A heads up to Gran Turismo fans out there

[mclarensmps]

If you have a PS3, and are a fan of GT, create a Japanese Playstation store account:

http://blogs.ign.com/xheavenxsentx/2006/12/09/39684/

and Download the newest demo of GT Prologue.

It has about 6-7 cars (The GTR Prototype, Lancer Evo, BMW 1 series, and the small roadster, i forget it's name) are playable immediately, on Suzuka.

It's a two lap race with 16 cars on track. There are other unlockable features that have not been unlocked yet, and I am not really sure how they are unlocked either.

Enjoy the new physics model (that is being worked on still), and IN CAR VIEWS!

[Lion]

has anything been said anywhere about it hitting any english language PSN stores any time soon?
if it's not too far away then I'm happy to wait..

edit: OK I lied.. it's 30% downloaded as I type this :P

[mclarensmps]

haha!

I don't think it's making a US/UK debut (and I think it will only be on the jap store for a few weeks).

I believe this is a (hasty) release to coincide with the Tokyo motor show, because Nissan wanted to use Gran Turismo to unveil and showcase it's new GTR Supercar. We can thank them for this little gem we got :).

[infoxicated]

Playing the GTHD demo has kind of tempered my enthusiasm for more Gran Turismo. It's like they take so long to make each iteration that you forget how completely empty the whole experience is.

Supercars still understeer at 30mph according to their physics model and they've never had AI worth a toss. It's by playing something like GTR2 that you realise just how out of whack the handling in GT is. I don't see myself splashing out on the next one, whenever it arrives, but I guess I'll check out the demo when it surfaces on the European PSN.

[mclarensmps]

Actually the physics of GT are absolutely bang on (GTR has a much better physics engine, I agree but they only have race cars, and race cars are inherently different)

The thing is, with traction control on, absolutely any car is going to understeer if you don't go into the corner at precisely the ideal speed.

Take the traction control off (or reduce it a lot), and take stability management off, and the car becomes a whole new animal.

I've played every iteration of GT, and have been able to mimic the driving characteristics of every car that I have driven in game, with those that I have driven in real life.

The only point I can agree with you on with, is the AI, which really really needs work (even the one in this recent demo)

It is unfair to compare race cars with road cars simply because race cars are made to be as neutral as possible on the limit and, therefore, understeer and oversteer, unless specifically set up, are very marginal experiences.

[infoxicated]

I'd class the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IV GSR, the Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution IX GSR, the Lotus Elise 111R, the Nissan SKYLINE GT-R Vspec II, the Toyota Celica GT-FOUR Rally Car, and - most definitely - the Ferrari 599 of GT HD as racing cars, given that I don't see too many of them doing the school run of a morning.

I'll give you the Suzuki Cappucino, though - but then my own car has more grunt than one of those.

It's inaccurate to compare driving a car in real life to driving a simulation of one with a joypad or even a half decent wheel screwed onto a desk in your house, regardless of how "real" it feels.

Myself, I completed the original GT, most of GT2, lost interest in the poor AI of GT3 after a fortnight, played quite a bit of GT4 with a wheel, but ultimately lost interest due to the non-existant AI and the torturous progression. Ultimately tuning cars and entertaining myself by driving them with all the aids turned off did not compensate for a pretty soulless game. Conversely I've had a much more enjoyable and "realistic" experience using said wheel with GTR2.

Hey, if GT was the most accurate thing in the world then why would they bother with the loading screen message that says something to the effect of "does not reflect the actual performance these cars in real life"?

They'd say "**** yeah! This is it - no need to go out and drive the real thing or buy any other game that might also claim to have 'realistic handling', because this is the shizzle right here!" :D

[RJ O'Connell]

I can say without any regret or fear that I have had more fun playing Forza Motorsport 2 than I ever have with any installment of Gran Turismo.

And I can only list one reason - they have done away with pointless license tests that will not be applied to any real-life racing scenario, such as the Acceleration and Braking tests. I think people who play these types of Racing Simulations understand the concept of both acceleration and braking.

[mclarensmps]

Actually, there is a world of a difference between every single car that you mentioned, and a proper race car (like the ones simulated in GTR).

The only car I can give you is the Celica, and that is it.

Also, I find it contradictory that you say, "It's inaccurate to compare driving a car in real life to driving a simulation of one with a joypad or even a half decent wheel screwed onto a desk in your house, regardless of how "real" it feels.", and then follow it up by ending the next paragraph with, "Conversely I've had a much more enjoyable and "realistic" experience using said wheel with GTR2."

At that point, it really just becomes a matter of my opinion vs. yours, which is perfectly fine by me :).

That said, I would recommend you switch the traction control off in the game and try to play it again (at least to do the physics justice), because the traction control in Gran Turismo is not an accurate modelling of the actual systems that exist in various cars, and only exists as an aid to the poorer drivers who play the game. Absolutely the same goes for the "Active Stability Management" model that they have in the game.

Also, the reason they put a disclaimer like that in the game is due to the fact that the cars in GT take no damage, and because of the lack of common sense in the general public, they don't want you to think that ramming a car out of your way to keep your line without it having absolutely any effect on your car's "performance".

You should take a look at the side by side videos of drivers who drove the nurburgring in their real car, and in GT, and see how accurate the steering inputs were in both respects (obviously, giving the amount of leeway you can to the difference between steering from your home, and steering from the car), and you should also check out the video of Sebastian Loeb doing LeMans time trials at the Polyphony headquarters.

Anyways, like I said though, the AI leaves way too much to be desired in the game, but I treat the game as a very big and very versatile time trial, and am happy with that.


I can say without any regret or fear that I have had more fun playing Forza Motorsport 2 than I ever have with any installment of Gran Turismo.

And I can only list one reason - they have done away with pointless license tests that will not be applied to any real-life racing scenario, such as the Acceleration and Braking tests. I think people who play these types of Racing Simulations understand the concept of both acceleration and braking.

Well, sure those tests are pointless, but if they are so easy you should be able to get gold in your first try, and it should really take all of half a minute to do each one.

[RJ O'Connell]

I just wish games like GT, Project Gotham and Forza Motorsport would include rollovers. They could leave the damage alone, hell, they could have no damage and I'd be content if the cars could at least behave "normally" during a crash and be able to flip and roll. It was possible in Driving Emotion Type-S, so I think a much more respected driving game developer like Polyphony could allow that to happen.

Mclaren: When I was eight years old playing the original on the Playstation 1, trust me, it was a living nightmare.

[mclarensmps]

Mclaren: When I was eight years old playing the original on the Playstation 1, trust me, it was a living nightmare.

:) You were 8! You aren't supposed to drive when you're 8 anyway! Just passing a license test would be good enough, I would say.

As far as damage modelling goes, unless it's extremely accurate, Polyphony is probably not going to bother implementing it, and I doubt the consoles at this point have the processing power to actually implement such modeling unless there are physics engines involved.

That said, I do agree that being unable to roll over a car, damage or not, is unrealistic (Specially those oddly proportioned diahatsu vans that were in the full versions of GT, if you push those over the limit, they will most definitely topple).

[RJ O'Connell]

I have heard two opposing viewpoints on the damage modeling issue:

1) Certain manufacturers didn't want to see their cars mangled in video game form, so they requested that there be no visual damage. Forza Motorsport has since proven that excuse is bullshit.

2) Polyphony, being the perfectionists they are with car models, would take too much time to create a "perfect" damage model that would conform to each individual vehicle.

[mclarensmps]

Aye, and I am fine with that, as far as damage modeling is concerned (I remember their half assed attempt to change car handling characteristics based on bumping and grinding, which was pretty useless), but still, your point about flipping over is entirely true in order to have a truly real physics engine, but then you can't really emulate the true physics involving flipping, unless the car takes damage as well, so it's kinda like running around in a circle haha.

They will do it, as they have said that they have the intention of implementing damage, but not until, I think the machines are powerful enough, and also, not until they have an accurate representation of the modelling, and math behind it's implementation. That is my opinion at the very least.

[RJ O'Connell]

Yes, I have read about some of the newer things they're doing (16 car grids) and how they wouldn't do that until there was hardware powerful enough to make it happen.

Was the PS2 really not good enough for them to make any real forward gameplay advances?

[Task]

That's their story, and they're sticking to it.
The probably put >= 85% of the processor into the graphics, leaving not much for everything else.

Makes it tough for them to blame the platform when the next version still has crappy AI. 8 P

We shall see.

[RJ O'Connell]

How much were they putting into the graphics for GT1 and 2? 10 percent?

Those two games were the pinnacle of blocky, garish graphics for a driving simulator. Ridge Racer Type 4 and NFS Hot Pursuit were much easier on the eyes.

[mclarensmps]

The physics engine of GT didnt change b/w GT 1 and 2.

The engine changed for 3, and then was tweaked once again for 4.

The engine for GTHD is the same as that of 4.

The engine for GT Prologue is a moderate level build of the GT5 one.

Graphic wise, GTHD uses high resolution models of GT4, Prologue uses single shell builds of GT5 models, and GT5 will have component models of all the cars (so far that is what it is supposed to be)

[infoxicated]

Also, I find it contradictory that you say, "It's inaccurate to compare driving a car in real life to driving a simulation of one with a joypad or even a half decent wheel screwed onto a desk in your house, regardless of how "real" it feels.", and then follow it up by ending the next paragraph with, "Conversely I've had a much more enjoyable and "realistic" experience using said wheel with GTR2."

It's not contradictory at all, unless you're unneccesarily being pedantic - I'm simply stating that my standards for simulated reality are obviously different from yours. This is why I put the word "realistic" in quotes. I find the wallowy understeer of GT less desireable than the experience of GTR2, although I would rank GT above the original GTR.

Unless you can feel the weight of the car shift and use your own senses, such as balance and peripheral vision, playing a driving game would be just about impossible if the physics model identical to reality.


At that point, it really just becomes a matter of my opinion vs. yours, which is perfectly fine by me :).
Is it really fine by you, or...

That said, I would recommend you switch the traction control off in the game and try to play it again
Would you really?

Well, I would recommend you re-read my previous post - especially the bit where I said that I play it with all of the aids turned off.

Also, the reason they put a disclaimer like that in the game is due to the fact that the cars in GT take no damage, and because of the lack of common sense in the general public, they don't want you to think that ramming a car out of your way to keep your line without it having absolutely any effect on your car's "performance".
:D

Is that so?

I'd be more inclined to believe that the general public has enough common sense to know the difference between playing a driving game and driving in real life, and that that statement is there solely for legal protection on the part of the game developers. Gotta at least try to fend off those class action suits.

You should take a look at the side by side videos of drivers who drove the nurburgring in their real car, and in GT, and see how accurate the steering inputs were in both respects (obviously, giving the amount of leeway you can to the difference between steering from your home, and steering from the car), and you should also check out the video of Sebastian Loeb doing LeMans time trials at the Polyphony headquarters.
Yes. I'm sure Sebastian Loeb would agree that anyone who can match his times in Gran Turismo is then completely qualified to drive his WRC car because the game is so close to reality as makes no difference. :rolleyes:

[mclarensmps]

Oooooooooooh bait :D

Alright point to point:

1) Again you are comparing pure race cars with road cars when you are comparing GTR with Gran Turismo (and don't get me wrong, I love both games). Race cars inherently feel more neutral and better handling than road cars when you drive them, and when you compare them to any road car, be it a hardcore supercar, the supercar will feel inferior no matter which way you look at it. This is why you feel it understeer, more on this on point 3.

2) I am fine if you like GTR more than GT, but I do disagree with you that the physics model of GT is incorrect.

3) If you do turn ASM and TC off in Gran Turismo, there is absolutely no way you are getting terminal understeer in the cars. Either we are playing completely different games or something is not right. I still have replays of my 1:07.blah in the Ferrari 599 with all aids turned off, to prove to you that there was not a hint of understeer, while trying to keep the lap together was a challenge and a half in itself.

4) Here, we are talking about a public that needs to be reminded that their coffee is hot and shouldn't be spilled... I am more inclined to believe that they will put out any and all disclaimers in their game to not get people to attempt what they do in game, in reality. Just like all car adds need their mandatory "Professional driver on a closed course, do not attempt". GT has a similar disclaimer about the representations of the environments in the game (which are match for match environments for tracks like Suzuka, New York - not that that is a real track at all, Nordeschliffe, etc.).

5) It's not so much that anyone who can drive a GT time can drive his WRC car (And he drove a Le Mans car FWIW, not his WRC car), it's the fact that he was immediately accustomed to driving his LMP in GT as he was in real life, and drove similar laptimes, and it took him a decent amount of time to pull the good time up on screen.

--

I am not arguing here that just because you can play GT, you can drive a real car and be a race car driver, I am arguing that the game DOES NOT have inferior physics like you say. I stand by that.

[Lion]

I am terrible at the Gran Turismo games. I tend to find that by the time a car lets me know I've started to make a mistake, I'm irrecoverably out of control.
That said.. I have still had fun in GT4 multiplayer (split screen) and so far GT5 Prologue demo is a bunch of fun :)
I like the GTR, I like the Evo, I don't like the WRX or the LSF
and no matter how good the handling model, no game will feel realistic without spending some serious dosh on a hydraulic rig, which isn't supported by the consoles anyway.

Why is there so little in the way of splitscreen on the PS3 so far?

Incidentally I have to cut WAY back on the driver aids to have any fun in the game

[rdmx]

A HEADS UP TO THE GRAN TURISMO FANS

Top Gear has signed on with Sony for GT



Great news for Top Gear and Gran Turismo fans today, with news that Jeremy Clarkson, Richard Hammond and James May will be bursting onto the PlayStation Network with the upcoming release of GT TV.

For those not in the know, GT TV is a channel coming with the release of Gran Turismo 5 that is dedicated to all automotive news. This is the perfect place for Top Gear, a show dedicated to all forms of motoring.

BBC Worldwide has given the go ahead to Sony Computer Entertainment International and Polyphony Digital to put 40 full episodes of Top Gear up when the GT TV channel launches.

Also announced is the ability for everyone to take on The Stig, as the team have agreed to a GT5 recreation of the Top Gear test track. With Gran Turismo’s record for bringing every car possible to the race track, will it be only a matter of time before we can take on the times set by Nigel Mansell or Jimmy Carr in “A reasonably priced car”?

What i love the most is the inclusion of the top gear test track. That will be awesome.

[mclarensmps]

I got so excited about this when i heard the news, funnily enough my friend was saying after the last episode that they should include the top gear test track in the next GT. He so called it out, it's funny haha.