is pure wipeout?

[username]

i know this is a bit of a negative thing to say but does the new wipeout pure seem like well wipeout? dont get me wrong the game is absolutly brilliant but it just dosent feel like 2097 or 3.02 (wip3out).
also i might add that fusion really didnt feel like wipeout ( incase you thought that i liked fusion more than pure! )

i really cant find out what is missing.... the ships and tracks are exellent along with the designs... what can it be? does anyone else feel like this, or is it just me?

[Lance]

.
3.02?
.

[username]

take a look at the disc- it says:

WIP3OUT
^(v: 3.02) >text reads from left to right) >disc rotates in a clockwise dir..... ect (anyways: back to topic lance!) (ive always wonderd what it would be like to say that) lol

[element42]

what can it be? does anyone else feel like this, or is it just me?It's not just you. What is it? In short: different physics, no negcon, silly special moves. And the fact that it's played on a little screen. This has been discussed elsewhere so I won't go into more detail. :p

[Sausehuhn]

It's the handling for me. The ships are moving totally different. There's no bouncing (or just a bit), the ships are going totally differnt into curves; their angle doesn't change that much and there's also no wallscraping.

It definitely feels more like WipEout than Fusion ever did - but has nothing to do with e.g. Wip3out except Icaras, Assegai and Goteki.

Hope that will cange in the PS3 WipEout. They have to find a good mix of the old handling and Pure's one.

[infoxicated]

The difference for me is that Pure feels like the ships are suspended by a bungee cord from high above the track. They can bounce and hit the ground, but for the most part they don't feel like they are generating an anti-gravity field that keeps them in the air. Also the air doesn't seem to have any affect on them. If I'm travelling at high speed in Wipeout 3 and I lift the nose the aerodynamic affect of air passing under the ship cause it to lift from the track. In Pure the ship just seems to pivot without there being any noticable aero affect no matter what speed I'm going at.

If you switch between Pure and regular 3 (SE's floatyness is a bit too pronounced) it's a good demonstration of what I'm getting at. Whether that's what is really going on, I don't know, but visually and in the "feel" of the craft it certainly seems that way.

[Distrupto]

PurE is less WO for a couple of reasons:

1.Natural techological advancements in the stabilisation systems have made the ships less floaty and bouncy. In 3SE, it seems hyperthrust and more powerful engines to those of 2097 went ahead and stabilisation systems were left behind in the dust.

2.Also, invasions by Coke and Puma have eaten away at the WO-ness. Now the japanese version is one big Coke ad with Coke everywhere. The Coke menu skins, Coke-filled tracks, Coke ship liverlies, Coke ships and other Coke ads have totally spoilt it. Puma is almost as bad and Medievil would be too, except it's easily destroyable.

3.Different physics engine and new special moves, like barrel-roll, sideshift and freaky flipping in place of hyperthrust and flying.

4.The Omega Syndrome. Those wild hallucinations known as "Paris Hair" and "Burgertown". Luner's videos explain it all.

[username]

i agree with you very much so disrupto on your 3 first reasons- very true. i have seen lunars videos and even saved them to my pc now! i thought that they loked very good though. especially paris hair and klan1- but they are still not really wipeout. they are more like killer loop (if you have seen that game it is like a copy of wipeout only it is all tracks like th omega pack).

i wonder if they could do a download that makes the ships handle like 2097? good idea i think but way too much bother.

[lunar]

I don`t think you get to really see the characteristics that make Pure a real Wipeout game until you get to Rapier and Phantom class. On Phantom you are truly flying, with more limitations though than in some of the older games. All the criticisms of Pure in comparison to the old games are valid, but I think the way the ships wobble from side to side and lift off on Phantom convinces me that I`m flying rather than just driving. I have the feeling of being in control of something that doesn`t want to be controlled. When you`re going down the main straight at Vineta rocking about wildly there`s no way you`ve got wheels. Wobble is the new float, in some ways. ;)

[/URL][URL="http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2694"]here (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/%5Burl=http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2694%5Dhere%5B/url%5D) is the old thread, or one of them, where we discussed all the new moves ad nauseam. ;)

Yes, Pure is different, but whether it qualifies as wipeout for anyone really is a matter of taste, and of what the old games were to you and what made you like them, and probably boils down to whether you enjoy the sensation of this game enough, or not. I agree with those who say that there should be more aerodynamics in the future games - but Pure would be fairly unplayable if the ships flew even more at Phantom class. I would prefer it if the ships didn`t bottom out so much and had more of a cushioned feeling - but for me there`s enough AG in Pure for it to be called wipeout. To me it has the je ne sais quoi of the genre, or I wouldn`t be playing it any more. :)

[eLhabib]

+1 to all you said, lunar.

[username]

as lunar said: 'I would prefer it if the ships didn`t bottom out so much' totoally agree with ya there mate!

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

OK, you've all established how pure is differen't but this begges the question from some who has only played pure, like me, to someone who has played all the series, like all of you.

Which one do you think is better?




thanks elhabib

[eLhabib]

you simply cannot say which one is better. for me, purE is the best wipEout so far, but for others it's not. it's down to personal preference. (although I'm pretty sure everyone will agree it is definitely better than fusion)

[yawnstretch]

I too agree with what Lunar has said.

Pure is definitely a brilliant game - but the floatiness of wipeout 1 is ALLLMMmmmost there - but not quite. Granted the varying speed classes and other additions to Pure would make this extremely difficult to achieve and I do remember a comment from Colin saying that the bounciness of earlier wipeout games wouldn't pass the Q&A these days as clipping would be visible.

Please God they bring out wipeout again for the PS3 - Id definitely buy another console just for the next in the series - and they seem to be back on track with pure. One more nudge in the right direction for bounciness (DONT GO TOO FAR THOUGH! ;) and we'll be set.


/back to wipeout Pure!!

[Seek100]

In a word, no. In more words that just 'no', pure is not wipEout because it lacks the most crucial element of any wipEout game - the handling, 'bounce' isn't real, like Infox says it is more like the craft are hanging on bungee cords, the craft don't even roll - has anyone actually watched other craft 'turn' on the track, they move like cars! Seriously, they 'yaw' from side to side, which in an airborne craft is pretty damn near useless for big turns. In proper wipEouts they would bank to the side and then pitch up to turn - like a plane does IRL. (Yes I know many planes can yaw, but they don't use it for big maneouvres).

The handling mechanics themselves are completely different - the 'feel' of the craft, they feel like a car that's being held off the track surface, they're virtually incapable of overcoming inertia, they slide rather than turning into a bend (like a car understeering and oversteering) and they accelerate like a Morris Minor. Also they are still stuck to the track, watch when the track banks to one side, your craft will stay level with the track rather than level with the 'ground' below, in wipEout 1 on Altima, the huge sweeping right turn halfway through the track, on that your craft would become completely out of line with the track and you would slowly fall to the right hand side of the track due to gravity, on pure, nothing like this happens, your craft tilts to stay in line with the track.

This coupled with the ridiculous weapons-heavy gameplay inherited from Fusion - it's been toned down a tiny bit, makes pure for me, Fusion SE, tolerable as a racing game, but it's no wipEout.

Everyone's obsessed with 'bounce' as some intangible symbol of what made wipEout, it's not, it was the whole handling package, wipEout was like racing in planes, Fusion was like racing cars, pure is like racing cars strapped to a bungee cord.

[username]

for me it is a match between 2097 and pure. i think pure just beats it.
this is the order how i would put it in:
pure, 2097, 3, 1, fusion

[Jittery-Joe]

I would say 3 is the best of the lot so far, but I haven't played 1 and 2097...
Pure seems to be more a spiritual successor to three (rather than a literal one), and Fusion seems to be from a different series of games, to be honest...

[judus]

.. on pure, nothing like this happens, your craft tilts to stay in line with the track.


A valid point. I'm sure that every one notices that the crafts don't have any "tilt" while they take on a jump. Its as if whateveer the angle of tilt(which is very little) you left the ramp at, is what remains throughout the jump till you land back on the ground and then its corrected.

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

i'm not saying that the old wipeout was wrong or bad but dosent it make sense that the ag field woud change intensity in each area (such as in the back, front, right, left) to keep the craft from hitting the bottem of the track on a banked turn.

[Seek100]

WTF? I don't really think lame Star Trek type excuses about the fictional technology working a certain way for issues with the gameplay are the right idea. This sort of thing shouldn't be explained away, that's why ST fans are so miserable with the state the show got into in the years before it was cancelled (I count myself amongst the miserable about it). wipEout fans really shouldn't have to sink that low, I mean we don't wear costumes of our favourite pilots yet (at least I don't, there might some weird obsessive wipEout freak out there who models himelf on Kel Solar).

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

i'm just point out that your saying that this fictional tech should work this way when it isn't a fact my way or yours. the real question is does that change how it feels to play wipeout or does it just change the way something looks on screen.

your critisizing pure because it's not just like another previous game in a series.

is RE4 not RE because it dosen't have camera problems?

we all have our openion, that what makes debates like this so interesting, but does that give anyone the right to say if pure is or isn't wipeout.

[eLhabib]

aside from differences in the different games' physics models, I can see the point Seek is making. purE definitely DOES NOT handle like the first 3 wipEout titles. but if you really look closely, the first 3 wipEouts had rather big differences in handling, too.

The main question here should be if purE feels like a wipEout game. And since - in my humble opinion - the 'feel' of a game is not only defined by its physics model, but also by its looks, style, art direction, immersion, and overall execution, my answer is clearly YES, purE is definitely a wipEout, and a good one, too!

[djlucite]

Plus, since they moved to an entire physics engine for pure, I'm guessing it's pretty hard to replicate the exact 2097-style handling since the physics engine is different. They got it really close (helluvalot better than fusion) but I agree, it does seem more car, less floaty AG-racer.

Another contributing factor would be that the camera is a LOT tighter in Wipeout Pure (locked to the nose of the ship apparently) than in any other wipeout, so that heightens the "car-driving" feeling.

Though I like the whole deal with the bomb explosions knocking you physically around.

As for the original question? Yeah, definitely Pure's a WipEout game.
You wanna race cars without wheels? Go play F-Zero, haha.

[Distrupto]

There IS one point where it seems like Pure is like 2097. On Modesto, on the down run followed by the right corner a little distance after the start line, u can actually fly over the right corner if u time it right, but however, the ship still doesnt bank. The yawing must be because the turning of the ship controlled by thrust-vectoring in Pure instead of flaps.

[username]

i prefered the old fashiond way that the ships used to turn the corners, the best was in wipeout 2097

[Drakkenmensch]

You wanna race cars without wheels? Go play F-Zero, haha.

I always wondered myself why there was such a stat as "Grip" in a game where the craft makes no contact with the ground ;)

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

Grip?!!! Wa? i played F-zero MV for the GBA when it first came out and didn't see a grip. but i think that we can all agree that fzero is just cars without weels.

[Drakkenmensch]

When you check the stats for the ships in FZero Grand Prix Legends, there's a grip stat that DOES affect how tightly your ship handles corner. While a D grip is sloppy and will ram you in the turns (much like a Triakis in the hands of a novice pilot), an A grade grip turns like an absolute dream.

[diagram]

I personally think that SL made wipeout original again.. Personally think they did a fantastic job at making it a Wipeout to remember.

272 gold medals don't lie. :)

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

Yes it think we can all agree that pure is really fun.

[username]

uh hu, it certianly is, i like the way thet the ships can roll over onto the otherside and scrape along the floor, really realistic feeling

[Brianetta]

I always fly with the camera locked right to the ship. Cockpit view, one might call it. It's definitely very apparent that the craft do indeed roll at corners. Definitely doesn't feel like a car.

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

That view is just to allover the place to use without constant practice. I use the close but not in view for all tracks except Citta Nova which i use the far away view. but if you race with the cockpit view you can tell that durring turns you can see that your view tilts with the pitch of the ship. It is really weird when you do a barrel roll and the world flips.

[Dominator]

"Agreed" in cockpit view you can actually see, though barely, that your AG tilts through corners, not to the extremes experienced in the older versions of WO though :frown:
Barrel roll in cockpit view, phantom, wow :dizzy :dizzy

[Lion]

as any game series progresses, the physics changes make it feel very different... look at quake1>quake2>quake3>quake4 they all feel very different to each other, while at the same time maintaining a version (heavily changed though it may be) of a "handling" feature (speed jumping)
the same makes sense to happen in a racing game. the colin mcrae games play now nothing like the old ones. why should wipeout?

fusion took it too far, and it played like an f-zero as a result.
pure brought back a degree of what attracted many of us to this series but unsurprisingly, it's different!

without change there is stagnation.
stagnation in software = death

my rankings would have previously been 2097 > 3se > wipeout > fusion
initially I put pure between 2 and 3. but as the additional tracks have come out, and as I have attained more proficiency in handling the way the bounces and tilts behave, and opening up faster classes - pure has now risen to what I feel is the number one wipeout game for play in my opinion.
Stylistically I still prefer elements of 2097, and elements of 3 (but to a lesser extent)

I wouldn't have put pure as my number one were it not for the delta and omega packs though... there are sections to the tracks in there that really nail for me what the whole wipeout experience should be

[username]

i think that pure is a wipeout and well worthy of it but it is just a diferent version, and the change is for the best. i think it feels different to 2097 as some of the small touches are very different,for eg: no dr angryman and curly says go!, and no red bull signs :( (i love red bull, i have about 2 cans a day) lol

[Omni Requiem]

I suppose that the game goes forward in two terms.
First, games evolve anyway, playing Sonic Rush (for example) is not like playing Sonic 1. Sonic 2 mediates between the two but is not like either of them. As long as more games are pumped into a series aspects of the series will change to a) Suit the market and b) Suit the available technology and c) to improve upon the last game.
In other words, if you want a truly WipEout game you would need the exact models, exact software, exact hardware, exact physics and so on as the original WipEout.
But this means we just have the original WipEout again which we could all just play now anyway so although there are crys from fans of old to go back to the original formula, the resulting game could be quite stale (See Gunstar Future Heroes to see what I mean).

The second half of the debate is that Pure is set about 100 years after 2097, in the games universe I'm sure the craft would also change and evolve both in the way they look and handle by then.

(And sorry for harping on about other games in the Pure thread Lance, I just needed a few examples).

Edit: Oh my, the whole thing seems to have been resolved now, don't I feel silly :/.

[Lance]

.
''the whole thing seems to have been resolved now''
?
.

[Sausehuhn]

I think we don't want a new 2097, we just want a game that features a handling that has important parts of the old one(s).
I don't want a 2097 or 3 handling, I want something new that actually feels like WipEout. I would like to see the ships to tilt out and I wanna see the return of boucing.
But it souldn't feel like the old games, it should feel like a new one, just with some charactaristics that stand for WipEout.

[username]

Sausehuhn, i agree. however i am not sure if i said this before but i would love to see the return of the designers republic. they make wipeout, well... wipeout.

[Lance]

.
IMO, DR does not make Wipeout 'Wipeout'.
Wipeout's identity comes from it's concept, ship design, physics, and track design. none of those were done by DR
.

[Jittery-Joe]

Lance speaks the truth there, methinks. But the logo's done by tDR were classy...

Oh and what the hell does IMO mean?

[username]

i think that tDR added a great touch to 2097 and 1 and 3 (it was mad by them!) but i agree that it might not go too well with the future series.

[Sausehuhn]

@ Joe

IMO/IMHO means:
in my (humble) opinion

[username]

i never knew what imo ment either till this moment! lol.
(back to topic): i think that 2097 and pure both have there ups and downs. so i guess that they both cancel each other out. 2097 is more WIPEOUT but pure is a better game.
its a hard decision! lol

[Dominator]

Pure is WO, plain & simple, we should all be gratefull that the WO franchise is still alive & well after the disappointment of Fusion.
SL took Pure back to it's WO roots, so thanks SL, great stuff, look forward to the next one :)

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

IMO along with Lance a game francise is not made by a bounce or a physics engine but a general atmospeher created by the look and feel of the graphics and gerneral gameplay that is present form sequal to sequal.

a good example of this is the GT games. While each has improve to more realistic phsycs, handeling of each car and graphic quality of models, the core game element of dlivering the most realistic driving game ever has never wavered.

[Lion]

...the core game element of dlivering the most realistic driving game ever has never wavered.
no damage modelling, impossible to roll the cars
replace "realistic" with "expansive" and I'll agree with you

[Lance]

.
Rouni, that is not what i said.
.

[username]

i think that the whole feel of wipeout as a massive sport would all plese us. the roar of the croud with the doppler effect as you whiz past, and the massive banners supporting your team. thats what it is all about!

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

Lance, i was using GT's realastic element that never changes in comparison to how the style of wipeout has stayed true to the fanchise.

i know that GT doesn't have damage but that is not for lack of want of realism from the developer but the car company's won't let you present a broken form of the car that they are selling. The really use GT to advertise.

but! GT is expensive.