wipeout1

[stin]

Did you guys ever completed the original Wipeout1 game?

if so please reply thanxs

mind you i just got the game last week and its really cool.

stin :)

ps even c64,cd rom or ps1. as long the game is completed!

[Hellfire_WZ]

Wish I could. I only got hold of it a couple of months ago and I'm totally stuck on Silverstream. Everyone just disappears for a lap! :(

[xEik]

I did, and some other people here as well. But it took me quite a long while to beat Rapier championship. Silverstream is very hard. Everybody agrees that W'O" is the hardest in the series (the handling and collisions have much to do with it) but in my opinion the hardest time I've ever had in any WipEout game was with the fourth prototype in Wip3out at Phantom class. Great skill is needed there to finish first.
By the way if you win Rapier Championshipyou'll be able to race Firestar which is quite a nice circuit but in my opinion not as hard as Silverstream.

[Sven]

yeah, wtf is with silverstream? It's almost like it has reduced traction, which shouldn't be a factor with hovercraft....and then the wall collisions ALWAYS stopped you dead.

[rhys]

i loved silverstream!!! :D

so fast and cool......
its made of artificial crystal so it is slippery.



and yes the stopping really annoyes me aswell!!!!!! :wink:


(PS...shouldnt this topic be in wipeout 1??)

[Sven]

but with ships that have no real contact with the track surface, why would it be slipperey?

[rhys]

um.............

*rhys thinks fast*

poetic(gaming) licence?????? :wink:



maybe the anti grav thing is stronger there?????

[Vasudeva]

Yeah, I did complete WipeOut. Owning a Saturn makes things easier :D. I've never played the PS version.

There is a corner in SilverStream that is almost impossible to take without colliding with the walls. Very tough one. But my favourite always was Korodera, the post-industrial Russian track.

Peace,
V.

[auricom]

yes, i finished it a lot of times... until wipeout 2097 (xl) was out!
For silverstream, there are 2 differents ways : one is short but tricky, the other faster but longest.... try the two ways!
After finishing the championship, you will discover the final track which is very fun!

[zargz]

I did .. the most challanging of the psx gamez! :)

[Armoredgear7]

the hardest time I've ever had in any WipEout game was with the fourth prototype in Wip3out at Phantom class. Great skill is needed there to finish first.

you'll get no argument there - the highest ive ever ranked there is 3rd i think... and that was after a couple hours trying to master it on Phantom.

I saw i copy of the original Wipeout about a week ago for $5 US... starting to regret the fact that i didnt buy it.

[AmishRobot]

I used to be able to beat Silverstream pretty consistently, but that was a long time ago. :lol: You have to use the airbrakes... a LOT. Play it like you would Ridge Racer, and powerslide around the corners. And practice, practice, practice! It's actually a pretty fun track, once you get used to it.

As for reduced traction, maybe it's up in the mountains, where the air is thinner. :roll: Okay, so it's a stretch. I'm trying...

[Hybrid Divide]

I never did beat Silverstream yet, but I HAVE gotten gold on EVERYTHING in Wipeout 64, which is no easy feat. The challenge on Macheon II with only the Qirex Superweapon is sure tough! I got Fusion today, and I still don't own a PS2! Isn't it sad?

Oh well!
At least I got Fusion the day it came out! ^_^

Vagrant Logic OUT

[Nick Burcombe]

Sorry all - I thought Silverstream would be a great challenge - but after listening to all the comments - it was clearly too tough. I seem to remember absolutely hammering with ease even on Rapier, but there is really only one route around it that's worth taking and if you've not got the airbrake timings and distances spot on, you'll have little chance. 3 good laps is what it takes ;) Some people thought Mars was even harder!? Piece of p^%$ I say. ;)

[Task]

Yeah, I completed Silverstream.
If you're still having trouble with it, here's how I managed it:
1) Tackle it only on Venom. Deal with Rapier later.
2) Take the shortest path (I always use Right, Right, Left), learn to use the boosts.
3) Use the FEISAR.
There are many sections of the track that are difficult to master, the proper attack is as important as the right amount of airbrake. For example: The sharp left in the first cave. If you attack it from the left side, you hit the triple boost, which means you need HARD airbrakes _through_ the boost so that you're facing the right way after the boost. If you attack from the right side, less airbrake and a sharper turn (nose down) will do it for you. You can really take this track a lot of different ways, it's part of the beauty of the track. If you end up hating the "FEISAR through the short path" method, you can always try the "Qirex through the long path" method, I've heard of pilots beating it that way.

Nick: Don't apolgize for Silverstream!!!
Wipeout is awesome, it's the only one that's amazingly well balanced. In no other Wipeout is there really a point to the FEISAR, no situation in which it truly shines as "The Ultimate Craft". WOXL is all Qirex until it's all Pirhana. In WO3, anwhere that FEISAR is good, the Goteki is better. The only real "problem" with Wipeout is that it's a bit of a short game. Once youv'e gotten the hang of the game, you can get through the first 5 tracks fairly easily. And then you hit bang up against the Silverstream wall. This is not a bad thing! Just when you think you've mastered the game, you can't even place 3rd in Silverstream. So people can either give up, or buckle down and really play. I'm sure that _that_ was what made Wipeout a winner, the fact that it's tough to beat. When you finally do beat it, you get Firestar! What a reward! A pure speed course with more boost pads than you can shake a stick at! Wow!
So don't go apologizing for brilliance and greatness. :D

[Armoredgear7]

Agreement with Task, it only took me 2 tries to beat Silverstream in Venom Competition mode, and i just bought it today. I think i used the same paths as he suggested too.

__My Observations__
Walls are very touchy.
Tracks are pretty good, Korodera V is my fav (with all the twists)
Feisar is indeed the best ship of the 4, it seems to be the fastest.

I havent dealt with Rapier yet, im gonna leave that for tuesday, cause i need to study for my exam on monday.

[Nick Burcombe]

I'd have to agree with Armouredgear there. Korodera V was my favourite at the time too. Very fast and there are some great lines through it. Must go and buy a PS1 and dig out my copy of wipeout 1. Not played it in about 6 years!! :)

[xEik]

Talking of buying a PS1. Why don't PSOne have link port. Why should I buy one if I can't link it to my older PSX and play W'O"?

[Sven]

it's portable! =)

[stin]

I'd have to agree with Armouredgear there. Korodera V was my favourite at the time too. Very fast and there are some great lines through it. Must go and buy a PS1 and dig out my copy of wipeout 1. Not played it in about 6 years!! :)

just asking if you got ps2 yet? if yes it does work for ps1 games.

its sounds a right tough game and i`m very pleased i got the WIPEOUT1 LOL!

stin;)

[Nick Burcombe]

<spit> Hoch-tuu <spit> Bah hum-bug to the PS2. :) LOL
I'm a bit of an Xbox fanboy at the mo. ;)

[stin]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT! !! :o

*nearly fainted* *in shock!* :roll: :roll:

I I I don`t know what to say X_***! (DANGEROUS THING!) LOL!
Och well as long you happy :D


stin :wink:

[Nick Burcombe]

Hahhahaha!! :)
Hey, whoever pays the bills right ;)

[stin]

yeah true what you say but i`m glad i got the best lol


stin :wink:


_____________________________
Is it wipeout or golf? tough question

[Lance]

.
stindah: ''is it wipeout or golf? tough question.''
lol
[don't ask me why cos i don't know; it just struck me as hilarious]
.

[stin]

.
stindah: ''is it wipeout or golf? tough question.''
lol
[don't ask me why cos i don't know; it just struck me as hilarious]
.

I`m glad you like it cos I`m really a golfer(semi-pro) and I looooves Wipeouts as well so thats why its soo hard to choose! ( I`ll do anything for a game of golf!) 8) :D

so what can I say :D

stin :D
_____________________________
Is it wipeout or golf? tough question

[Vasudeva]

XB... I don't know what to think of it. It's an impressive machine with some impressive games, but coming from Microsoft, it does give me an uneasy feeling. PS2 is doing the "Saturn Trick" by overpricing its machine, which has really angered me (although I will have to get one if I want to play WOF), and GC seems to continue the Nintendo tradition: good games, but most of them are for a younger audience.

Yes, you got that right. I still mourn over the loss of the DC. Sega should have never given up on it.

Peace,
V.

[Nick Burcombe]

Give it a little while - if nothing takes your fancy at the moment. The holiday period is gonna be rife with new software on ALL platforms. I've gone down the XB and GC route at home - love them both. THPS3 on the XBOX is simply awesome. Put a lot of hours into that one. I used to have a PS2, but once I'd played as much GT3 as I possibly could, I sold it coz there wasn't anything else out there that demanded purchasing at the time. Should have kept it really - have all three, but wanted the money to spend on some over-priced nonsense for my car ;)

[infoxicated]

>PS2 is doing the "Saturn Trick" by overpricing its machine

Not true - Sony make very, very little on the actual console - most of their return is from the game sales.

[Nick Burcombe]

Lets face it - no one can be making anyone money on hardware. Sony - possibly - but irrelevant compared to software. XB - How can the Geforce 4 variant in the XBOX cost less that $200?!? Not to mention the Hardrive, Memory, oh yeah and the small matter of a 733mhz Pentium III derivitive!?! Astonishing spec for $199 wouldn't you agree? But I'm sure it's the same for all the manufacturers. They have to be making all the money on Software. A bit like mobile phone companies GIVING fairly high tech phones away for FREE, but making all the money on the subscription fees. OK games aren't at subscription only.....yet..... ;)

[Sven]

actually, that 733 P3 you speak of isn't that great a processor. But the GF4 and HD are quite expensive...
THPS3 for x-box may be impressive, but is it online?
speaking of which, have any of you caught the impressive online linueup that sony has planned for august and into the holidays?

[Lance]

.
jeroen/vasudeva, i love the Dc, but sega was one and a half BILLion u.s. dollars in debt, and just couldn't fight sony's deep, deep,.....DEEP pockets anymore. this was also a large part of why they had to stop making the Saturn

as far as i can tell, all the consoles are being sold for less than they cost to make. a small company can't keep doing that.
.

[FoxZero]

THPS3 for x-box may be impressive, but is it online?

actually yes, in fact you could be playing thps3 for xbox on the internet using gamespy or another internet tunneling program right now, provided you have the proper broadband connection and some cat5 cables.

[Sven]

indeed?

[Vasudeva]

On Sega...

Well Lance, I agree that if they couldn't fight Sony's deep pockets anymore, they had to do something. Perhaps they should have joined forces with Microsoft before the DC came out and make a joint project-console? Just a wild idea, as MS developed the DC's OS I believe.

Anyway, I'll wait for the day they might return with a vengeance ;). Who knows...

Peace,
V.

[FoxZero]

yeah, dreamcast ran on windows ce.. i doubt sega wouldve enjoyed a pairing with microsoft because it probably means they wouldve bought them. :D

oh yeah, to be on topic i beat the venom and rapier challenges up to silverstream, and then beat them again with rapier. when you do that, you get special screens at the end! i did it on both the pc version and the psx version, and i have printscreens of it for the pc version cuz i was so happy. :D

[Lance]

.
i read somewhere that the x-box was originally supposed to be a joint venture between MS and SEGA, much as the PSX started as a joint venture between nintendo and SONY. but in the end, both of the game companies did not follow through on the deal, and the big guys decided to put the machines out on their own. very likely both SONY and MS wanted too much control.

the Dc supposedly uses windows CE to access the internet, but the basic operating system is a SEGA thing. every Dreamcast game contains a copy of sega's operating system on the disc plus whatever additional basic algorithms the specific game requires. this is what i've read. presumably CE would only be included on the gamedisc if it had an online option
.

[FoxZero]

i read somewhere that the x-box was originally supposed to be a joint venture between MS and SEGA, much as the PSX started as a joint venture between nintendo and SONY. but in the end, both of the game companies did not follow through on the deal, and the big guys decided to put the machines out on their own.
it wasnt a matter of too much control i think, they just looked at the technology from the inside. partner with the respective game company and then backstab them by making your own system. thus is the business world. i believe that the original story was that nintendo was looking at sony for cd drives in their system. i forget what the sega/ms thing was.

[Lance]

.
MS is probably quite good at both backstabbing and frontstabbing
.

[FoxZero]

yeah. sony is the same way. hell, theres a lot of companies out there like that.

[stin]

why not help each other its makes more money that way but thats life :-?

thats why they were soo greedy for themselves

stin
_____________________________
Is it wipeout or golf? tough question

[infoxicated]

You can see why M$ got involved with the games market, though. They knew that they couldn't sustain their fortunes with Windows forever - people have not come to perceive a PC as a living room article and while it and Windows was stuck in the spare room or bedroom, MicroSoft was at a disadvantage.

Then there's the fact that Windows XP isn't doing nearly as well as '95 and '98 did before it and you have a company looking to diversify its revenue streams.

The X-Box will succeed, no doubt about it. I imagine I could be wrong, but I doubt that in the history of consumer electroncs, has a company had so much money to throw behind a product - it's not a matter of if it will succeed in the market, just a matter of when it will gain acceptance. There's just too much money in there for it to fail - you could train chimps to rollerblade to Mars and be back by the weekend on the budget they've got.

Yeah, I'm in bed with the competition and all that, but two fantastic systems on the market will mean better and better games for the end user. Developers know that if they put £3 million into developing a title, they'll only need to sell it to 10% (or so) of console owners to make a profit. :)

[Lance]

.
MS bought webTV for those same reasons; it was a living-room product
.

[FoxZero]

the pc industry is slow right now so microsofts strategy of A) putting widely available pc parts in their xbox machines and B) putting xbox to market with huge support will help microsoft lose less money in the current technology slump than if they had just focused on xp. many stores are doing similar things. you might have noticed within the last few months game shelves in stores you never saw them in before. i think its due to the fact that people have cut their spendings in all but the game industry, which is having a large amount of revenue. i think movie industry is very profitable right now as well. ok, sorry, this isnt forbes magazine or something :roll:

[Nick Burcombe]

Personal Opinion Alert! :)

The most important things for MS, I reckon, is to make sure they get the brand name out of the Home Office and into the living room. Not something Sony have had to worry about as it's always been associated with Consumer Electronics. It doesn't really matter whats in the XBOX and losses made per console at the moment - strategic positioning is almost certainly more important. With this in mind, it's not surprising to me that even Nintendo is looking to get out of the Hardware business. Nintendo are in the very fortunate position of being a very very cash-rich company - but it's [Nintendo] therefore having to make a decision about where best to spend this cash - and in my view they have wisely chosen to spend it in the software (where the real money is made) - a decision not unlike Sega. Would you sap your companies reserves trying to compete with the might and wealth and market position of the likes of Sony? Or for that matter Microsofts sheer will power to be at the centre of the "digital home"? Long term I can't imagine platforms making an awful lot of difference. You'll log on, play the games you're subscribed to and and the hardware will be irrelevant. How long away this is, I wouldn't want to speculate and certainly PS3 and Xbox2 are gonna make a showing, but beyond that, the equivelant of your "set-top-box" (but probably built into some component of your wireless home network) at the moment will just be a piece of licensed hardware that plays absolutely amazing software. It'll just be down to the games in the end. Once you can render REAL looking scenes at 60fps with all the surroundsound you could want, what need is there for further hardware? It's not here yet, but it's a future I really hope will happen. ;)

Personal Opinion Alert over. :)

[AmishRobot]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Not about what's going to happen, but that it's a good thing.

First off, The progressing consolidation of the industry is not a good thing. We have all these development houses being sucked up by huge corporations. It's really done some damage to the creative side of game development. The more competition there is, the more choices, and the more creative those choices are. On the hardware side, competition is neccessary for technological innovation. Say what you want about Sega, but they are a truly innovative company, in both hardware and software. Their loss in the hardware arena will prove to be everyone's loss. I expect Nintendo to follow suit after their next piece of hardware, if not sooner. It's the smartest decision they could make, and the reason they haven't yet is difficulty in swallowing the loss of their independence. So we'll have Nintendo, Sega, and EA as the three biggest publisher's, in that order, for Sony and MS's consoles, paying huge royalties to these multinational conglomerates. Do you really think those companies will be driven toward innovation from a lack of competition? The hardware won't matter, because it will all suck.

Secondly, the media industry has been pushing toward a subscription model for delivery for a while now. The music and movie industry have been the most aggressive so far, but the rest will soon follow suit. This has nothing to do with convenience. It has everything to do with control. At the rate we're moving, there will come a day when we'll no longer own any of our entertainment, we'll lease it; pay for the temporary right to use it. This sickens me. I listen to music, watch movies and play games for an emotional response. When I have to pay someone who controls the flow of that leisure everytime I want to enjoy it, I become nothing but a user. I might as well use heroin, because it's more potent. The advent of the set-top box and universal wireless broadband marks the beginning of the age when we lose our citizenship, and become nothing more than consumers, feeding the corporate god.

Granted, a lot of this has nothing to do with games. They're just one more cog in the machine.

Call me pessimistic. :(

[Nick Burcombe]

Good points sir,

...You're right - it is about control. Access Control to YOUR stuff is and has been heading this way for some time. If it goes the way of the big corps...you will no long buy music or games or movies, just rent access to them from any device. Not something I particulatly want to happen either, but you can sense it as inevitable. There are some major questions to be asked of consumers at this point, but it seems businesses are just charging off on this path because it protects them and profits under the banner of "protecting the rights of artists/developers/studios". The public will make the final decision I'm sure.....

As far as innovation on a technical level goes, I agree Sega are innovative (you've only got to look at some of thier arcade machines to see that) but thier market strength and position in the consumers minds has headed towards great software - (and since the Saturn) - second rate hardware, despite there being nothing wrong with the Dreamcast. Sony had enough strength in the market to destroy Dreamcast before it got started. Falsehoods of the PS2's power was enough to keep peoples minds on the Playstation brand. I wouldn't mind, but I still think the Dreamcast was a great console with much better image quality than the PS2 and a better quality of titles in general. Perhaps that's just me.

Maybe my view of the single-core-technology future is a little black and white, but it crossed my mind that in a similar way to most other electronics items, you CAN watch TV on a 14inch Proline TV from Asda for £59.99, but it's a much better experience on a £3000 36" Widescreen Sony TV with 6.1 Surround sound. But it is the Same Core technology - it displays Television pictures and you can hear sound from them both - but the extra features and refinements are the difference to the user experience and of course, that always translates to the cost. (A Lada will get you to work and back, but a Ferrari 550 Maranello will get you there in a more refined and emotive manner ;)).

Maybe this won't happen at all and we can carry one prefering one platform over another and buying boxed product from whoever we choose. Maybe it will come down to the consumers just not wanting this change, I don't know, but I'm just thinking aloud for now coz I think it's interesting. :)

[Nick Burcombe]

Amish in particular...A frined of mine is very interested in the topic of Digital Rights Management and the problems of restricted access to content and has sent me this link - makes for interesting reading - the final point (22) is a particular worry to many people.... http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

Hope this is useful info.

[Wamdue]

Very intresting discussion :) anyway, ive read an interview with the president of SCEJ who had a lot of influence in how ps2 was developed/developing. When asked about why not join up with their enemies and make a final console. Well, his answer was that Sony has had communication with a big us-based company about this but a company based in (dont remember ths city in Japan, but Nintendos HQ is situated there, so its obvious he means nintendo, and the us-based company would of course be MS) ... ill continue.. he basically said that MS and Sony have had some communication about this , nothing solid, but Nintendo is still refusing to cooperate.. this could all be Sony´s rivalry against Nintendo bullshit. Still, it could mean that a final standard hardware for playing games is not that far away..

[Lance]

.
i hope that standardised game consoles or virtual machines never arrive. and i prefer to play games on a dedicated machine. i also want to be able to OWN my games. pay once, play as much as i like without the feeling that i am continually being drained of lifeforce by corporate bloodsucking. of all possible earthly entities, corporations are the least deserving of access control; they are, in effect, non-representative governments.

one machine means no innovation after the first couple of years of manufacture. it takes multiple viewpoints and limitations/abilities to stimulate creativity.

Nick, you are not alone in your opinion of the Dreamcast; it was at the time of its own introduction, and still was at the much later time of the PS2 intro, the best game console ever made. possibly the gamecube and xbox are improvements, particularly the gamecube, but i would not bet on this. [btw, i like the internals of the GC very much, the outside look could be better.]

oddly enough, i consider the PSX to be the second best game machine, and not just despite its lesser power, but because of it; i like a bit of non-realism in my games. only in pornography, would i want virtual reality of a totally convincing level. :D

p.s.: Nick, could you add a wo3 Prototype mode to Quantum Redshift? please?.

[Wamdue]

well, sure, id also like it like youre saying Lance. I like to chose a console and I like to own it , but.. theres advantages of a common console.. for example, youd get access to every console game, no more crossplatform games that arent optimized for your system. So you wouldnt have to buy an XBOX to play Halo, or buy a Ps2 to play Wipeout etc etc..

[infoxicated]

This is one of those topics we should all be debating on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon in a nice quiet pub somewhere. It's very rare that like minded and passionate individuals ever get that chance with this subject. However, I digress. :)

In some ways I think the pay for service model is a little too far fetched for the regular consumer to be comfortable with. However, when you buy a turkey of a game (Headhunter, Twisted Metal Black, Iron Aces, et al), wouldn't it be nice to play it for a couple of hours for two or three dollars and then say "Naaaaah - stick it!"?

The PS2 was invisaged as a set top box which could deliver streamed movies/audio/games on demand as well as games... hence the movie decoding hardware and the bus width of the machine - one eye was on that particular ball when it was designed. With the spead of broadband rollout being the equivalent of continental drift, the PS2 now looks like it will not be able to take on that role fully in its lifetime, but I suspect the PS3 will be more than capable of succeeding at this roll in the right climate - as will the X-Box 2.

As Nick said, once the machines can deliver photorealistic graphics, the choice between hardware will be one of brand loyalty or simply the best package you can get with the hardware. I'm pretty sure that at the turn of the year when I'm playing Tony Hawks 4 online I wont care if I'm up against an X-Box, PC or GC user. I could also have an Emotion Engine 2 or whatever, embedded in my TV and I play games on it as a matter of course without buying a stand alone console.

It's the same as playing Unreal Tournament at my last place of work - I was the only guy on a PC in a building full of Mac's, but it didn't make a difference when I was blasting away at lunch time with the rest of the lads.

The hardware will reach a plateau where it doesn't matter what machine we're on - the games will be pretty identical and if they're played online then we wont care what the other users are seeing as it's all transparent to us.

Of course, I've had three cans of fosters and I'm half way through a Morgibu and coke (Morgans Spiced and Malibu) so if any of the above makes sense then I'm doing well :D

[Vasudeva]

Just my 2€... :D

I don't think it's likely that there will ever be one definitive console. There will always be a level of competition. I think that some people approach this discussion too much from a PC-angle. Okay, so MS is pretty dominant in the software department, but this has its reasons. To date, other operating systems or program tools have either been less succesful or have not been able to create a better marketing formula. On top of that, the times when it really mattered what brand your PC was are gone. Nearly all of them are clones, with a few eccentric die-hards as an exception (this group seems to be growing though).

Gaming consoles are different, exactly because it's all about games. Previous experiments at integrating PC technology into gaming consoles or vice versa (Sega tried this) failed. And the exact reason why some people don't want an XB is because of the MS-philosophy behind it. The more their monopoly increases, the more smaller companies will earn sympathy with the great public. It's likely that Nintendo will follow the same path as Sega, which will leave the giants Sony and MS pitted against one another, but history has proven that such situations don't last forever.

I'm not sure if I get all this history straight, but I think you'll understand what I'm trying to say. Back in the '80s, Commodore64 was the ultimate gaming computer. So okay, it was sort of a PC as well, but most of them were only used for gaming. Eventually the platform died because newer, fresher brands appeared. Then, in a later stadium, Nintendo came along and pushed Atari out of the market. Sega appeared, and you have to admit that both Nintendo and Sega held their prices at a considerable height for a very long while exactly because they were the only two big fish in the pond left. Feeble attempts of Atari and 3DO to enter the market (again) failed. But then Sony came along as the consoles moved up to 32-bit systems. Sega was eventually driven out as MS came along. And now Nintendo appears to be the loser.

But who knows. Perhaps Pioneer will make a next generation console that sweeps everyone off their feet. Or HP boldly enters the market with a fresh project and good marketing. Anything can still happen. The future isn't fixed.

And if they ever get the idea of "leasing" games, I think that soon enough, a gaming revolution will break out.

Peace,
V.

[lunar]

Great discussion this - can`t resist throwing my views into it :D But it turned out far too long I`m afraid :roll:

Businesses exist to make as much money as they can, short or long term. In a competitive situation, they have to make money by offering a more attractive product than their rivals, at a competitive price, which can be very hard work (I work for a small TV production company and I know about competition). In a monopoly, businesses make the most money by shafting their customers as far as they`ll take it. There are grey areas between competition and outright monopoly, but do I want a single gaming platform (a monopoly on my leisure time)? No thanks.

I find the idea of "pay as you play" on a leased, single gaming platorm absolutely terrifying.

What would we get with this single platform monopoly, even if it took the form of an alliance between corporations? Would we get a finished product for a fair price, which we could go away and be happy with? I didn`t buy a PS2 for more than a year after it came out, because I was happy with ISS Pro Evo 2 on PS1, and played nothing else for a year. Great for me! Bad for Business because I didn`t buy any more games in the period. I wouldn`t be allowed to find such great value for money in a monopoly situation because that`s not most profitable for the corporations, they`d find a way of stopping me doing it. At the moment, because there is competition, they can`t stop me. The companies still make a decent profit if they give gamers what they want, gamers still have choice.

The joy of console games is this: you buy your disc or cartridge, stick it in the slot, and you`re away.You can`t upgrade it, change it, you can`t complicate the matter. There`s no farting about, just the game, just the fun part. You keep going until you`re bored with it, then you get another game. Occasionally you upgrade your hardware. Are we going to get this simplicity in a world of one gaming platform? I don`t think it would be the best way for the "service provider" to make their money, really, so the answer is no, they`d find ways of introducing complications that they can charge us for. Think about how entertainment monopolies work. Think about your PC, Sky TV, how they maximise their profits. They`d push it and wouldn`t stop until we squealed, then they`d give us a rest and do it again. in a manner of speaking.

At least there is some competition in gaming at the moment. There are great games. Publishers and hardware manufacturers have to compete for my money, and this costs them. No wonder they`re talking to each other about they can concentrate on just fleecing me instead.

In a world of a single "game provider", that provider would dictate terms to game designers, according to their own strategies. Designers would have to do as they`re told in order to gain access to the gaming platform. Sure there would have to be games we felt were worth playing, but you wouldn`t get the diversity and choice we`re used to. The "console wars" that have been around for the last few years have ensured a steady supply of original and exciting new ideas, for the simple reason of competition. Sonic, Mario, Wipeout, F-Zero, GTA3, Halo and countless other classics exist, at least in part, as a result of the console wars.

Much like with the internet, there`s always been a kind of anarchy in gaming which must be protected. The corporations don`t own it yet, but they`d love to.

Anyway, off to see if I can get in the Zone.. Goodnight :D

[AmishRobot]

Nick, that link was great. I'll definitely be passing that link along, and I suggest those who haven't read it to do so.

When you tie the TCPA along with the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) and the CDTBPA (Consumer Digital Television and Broadband Promotion Act), you can easily see a near-future where our goal as people will be "consume" rather than "create", and the assumption is that we're all nothing but potential criminals waiting for an opportunity. It's been a trend for the last century and, sadly, it seems inevitable. My personal favorite example is the recommendation by the MPAA recently to plug the "analog hole" in DRM, by putting audible and visible watermarks in media, that will disable any device not authorized for them. For example, you walk into a store while on your cell phone, and the music on a nearby radio automatically ends your call, because the person on the other end hasn't paid their licensing fee to hear it. I'm being serious, and so are they.

And while they may be American laws, the DMCA & CDTBPA will affect Europeans, as they have been drafted to be a template for international law, and are already seriously being looked at as a model for the European community. These laws are designed to strip the rights of citizens and promote the profits of companies. (The CDTBPA is named as such, even) These laws will be abused. The arrest of Dimitry Skylarov proves as much already.

I don't have any direct links to info on the DMCA & CDTBPA readily available, but three good places to start are the Electronic Frontier Foundation (www.eff.org), Slashdot.org (www.slashdot.org), and Salon.com (www.salon.com).

When I bought my pc last year, I paid extra to get Win98 rather than WinME, and I've sworn that's the last version of Windows I'll use. Palladium makes the decision that much easier. I've been in the process of researching a move to Linux for some time now, and hope to be fully switched over by the end of summer. Sadly, it may be in vain if the CDTBPA gets passed, as my pc will be a circumvention device, and therefore illegal.

***
And I hope mobody thought I was being down on Sega. I'm as big a fan as there is without blind loyalty. I do believe that the Dreamcast was probably the best system I've ever owned. The Saturn would have been great if they had used it for what it was good for, namely 2D. And while the SegaCD was an abortion waiting to happen, it did help drive the use of cd's ahead a bit. Like I said, they're innovative. Even when they're shooting themselves in the foot repeatedly. :lol:

God bless the Genesis! :D

[Lance]

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what a great discussion! this may be the only games forum on the internet where you can see an exchange that is all at the same time civilised, intense, and thoughtful. i'm glad to know you guys
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[Wamdue]

Hm, I didnt think of it like that, but you guys are right, monopoly would most definetly kill some parts of the industry. But I cant say I dont want a machine that has access to all titles. About "pay-per-view" strategy for games/music etc.. I think its absurd and very greedy. I dont like monthly fees one bit, but I´ll probably buy xbox live anyway, cause its one definitive cost for all games. Looking at anarchy online, sw:galaxies.. all very good games.The casual gamer doesnt touch these titles, because of the monthly fees, even tho the games are good. I dont think the public will ever accept these kind of payments for such services as only listening to music. Aaah.. hard to make my point.. I mean, Anything that requires something like an subscription must offer something really worth it, for it to be...argh.. nevermind. final word is, Id never pay any subscription for anything that doesnt give me a strong feeling that its worth it.

[AmishRobot]

I think infox had the right idea: multiple consoles so powerful that the minor differences are negligible and more a matter of user preference of various features, and that can easily communicate with each other online. We need some sort of loose standard for online development. That's going to be as important as the pay structure for online to take off. If every brand of cell phone were proprietary and unable to communicate with others, that industry would have died.

As for subscription models, there is one scenario I could stomach. Using music as an example: A single service that allowed me access to all (and I do mean all) previous releases by all labels. This service would allow a large number (200+) of songs I could "check out" at any given time, and would allow me to space-shift those songs to at least one other device, like a portable mp3 player. This is all assuming that a higher quality full rights version would still be available to purchase if I chose to. That's the only scenario I can think of that would benefit both sides.

[FoxZero]

A single service that allowed me access to all (and I do mean all) previous releases by all labels.
ha. yeah right! there are many labels that are dead and you would have to track down a lot of people to get the songs and permission to use them. youd have to have some kind of third party creating this because i dont see record companies forming it on their own as a good idea.


This service would allow a large number (200+) of songs I could "check out" at any given time, and would allow me to space-shift those songs to at least one other device, like a portable mp3 player.
the only way this would work is with proprietary players and formats. you could have a very long encryption key generated every 30 seconds or so to protect the songs from being stolen from the device and from being downloaded to other ones. even with this however, it would only be a few years before computers were powerful enough to crack it. in fact, if you created a very large beowulf cluster composed of very fast computers it could be cracked today, i think. it would certainly be a boost to file sharing programs, heh!

[Nathan Adams]

I'd hardly consider Nintendo the loser now that the xbox and ps2 and gc are here
GC outsellls the Xbox pretty much everywhere (ok someplaces its not by much at all, but others, like Japan, it's killing it) - and Nintendo is still the post profitable games company out there. They've gone on the record saying that they'll take profitability over market share any day.
I don't think we'll ever see Nintendo go software only - it's completely against Nintendo's history. And if there's one company that sticks to its tradition - it's Nintendo. Look at it this way - Nintendo has the #1 hardware and the #3 hardware on the market (gameboy advance and gamecube respectively) - I think that sums it up.

by the way - MS didnt force out Sega - they played dirty (lets see, why was the dreamcast partly developed by MS - then shortly after, MS comes out with a console of their own....hmmm....)
I can see reasons behind the sony-nintendo disagreement there. the PSX came about after an argument between Nintendo and Sony afterall. Plus Nintendo is bed buddies with Matsushita (aka Panasonic, JVC, Victor, Technics, etc.).

MS is indeed trying to weasle its way into the living room - with its tablet pc concepts and all in one entertainment systems (funnily enough "ideas" that Sony has actually released in Japan - over a year ago in fact) I personally would have none of that. I won't touch anything Windows, esp if I have to report to the company constantly...


I've never heard about all this stuff to kill backwards tech - that is INSANE. That's effectively telling people the stuff they paid their earnt money on they can no longer use - thats robbery. I just love how all this american copyright bs is trying to be forced into international law. I can see the motives - so people on the other side of the world cant copy american music or movies. *sigh....
Subscribtion models are a load of crap and it moves into the realm that everyone is presumed guilty and thus must be dealt with before they can do any wrong. "cant give them the ability to play cd's in their computers - because they might use it to pirate" is just the same as "cant let them drive cars because they might run over someone". Stupid logic.

[Nathan Adams]

Now having read the article the Nick put up, I've realised one thing - I'm sooo glad I'm a mac user, which us a platform which is having none of that crap.

Palladium seriously scares me. It scares me alot. It's really moving into 1984-Big Brother style scariness, but in our case - Microsoft and Intel are the Thought Police. What needs to happen, is the kind of details spelled out in articles like that NEED to be known to the mass public - not just the odd person who spends a lot of time on their computer, but to those who just think WinXP is better than WinME because they're told it is. People need to realise the world they're falling into. Spell it out to them - make it clear that they'll be paying repeatedly everytime they put a cd into to listen to it.

I'd personally like to see Microsoft wiped out. I don't care how - natural disaster, mass boycotts, whatever. Because it 's just gone too far already

[Vasudeva]

Every creation carries the seeds of its own destruction. M$, as it's been so eloquently called here, will eventually fall.

An increasing number of people is having their computers protected by firewalls, and is becoming aware of spyware, and that Windows is not the only OS out there. So okay, call me sleazy for using Win95, but market domination still doesn't kill people's ability to reflect. In the wip3out instruction manual, a small maxim was printed somewhere on the top of the pages: "Think - it ain't illegal yet!".

As long as we can think, there is hope.

Peace,
V.

[Wamdue]

Sega is a company in it for the money just as Sony , MS, Nintendo.. just because they are innovative doesnt mean they are some kind of angels.. they used pretty low advertisements during the ps2 release, when the factory that created the processors or whatever got shut down and the process moved somewhere else and this made a shortage of Ps2 supply, Sega put up billboards showing crying children.

[Nathan Adams]

I found those ads hilarious. Corporate jabs at eachother should be encouraged

(slightly off topic) I saw once flicking through an annual seeing a poster from Argentina for a friendly football match between Argentina and Brazil. It had a capital B and then an A sideways (the idea was that Argentina were going to take them up the ass and slaughter them in the match, B being a graphical ass). Well of course Brazil won, and as a response, the Brazillian footbal association (whatever its called) responded with an identical poster - except the A was now a lower case 'a' side on (seen as Argentina going all "limp"). I thought it was the funniest set of posters I ever saw. Those Sega ads reminded me of that.
But that kind of stuff is really unrelated to all this palladium, m$ stuff.

[FoxZero]

Look at it this way - Nintendo has the #1 hardware and the #3 hardware on the market (gameboy advance and gamecube respectively) - I think that sums it up.
thats because nintendo has pretty much a monopoly on handheld game systems, and because there are only 3 major game systems right now. so saying its #1 and #3 doesnt mean that its all well and good for them. still, i think nintendo will make enough money to survive for the time being.