WipEout 2097 and a century of difference.

[Distrupto]

I just downloaded the PC demo of WipEout 2097. So far, Ive played it once. It was VERY different from Pure. For one thing, its graphics were rather chocky and blocky. I started on a FEISAR, which has some resemblence to the Pure FEISAR, but different stats. The controlling from the keyboard wasnt like the easily-held PSP with turn, airbraking, firing, and accerate controls far apart. I crashed into every wall and kept ricocheting off without losing any speed! Then after a while, I could only see half my ship and all of a sudden came to a total halt. I thought something was wrong. Then I realized that I was eliminated! :lol: :o

Strangely, in the 100 years between 2097/XL and Pure, AG never seemed to evolve, but in 100 years, look how much cars have evolved. The only advances ive seen so far r teleport rescues, weapons being absorbed into shield, advances in shield strength and weapon power and gradually more powerful engines. No real "revolutions".

[Lance]

.
it's happening; technology is finally hitting the wall of the limits of possibility. ;)
.

[lunar]

Also we should assume that AG Racing is governed by technical rules and specifications, much like F1 racing is today. Triakis could likely produce a weapon capable of not only destroying all opposition instantly, but reducing the whole of Makana to dust and orchids floating on the water. Obviously there would have to be rules outlawing such unsportsmanlike behaviour.Limits on weapon capabilities and ship-performance would be there to enhance the racing, and team engineers would have to work within those limits, hence there would not necessarily have been huge changes in a hundred years.

As for your own 2097 experience: I advise you to get a proper Playstation and a negcon to enjoy the game properly. Played like that it`s just AG magic. :)

[Distrupto]

Sorry, but if im gonna get a PS, its gonna be a PS-3. Hopefully, the PS-3 WO might not be like Fusion and maybe even better than Pure. 8)

[lunar]

And you will be able to play Wipeout 2097 on a PS3 anyway, probably, so it`s good. :)

[Lance]

.
uh... apparently not. Sony is said to be making no effort to achieve backwards compatibility. the new hardware is just too different. and i suppose that putting in a separate PS2 for it would crank up the likely high price even higher
.

[lunar]

That`s a shame. No room for 3 consoles under my telly...... so the PS1 survives and out goes the PS2. Though this might have to be negotiated with the kids. I suppose we`re at least a couple of years away from any PS3 wipeout arriving yet though.

[Sausehuhn]

The only advances ive seen so far r teleport rescues, weapons being absorbed into shield, advances in shield strength and weapon power and gradually more powerful engines. No real "revolutions".
maybe on PS3?

*images flying over water, more physics and more differnet courses...*

[Distrupto]

Also we should assume that AG Racing is governed by technical rules and specifications, much like F1 racing is today. Triakis could likely produce a weapon capable of not only destroying all opposition instantly, but reducing the whole of Makana to dust and orchids floating on the water. Obviously there would have to be rules outlawing such unsportsmanlike behaviour.Limits on weapon capabilities and ship-performance would be there to enhance the racing, and team engineers would have to work within those limits, hence there would not necessarily have been huge changes in a hundred years.


Sure, AG may be confined in rules, like F1 is, but remember how F1 cars looked in the 1950s and how they look now. AGs havent evolved like that, so it seems really strange.

[eLhabib]

you tell me you don't see any evolution from wipEout 1 to purE???

there is a high diversity in shapes in purE, as opposed to the original w'o'', where all the ships where based in shape on the nx1000.
F1 cars haven't changed in shape as much as AG crafts have!
Concerning an evolution in 'performance': well, of course you COULD make the game even faster, but that would become ridiculous at some point. and there certainly is some evolution in purE's ship performance, like barrel rolls and sideshift.

[Drakkenmensch]

Don't forget an evolution in weapons! Wipeout has LOST more weapons along the way (reflector, superweapons, shield wall, etc) than there were original weapons in th efirst one.

[Distrupto]

Weapons r part of the series. Im talkin about AG Craft. I havent seen WO-1 but the shape hasnt changed much from WO2097 to WOFusion and WOPure. The only performance evolutions ive seen r weapons absorbed into shield thus making pitlanes obsolete, increase in shield power, and slighlty more powerful engines. Handling systems have slightly improved by more responsive airbrakes, sideshifting and barrel-roll, but nothing like ground-effect or rear-wings.

[eLhabib]

ground effect? :lol:
those are AG crafts, remember?

[Lance]

.
el, ''but nothing like ground-effect or rear-wings.'' was a reference to the world of cars and how there is nothing that groundbreaking in the tech development of Wipeout despite its having been ''in existence'' for so long. it was like saying 'but no equivalent of autoracing's ground-effect or rear wings'.
.

[eLhabib]

alright, but then, how would we know if there has been a lot of evolution? does anyone KNOW what would make an AG craft go faster? we don't SEE better engines, lighter materials, or more precise airbrakes.

[Lance]

.
but those are just refinements, not evolutionary innovations. that's why they aren't visible, because they're so minor. yes?
.

[eLhabib]

okay, so what evolutionary innovations can you tell me in formula 1 cars?

[Lance]

.
wings, which were temporarily banned, then made legal and limited.

passive ground effects, which have been off-and-on legal with different formulas.

vacuum fan active ground effects, which were banned almost immediately in F1, but live on in one of the cars of R4. ;)

crosslink suspensions with in-body shock dampers.

bodywork that semi-encloses the wheels but does not quite break the open-wheel rule.

one materials difference, composites bodywork, has made a visible difference from the racers that were made before the late 50s/early 60s.


all of those are very visible from the spectators' view. maybe there are still more, but i haven't remembered them yet.

in Wipeout, the main visible difference after the original formula is the allowance of two-hulled ships, and likewise more than one thruster whether there are two hulls or only one. but there doesn't seem to be any further visible difference in aerodynamic controls or drag reduction devices. can you think of some others?



edit: i forgot: in auto-racing, the development of tires whose tubesection profiles are wider than they are tall has made a highly visible difference and also a big performance difference.
.

[eLhabib]

all you said is true, but can you think of anything like that which converts to the world of wipEout? I can't. Can you tell wether the w'o''1, 2097, w3o, fusion, or purE Feisar craft is the most aerodynamic or efficient? I think there is no point in looking for a technical evolution on wipEout crafts. They are entirely fictional.

[Drakkenmensch]

also, remember a few years back when a few teams came up with differential braking to allow faster speed in turns? It was banned almost immediately because Ferrari couldn't get a victory for the life of them anymore :twisted:

[Lance]

.
yeah, Drak, but that wouldn't make a visible change in the cars. we were kinda looking for visible evidence of evolutionary change in WO technology or formulas.
[man, Ferrari has always been really protective of itself, eh? and when Ferrari speaks, even Bernie sometimes listens.]

from the console point of view, the greater power would allow more efficiently shaped lower aerodrag ships, but we didn't really see that in Fusion on the more powerful console. we're not getting any verisimilitude to the projected reality, since the game isn't really a simulation. it's more about aesthetics and fun than about tech.
.

[Drakkenmensch]

True that, but aerodynamic visible change is most noticible when engine power increases become slim to none. This is clearly obvious in the first half of the century where quantum leaps in engine power increase were so great that aerodynamics were not a concern at all, as it was easier to just boost raw power generation.

[Lance]

.
back in the 30s, there was a bit of a nod in the direction of streamlining on Grand Prix/Grosser Preis cars, but there must have been some total ban on wheel covering. the powerful Mercedes and Auto-Union autobahn speed record cars that were built on the Grand Prix chassis paid a lot of attention to aerodynamics, but only a part of that carried over to formula racing
.

[Distrupto]

Even if twin-hull ships r not aerodynamic, in Pure, the fastest is Piranha and is pretty aerodynamic. Still, nothing revolutionary has happened in AG as happened like F1.

This year, finally Ferrari's dominance has ended though, but to Renault, not McLaren. :(

[Mano]

.
can you think of some others?.

- Cockpit positioning (Assegai-Goteki)

- Wider and taller profiles (original ones were VERY slim in width/lenght and height prportions (i particularly love the original slim, flush, plain profile, and want to draw a ship (my version of course ;)) that does justice to the original, when i get time ;))

- Thruster engine (the original has flames on the exhausts the sequels have energy/light trails) *not related to aerodynamics but visible

- XL/2097 Auricom has a rear spoiler

The original ship is a true speed image, looks like a well thought speed machine, relying as much on aerodynamics as it does in engine technology; contrary to the sequels that sacrifice aerodynamiocs and compensate with engine tech (tho some really do look good :D and i like them)

A couple of self made examples of sacrificing a bit of aerodynamics for engine power and looks :D :


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/manoloco/Wipeout/WipeOutA2copia.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/manoloco/Wipeout/WipeOutA2copia.jpg


The exception is piranha in XL which could compete with the original due to the pointy front in comparison with the original that has a slanted nose

[Drakkenmensch]

Both links go to the same image - but it's very nice, I have to say :)

[Distrupto]

.
can you think of some others?.

- Cockpit positioning (Assegai-Goteki)

- Wider and taller profiles (original ones were VERY slim in width/lenght and height prportions (i particularly love the original slim, flush, plain profile, and want to draw a ship (my version of course ;)) that does justice to the original, when i get time ;))

- Thruster engine (the original has flames on the exhausts the sequels have energy/light trails) *not related to aerodynamics but visible

- XL/2097 Auricom has a rear spoiler


Cockpit positioning is just a slight refinement. How is it revolutionary?

Even F1 cars profiles have kept changing.

From flames to long thrust trails is just ongoing refinement of the engines, not really anything new.

Why would an AG craft have a SPOILER??? Ok, the Auricom in 2097 does, but there is no need for an AG ship to try and produce downforce. That counteracts its AG generators.

[Mano]

Distrupto:

I was just pointing differences, not saying those differences are beneficial from the aerodynamic point of view; i even pointed out that the original ship has a slimmer more speed like profile that has more aerodynamic advantages.

I only pointed differences in the context that Lance asked his question about visual differences, hence why i quoted him.

man you are too dis(t)rupto to read-o in a dissipated manner ;) :D


Drakk:

oops sorry about that, here are the correct links:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/manoloco/Wipeout/WipeOutA2copia.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/manoloco/Wipeout/PIRPAPERfinal.jpg

[element42]

Why would an AG craft have a SPOILER??? Ok, the Auricom in 2097 does, but there is no need for an AG ship to try and produce downforce. That counteracts its AG generators. A possible reason: the disruption to the airflow caused by a spoiler means that the aerodynamics of any following craft function less efficiently, thereby making it harder for overtaking. So no positive benefit for the craft with a spoiler, but a negative effect on its competitors.

[eLhabib]

well, actually the spoiler would produce an air distortion which causes a drag behind the vehicle, so actually it would make overtaking said vehicle EASIER instead of harder (as far as I know).

[Distrupto]

It would form a slipstream making it easier for a chasing ship to overtake.

[eLhabib]

that's what I meant, sorry if that wasn't clear due to my lack of better english.

[Lance]

.
the purpose of the 'spoilers' is to stabilise the air vortices created when shortening the body/fuselage to less than the aerodynamically best length and shape by using a Kamm-type tail profile. this profile reduces the overall drag due to skin friction by reducing the overall skin area in contact with the high-speed air, but creates vortices. if those are kept stable, overall drag is still reduced, and car/ship stability is kept high.

it is more common to use this in ground-touching vehicles because there are additional benefits such as reducing overall size and weight of structure, reduction of polar moment of inertia [like excessive momentum in the tail of a car when attempting to come out of a 'corner'], and to make the car take up less space [an advantage for non-racing cars in traffic and garages].
.

[eLhabib]

*sound of brain exploding*

AHA!

Thanks for the insight Lance!
So, since you seem to have more knowledge about aerodynamics than I do - would this also work on an AG-craft (or on any craft that is not touching the ground for that matter)?

[Distrupto]

Yeah, the spoiler would increase stability of the ship but the faster it goes, the more downforce it produces and the more power needed by the AG generators to keep the ship floating at one altitude, thus reducing the ship's speed by some of the engines power being used to regulate the ships altitude.

[Lance]

.
yes, it can work the same way on a fully airborne craft. the spoiler action does not in itself produce downforce; that only happens if it is enlarged beyond the necessary and given a different angle and shape to transform it into a sort of inverted wing or at the very least a form-drag-inducing surface that creates higher pressure on its front and top surfaces, unlike a normal wing that produces lower pressure on its top surface
.

[element42]

the spoiler would ... actually it would make overtaking said vehicle EASIER instead of harder (as far as I know). Hmmm, I was thinking about F1 at the moment, but now I think about it, the airflow problems for following cars are caused by all the twiddly bits on the body rather than the rear wing, really. So I'm probably wrong. Still, you could design an airflow-messer rear wing, I'm sure. Don't know what it would look like though :blarg

[Distrupto]

Today I won my first Gold in 2097! I used the Auricom instead of FEISAR and Qirex today. That spoiler really pays off! I also eliminated AG-Sys with my first 2097 Plasma Bolt, and its remarkable how quickly this Plasma charges! 2097 rocks! :D :) :mrgreen:

I got a couple more on Auricom and 2 on the strangely pre-unlocked Qirex. Also, I eliminated FEISAR and had a strange AI encounter wen an AI Auricom kept trying to push me into the pitlane. in the end he did, but only after my shield had gotten low.