Concept

[bakkufu]

I've always wanted Wipeout to envision what AG racing should truly be, speed across terrain. Imagine a tropical bay circuit, AG racers sweeping around an island filled with lush palm trees and resorts, before heading out across the lush blue ocean, AG engines throwing up white scars across the water as the craft top out at several hundred kilometres an hour, picking up the coastline again to head for the finish line.

Thats what AG racing should be in my opinion. A lot of the technical courses are fun to throw craft around, but the future of the sport should be less confined to the armored track walls and energy shields around each circuit, but move into a more dramatic, luxurious arena, one where AG racing can be appreciated for its strengths.

[Dogg Thang]

Racing by it's nature requires a predetermined course, does it not?

[bakkufu]

yes but at the moment we are always throwing our AG's across "formula one" style circuits. Wipeout Fusion took a small step in the right step, making some of the courses less of a grey gutter and more varied. Admittedly, a lot of the fastest sections are along the same "gutter" design, but I'm hoping for more open racing, possibly in a similar style to Star Wars pod racer.

As I said though, there would still be a "track" to race around, but lets have less futuristic cities with energy shields protecting crowds, and more places where AG's can totally let loose, like deserts, salt flats and calm waters.

[eLhabib]

well, actually the open parts in Fusion were the worst parts of track IMO. I don't want w'o'' to evolve into a crosscountry ralley game. Pod racer? I don't know - didn't enjoy that one all that much. WAY too easy. Only track I liked was the one that actually HAD a pretty narrow track to race on. The twists, turns hairpins and jumps are what makes w'o'' what it is.

[bakkufu]

If you look at the track designs as is though, you'll quickly see that what the tracks do is try and offer a challenge to AG racing in the most awakard places possible, volcanoes, american jungles, suspended in the sky and on mountainsides. With the exception of a few tracks design, most of these places don't really make me feel that I'm topping out at several hundred kilometres an hour.

Might just be me who thinks this, but when I think of Wipeout I think of these first few craft heading across salt flats proving AG was possible. This is where the sport began and I think this might also be where it should head.

[Sausehuhn]

I like the wide open parts in Fison a lot.
Maybe it would be a good choice to make these sections not as wide as they were in Fusion, but still keep the bumpy ground (?)

[eLhabib]

but where would be the difficulty of speeding along a wide spread desert from point A to B? Of course, w'o'' is about speed, but the whole challenge is trying to maintain the highest possible speed even through sharp turns. If you choose open terrain settings for w'o'', you would see evryone going STRAIGHT through them, seeing as an AG-craft can float over rocks, rivers, and any surface in the world anyway... maybe I just don't get the point of your vision?

[bakkufu]

Thats why in my original post I said that as an example, the course could sweep round an island, giving you those imposing turns and complex manouvers. But, referring to the desert course idea, the orignal Wipeout proved desert courses could still provide a challenge, but its always been a dream of mine to remove some of the "shaky road for no reason" sections ( think back to how many straights have inclines or stupid snake patterns in them ) and just give us some open terrain to blast around.

Its true that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, but perhaps with some more choices and possibility, pilots can adopt different tactics, especially where weapons and powerups are concerned.

As I said, Fusion took the first step, unfortunately they made it so that the handling is affected by the surface the craft is travelling over, which for an AG, I find a little annoying.

[Hellfire_WZ]

It does work if it is properly executed. The fact that the handling was affected by leaving the track in Fusion just added to the feeling that the AG physics had gone. If the physics had stayed the same, I think it could have been a lot better.

[bakkufu]

definately agree with you there!!! If properly done I think it would be a proper adrenaline rush :D

[Drakkenmensch]

The basic problem here is - how do you reward someone for keeping skilled steering on an open course when the very physics model suggests that the terrain shouldn't affect your speed? Tight courses with wall scraping accomplishes this superbly, as does falling off the track in sections with no railguards (gotta love Sol2 :twisted: )

This could be accomplished by placing speed pads along specific racing lines in th eopen sections, rewarding those pilots with the steering precision to hit every single one. Other options could be devised, like placing force fields on the other edges of allowed racing area, but that sounds like walls again, doesn't it?

I'm open for new ideas, as long as the execution retains the heart and feel of Wipeout in the end result.

[Dogg Thang]

But without a predetermined track, it's just flying around. It's not racing. I'm not sure that Wipeout is the game you're looking for. WO is a racing game. The track dictates the racing challenge. Without that things get messy.

[bakkufu]

I was thinking along the lines of markers that could hover around the outer boundary, either when a ship crosses this boundary a shield could "deflect" them back onto course, or a handy recovery ship could place them back into the race.

I agree though with having speed and weapon pads throughout these new open sections, would make for some tactical racing!!

[eLhabib]

I agree that it would be fun to have a game mode in the next w'o'' where you can just let your craft roar through the environment, like for example through a jungle, dodging trees and carving a big scar through the flora with your exhaust flame. But that shouldn't be the main racing core of the game.

[bakkufu]

As I said though, Im thinking deserts and salt flats, calm shallow waters and open plains. There could be jungle sections too, in fact I drew some track layouts years ago, one of which that had start / finish under the jungle canopy, with some intricate sections amongst waterfalls and rocky outcrops, with a fast section heading out of the jungle across plains and rivers, and then back into the jungle via an underground shaft that had hidden spectator areas.

[xEik]

Although it might be technically too demanding, I'd find the idea of AG races taking place in more varied environments interesting. As long as the physics aren't affected by surface I'd be fine with it.

In any case I think they should still be circuits, although the metallic track isn't there. The environment should become the walls of the circuit.

Possible ideas would be:
Fly around a tropical island (in this case something like a palm tree forest acts as the inner walls of the circuit)
A sewer.
Metro tunnels (brings memories of Gare d'Europa but without the metallic surface).
A coal mine.
Inside a twisty canyon.
In the trenches of a futuristic battlefield (once the futuristic war is over ;) ).
In the Great Wall (at least half of the circuit).
Along a pair of Fjords.
In the streets of Monaco circuit. A tarmac track in WO. :D
However, I believe using the classic matellic tracks is more about reducing the number of polys that get considered for collisions than anything else. Appart from, maybe, providing a better feedback on where the track exactly is.

[bakkufu]

As consoles and computers become more advanced, we should be able to have these kinds of environments in future Wipeout games. I'll see if I can photochop an image together giving you the mental image that pops into my head whenever I read this thread now!

Although I am sat at work so it will probably be tonight sometime :)

[Dogg Thang]

There's absolutely no technical reason why these couldn't be achieved on the PS2, PSP and probably even the PS1. So it's not about waiting for more advanced consoles. I think it's more a case of what works and what doesn't.

As mentioned, Fusion tried this to an extent and got slammed for it (among many other things). Largely I think this was because it seemed to be taking influence from the likes of Pod Racers, as also mentioned in this thread, rather than WO.

If you leave wide open sections, canyons etc, like in Star Wars Ep1, you'll likely lose the precision that the track gives. If you use things like walls of trees to create articificial boundaries it will feel exactly that - artificial. Nature rarely provides such convenient circuits and so putting rocks, trees, whatever in the way will feel much more deliberately confining than a track and keep you all too aware of the game mechanics.

The tracks in WO are akin to the pixel perfect precision in Super Mario Brothers. Yeah, Mario Sunshine is fantastic fun but the looseness of control and lack of clear boundaries and limits make for a far less satisfying challenge. At times just downright frustrating.

[Sausehuhn]

I would prefer a mix between the "classic" track style and free sections. But more classic track than new. I think Fusion had a great mix, even when a few more open sections would have been better...

[bakkufu]

I can see your point in terms of the precision element, but if the handling had been kept both / on the non track sections, people would probably have less foreboding when thinking of non track sections.

[Animagic]

I dont understand the adversity to change here...
The wipeout formula needs to change.
I dont want to keep playing the same game every two or three years with better graphics and new tracks.
I continually read great ideas from forum members on ways that the game can evolve
without changing the essence of what wipeout is; without losing the identity if you will...

Only to be outright shot down by disagreeing forum members for being too radical.
IE- deviating from the formula...

I have a theory about the formula:
I think Wipeout Pure not only is an effort to make up for fusion, but it might possibly be the last wipeout game as we've come to know it... or the last using all the rules of the formula...

the changes will come, but hopefully they will not mess with the handling of the ships, or magnetically keep them glued to the track like in fusion (bad ideas IMO)

I really like the idea of taking AG-Racing totally natural, like in a bush league or something similar as per xEik's great suggestions!!!

you can still have circuit races you know....
It's time to see variety, some imagination, and ingenuity with the wipeout license.

[Dogg Thang]

Your last sentence sounds like it could have been the first sentence in the first Fusion development meeting. If you want to understand why some WO fans fear change, just look to Fusion.

[bakkufu]

Mistakes are best learnt from, fusion was merely a step, what we need to do is keep making them until AG racing becomes what it should be. If the AG league never changed, never evolved, we'd have few of the innovations and new features that have endeared us even more to our beloved sport.

[Rouni Kenshin#1]

so i think they could do a combination of a both inclosed track that they have now and bring some wide open areas into it.

at some places they could lose the bottem of the track and just have it glide over the warter or some such surface but other parts it is like it is in pure.

i would also like them to make it where you are transported back onto the track only if you land off it.

this go two inches off the track is anoying let us use the jumps to our advantage and create our own shortcuts.

[Lance]

.
i'd like to have a mode for freeform zooming around the countryside for simple fun, but also retain the classic racing track style as the core of the game, because what always brings me back to Wipeout is the sheer skill required to master a track and put up a record time. you have something to measure your performance against, so that you knOw when you do a great performance and can feel great about it. for me, that beats the simple rush you get from just haring about like a snowmobiler crashing through the snow
on my hundred horse snowmobile
o'er the fields we go
letting out a squeeeaal

studs on belts go round
skis swish on the ice
can't even see the summer's ground
the thick snow is so nice

ooooooooh
jingle bells, jingle bells
roar, roar, roar, roar, rooooar
etc.
:D
.

[bakkufu]

if only i could draw or 3d render what's going through my head when I think of my idea, perhaps I could demonstrate with the noble art of stick men?

Seriously though, i'll try nd get a good piccy or something together!

[Lance]

.
holy effing s, 38 posts already in one day? i should call you 'gatling'
.

[bakkufu]

logged in at work hehe ;)

[Lance]

.
that is not a good excuse for unfocussed repetitiveness.
this is a message board, not an AIM client. the idea is messages, not sheer verbiage. i don't wish to seem harsh, but one can't let this sort of pattern get established or we would be awash with too many posts without enough time to read them. most of us are not logged in at work, nor should we be. even if i were at home 24 hours a day the way i used to be, i wouldn't have the time and 'energy' to read everything; but we moderators need to read everything, just as a movie reviewer has to see every movie that his readers might want to see, no matter what the volume and quality of those movies might be. it gives moderators a different, more critical perspective, yes. perhaps it makes us oversensitive to high frequency posting.

i say this as someone whose current average post count per day is between 3.3 and 3.4 last time i looked, and i have more than 4000 posts, more than anyone else in the forums. if i were to have averaged 30 posts per day. yikes! scary to think what the forums would look like and how low their idea density would be if we all posted at such a rate. [feels sudden overwhelming need to read Churchill's 'History of the English Speaking Peoples'. 8O

however, i should probably just consider that so many posts as you've done in one day [a new record, by the way] are merely the temporary result of first day enthusiasm at discovering a new place where people love the same stuff you do. :)

and we do love it, by [inserts antiquated expression of enthusiasm here:] golly.
.

[bakkufu]

Well I must admit, I do enjoy talking about wipeout and I'll probably settle into a pattern of less posts per day after a few days, but as for unfocused repetitivness? I merely wished to convey an idea across, which is difficult in text only so I opened a discussion.

if I'd logged in, said hi all and then spammed every thread in some attempt to post boost then I'd say unfocussed repetitiveness would be a warrented comment.

And I was fortunate enough to have the day to myself at work, so I thought there would be no better introduction that to get involved in, and create discussion. I don't want to be the kind of guy that walks in, everyone looks around, then walks out again without saying hi.

[Lion]

along the lines of the first suggestion I thought it would be pretty cool to have a big swells track...
my first thought was to have it a long way out to sea with rolling waves causing the vertical layout of the track to constantly shift. it would make for a different course every lap,
The biggest problem with this is controlling the course layout adequately. I do however like the idea of learning the horizontal layout of the track but having to adjust each time you approach the bend "I know I have to turn left, but do I nose up or down this time?" it would constantly keep you on your toes.
then I had the thought that it would be cool to have this idea set beside some big cliffs with the swell smashing itself on the rocks... some other rocks could be a little ways out from the cliffs to act as walls for sections of the track.
would be very dramatic

for these ideas as a weapons pickup you could use something like a floating waterskiing jump with the weapons pad on it. you'd lose a little speed in going over it and wind up airborne but you'd get a weapon out of it.
tracks could be bordered by boats, even cruise ships, and floating billboards

[bakkufu]

I thought about that this morning and an idea hit me that would be awesome to race on, how about having a circuit at niagra falls? Perfect setting if you ask me, there is enough city space to the west of the falls to have some complex turns amongs the buildings, before pilots turn out into the river and speed along amongst the various rocks and waves. As you near the falls themselves, pilots bear left and up a ramp that leads parallel to the river.

Over the falls themselvesm you could have a observation platform, swept in a crescent the opposite way to the falls, the side facing the falls could be glass with an energy shield over it that the racers could speed along, giving pilots an impressive and off putting sheer drop to their right, while race fans can see the ships streaking past along the glass wall of the observation deck.

[eLhabib]

ever raced alca vexus? (fusion track)

[bakkufu]

yeah but that was a pansy little waterfall, and rather than some nice flat clear blue water, they went for a bloomin canoeing course kind of design!

[fusionfrenzy]

I think there should be 20 classical wipeout, tight twisty courses in ps3 wipeout (because pure downloads prove there can be that many from the off), and 10 or 15 wide, luxurious looking courses, like florion heights 3. That way you can have the best of both worlds, right? Perhaps a different game mode for each- FX650 mode and a Rush mode, or something.

[Killrush]

A lot of people didn't like Fusion because of the open parts of the tracks

[Jittery-Joe]

I like the prinicple of the open parts idea, but Fusion's were, well, crap. The only useful innovation from them was that fact your craft kicked up dust, obscuring the other's vison.

[bakkufu]

fusions were crap, but lets not let fusion spoil a good idea :D

[infoxicated]

One of the things I thought would be cool about open areas was dust plumes or water spray swirling up as the craft pass overhead. Sadly it wasn't really explored, and I'd hoped that in Pure when you were racing on, say, Sebenco Climb or something there'd be snow on the track that would flurry as you went over it, or even have racing lines appear from the heat of the ships passing over it.

I didn't really object to the freeform areas in Fusion - it was just their execution that was terrible - obstacles in the middle of the track, and the human ship losing "grip" across water while the AI craft were unaffected, for example.

Although I'd hate it to get too much like Pod-Racing, I'd still like to see the tracks venture outwith the urban jungle. BlueRidge was a rare treat in Wipeout Pure, although there wasn't really any areas like, say, the old Hockenhiem - where you're racing through an alley of trees.

[Seek100]

How about a recreation of the Nordschleife of the Nürburgring, complete with 173 corners, all 20.8km through the middle of the forest? Or how about a recreation of the full Gesamtstrecke - the original Nürburgring that included the Südschleife and measured 28.265km? :twisted:

About the open tracks, as long as they convincing walled in the race so it was still a 'track' they would be okay; for instance racing through an artificial ravine, the canyon walls would form the edges of the track. If you have open areas like in Fusion the only way to stop people just flying in a straight line is to put big rocks and other obstacles which would suck, as small sections for maybe a few seconds they'd be okay, but not whole races on open tracks.

To take the ravine example further, the track could open out into a huge salt flats area with some sort of shield barrier to stop people 'exploring' where they shouldn't and you'd only be in the open area for maybe 5 to 10 seconds, then you entire the ravine again and return to proper racing. The 'ground' should never, ever, ever, ever, ever affect handling. Ever. These are AG craft, not cars, even in pure when you go over jumps the craft handle more like a car going off a cliff than a plane which is effectively what the AG racers are more related to.

[bakkufu]

Seek, you and me are thinking the same thing, I was thinking calm blue waters, with spray arcing up from each craft or dusty salt flats like you described. But with a formula one circuit feel to it.

For example not every formula one circuit has barriers up all round the track, so why restrict the tracks that way.

[eLhabib]

well formula 1 tracks are mostly not confined by walls, because if you go off-track to take a shortcut, you will get punished for it. In wipEout, however, there wouldn't be anything to stop you from 'exploring' other than some sort of physical barrier.

[Futureperson]

I've always wanted Wipeout to envision what AG racing should truly be, speed across terrain. Imagine a tropical bay circuit, AG racers sweeping around an island filled with lush palm trees and resorts, before heading out across the lush blue ocean, AG engines throwing up white scars across the water as the craft top out at several hundred kilometres an hour, picking up the coastline again to head for the finish line.

Thats what AG racing should be in my opinion. A lot of the technical courses are fun to throw craft around, but the future of the sport should be less confined to the armored track walls and energy shields around each circuit, but move into a more dramatic, luxurious arena, one where AG racing can be appreciated for its strengths.

I don' t like it! Flight over water plays hell with the AG damper units.

[eLhabib]

???

Please explain this a little.
Other than you actually OWNING an AG-damper unit (which is highly unlikely, since it doesn't EXIST), I don't really see how you would know how it reacts to water...

[G0rT]

I'll cover this one for you future. Obviosly the trans warp anti gravity hover drive shorts out if too much H2O gets into the fusion reactor jk :) . Oh who the hell knows how something like that would function with water intoduced into it's system, let alone exist :roll: .

[Drakkenmensch]

*knocks on eLhabib's forehead a la Biff Tannen* "Hello, McFly! HE-LLO-OOO!!!"

He's obviously gotten his AG science from Back to the future 2 where Marty is trying to hoverboard over the pool in front of the city hall and comes to a dead stop because "hover boards don't work over water." You need MORE POWER!

*shows off his Piranha brand board with fangs and fins*

[Shem]

hehe, the only thing that comes to my mind with water and AG crafts was Porto Kora, and the sewers (the final turn), from which water was pouring down, and stopped when the craft was parked beside it. Maybe AG crafts could make their way through the seashore getting rid of the water waves? It would look nice, but that's it.

Ok, so I was reading this topic, and I must point out some things. First of all, the first tests on Nevada desert (showing the first AG craft), only took place on the desert, but the crafts never actually flew over the surface of the desert but on a specially designed track (see W'O"s manual). So actually it was Fusion in which AG crafts flew off-road it want to call it that. The other thing is about the flight engine of Fusion. The fact that the ships sticked to the track was not because there was open terrain to fly trough, but the loops, and track elements which allowed you to fly upside down, horizontally, on parts of the track that were 'on the wall', not to mention the straights that twisted around making you perform a barrel roll whilst sticking to the track. All of this demanded that kind of flight engine. Pure has partly taken over some of the elements of this, thus it's not 'bouncy' as WO2097 or XL. Of course it's because some parts of the tracks in Pure are not flat. Judging by this, i can tell that flying over a rough terrain is possible with no harm to the game physics (no need to change them, make the crafts stick to the track). But on the other hand, if you want to fly over a terrain, you must build a track first. "Ok, but what about Fusion?" you ask?
Yes, crafts flew over the terrain in Fusion, but it was part of the Fusion's concept, meaning loose tracks, reversed tracks, twisted tracks and track variations. I think that all of it was somehow glued together, by the flight engine, force-walls, propellers that made you go through the tracks, and enjoy the ride on loops, twists, enjoy the scenery, but with the cost of a poor flight engine, gameplay and the awkward feel, that you are not playing Wipeout. I think that this concept was wrong, and open terrain tracks were part of it, that demanded force-walls, the thing that simply sucked ass. I'm treating Fusion in this materia, not as Wipeout but as a Showoff. Not actually as if it was part of Wipeout series. Adding to it, that originally, AG crafts need specially designed tracks to race on, i'd say that open terrain may look nicely, but it can mess up some things in the concept of the game, and demand inventing some strange ideas on how to ommit the problems of open terrain parts of circuits (okay, force-walls again, but if you want to ommit that, try something else, that's not a wall - speed pads placed on the open terrain is a good idea IMO). I'm not neglecting the idea of open terrain parts of ciruits, i just think that it can mess things up a bit, and i think that any wipeout fan wouldn't want that, because eventually it all comes down on the gameplay. And besides - WO097 didn't have open terrains, but improved flight engine, and perfectly designed tracks, and that made the trick, that's why i think that the next step in WIpeout should be taken the same way it was made before, not necessarily straight into open terrains, but inventing something that would keep the Wipeout feel, and would satisfy wipers. Unfortunately i can't come up with an idea of that kind just like that :)

[Drakkenmensch]

If you're cancelling out gravity, why would the track under you make any kind of difference? You're not actually using a propulsor of any kind to old yourself up in the air... and even if you were, VOTL crafts and airgliders can still go above water.

There's just no precedent and no rationale for "no water allowed"

[element42]

AG-crafts aren't aircraft, and need to know approximately how far above the surface to be; as the track is not at the same height above the planets surface at all times, I guess it must know how far the track is from the bottom of the craft, perhaps some materials will mess this calculation up, like the craft not noticing water and thinking it's way above level, and error-correction thinking - there's no way I got here, something's wrong - and stopping as a safety mechanism. :?:

[Seek100]

Water is still a physical material that's easy enough to detect, there's really no excuse for no water alllowed and any attempt to make techy excuses takes us into the realm of lazy science fiction writers like the people who worked on the later Star Trek stuff, just inventing a stream of scientific sounding garbage to confuse the viewer, wipEout shouldn't delve too deeply into the science because the science doesn't exist and unless the existence of graviton strings can be proven it may never exist since the only way to truly 'cancel out gravity' would be to destroy the theoretical particles/strings that cause gravity.

In the end remember it's a science fiction game, fiction and game being the key words there, so if the developers make a really fun circuit that includes a section over water, would you say it's crap purely cause of the water section? Because you think the fictional technology might no function in such circumstances?

[bakkufu]

well there are really two posibilities as far as I see it.

1. that the AG unit functions by negating the effect of gravity that the earth has on an object on the whole. Thereby meaning that the craft would have to adjust the amount of this effect against its altitude. A higher circuit means that the effect that the AG engine puts out would have to be increased, and adjusted according to every elevation and decline in the circuit.

Which would be a pain in the ass and also impractical. But it means that the craft could travel on any surface without hinderance but would also allow the craft to fly.

2. that the AG unit creates lift equal to the weight of the craft, using the surface beneath it to push off. This means that the craft would handle like we have seen in Wipeout, and unfortunately, since the craft pushes off of the surface underneath, the surface's density would greatly effect the AG engine.

Lets just say for arguments sake though that the AG's computer control in fusion, sucks at increasing push density on lucid surfaces like dust and water, and also assume things aren't so sucky in future - hence rubbish handling on terrain not track is eliminated for future simulations.

[Riotstarter]

I'm inclined to think more towards the second idea there. Although I think how the craft behaved over water would depend on exactly how the centers of lift are created.

For example if the AG Generator created 4 smallcenters of lift evenly spread out across the craft then water would have far more of an adverse effect on the amount of lift being produced than if, say, there was just one large center of lift covering a large section of the underside of the fueselage.

For example you stand in deep snow, you sink...you stand in deep snow with snow shoes on, you don't sink.

Maybe I'm thinking about this too much :roll:

[eLhabib]

I imagine the AG units from the wipEout universe to work like a hovercraft, but without the pillow of air below them. Means it does come close to bakkufu's 2nd idea. The weight of the ship would be distributed to an area below, and of the same size as the ship, hence making purposely built tracks necessary, as 'normal' ground would break. Just like you can't drive on a dusty clayroad with a 12-ton truck.
But seeing as the crafts go at very high speeds, the ground probably wouldn't be affected that much on a straight, meaning moving over water (on a fairly straight line) would be possible (except for the fact that the ships would need windscreen wipErs :D ). On a sharp turn, however, there has to be some sort of specially built track, because the full force of the craft's inertia will push against the outside of the turn, means 'normal' ground would fold like a carpet.

[Choad]

i didnt read all of this, but for the open tracks, why not just have a point to point race mode as well as a track race mode.

it works for horse racing!

(no zone mode for horses tho....)

[Drakkenmensch]

Point A to point B races might be fun if they're properly executed, although it reduces the usefulness of certain weapons like bombs, since once it's passed over and not detonated, it's useless for good. Some point-to-point races thrown in the mix of looping tracks might be interesting though!

[Choad]

what about point a to point b to point c to point d to point e?


imagine a really cool forrest/fungle level and you fly all arround avoiding the trees only knowing the rough direction of the next point. it would be mental!!

and over time you would learn the best routes.

[eLhabib]

this idea does sound like fun, I admit, but it just has nothing to do with wipEout, IMO. the essence of wipEout is to inhale the technical twists and turns of a narrow track so that you can finally master it without a scrape on the wall.

[Choad]

but the game has to progress somewhere. it cant just stay using the exact same formula, else whats the point in buying it?? plus if it is an *additional* mode then it will never take away the stuff we know is good in wipeout.

example: gran turismo. has anything changed since gt1 now gt4 is out? awnser yes, graphics. boring? very!

[Drakkenmensch]

Has anything been added to Madden 2006? Yes! It crashes your PSP every time you try to play the career mode!

[rageagainstgeorge]

Choad - I agree about Gran Turismo, the only thing that has changed is the graphics, the game itself is stale.

For me, the only thing to change in Wipeout is the race format. Instead of starting last and racing past them all, you should be able to race fairly against balanced AI craft, not like in Pure, where for the first lap they're uber and then useless for the remainder. It should have qualifying and longer races.

[Deluxe]

"Aww... There's so much I don't know about astro-physics" - Homer Simpson

[Choad]

not like in Pure, where for the first lap they're uber and then useless for the remainder. It should have qualifying and longer races.

yeah that annoys me!

they tried in fusion to make ai that actually raced, instead of following paths, but every1 complained!

[kaiotheforsaken]

yeah i dont like starting all the way in the back every race either (granted i usually win anyway lol) but in any case your position at start should very with what place you take in the race prior (more practical in a tournament than single races). but on the topic of wipEout changing or not, i dont think it needs to personally, the formula works, and for most people it wont ever grow stagnate, a new mode here a new track or team there and i'm pretty much set. and just a quick comment on GT i dont think saying its gotten old is really all that fair, its a realistic drving sim (awefully close to real anyway) so you cant change too much otherwise it stops being real, unless new events, cars, technology etc. appear in the real world they wont be in that game. so basicly if wipeout stayed the same for the next million years i'd still buy the games because the formula works and doesn't need to be changed.

[killerfrog]

I think the rules of game are quite good.
They don't need changes....or at least don't need some radical changes.

Wipeout is not a formula1 or granprix game (and this is the reason why i love it :lol: )
The rules are the same since years and all work fine so!

:wink:

[Distrupto]

It would be nice if there were "offroad", open races. Ive seen hovercrafts racing over multiple surfaces once. They flew over land for a while, then flew onto and on a river for a while before returning to land and flying around trees. But AGs r different and unlike hover craft dont push all their weight onto an aircushion. Instead they dont have any weight to some extent. Thatway, they can race over all surfaces, so open racing is possible. An open circuit, like around an island or a mountain. Their may be force field-ish barriers that allow crafts to fly out for some 5-10 seconds. If they return to the " track" within that time, theyr ok. But if they exceed the time limit, they r teleported back to the place where they left the "track". One track can be in Blue Ridge-like surroundings, without a track and walls, but with the hills, forest, water, ramp-jumps, houses and stray AG-like "personal" and transport ships. flying around randomly, which u can crash into, like traffic. :P :) :D

Also, a "drag" game mode would be nice, with a verrryy long straight track, with hazards and objects laying about, like with bombs and mines laying around, walls and stuff in places, large jumps, stray aircraft and AGs running about, and barriers so high that u need to use a large jump, barrel roll or turbo to fly over, and if u dont get past, r teleported back some distance to try again. It would be even stranger with missil/rocket-shooting turrets at points. It would be fun to race on such tracks, but without competitors, would make a wacky, wild Zone mode. :wink: :D 8)

8)

[Dominator]

If it ain't broken don't fix it!!!!
The Wipeout formula has worked for 10 years now, with the exception of Fusion - they tried to fix it :? :x
The only change I would like to see would be with the Teams - Piss off Zone, Medievil, Puma and the like, guess i don't like change to much, love the original teams from the first 3 installments of Wipeout 8)
Why change a game we have all grown to love sooooo much????

[Task]

Because without change, there is only stagnation.
Because Wipeout has _always_ been about change.

Every single version of WO (with the possible exception of SE) has shown fairly major changes. The original WO is very different from the current version of WO. Just think, you couldn't touch a wall without coming to a dead stop, and you had no sheild energy. WOXL added those innovations, and there's a chance you wouldn't even consider a game "wipeout" now if it didn't have those two features, yet the first game is no less fantastic because of it. WO3 introduced Hyperthrust and Eliminator and Challenge and more than 4 ships at a time, only one of those things has really survived into the current version. And even though there were these elements of WO3 that didn't show up in later versions of the game, it's still the version of the game that brought us all here.

Fusion certainly wasn't a great WO, but at least now we know what changes are _bad_ for WO. At the time of development, lots of those ideas really sounded good. I never would have thought that throwing out the pit lanes and adding barrel rolls would be great ideas, but apparently they fly real well. The "wipeout formula" you mention has "change" built into it: "make every version a little different from the previous" is part of the formula!

If WO ever stops evolving, that'll probably be the death knell of the series.

Change on! 8 )

[Drakkenmensch]

Change is good.

When a new game is created as a sequel to another, a series of new changes are made. They are all meant to improve the game of course, but they don't always work.

Sometimes the changes are more good than bad, and the gamers are pleased. They tell their friends about it, and much fun is had. The game is fondly remembered.

Sometimes, the changes are more bad than good. The series takes a hit, the gamers are angry about the way their favorite game was hurt, and the franchise will be lucky to survive to its next title, assuming it makes it through intact to its next title. It will NOT survive another bad title, no matter what.

And sometimes, sometimes... there is simply so much more good and done so very well that the players are blown away. Consoles are bought for that title alone. They are played over and over by fanatic players who create entire forums around them. Where would the Wipeout series be without these changes? Still with deadstop walls and no eliminations. Wipeout 2097 broke so many rules from its predecessor, and it is still believed by many the best one in the series bar none.

I believe that Pure meets that criteria. That it shall be played for a long time, analysed in its tiniest detail by devotees who will confine their findings to arcana documents shared with the entire internet. Tournaments and other fan organised events will come and go, enjoyed by all.

None of this would have happened without the courage to change, the boldness to try new ideas and see where a little out-of-the-box thinking can go.

Change is good.

Change on.

[bakkufu]

Ok, when they do change something, please please please can Drakkenmensch write the "a ball bounces a pin drops" style blurb about change!

because with a little editing that last post would be so dramatic on the inside of a Wipeout manual!

[Distrupto]

Hey, adding a drag mode (or wildly hostile Zone mode) would be a radicle change, but would not remove the games existing features, and simply add another game mode.

[eLhabib]

I have to say I quite like that idea! Kinda like the death-star approach, real hectic, with obstacles and turret fire to dodge. maybe even some obstacles you have to destroy with rockets and the like...

Actually, the first ever build of wipEout to appear on screen, in the movie 'Hackers' was in fact a sequence very similar to that idea. It was constant racing on a straight line, avoiding obstacles, to come as far as possible and claim a highscore. So that idea might not even be so foreign to wipEout.

[Drakkenmensch]

A "Survival mode", so to speak... yes, that might work very nicely if it's handled correctly :D

[Daylight]

And all the crafts with paper shields blowing up ;)

[Cip]

i love the water idea.

maybe the craft can part the water due to the speed, exposing the sea floor, creating awesome visuals and a rough ride for the racers behind. if you go too slow then you become submerged and break down

[Daylight]

maybe THAT'S how moses got through the red sea :o :lol:

[Mano]

i love the water idea.

maybe the craft can part the water due to the speed, exposing the sea floor, creating awesome visuals and a rough ride for the racers behind. if you go too slow then you become submerged and break down

Awesome idea, i imagine it more like if you go too slow then the ag field cant sustain you over the water, and you start touching it and slowing down (but not crashing in the bottom of the sea or something i imagine it more like a shallow liquid surface), forcing you to go top speed the whole track (or the part of the track that has a liquid surface- could be any liquid- maybe lava, and the edges of the ship get bright red if it touches the lava, and make a bright misty splash like when autogen soldering stuff) BUT the slowdown should be very, very minor, even if you bottom the ship on jumps, it should be eye candy and not affect the physics too much just barely to make it fun, in this game the slowings should be minor considering the high speeds even a barely noticeable slowdown is enough for someone to gain terrain.

[Sausehuhn]

Yeah, flying over water or something I had wished for Pure. In Pure they cutted the out-door section totally out, that's a shame.
The track should be a real track, but here and there some parts that have the natural enviroment as the track. They made that in Fusion, but most people didn't like it - don't know why, maybe because stones etc on the track got on their nerves.
IMO I would like to see a track that has a canyon with a river as one part.
If the water effects are really as good as you can see them in the "Fatal Inertia" movies, than it would be a real enjoyment to see AG-crafts flying over water.

[Jittery-Joe]

They made that in Fusion, but most people didn't like it - don't know why
I think the Titanium Trees* on Cubits Floats (or whatever it was called) that got me. That and the Camera Glare on Tempesh Bay.



*I personally want to copyright this phrase...

[bakkufu]

The opening and closing doors on Alca vexus got me personally...

Anyways, I'm really liking some of the ideas coming up from this thread :D

[Distrupto]

There were opening and closing doors? Wow, another hazard for my Drag mode. :twisted:

[bakkufu]

yeah on one of the courses there was an indoor section where you could open and close doors, many a time I've gone 1st to last because there is no reverse on the AG's.