads.

Maybe Studio Liverpool's next WOHD expansion pack could reintegrate HD versions of the original WipEout & 2097 craft (which aren't capable of doing barrel rolls). HD versions of the original WipEout tracks would also be most welcome... :clap

lunar

15th August 2009, 08:55 AM

jimsin

15th August 2009, 03:27 PM

Just thought I'd add my opinion here.

I didn't like barrel rolls to start with because they only seemed to work about 80% of the time - I even went and bought a new Dualshock controller because I thought my Sixaxis ones were faulty (not that I regret it, because I wouldn't go back to the Sixaxis now).

Anyway - this all changed when Fury came out - either I suddenly became better at barrel rolls, or they improved the way they work - because now I get a 100% success rate (unless it's a very short airtime and there's not time to complete it) - so now I enjoy them ... I think that they add a lot of skill, risk and strategy to the game which would be missing otherwise.

Lightlord

17th August 2009, 12:13 AM

I belive they should be included and also better incorporated into some of the barrel roll-less tracks like moa therma reverse, don't know many if anyone who bothers with the br at the start because of the awkard angles it leaves people at or the tracks where you NEED a turbo to be able to manage a barrel roll. I'm not saying that every track should have something stupid like 10 br per track but I do think that tracks which have very few could have a couple more in better places with the odd one here and there not needing a turbo to accomplish it.

LordVonPS3

18th August 2009, 01:54 PM

Great idea about the ships. Imagine that - a version of the 2097 Piranha in Wipeout HD. No barrel rolls but insane velocity. I think a few people would hate it passionately, but others would be very excited about that idea. :rock

Precisely. Piranha 2097.
Extreme speed... No barrel rolls.

I won't say that Wipeout HD is slow (especially as Zone mode keeps getting faster), but this footage of a 2097 Piranha on Phantom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK1WSxNN4aU) should help to revive a memory or two. :hyper

I'd ideally like to see at least one more pack added to Wipeout HD, featuring...
* 2097 tracks.
* 2097 craft (no barrel rolls) with similar handling.
* "Challenge I". Navigate 3 laps of each of the 2097 tracks at 'Phantom' or 'Zen' speed. Complete Challenge I to unlock Challenge II.
* "Challenge II". As per "Challenge I" but running at 'Zen' or 'Supersonic' speed.
* All the music from 2097 / XL.

Any following pack from that could use the exact same craft and challenge modes, but run over the original WipE'out" tracks.

Ah... Yes. Wishful thinking!

graeble

19th August 2009, 05:19 PM

YES!
and in cockpit view.

DividedXZero

19th August 2009, 05:20 PM

You mean i'd get my 2097 Qirex back! :hyper:hyper:hyper

(Ugh...dont tease me like that...) :naughty

kaori

19th August 2009, 05:57 PM

I have to say though, I think it would have been better if the game never had barrel rolls. I'd much rather focus on racing line & hitting the boost pads.

Do you really believe that to beat a record, you just have to do barell rolls ?
Please, look some videos of pirhapac (http://www.youtube.com/user/pirhapac) or leungbok (http://www.youtube.com/user/BADTESTERZ), and you'll see this guy have

a sense of the trajectory out of the ordinary.

graeble

19th August 2009, 06:11 PM

o' ye gods!
leungbok's last lap is amazing.

LordVonPS3

19th August 2009, 08:53 PM

Do you really believe that to beat a record, you just have to do barell rolls ?
Please, look some videos of pirhapac (http://www.youtube.com/user/pirhapac) or leungbok (http://www.youtube.com/user/BADTESTERZ), and you'll see this guy have

a sense of the trajectory out of the ordinary.

Those videos look like they're all running at speeds faster than Phantom? I'd certainly love to hear about anyone 'beating Zico' to get a gold trophy without doing any barrel rolls. ;)

Quite clearly it is too late to do anything about barrel rolls in the main HD campaign now, it is what it is... I can live with that and it's something I won't care too much about once I've finished the game, but I'll lament that nothing was done to improve the situation and it might even keep me from going back to it... Zone mode on the other hand really doesn't need barrel rolls and for me at least - that makes it *more* interesting.

The whole concept of barrel rolls is just a bit much for what some of us want from a futuristic game. If I could barrel roll my car off a wall and get a speed boost I'd be doing it everyday. Really, the idea is that silly - and I shouldn't have to apologize for someone else's decision to include this feature / trick. :cold

Anyway, my suggestion was to introduce a couple of new challenge modes akin to 2097 at HD's faster speeds and to take that opportunity to appease some of us old school WipEout fans by reintroducing the 2097 craft & remove barrel rolls. I'm not saying it will, but it could pull in a lot of gamers who were put off.

A 2097 pack would be good business, it would encourage more people to buy the game + packs and maybe even to buy more PS3's. Wipeout HD should continue to get Studio Liverpool's support through updates and packs. It would be a crime to leave it at Fury!

yeldar2097

19th August 2009, 08:58 PM

Barrel Roll = win

Darkdrium777

19th August 2009, 09:22 PM

Those videos look like they're all running at speeds faster than Phantom?No...

lunar

19th August 2009, 09:32 PM

I shouldn't have to apologize for someone else's decision to include this feature / trick.

Indeed. You didn`t say that people "just" have to barrel roll in order to get good times. That`s not true, as we all know :) I agree with a lot of your points, but I think the developers love barrel rolls and don`t think they`re silly at all, so we`re not onto a winner here ;)

Aeroracer

20th August 2009, 02:05 AM

I dont like BR's too much but then i dont know all the secret locations for them yet or can pull off all the low rolls, if i did i would love them. But i am honest into my reason for disliking them, they dont effect the flow or action of the game, just your race times and a position on the podium.:hyper:hyper

BR's are part of the game and probally will be in future. Get used to them.
They do make a record SL and TT but online racing BR's are a real gamble and can get you blown up.It add to the strategy and action.

It allows race leader position to shift in some instances.:dizzy:dizzy

lunar

20th August 2009, 11:17 AM

I`ve been barrel rolling my ass off since Wipeout Pure came out in the US in March 2005, so I`m very used to them. I`m bored of them. They are not a new concept and if the game is to evolve at all SL should think of something else in future imo. This thread was also intended for people to come up with ideas for what could replace BRs or how they could evolve. As has been pointed out, the risk/reward system with BRs is great when it works, but for a lot of people they are also silly and excessive in the amount you can do, and for many people they make no sense in a racing game which is why these people don`t like them.

leungbok

20th August 2009, 12:13 PM

Yes, but lot of people doesn't like them for the same reasons as Jasmin, and few have the honesty to admit it :?
But it's always a good excuse to use when people wants to reach top ranks on TT/sl, and don't succeed.

On avalon's events, you can just hope for 6 BR in a whole race (1 per lap) and if you can escape from ramming and chained the perfect laps :rolleyes:. Look at Wowo's records for example, he's good for BR ok, but one BR per lap, EVERYBODY CAN DO IT, so what's the difference ? Maybe he has good lines too (or he races at subsonic speed while others are in phantom races :lol) !
Some pilots like Mad-Ice, aren't big BR's fans, but they uses them to compete on TT/sl boards, and most important, they don't complains ! They plays the game instead of speaking and explaining why they have not the rank they deserves :rolleyes:
To have ace's results, people must act as aces first !

I also know that's not the case for all the wipeout's fans ! Some, simply don't like BR because it changes a little the gameplay. I was very pleased with the 3 first wipeout's gameplay ! Anyway, i just adjust everytime to the new stuff, and i like that ! As an example, i had problems to correctly use sideshift, but it's a new possibility offered, that you can add at your piloting techniques. Like barrel rolls !

Sorry, for this post's mood, but it becomes really boring to see people crying instead of training, or maybe better, accepts that others can just be better, what's the problem with that ? It's a game, not a job (and there's other racers without BR, even other wipeouts) !
I accept people's ego, but i have issues with people with ego which fails at the first difficulty and searches for excuses.

lunar

20th August 2009, 12:32 PM

What makes you assume that this is about results and rankings? I`m talking about the gameplay, not the rankings. I didn`t mention them or bring the subject up. It`s not me who keeps bringing that into it. I don`t know who these people are who you say use BRs as "excuses". Rankings have nothing to do with it I just don`t like barrel rolls. We are able to discuss Wipeout 3 SE without getting bitter about shortcuts and turbo scraping, so can`t we discuss Barrel Rolls without making it personal and about egos? Sorry. Forget it. :(

leungbok

20th August 2009, 01:10 PM

My response was not specially to your post, Lunar ;)
It was more for people complaining about barrel rolls, because when they try to reach top ranks on tt, they can't (because off course of those *?#!* BR !).
Franckly, it's easy to play wipeout without doing any BR, you can even beat elite AI without, and have lot of fun doing races or tournaments ! So, what's the problem ? IMO, people compares to others on the ranking table (the problem comes from that !) and they'd loves being on top, but *?#!* BR prevents them to reach that goal !
To resume what i mean, if you don't want to compete on the rankings and just have fun, there's no reason to complains about br because YOU CAN PLAY WITHOUT !!
You can even be competitive without (wowo did his phantom tt race on moa reverse without any br :robot).

Aeroracer

20th August 2009, 01:26 PM

@lunar...i do not think leungbok is getting personal with you, his post has many valid points in it.

like many people who cry about BR's are in reality just crap pilots looking for an excuse for why they just got ownedon the track.there may be a few players who legitimatly do not like BR's for reasons as stated,but probally not to many.

Do not take offence at this statemen tif you know deep down this dos'nt apply to you.this is just aimed at cry baby's, they know who they are.

as for alternate replacement for BR's....i liked the turbo boost in ridge racer. i liked the way you powered up the turbo by doing some flashy driffting..

maybe you could have a boost that builds up on perfect racing. dont hit walls and tubo builds faster.:dizzy

lunar

20th August 2009, 02:18 PM

thanks guys, sorry if I was a bit prickly there :paperbag:redface:

I like your ideas Jasmine, building boost somehow. Didn`t someone have an idea to use BRs as a way to charge a boost meter? Rather than giving you instant boost they add to your "boost store" which you later trigger when you want it.

yeldar2097

20th August 2009, 03:08 PM

BR = win

they are my 3rd love, 1st and 2nd being PS3 and WOHD respectively :P

LordVonPS3

20th August 2009, 06:32 PM

LOL guys. Come on! Your arguments against "anti-BR" people aren't representing what those people think at all.

Here's what I know to be true...

FIRST... I really don't care about the WOHD world rankings. What affects me the most is my friends rankings and my friends either aren't into WOHD as much as they were into WipEout & 2097, or they're not into it at all. My friends can't be bothered to play WOHD online (they don't like BR's either) and the main reason I play games online is to play with friends. I'm not saying I won't play against strangers, I've already done that & won a couple of online WOHD trophies. For me - playing against strangers is not as much fun as playing against people I know & can happily abuse & get abuse from after we've all just got home from the pub. That is one of the things that makes Warhawk a great & often played game! I'll also make a point here about "Push to Talk" (PtT) in WOHD. It's just another button to press, so when people are focusing on doing barrel rolls they aren't going to remember to flick their finger to PtT! It really is common sense and epic fail all at the same time.

SECOND... Trophies. I'm not a massive trophy collector, but I think of trophies as part of completing a game. Games are often huge these days and many people haven't got the time to bash through 100 odd 'cells' AND collect 30 odd trophies whilst working and having a girlfriend / wife / children. I loved the WipEout & 2097 campaign / challenge modes. Simple, effective, completable in an hour or so. Each trophy to me - is like a challenge mode in itself. The 'Beat Zico' trophy took me hundreds of laps to do (maybe 2 hours?). That's more than an entire gaming session for some people, so it won't be too surprising if few people Platinum WOHD. That has nothing to do with how easy / hard the game is, it's a matter of time, investment and how accessible the game is to 'everyone'. WipEout has never been an easy game series to beat, but WOHD has taken that difficulty level and then stretched it out to tens if not hundreds of hours. The Zico trophy was an interesting challenge and it kept me going until I equaled the time at first (getting the trophy) and then actually beat it. It has got NOTHING to do with jealousy of other WOHD ranking players, or my racing ability. The key to getting this trophy is all about barrel rolls - which frankly is sod all to do with racing. On a slight tangent here I want to mention that for a particular car+track configuration for around a month - I was 1st in a GT5P ranking table for both Pro & Standard physics. PD then wiped the rankings with some physics update. Well... Now I have traded GT5P in and will just play on GT4 until GT5 is released. That's a good example of what has happened to all the WipEout fans with WOHD. I know I can race and on good days I can compete. I'm not & don't need to be the best WOHD pilot in the world, but I get a lot of enjoyment from competing against friends. Friends may or may not compete for trophies too... My friends may never 'Beat Zico' and that's most likely because they won't try - and try - and try for 1, 2 or n hours! They have lives! That means I'm back to simply beating WOHD, cell by cell, just for the sake of beating WOHD & collecting a few more trophies. I want my friends to complete the game, talk on and on about what a great achievement that was and give me some incentive to do it myself. No offense to all you fellow WOHDer's but that's how I've found myself here - on this forum.

THIRD...
Ridge Racer 7. I hate the idea of drift = boost building, it's just as silly as barrel roll boosting. It's not realistic, not futuristic, not... Anything! The difference with RR7 is that it's ALL ABOUT DRIFTING round corners - so it doesn't really impact the way you're meant to enjoy the game. Conversely, WOHD is not about barrel rolling around every corner! WOHD is not Street Fighter, so why should it have 'special moves'?! It's ridiculous, it really is.

The only way WOHD is going to recapture some of that old school WipEout / 2097 magic is to make an excuse to reinstate the old formula - without annoying the BR fans (any more than I have done with this post). This post is not really aimed at BR fans, this post is aimed at Studio Liverpool who have done a great job of making a game that they wanted to make. Is it really a case of "TOO BAD" that many WipEout & 2097 fans were looking forward to SL making a game that would especially appeal to them?

Come on Studio Liverpool... How many requests have you had for WipEout + 2097 tracks? How many requests have you had for WipEout + 2097 craft? How many e-mail's did you get complaining about the HUD before you decided the fans mattered enough to throw in a 2097 & Wip3out HUD? We know WOHD is not meant to be WipEout 2097 and despite some of us hoping for a return to that form - we never EXPECTED it to be. You've got our money (and can make even more), but give the old school fans some more of what WE want...

If we had the 2097 craft (no BR's), a new track pack, the old challenge modes reinstated (as I suggested in an earlier post) online for all this + open mic... Well... TEH INTERNETZ would surely be buzzing again! :dizzy

Frances_Penfold

20th August 2009, 07:19 PM

Interesting thread :)

I am used to BRs in Pure/Pulse/WOHD and have become rather fond of them. That said, I agree with Lunar that BRs are a component of gameplay that may most need to be evaluated in future. Not that I have any brilliant insights on how to do that-- perhaps some sort of energy storing option that can be released for fast speeds, as has been suggested by others here.

The contention evident in this thread isn't unique to Wipeout-- lots of racing games have some skill-based mechanism for faster speed, and these end up being debated. Mini-turbos in Mario Kart are the same kind of issue.

I guess for me, I don't mourn the inclusion of BRs in Pure/Pulse/WOHD but I wouldn't mind seeing a different mechanic in future Wipeout games :)

Franckly, it's easy to play wipeout without doing any BR, you can even beat elite AI without, and have lot of fun doing races or tournaments...
To resume what i mean, if you don't want to compete on the rankings and just have fun, there's no reason to complains about br because YOU CAN PLAY WITHOUT !!

I agree with this basic sentiment, and would add that the same is true for Pure/Pulse-- you can set many highly competitive times on Pure/Pulse without doing a single BR or only one per lap.

On the other hand-- can you really beat elite AI on Sebenco WOHD without doing any barrel rolls? I can't (though I'm not very good at WOHD either).

leungbok

20th August 2009, 07:46 PM

We know WOHD is not meant to be WipEout 2097 and despite some of us hoping for a return to that form - we never EXPECTED it to be. You've got our money (and can make even more), but give the old school fans some more of what WE want...

If we had the 2097 craft (no BR's), a new track pack, the old challenge modes reinstated (as I suggested in an earlier post) online for all this + open mic... Well... TEH INTERNETZ would surely be buzzing again! :dizzy

Don't forget the old graphics, and maybe a mode 7 based game :lol !
Seriously, wipeout has evolved that's all, you must admit that !
Other solution is to play the original wipeout 2097, many members here are playing all wipeouts regularly.
But maybe you don't have time to play that much wipeout, or you leave a game once you finish all cells ?

I love all the wipeouts, but i'm not sure that the 2097 fanbase has the commercial power that you suppose ;)

Lance

20th August 2009, 08:24 PM

Just because something evolves, it doesn't mean that the mutation is beneficial to longterm survival of the species. :D

leungbok

20th August 2009, 08:27 PM

Sure Lance, but evolution good or bad is life ;)

SaturnReturn

20th August 2009, 08:37 PM

FIRST... I really don't care about the WOHD world rankings. What affects me the most is my friends rankings and my friends either aren't into WOHD as much as they were into WipEout & 2097, or they're not into it at all. My friends can't be bothered to play WOHD online (they don't like BR's either) and the main reason I play games online is to play with friends.

I can't help but feel that, if this were really true, you would just play online with your friends and set the barrel roll option to "off". That was provided for those who don't like barrel rolls, so that can't really be used as an excuse not to play the game. As leungbok says, you can play almost all of it without barrel rolls. Beat Zico won't be possible without them, but that's just one trophy, and if it's really about playing with friends, then trophies shouldn't be much of a bother.

Lance - is that really true about evolution? I always thought evolution came about as a result of mutations, some of which were beneficial to the species etc. So to some, barrel rolls are a pointless mutation, and not an evolution. But I'm probably wrong. I don't believe in evolution anyway. :lol

leungbok

20th August 2009, 08:47 PM

Please Sat, don't become creationist ! ;)

Lance

20th August 2009, 08:47 PM

"Lance - is that really true about evolution?"

IMO> Yeah, that's true; just take humans for example. Not much prospect of continued existence there. :D

I'm hoping that's true of barrel rolls in WO, too.

SaturnReturn

20th August 2009, 10:10 PM

Hmm, I see more what you mean now. Cool. Leungbok - don't worry, I don't believe in that either.

DISRUPTOR

20th August 2009, 10:31 PM

An easy solution to this barrel roll debate could be, the players who dislike using barrels rolls, disable them when setting up the game. You may find trouble finding as many games but at least you would not have to worried about losing to a player using a barrel roll.

Aeroracer

20th August 2009, 11:08 PM

hahaha 25 pages of crap on BR's..ban them ..keep them..ban..them..and disruptor say turn them off in options if you dont like them..cool. Now why didnt i think of that.

Actually i quite like barrel rolls. well only on the tracks i know all the secret locations and can br on.:dizzy:dizzy

DISRUPTOR

20th August 2009, 11:13 PM

LMAO what a way to put it.

LordVonPS3

21st August 2009, 03:14 AM

I can't help but feel that, if this were really true, you would just play online with your friends and set the barrel roll option to "off". That was provided for those who don't like barrel rolls, so that can't really be used as an excuse not to play the game. As leungbok says, you can play almost all of it without barrel rolls. Beat Zico won't be possible without them, but that's just one trophy, and if it's really about playing with friends, then trophies shouldn't be much of a bother.

Just because you can switch BR's off doesn't mean you should do if you don't like them. You need to better understand that we've all been told that BR's are integral to the game, therefore it would be wrong (going against the intended experience) to turn them off just for online play.

I have already explained why I find the trophies somewhat annoying.

Okay folks, it seems I am still not getting through, so allow me to put it another way by posing this simple question...

Q) Do bears crap in the woods?
A) We all know they do. Pretending you can't see or hear them won't mask the stink.

Turning BR's off for online play with friends is NOT a solution. It's like trying to ignore the credit crunch by staying indoors! :g

The rest of the world uses BR's. I've been exposed to them & won races using them. Other people however find that BR's are easy to forget about. They're also the sort of feature that many people want to forget about - because they shatter the futuristic realism of the series. BR's are just like the PtT button - that's why no-one talks online in WOHD. Just because we're told BR's are an integral part of the game doesn't mean all WOHD players are going crazy trying to do them on every bit of every circuit just to find out where they can possibly be done. Nope. Instead, people just forget about them & blame the game for being too hard when they fail to win yet another 1p novice race on venom.

Fine - what's done is done with WOHD, but SL extended WOHD with Fury, so how about throwing the old school WipEout and 2097 players a bone?

SL doesn't need to change the main Wipeout HD game. SL doesn't need to change Fury. SL doesn't need to change anything. SL should simply add to it. It wouldn't hurt WOHD to add in what I've described. It would just be giving gamers another option.

Darkdrium777

21st August 2009, 04:10 AM

Objective:

The main problem with Barrel Rolls is that they were always partly luck based. In PurE and Pulse, the Barrel Rolls often did not work because of framerate issues. In WipEout HD, at the beginning, it started off well, Barrel Rolls had a very high success rate. But it went as low as PurE's success rate with Update 1.30, because of various bugs. It appears now that they have fixed this issue entirely with Update 2.00. Objectively, this is/was my main beef against Barrel Rolls (Or any other high-skill move.) The fact that they did not work every single time you wanted to do one. If they can guarantee it working then leave them, if not yank them, forever.

Subjective:

I find that Barrel Rolls provide a new (well it's not so new anymore) gameplay tactic to WipEout. It's skillful, rewarding, but dangerous, and we've all discussed that. Something to do when jumping, a little arcade-like, and it increases the sense of competition ("Gotta make this Barrel Roll and prevent him from doing so.")
However, it is true that we have lost the racing and tight lines aspect for the most bumpy line, a little only (Not counting wall-hacking glitches and etc.) We still need to have tight lines and drive well, near perfection. Subjectively I do not know what I would vote (strangely), as removing them would bring us back, unless they can implement something else as interesting as Barrel Rolls. But the fact that we lose a bit of this "perfect line" aspect makes me doubt about voting Yes.

Though I have already voted Yes on this poll a long time ago, I find it's no longer valid and would like to be able to retract it (I can't).