Ship physics for Pulse - Analysing the past

[xdirex]

I'd like to start off by saying that I have been a HUGE Wipeout fan for a very long time now. I initially got hooked on 2097, amazed at the 'next gen' graphics, wicked music, and fluid, fast gameplay that the Playstation was pumping out. I nearly died with anticipation in the leadup to the release of Wipeout 3, and couldn't believe it when it surpassed all of my expectations and delivered even more breathtaking visuals, beautiful music, and most importantly, more amazing controls.

I've since spent a lot of time on nearly every iteration of the Wipeout franchise, from the original, to the N64 version, through to Pure on the PSP. Actually, the only version I haven't spent a huge amount of time in is Fusion, because I've never properly owned a PS2 (I have borrowed from friends quite a bit to play it though).

I was really excited to hear that Wipeout Pure was being developed for the PSP, and that was the reason I bought the system in the first place. Pure is an awesome game, and definitely a great change in direction from Fusion, which I thought was a real departure from the series (enjoyable, but a true 'Wipeout' in my opinion).

So, now that I've learned that Wipeout Pulse is in production, I thought it was about time I put my thoughts forward on how the control system and ship physics have changed over the years.

I like Pure, I really do, but something about the ships handling and physics just doesn't captivate me as much as the classics (I'm mostly referring to 2097 and 3/SE when I say 'classics'). They seem to have lost that fluid, floaty feel that made the handling feel so amazing in the first place. The ships used to really feel like they were gliding (or cutting) through air, like sleek, nimble aerodynamic crafts should.

In Pure, the ships just don't have that floaty, gliding feel to them - they feel more like weighty, non-aerodynamic objects that slide through space as though air resistance and gravity don't really matter.

It's extremely hard to put these sensations into words, but I'm sure most people on this forum who have played the series extensively will know the subtle differences that I'm talking about.

I absolutely love the way the airbrakes work in the classics (2097 & 3). When coming in to a tight corner, you can apply an airbrake, turn, and basically slide sideways into the corner (the ship keeps traveling in a straight line, but the tail sweeps out, pivoting the ship so it's facing into the corner), at which point you'd release the airbrake and shoot off in the direction that your ship is now facing, with barely any speed loss.

Pure doesn't really do this. You don't get that nice, sideways sweeping action. Instead, the airbrakes just reduce the turning circle of the ship, with very minimal swinging of the tail. It's still fast, and fun, but it just doesn't have that nice, plausible, floaty, gliding feel to it (sorry for the overuse of adjectives, but I'm really trying to get my point across(!)).

I've attached a diagram to illustrate what I'm trying to say here. You can see that in the left diagram (2097 & 3), the tail swings out a lot more and the ship gets a nice sideways sweep to it, whereas in the diagram on the right (Pure), the ship basically just turns in a tighter circle. Please note that my comments are generalized for each game, and I'm not referring to any one particular ship/team.

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/4198/wipeouthandlinghb5.gif

Anyhow, I guess what I'm trying to say is - it would be my dream come true if the classic Wipeout physics (the thing that made Wipeout the truly amazing series that it is, above and beyond the graphics and the music) were brought back in Wipeout Pulse.

I know there are reasons for changes in each new game. Things such as accessibility (making the game fun and less frustrating for newcomers), and new features (ship upgrades, gravity on sloped surfaces), but these things should compliment what was already great about a game, not dilute it.

There are a number of other things I'd like to comment on regarding Pulse, but I'll save them for another post, because this one's dragged on long enough and I don't want to take away from my main point here.

Colin and Studio Liverpool, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Please don't take any of my comments negatively - Pure was awesome, from the graphics, to the tracks, to the downloadable content, to the multiplayer, it was quality stuff all the way! :clap

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Also, I've been browsing this forum for many years, so please ingnore the fact that this is my first post and my account was only registered a month ago!

[cybrpnk]

I agree with you here mate. The physics of old, 2097 in particular gave us a greater sense of 'anti-gravity'. I think from Wip3out onwards, controls became 'tighter' so to speak, presumably in a effort to provide tighter and more precise racing. However, I loved the feeling 2097 where you literally was racing on a cushion of air. If Studio Liverpool can successfully replicate this in Pulse and bring so much more to the AG racing table, I strongly believe they have a firmer foundation for the next-gen PS3 WipEout and many more to come...

I have no complaints on Pure, don't get me wrong, it's just a different breed of anti-gravity racing. I have adapted, I have evolved and I am having a blast...

Maybe Studio Liverpool can implement some kind of 'tightness control' level customizer in options, I feel they can cater for the old school and the next generation of anti gravity racers...

[benjahman]

I think you're right in your analyse, the sensations of slides in a turn you had in 2097 (like a soap sliding in a sink) are not the same in Pure but we can't say that it's not "floaty" anymore :naughty , the physics in Pure are really impressive and I don't really know whitch sensation I prefer.
The slides in 2097 are nice because even before to pass a turn, your ship is already facing the next direction to take, but those slides also make you lose time, so...
No, Pure is definitly awesome in everything, I had too many bad surprises in the past with other opus like WO3 and fusion (I'm talking about ship handling of course) so imo, there is nothing to change on the handling for the future Pulse.
Really sorry about my english, it is really awfull.

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[QUOTE=Maybe Studio Liverpool can implement some kind of 'tightness control' level customizer in options, I feel they can cater for the old school and the next generation of anti gravity racers...[/QUOTE]

Great idea orange!

[Sausehuhn]

H xdirex, welcome to the forums... if I can say so ;)

I see your point and I think you described really well what's so different with Pure's handling. And yes, I have to agree that the old handling is indeed more floaty and yes, I want it back.
I like Pure so much (maybe it's the best WipEout ever) and the handling of the game is really good, but after all I like the old handling better.
I played WO3:SE on my PSP and I can tell you the old handling is no problem in terms of playability (the small screen is no barrier for good racing).
Though, as much as I love the old handling, it does have a few bad characteristics like being too floaty sometimes (going off of the track too much) or going up and down again and again between the track and the ceiling within in one second when you bump to much in a low tunnel (hope you know what I mean).
But I'm sure these small problems could be fixed so you get a nearly perfect oldschool handling.

Pure's handling is really not bad, but as you already said it feels really not that real. It doesn't feel like a real craft in the air would react when you compare it to the old WipEouts. It's simply not that smooth.

But if SL makes a step back to the old handling (and I hope they do someday somehow), I'm sure they won't with Pulse. The game uses a modified Pure engine, so no hope for a classic handling. Especially not at this development step.
But maybe for the next WipEout.
I would really like SL to read this thread cause the handling is maybe the element that makes a WipEout good, better or worse.

[andy]

I love the handling in wip3out. ^^ So fluid and fun. It is my favourite wipEout.
I can remember saying pure had lost the fluidity of the classics in a thread about airbraking and side stepping. I know exactly what you are talking about. To me they are just so different in terms of gameplay. I hope the handling characteristics of the old games return but I doubt it will do so in pulse because it uses roughly the same engine and gameplay as pure like Sausehuhn said.

[Mark Of Insanity]

I haven't played Pure, but this sounds like a case of the weight being centred at, well, the centre. In the early WipEouts, the weight was centred at the back, creating more swing through the airbraked corners. I know Fusion had the weight centred at the centre, but I don't know about Pure. (Admittedly I have not played either).

I love the floaty feeling in the original WO. There are a great deal of jumps and it's really comfortable to jump off a hill only to fall back down and bounce up and down again. Elastic! No, but it's great, and quite realistic really. The Anti-Gravity things (the units that keep the racers above the ground) would essentially be pushing down at the ground but because of gravity, it would keep falling down, resulting it perpetual uplift.

Another related comment to do with Mag-Strips. If Magstrips act as I percieve they do (pull the racer closer to the track with magnets) then there would be even alot of forces between the ground and the racer.
Somehow, if this could be noticed and have some notable effect, that would really feel correct. For example, when the magstrips are no longer on the track, the racer would bounce up a slight bit higher than the usual height and then smoothly lower back down to the normal height.

[xdirex]

Thanks for the warm welcome, although I have been lurking around for years!

Yes, Wip3out is also my favourite game in the series (favourite of all time, actually, although followed closely by 2097). In my opinion, they really nailed the handling in that game - I think it had all the good characteristics of 2097's physics, but felt a little more refined, as though there were more factors being counted into each movement.

I appreciate that there were moments when the floatyness could be an issue, like when you're going too fast into the third tunnels on either Sampa Run or Stanza Inter, but this can be avoided by letting up on the thrust a little and adjusting pitch. Also, I realise that the huge boosts off the last jump in P-Mar Project may have been pushing the capabilities of the game engine a little far, but I kind of like the fact that you're pushing the game so far that it doesn't really know how to cope with what you're doing (and slapping your ship back onto the track after taking two big corners 300m in the air is an amazing feeling)! I especially like the swaying movement your ship does when it's so high off the track (P-Mar Project chicanes and the final jump in Hi-Fumi in particular).

The only real issue I have with W30's handling is that very occasionally, when you're going pretty fast and side-scraping around a corner, all of a sudden it will just snag, whereas a similar situation in 2097 would let you get away with it.

In my first post, by no means am I trying to say that every ship in Pulse (I know it's probably a little far on in the development cycle, but I'll use this as an example) should handle like they did back in 2097/2116, but maybe some of the veteran ships of the series could veer more towards this style of handling, while the newer additions to the series could have the more recent Pure style handling, and some ships fit in between.

I found many of the ships in Pure to be quite similar to each other. While the game was nicely balanced so that most teams had a fighting chance (Triakis excluded), I also found that I never really became 100% at home with any one team's characteristics.




I played WO3:SE on my PSP and I can tell you the old handling is no problem in terms of playability (the small screen is no barrier for good racing).

I've recently played through all three PSX Wipeouts on my PSP, and you're right, the small screen doesn't affect the playablity of the classics at all. Although I must admit, when I first got my PSP and Wipeout Pure, the small screen really threw me off - I didn't know if I'd ever be able to get used to it. No problems now though. :+


I haven't played Pure, but this sounds like a case of the weight being centred at, well, the centre...

...If Magstrips act as I percieve they do (pull the racer closer to the track with magnets) then there would be even alot of forces between the ground and the racer. Somehow, if this could be noticed and have some notable effect, that would really feel correct. For example, when the magstrips are no longer on the track, the racer would bounce up a slight bit higher than the usual height and then smoothly lower back down to the normal height.

I think your comments are pretty accurate, the center of gravity does seem to be centered, or even slightly to the front (the way the tail snaps in when you release the airbrakes) in Pure, when compared to earlier titles. I also really like your suggestion about the ships springing back up after the mag-lock forces are released. A nice little detail that would really add to the realism and AG feel.

[yawnstretch]

Have to say I totally agree.

I too love Pure to bits and Im sure pulse will be pretty much the same as Pure.

I remember quality assurance being one of the issues here with extra floatiness possibly leading to glitches.

To me floatiness matters more - I honestly don't care about a few glitches if the ship floats "naturally". Wipeout 1 and 2097 hit the mark with the gravity effects of the ship. A nice jaunty ride.

[Dogg Thang]

In Pure, it seems that the pivot point is at the nose which could just be a camera thing but, when you notice it, it feels like you're steering a tiny spot at the front of the craft and the rest is just swinging around to catch up, rather than feeling like you're steering the whole craft. The handling in Pure, for me, works well but the nose-lock is a little odd.

Having said that, I can't imagine they'll overhaul the physics for Pulse, given that Pure was so popular and messing with physics is a whole can of worms. Yes, I'd love the feel of 2097 back but I'd also be very happy with more of the same.

[rdmx]

Maybe if SL actually wanted to implement 2097 style handling, they could put in a menu after selecting ship asking whether you wanted 'normal' (which is pure style handling) or 'extreme' (which is 2097).

And btw, there are already 6 pulse trailers uploaded on youtube by users ^^.
Me, that's 7.

[Rapier Racer]

I would prefer not returning to classic handling simply because I hate the old style air brakes if you can even call them brakes, hold them for a fraction of a second to long and it pulls your ship into the wall. Thats just what I want my break to do not actually slow me down any just pull me sideways :rolleyes:

[q_dmc12]

But....thats..what..airbrakes do...:frown:

They create drag, slowing down one side while the other keeps going, swinging the ship around.

played any flight sims lately?

[JABBERJAW]

As far as the floaty problems were in those tunnels in wipeout 3 is concerned, it was a pal problem. Pal is slightly floatier than the ntsc versions from the beginning, and that extra float causes those particular problems. The ntsc versions still have plenty of float though. How do I get wo3se on my psp? PM me if you can

[Dav657]

Pm me to if Please about the wipeouts on psp. Anyways i hope they bring back some of the 2097 physics. and combine them with W3 that would be awesome. Doesnt really matter to be to be honest. As long as it has online that would make my day!

[Rapier Racer]

Yes but dmc what I mean is I got no feeling of slowdown on the older games I don't like the way you have to use the brakes on say Wipeout 3 half an hour before you actually make the turn, unlike Pures system which allows for totally last minute decisions/late reactions. Wipeout is not supposed to be a flight sim so I don't want it to act like one, I wanna keep the shall we say unrealistic? effect the breaks have in Pure

[phl0w]

unlike Pures system which allows for totally last minute decisions/late reactions

Either I'm the world's most AG-racer or you haven't piloted a Piranha on Phantom yet. Last minute decisions? If you don't brake early enough, read: into the apex of a corner, you'll meet the wall faster than you can say: unrealistic handling.

[kei]

Hi guys,

It is always difficult to analyse these sort of things without having the actual code available to dig through, but concerning the 'drifting' / side-way behavior of the airbrakes in the older Wipeout's I feel confident enough to make a comment. In Pure the air-brakes seem to add onto the normal steering with the D-Pad or A-Stick giving you a higher reach in the speed of which you're steering. The Z and Y ( in a Y=up world ) orientation of your ship is then adjusted from this variable. In the older Wipeout's it works a little different. The normal steering and air brakes are detached from each other, with the steering influencing your ship over it's Z axis solely, and the air brakes linked to the Y rotation of your ship giving that side-way drifting effect. Now this could actually be exclusively a visual difference, though I wouldn't be surprised if the air-brakes have a slightly different influence on the physics as well. In any case, i do prefer the separated rotation of the ship as seen in the classic games too :)

Also, the difference in floaty-ness / bounciness of the physics between the PAL and NTSC versions of Wip3out is caused by the 10Hz loss which likely equals a identical reduction of physics calculation cycles. Lesser cycles means that you can travel further downwards into the track before you'll be pushed back, and the closer you get to the track the greater this force will be obviously, hence the bouncing. A similar effect can be seen when experiencing frame-rate drops during multiplay in Pure. A solution would be to have the physics calculated with a rate independent of the rendering, but this is definitely more resource intensive then just having one code cycle per frame.

But there might be something else going on as well. This is Pure speculation however :) I suspect that in Pure the physics behave a little different while you're in the air from when you're 'on' the track. More in a fashion of the physics in F-Zero .. only then with the track having a hoover influence range, while the older games followed one physics rule under all circumstances. That way it is easier to counter drops from high altitude without bouncing of the track multiple times, even though this could be considered 'cheating' ( or helping :P ) the physics a little. But since I'm by no means sure about this, maybe one of the Liverpool associates could give some insight :) ?

In any case, interesting discussion, so keep it coming ;)

Later ~
K

[Lance]

''Pure speculation''

:D

[Rapier Racer]

or you haven't piloted a Piranha on Phantom yet

Check my avatar :D

But seriously I have used Piranha but not often I was not thinking about every team in the game, only mine ;)

Have you ever tried using side-shift with that Piranha?

[phl0w]

Have you ever tried using side-shift with that Piranha?

Is this W'O'' or F-Zero? ;)
Side-shifting makes no sense, no matter what physics you apply. So I don't use it.

I did try some last minute decisions though. Which means I used the airbrakes a tad late and saw how I still could make the corner. Didn't work without letting go of the accelerator.
Of course I'm speaking of sharp, narrow corners like on BlueRidge, Chenghou, or Citta.

But as I'm not very good at this game, advice and opinions are much appreciated.

[Mark Of Insanity]

If you have a thruster on each side of a racecraft, that would give it the ability to shift sideways.

[JABBERJAW]

sideshift should only be used for dodging, not helping with turns, It looks completely unrealistic and feels terrible compared to the older braking technique, so a suggestion to either disallow on turns or slow you down some so it wouldn't benefit on the turns compared to just using the brake properly, Or slow you down on turns if you use it while you are turning.

[_Ti__]

I would prefer not returning to classic handling simply because I hate the old style air brakes if you can even call them brakes, hold them for a fraction of a second to long and it pulls your ship into the wall. Thats just what I want my break to do not actually slow me down any just pull me sideways :rolleyes:
But thats the fun, tha chalenge... thats why I prefer the classic handling

[Asayyeah]

Am I the only one to say i am loving the 2 ways of airbrakes ?
Classic ones were a beauty with a perfect neggie set up, also had a trick to get you faster wich was more secret than it is with sideshift on the new Pure airbrakes but still existing ( extremely quickly alternate airbrakes on a straight line and you get it faster, same on a boost pad in a much more impressive way)
And now new airbrakes on Pure , i had few difficulties to adapt myself on them but i really love them especially sideshift techniques ( on boost pads or getting out quickly from a curve), this is tricky to use perfectly but very rewarded. In my opinion, this is the best compromise we can obtain on the psp format without a negcon.

[lunar]

Spot on correct, in my opinion, Arnaud. You`re not the only one. :)

[Mad-Ice]

Yup! Amen to that!!!

[G'Kyl]

Too bad. Because the more people like the sideways shift the better the chances it is going to stay in the series! ;-)
Seriously, though, I love Wipeout for being very simple yet very challenging and both the new airbrake function as well as the barrel roll only complicate the flow of the game. For me, anyways. The same was true for the speed boost after scraping a wall, but we certainly won't see that anymore.

Ben

[cybrpnk]

Agreed with the above post on the barrel rolls complicating the flow of WipEout. Don't know how exactly Studio Liverpool will implement this...don't get me wrong...I don't mind the barrel rolls being there for pilots who need it. It's just that defaulting barrel rolls to pressing left right left or vice versa whilst in the air kind threw me off a few times.

There were many instances where'd I'd get some air and would have to correct myself in the air for a better landing...this correction often saw me pressing left right and sometimes another left...this resulted in me barrel rolling just as i landed and would inadvertently stuff up my landing rather than correct it...hmmm. I dunno, I don't see a need for barrel rolls...personally.

And...sideways shift...never used it...never saw a use for it...WipEout to me like in the old school wipEouts was all about finding the right line...out in out cornering...and this could be done 2 ways, precision tap brake turn into corner accelerate, or slam airbrake, slide into corner form the outside to inside (apex of turn), them slam on the accelerator...

It's all about speed speed speed...too many complications like sideways shifts and rolls kinda complicates matters. I understand SL's attempts to mix things and change things up a bit. But...sometimes, why fix perfection when it wasn't broken...

[andy]

I've never been too fond of the barrell roll. I say get rid of barrel rolls and bring back hyperthrust. And I prefer the old airbrake but I dont think they would work too well with the L & R buttons like it did with L2 & R2 on the playstation.

[cybrpnk]

YEAH!!! Hyperthrust...that was pretty cool...kinda like NOS for anti-gravity...

For the PSP I was using a 1 button airbrake scheme for awhile thinking L and R airbrake wouldn't be practical for a PSP...but I wasn't doing too well...

So I switched back to the old 2 button airbrake scheme and I use the analogue stick to steer...kinda works better...:D

[Rapier Racer]

I disagree with bringing back hyperthrust, with the barrel roll system you actually have to do something to earn your little speed boost hyperthrust on the other hand is an easy, lazy and simple push of a button for instant speed, you can't possibly do it wrong and pay a price for unskillfulness can you? Then theres the system itself, currently I believe, assuming no energy is absorbed a Triakis could pull off more barrel rolls then lets say an Icaras due to shield strength however there are only limited tracks where a Triakis/Tigron could really exploit this system. Assuming it was implemented the same way hyperthrust would give a huge unfair advantage to ships with the highest strength shields since they could boost for much longer around the track and just like that you have the issue of superships and an unbalanced game again

[q_dmc12]

But...wouldn't it take more thrust/boost to move a heavier ship(triakis) and less thrust/boost to move a lighter one(Icarus)..?;)

[andy]

It was very strategic I thought. But you would have to bring back the pits to keep the balance. That way, you wouldnt have people h thrust, absorb, h thrust, etc.

[Rapier Racer]

But...wouldn't it take more thrust/boost to move a heavier ship(triakis) and less thrust/boost to move a lighter one(Icarus)..?;)

Theoretically yes but I don't recall seeing such a system in the past, maybe I overlooked it I've not had a good shot at WO3 for ages :banzai

[JABBERJAW]

The barrel roll has stupid implementation. Gee lets destroy the analog stick or dpad as quickly as possible. left brake, right brake left brake would be better. Using hyperthrust was not skilless, it was a fine balance between thrust and energy. Barrel roll isn't much different except it destroys the controller. How fast you go shouldn't be decided by if you are good at street fighter.
What I really want is a good floaty feel with smooth cornering, not freaking fzero. Just have the sideshift slow you down on turns more than real airbraking, that should satify people since you could still dodge weapons the same(that is what it is for). I think most agree that brake tapping for speed boost is absolutely retarded, as well as wall scraping, even though we all do it for faster speed. I don't want those bugs back either.

[infoxicated]

I have to agree about the Barrel Rolls - they're **** and I wish they'd never ended up in the game. I've intended to compete in virtually all of Arnaud's challenges, but opted out of those that require stupid amounts of barrel rolls per lap... end result is that I've hardly taken part in any of the challenges due to them.

[Sausehuhn]

On PS3 there should be a special button for barrel rolls (if they return again), cause the PS3 controller offers two more buttons and so there is no chance of making a barrel roll without the intention to do so.

That will at least solve the left-right-left/right-left-right problem, won't it?

[username]

Im not sure i liked the idea of barrel rolls - they were too 'not wipeout' if you know what i mean, With pure i felt i anst playing wipeout, but rather something not as good. I prefer the pit lane, and the hyperthrust.

[q_dmc12]

On PS3 there should be a special button for barrel rolls (if they return again)

Ahh, so they are doing away with them..;)

[Rapier Racer]

Well they need to find another way of giving extra speed off jumps and possibly other LIMITED areas of the track, maybe hold a button that charges a boost up when you start falling off the jump, being able to boot anywhere at any time is in my opinion is nonsense and as far as I can tell won't be making a return for Pulse, good.

[Asayyeah]

I have to agree about the Barrel Rolls - they're **** and I wish they'd never ended up in the game. I've intended to compete in virtually all of Arnaud's challenges, but opted out of those that require stupid amounts of barrel rolls per lap... end result is that I've hardly taken part in any of the challenges due to them.
This is exactly the same for my mate Anthony , he can't stand barrel rolls, moreover he adds that without them, he could be really better in term of highscores.
You know my point on them : i like that technique that adds a new dimension to the game on the jumps, especially when you do that with internal view.


The barrel roll has stupid implementation. Gee lets destroy the analog stick or dpad.
agree with nub but not with Dpad since i adopt a new way of doing the BR, sorry i don't have the words to describe that and i let Stin explaining it ( if he reminds that ! ;) )

[Sausehuhn]

Just a simple question:
Is there a difference in playability between the original black and then the colored versions of the PSP? Cause the black PSP's buttons are deeper and do not stick out that much compared to the other models.
I have that feeling that your fingers glide away easier with the black PSP, therefore you don't have that much grip on the buttons which makes the game a bit more complicated (especially on barrel rolling).

That's just a thought that went trough my mind.

[G'Kyl]

Just a thought... what about a boost whenever you get a perfect landing, i.e. no hard bumps or flying so long it costs you a lot of speed? I'm not sure this is a sound idea, but it would take the annyoing left-right-left thing away.

Ben

[Mad-Ice]

How fast you go shouldn't be decided by if you are good at street fighter.


Do you mean in terms of how fast you are with smashing buttons?!

Isn't that what Wipeout is all about: being fast in smashing buttons at the right time. Not thinking about NeGcon here!!!

I personally really like the idea of barrel rolling. I think it is a skill too that certainly is futuristic! You really have to study the tracks so good in understanding where you can BR and with what kind of speed.

[q_dmc12]

you can actually br anywhere. I have tried some unlikely places to attempt it and if you are good enough;) you can pull it off - namely arnaud ....most of the time. (lately he has been slacking off:turd )

[Asayyeah]

Héhé Ben you right, multi BRs everywhere have its own risk: but if there isn't any difficulties , where's the pleasure? :D


Just a simple question:
Is there a difference in playability between the original black and then the colored versions of the PSP? Cause the black PSP's buttons are deeper and do not stick out that much compared to the other models.
between my pink & black , i got no differences at all , the buttons looks the same in term of size and 'touch feeling' , same with the DPads. Possibly other models are differents but not here.


Do you mean in terms of how fast you are with smashing buttons?!

Isn't that what Wipeout is all about: being fast in smashing buttons at the right time. Not thinking about NeGcon here!!!

I personally really like the idea of barrel rolling. I think it is a skill too that certainly is futuristic! You really have to study the tracks so good in understanding where you can BR and with what kind of speed.

we don't smashed buttons actually Al, just put your big thumb on the dpad and do like you could do if you wanted to clean quickly dapd with your thumb, this is not smashing cause your thumb is still ON the dpad.
This is nearly the same i am using my thumb on the Neggie with nose up & nose down.
I also agree with your last part Matthijs, 20 months i got that game, and i still can find new location to get turbos or BR , this game is CRAZY but i LIKE it :+

[JABBERJAW]

I didn't say anything about smashing buttons. I just don't like the street fighter move that's required for the barrel roll. I know how to do them, just don't like the manuouever.

[username]

yeah the barrel roll is not my favorite of all turbo methods, I prefer hyperthrust - you have to pay with energy that cant be replaced until the pit lane, and has a cool white effect on the thrust exhaust!

BR was unrealistic, and not wipeout imo

[andy]

I second username. Also, I saw wipeout as quite a serious game and when you see stuff spinning, it doesn't quite look possible.

[Mark Of Insanity]

I think that barrel rolls make no sense physically. Why would a barrel roll give thrust, at least without a complex system that could easily be replaced with a simple, non-rolling system from previous games.

I would like to see perhaps mild acrobatics but with some more realistic purpose, such as making it through a complex turn.

[RJ O'Connell]

Do what you want with barrel rolls, but please leave the side-shift feature in. Pure had many, many S-curve complexes and that feature was usually the difference between a PL or three bounces off the wall.

[q_dmc12]

i.e. Karbonis, Citta:blarg, Manor Top...

[RJ O'Connell]

^ Don't forget Chenghou Project, Blue Ridge, Sinucit...

[q_dmc12]

Chenghou is one of my favorites, the hairpin is well placed - Blue Ridge and sinucit? Oops, forgot those.;)

[Rapier Racer]

Where abouts on Sinucit is it necessary to use side shift?

[q_dmc12]

On the split loop:



/¯¯¯¯\
| \
O >---- >--------
| /
\____/

[Rapier Racer]

Oh, its not really you know ;)

[RJ O'Connell]

I personally think you'd need it in the last section before the jump/finish line. There's a long left hairpin, then a right, and then a really quick left-right before you hit the jump.

[conrad]

I had no idea that the barrel roll was so unpopular (judging from this thread anyways).

I personally love being able to link a couple of turbos together cleanly and quickly through a tight circuit.

One thing I would change is that the boost starts are really easy in pure, I would probably want something along the lines of the PSone versions starting boost.

[andy]

so would I but the psp hasnt got a rumble to tell you when you're at boost start revs.

[Asayyeah]

Turbo start easy... yes if you are talking about 'common' turbo start but i am not sure you know there's a real big 'turbo start' which is purely so difficult to do. For example triakis may have a better start than an AG Sys or Assegai if this tricky TS is done ( even if he is 2nd on grid).
You can hear difference by a different sound the engine is doing, it's like a double 'Whooosh' in a row.
I'd like to see the return of the countdown ( 3,2,1, goooo ala W3O) with the same way of TS we saw on Pure but they should increase the speed of the hard but rewarded mega Turbo-Start : something really noticable and give a real clear advantage

[xdirex]

As much as I like the tapping method of turbo start that was found in all of the original games, I really like the fact that Wipeout Pure's has been made easier.

Why?

Because after 10 years of playing Wipeout, can you imagine how many times we've all tapped the X button in preperation for a turbo start? I work on computers for a living (Graphic Designer) and I'm starting to realise that all of these fast tapping motions that we all do on keyboards, gamepads, mouses, etc, does have an effect on your hands, and can introduce that nasty term RSI (or carpal tunnel syndrome). I don't want to sound like I'm whining, but I'm getting to the point where I need to be quite conscious of this. :cold

Anyway, it's not like the old method was really any harder (WO1 excluded), it's just different, really.

[RJ O'Connell]

For Pure, and Fusion, it was well too easy to turbo-start.

There needs to be a much smaller timeframe to decide whether or not you rocket to the front or just get off the grid normally. In other words, make it harder and more rewarding!

There's my $0.02 USD.

[lunar]

I like mad hardcore stuff, like the WipEout start system, but I wouldn`t want such insanity in Pulse. I like the Pure system - the turbo start is easy, but still missable in multiplayer when you`re under pressure. And there`s a super-turbo start which you can get if you guess the timing, but you risk a stall. Maybe this feature could have been made slightly more obvious, or there could be a slight variation in quality of turbo starts depending on how fast you react.

[Asayyeah]

I agree with you stephen a slight more obvious turbo starts idem for a variation between them .

[RJ O'Connell]

I like Lunar's suggestion the best. :D

[rageagainstgeorge]

I didn't like the barrell rolls either. They didn't seem to fit, if you know what i mean.

I also love the Hyperthrust from W3O. It required good sense to use it well. It's probably the reason i'm shite at W30...

[RJ O'Connell]

Hyperthrust: I'll agree with you there. The trick is knowing when and where and how long to use it, given each speed class and what track and ship you use. Then in Single Race mode, you pretty much have to either 1) not get hit by enemy fire or 2) pit every lap if you do to get the most of the system.

Personally, hyperthrust didn't fit very well either. That's just my $0.02, but hey.

[Chill]

When scraping along side walls... in Pure, it only slowed you down, which was great, but you stuck to the wall. I would've thought that something would of been made of counter-act with this. Bouncing off of the wall would've of been good, like W3O, but without it speeding you up, ya? ;)

[Dogg Thang]

I was playing the original WO yesterday and I noticed a huge difference in how it works. Now I noticed it in Pure before but it really hit home going back to the original - in Pure, the movement of the ship is rooted to a spot just in front of the nose. Everything rotates around the nose of the ship. It actually looks quite unrealistic once you notice it. It's really like you're flying a tiny dot with a ship hanging on to the back.

In the original WO, it is almost impossible to ascertain any root point. So the ship seems to be genuinely free-floating. It can move all around the screen.

I'm wondering - is that just the camera position creating that feeling? Is it that the camera in Pure is rooted to that nose spot whereas the camera in the early WO games has more freedom? Or is the 'flying a tiny spot on the nose' theory actually the way it works?

[q_dmc12]

umm....yes?

[Frances_Penfold]

I enjoy the barrel roll mechanic in Pure but worry about the extent of its use in Pulse. As other have said, at high speed classes good players can do it so many times, that only a smallish number of vehicles become viable for high-level competition.

Anything that shoehorns players into a small subset of vehicles is bad for racing games.

A larger issue is that it could irritate casual gamers much like "snaking" did in Mario Kart DS. Snaking and barrel rolls are pretty analagous, each requiring skill and obviously building on an intended game mechanic, but, taken to the maximum, end up dominating the gameplay.

I really think that average gamers would be PISSED to see experienced players barrel rolling past them during the first lap of every race.

[Dogg Thang]

At least barrel rolls were limited by shields and looked cool. Snaking in MK had no such limitations and looked ridiculous.

[Frances_Penfold]

But like the barrel roll, snaking (back and forth mini-turbos on a straight away) limits the number of ships you can effectively use, requires skill to implement and is the "logical end result" of an intended game mechanic.

Comparisons to Mario Kart aside, there's already a sense among franchise veterans that the barrel roll is overused and obnoxious in Pure. Newcomers will be even less enthusiastic, I suspect.

We'll find out soon enough! I myself don't mind the barrel roll much, and know that Pulse will be my favorite game of the year :)

[Cannon_Fodder]

Out of interest, how did you decide that franchise veterans find the barrel roll obnoxious? It seems a little like a sweeping generalisation to me. Sure, there are people that don't like it, but I've seen plenty of people comment that they do like it.

Or do you really mean that you find it rubbish? If so, why is that?

[infoxicated]

I think it sucks because I don't see the connection between doing a barrel roll and getting a boost. It's an anomaly in a universe that has (despite the anti-gravity thang) has at least tried to keep some grounding in reality.

Plus it was ill thought out - the fact that you can do more barrel rolls in a Triakis than you can in an AG Systems means that the former becomes the dominant ship in a barrel roll intensive course and the latter becomes useless on tracks that require more than a couple of barrel rolls per lap.

The barrel roll also turned some of the classic tracks into a complete joke - Porto Kora in particular just becomes a barrel roll festival that feels more like a comedy cuts Crash Team Racing kind of experience than the reasonably sophisticated experience I'd normally expect from WipEout.

Although the barrel roll flaws have been addressed somewhat for Pulse, the implementation and saturation of barrel rolls in Pure is one of the reasons I wont be going back to the game when Pulse comes out.

At the end of the day, I don't think it added much - if anything - to the game. Also, if someone was trying to come up with a game mechanic designed to break the console it was being played on, they couldn't have come up with something more destructive than "frantically waggle fragile analogue nub", other than maybe "headbutt the screen as hard as you can for a speed boost".

[Task]

Wipeout:Headbutt - comes with motion-sensing attachment for PSP-headbutting speed boosts! Let's be fast! And buy new PSPs!

So far, I've found that very little in WO:Pure has the solid grounding in physics that I'd hoped to see. Get hit by a rocket from behind and you come to a sudden stop? Get hit by another weapon from behind and start to MOVE BACKWARDS?!? It's like explosions create a vaccuum that you move into or something. I don't know what it is, but it's not physics. There's the effect of gravity on banked corners, but there's no centripetal force AFAICT.
At least for Barrel Rolls I can assume that we're being rewarded by the racing system for "looking cool" and entertaining the crowds. Just like the track enables the weapons already loaded on board, the track can enable an instant speed boost on landing.

Yeah, definitely reaching, but at least I can get there. Still prefer Hyperthrust.

[Dogg Thang]

Although the barrel roll flaws have been addressed somewhat for Pulse

Are you allowed say what's changed?

You're absolutely right about the logic of the barrel roll - there is none. I'm actually slightly surprised it was kept in Pulse. I think I'd prefer a more controlled system of boosts - like every craft gets 2 to use at its disposal. But then, that wouldn't really add anything to the normal pick-up system, which works fine.

There is something slightly bizarre about the difficulty in the physics in general since the game moved from PS1. I'm not a developer or programmer so I have no idea how different systems affect things but almost everyone agrees that the physics in 2097 and 3 were just lovely. Now, they came with other problems - being able to fly through scenery for example. But in terms of ship handling everything felt right. Fusion dropped all the floatiness completely and Pure got some of it back but in a way that is just ever so slightly off. At higher speeds, serious cracks in the physics began to appear.

I wonder if developers have more realistic physics engines at their disposal that actually makes control far more complicated than it has to be? It's like the first three games worked on certain reliable behaviours rather than actual physics.

[Frances_Penfold]

How did you decide that franchise veterans find the barrel roll obnoxious? It seems a little like a sweeping generalisation to me. Sure, there are people that don't like it, but I've seen plenty of people comment that they do like it.


Sorry for the over-generalization. Reading through this thread convinced me that lots of Wipeout fans really dislike the barrel roll move, though it's definitely true that some do appreciate it.

Myself, I don't think about the physics that much, for better or worse (probably worse). I AM worried that the barrel roll mechanic makes the gameplay unbalanced and that this will become much more of a factor for Pulse, given its online play.

[Colin Berry]

I'm not sure if it makes it unbalanced, except some people cant do it and some can, but then some cant take corners without clipping the wall, some can. Its a skill albeit a different one to the normal racing skill set. It is less of a divider in Pulse though as the boost received from a barrel roll has been reduced (as indeed has the boost from a trubo start), plus the energy drained from performing one is now a % not absolute figure meaning each ship can in theory perform the same amount.

[Rapier Racer]

I love the barrel roll :banzai what else are you going to do on a long drop? Also adds to your overall strategy you could be on lap 5 going off a final drop before the line and are running low on energy do you do the roll and loose even more energy increasing the risk of elimination or do you hold off? Chenghou project is a good example there is a drop near the line with a weapon pad on the left sometimes I find myself slowing down a little so I can drop onto the pad and absorb a weapon whilst the ship that was right behind me barrel rolls off and takes the position from me, I'd rather loose 2 points on a guy than end up in pieces and loose 8. It would all depend on the points at the time as well if it was tight I'd probably take the risk in the above situation hoping no last minute quake is going to come along and get me. Intensive racing people!!

Hyperthrust I liked it but compared to the barrel role system is cheap in my opinion and requires no skill, press the button instant boost

[RJ O'Connell]

Personally, I like just having the turbo boost and speed-up pads.

Call me old-fashioned, but it just seems to make more sense to me. :p

[JABBERJAW]

deleted

[G'Kyl]

Al, even though I agree with you on some points, one has to consider how games and gamers develop. And there's also the fact that nowadays games need to appeal to a bigger crowd of people. The freaky great physics are no good if casual gamers don't get it and thus won't give your game the chance it deserves. I bet good money that if Sony were to go back to WO 1, 2 or 3 a hell of a lot of people would complain about the physics the same way we miss the "good ol' days".

Also, since acceleration in general has been improved in Pulse and Phantom is a LOT faster (partly because of the reason mentioned and partly because the graphics have been improved), I don't miss a quicker start. It's still a turbo start and that's fine with me.

Honestly, I haven't yet noticed the fact that barrel rolls now suck a percentage of the overall shield power, but I think that's just the right way to go in order to make ships more balanced. Good thinking there, Colin an the rest! :)

And now back to practice. I haven't won a single frigging Pahntom race on Pulse's hard difficulty setting so far. Granted, I focused on Grids, Zone and anything else for the first few hours, but still... this IS "hard", alright. ;) Plus, as for the few tracks that come with the Preview code, they are more technical than the average Pure course.

Ben

[infoxicated]

...
Al, there's a good reason that certain suggestions on this board have made it into the game in some way or other, and plenty of yours have not.

You address people like they're beneath you. Either change your approach or just STFU already, because you only serve to piss people off with the armchair game designer attitude.

[Colin Berry]

I really don't get it now. I'm not a real fan of barrel rolls(though comparing it to crash team racing is insulting even to it ;) } NOw it has a slow boost. The only thing cool about it was the fast boost, and a slow turbo start really sucks. The only game that had slow turbo starts were wo1 and fusion. If barrel roll is going to stay in, just allow one or two rolls per lap or something like that, instead of slowing it down and making it boring. keeping it at one or two will make you decide the best place to do it. Pure was only fast because of these rolls, and it was the only way to keep things moving in phantom. It was already on the edge of being "too slow" at phantom speed. I love the other stuff put in, but this really sucks.

for the love of something do not slow down the barrel roll if this is the lone speedup(meaning no hyperthrust).

I have no idea why the physics cannot be as good as a 9 year old system because someone just wants to make it different. In this case different is not better, although it seems that pulses physics are starting to get back to the roots.

I have to reiterate that slowiing down the turbo start is freaking stupid. Why? all the good versions of wipeout had fast starts and it got you going right off. Slowing down the barrel roll(if this is the main turbo feature like pure) is also very very bad. There is no reason for this, just limit the rolls.

WHY NOT JUST BRING BACK HYPERTHRUST LIKE PEOPLE WANT.

oh my eyes, the caps, it burns...
Hyperthrust conflicts with the absorb sytem which we think is far preferable to pit-lanes and a system worth keeping. Also the hyperthrust system is somewhat flawed as it by logical extension meant you had to pit in each lap and thus meant the pit-lane actually became part of the main track making the normal part of the track redundant. I'm sure some PEOPLE WANT hyperthrust back, I'm also sure some dont. Fortunately in my position I get to make the choice as to what I think is best for the game and make calls accordingly (or sometimes just decide what I prefer and go with that as long as its justifiable) not everyone is going to be happy but I can live with that no game or piece of music or film or book or tv show is universally loved.

The Barrel Roll is not a 'slow boost' now it has just been reduced from Pulse where it was excessive. The turbo start has been reduced more than the barrel roll, but we feel it works well. In online multiplayer the difference between winning and losing should not be all about who did or didnt get the turbo start, if it is too excessive it can cause such division in the race. As such its been reduced so that it is effective but not decisive. We do not want races decided in the opening 5 seconds. Its enough to give you a push off the start line, but not enough to decide a race. We did toy with removing it altogether as this was some peoples preference however we did not go down that route in the end.
Remember, no game decisions are made for the hell of it, perhaps before judging it, wait and see it (in its final state).

[cybrpnk]

and wait i can...

have trust in you colin and SL that pulse is gonna rock!!! like i said in another thread...so eager for this game that i already tried to preorder it but its 'not on the system' at my local games store...

love the changes so far like the convexed hud, tracks, customizable ships and custom mp3s just to name few...

screenies are wicked but i know in the case of WipEout, as always, static screens do not do it justice...

now all we need is a release date for the ps3 WipEout, and i don't mean HD, so i have a REAL excuse to plonk down my hard earned cash to invest in a ps3...and of course bragging rights to all my xbox fanboy mates who always say...'man, ps3's got nothing against the 360'...then i can retaliate with a...'it doesn't have WipEout now does it???'...:D

[lunar]

I`m kind of on the "barrel rolls are too much in Pure" side of things, such as Foxxy described, but I also completely see RR`s point above, about how it increases the strategy in the game. I think SL proved, in Pure, that they know how to follow the middle-way and to make a balanced, interesting game. I agree with Colin`s argument as to why the barrel roll/absorb system is better than hyperthrust. It`s genius for multiplayer. At the end of the day we all have to accept that SL are making a game to sell a million, not a bespoke personal game for any of us, and that the old games are the old games and that type of ship handling probably isn`t coming back. It`s marvellous that some of WZ`s concerns and suggestions influence the game design. We may be the most hardcore bunch of testers the game could have, but we`re a very small part of the market :D

[JABBERJAW]

I'll keep further game design comments to a minimum(just suggestions). I am not trying to put people down, sorry if anyone took it like that. I'll certainly play the game before any judgements on it. My frustrated attitude I guess is just begging for a classic wipeout feel, which hasn't been put in since wipeout 3.

[Frances_Penfold]

It is less of a divider in Pulse though as the boost received from a barrel roll has been reduced (as indeed has the boost from a trubo start), plus the energy drained from performing one is now a % not absolute figure meaning each ship can in theory perform the same amount.

This sounds like a very smart approach for keeping the barrel roll mechanic intact for Pulse, given the online play.

Making the energy drain a percentage means that every vehicle can participate in barrel rolling on an equal footing-- hopefully a number of ships will be viable in online competition :beer

September can't come soon enough! (Well, for Wipeout... I'm kinda enjoying summer otherwise :p )

[RJ O'Connell]

Yes - the thing I really hate to see is a function of the game that basically renders some craft absolutely useless (Harimau, anyone?) and hopefully this new BR mechanic works out fine.

[zargz]

well I'm relieved the thrust is not back and although I didn't play pure yet I'm not that found of the idea of the barrel roll ...
mostly coz it doesn't seem 'real' (imagine a F1 car or a NASCAR doing it ) and the ' tekken combo' involved to acheave it. :-
I'd rather have the Boost as a weapon as in wipEout ( imo still the best wo, SE close 2nd coz of the thrust. as said before I haven't played Pure yet )
Or just put some fat quadruple speed pads on a well chosen sraights and before turns or hairpins as at the Silverstream hairpin! http://www.geocities.com/zargz/leenden/ninja2.gif
okay just checked it's only double ...

[rageagainstgeorge]

I disagree about Hyperthrust conflicting with the absorb system. It would mean that every race became the ultimate compromise:

Do i go for broke with using all the weapons and hyperthrust at the expense of shields?

Do i absorb all the weapons and continually use hyperthrust?

Do i only use some weapons and absorb others for hyperthrust when i need to?

It would make for some very close online races if people chose different strategy's.

[Task]

It conflicts because if you can turn a weapon into energy and energy into speed, then what's the difference between a weapon pad and a speed pad? One becomes pointless, likely the speed pad. Suddenly the "faster path" on the track is the one where you hit all the weapon pads and ignore all the speed pads.

Definite problem.

I'm sure SL is totally correct in that you can't do a Hyperthrust system with the absorb mechanic, and I definitely love the absorb mechanic.

Oh, and zargz: Boost is a weapon in Pure. 8 )