NEGCON and variations

[Mano]

Hi all!!, have been absent for quite a long time and really missed my frequency on the forums, been checking and reading posts for a while and very briefly, now i have some more time available.... and i have to say something i said on a post before my period of abscence but the post moved and what i put was somehow lost: Al you sneaky bastard!!! i bet you had those XL times waiting to be posted quite a while ago hehehe, nice comeback man.


well now, regarding to the topic title, look what practically fell into my lap:


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/manoloco/Wipeout/Picture001.jpg


now im thinking how the hell did this land into Peruvian soil?, i was checking some stores looking for nothing in particular and a familiar shape turned my sight into :?: :!: :!: asked the guy in the store (luckily the owner also makes the sales), and he told me he frequently receives controllers from japan, used and new.

Havent even used it yet lol, just tried it on the store with need for speed hp3 cause they didnt have any Wipeout game (big surprise there sigh ....).

i was looking at it and saw the model number npc-104, my white negcon is npc-101, the other one with the curvy shoulder buttons is also npc-101 the store also had this one but it was *yellow*! might be the coloration plastic has with time, but it was too yellow, it looked and felt a bit more used (the black one is still tight and smooth and the plastic has the texture intact everywhere in the controller, texture which plastic looses with use).

now my question is, what the hell are npc-102 and npc-103? are those serials for the jogcon and other controllers (from namco obviously) or are there more negcons issued these numbers, and if so, do those have slight variations??

also con someone confirm if there is a yellow negcon?? i will try to make time to take my camera monday and take a picture of it (if the store still has the controller, as someone may buy it)

[Hybrid Divide]

Black neG-Con!!!

LUCKY!

I want one!

[Animagic]

btw quick question, how are the NEG-CON A-G pilots handling the controller change to playing Wipeout Pure "The Layman's Way"

Is it a difficult transition?

reading about how some of you have mastered the game with the negcon,
I cant even imagine having to be forced to play traditionally after that.....

[Mano]

hmmm i think its as difficult a transition as it is for anyone since the nub is new for everybody...

I was also thinking that now that ps3 is said to not support old controllers (no backward compatibility, controller wise), maybe its time for namco to step up again, i know the controller didnt sell very well in north america and europe, but i think japan has way more followers, i have seen racing games tables with many negcons, japanese tables that is.

i was planning on modding one of the white negcons i have so it is more user friendly, specially in wo3, my variation implies using the left and right d-pad as I or II; that would surely be great for weapons, right d-pad fire left d-pad discard B thrust A hypertrust shoulder buttons as airbrakes; it would be great if those were remappable in-game but since they are not hardware mod is the only way, dunno if it can be done and will be long time until i try that, but what you guys think of the idea? (Mano Mod)

[G'Kyl]

Animagic: The transition is an easy one. After all, most of the games are played withOUT a neg, and I found the nub rather accessible. So, no, no difficulties at all.

Ben

[stin]

i have seen racing games tables with many negcons, japanese tables that is.

Do you have a link on that? That I would love to see.....

stevie :arrow:

[Mano]

Sure Stevie, took me quite some time to find it since previous times i stumbled into those pages looking for a negcon to buy or info about them, and they are in japanese... so conducting a search for japanese record tables can be a bit awkward at least :P, Aka-sho might help better in that regard but here are my results :D :

http://pure.cc/~takep/gt2/rt/realtime/result/hirotocup/heat1/machine.html

i found more links in the way but many were dead... guess they were too old

oh and some more links of interest, specially, this one i hope someone know japanese and can help us translate the pages as these seem to be negcon tuning techniques, that might prolong their life or make them perform better! :


http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Domino/6484/negcon.htm


some reviews (apparently):

http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~dds250/pc/negcon.htm

http://gepachika.exblog.jp/m2005-06-01/


and this one is specially for Lance ;)

http://www.chaney.karoo.net/f355/gearshift.htm

[Mano]

does anyone know if i reroute a circuit from an analog button to a digital one, will the circuit still work ok?; if so it will be easy to do the mano mod; if anyone has information or knowledge about this, please give me hand

[Task]

Have a look at the two shoulder buttons on your neggie.

You might notice that one of them is analog, but the other is solidly digital.

That right there should be all you need in order to determine if you can swap one wire with the other. You could apply your handy voltmeter to it and watch the values rise and fall as you press the button, or you could just swap those two wires and try it out (you'll have a heck of a time driving with your airbrakes reversed, but you can suffer in the name of science and progress, right?) and see if it works.

If it's good, then you should be able to swap any digital lead with an analog lead.

However, since the d-pad is digital and two of the neggie buttons are digital, I'd just swap those. That takes the whole issue and throws it right out the window.

I haven't looked inside my neggie recently, so I don't know for sure if there exists two wires that you can just unsolder and resolder elsewhere, but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be implemented that way. I seem to remember it being fairly low-tech.

Good luck Mano, tell us how it works out.

[Mano]

Thanks task

What im afraid of is to ruin the controller chip if the voltage when i bypass the circuit to a digital one is too high, but i suppose the potentiometer would give around the same value when the analog button is fully pressed, i dont have a voltimeter (this is another one of those time when i regret not buying one) but will borrow one.

the reason i dont use the digital buttons for the mod (B and A) is that i dont like using the analog buttons for thrust, having to fully press the analog is not as comfortable as the digital one and you have to press waaay down to get full throttle, that kinda throws off a little the precision while steering.

about the shoulder buttons thing: its kinda interesting when using them with the brake tapping technique, the right one (digital) i fully press, and the left one (analog) i press slightly, i kinda feel the right one needs a wee bit more of anticipation to use than the left one; its an strange assymetry but doesnt distract from the racing at all

[Lance]

.
Mano, Mano, Mano. so slow. tsk. i found that one about a year and a half ago, just after i got my neGcon, and talked about it with AL. in PMs, i think.
[yeah, i had to get my dig about slowness in here because you're faster than me in the game. sigh. ;) ][but not with Google! :D ] i saved that page somewhere on my hardrive in the neGGie folder of my Wipeout folder.

it's really a neat idea. thanks for thinking of me! :)
a tricky technique to apply in manual shift mode. i have enough trouble with the autoshift.

F355 is such a great game. hard and satisfying to master. not that i've mastered it. any racer who's not had a chance to play it should definitely look for or make the opportunity to do so
.

[Mano]

Lance: Did you get the adapter?, i remember when i had a Dreamcast and it was hard to play racing games on the original controller, difficult to control precision movements.

well i went to the store today and brought my camera, my friend bought the "yellow" controller, i still have my doubts, i could be plastic coloration due to time but im not sure yet, here are the pictures, in comparison with my white controller (which has not much age yellowing) :

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/manoloco/Wipeout/Picture003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/manoloco/Wipeout/Picture.jpg

[eLhabib]

well from the looks of the 2 pics, that's a yellow controller alright. Doesn't look like plastic coloration because of enhanced age to me... it's to consistent over the whole thing. If you open it you will know, for the inside would still be bright white, seeing as no light ever gets in there.

[Lance]

.
WOW! that's a yeLLow neGcon alright. it looks totally original. and it has the oddly curved shoulder buttons too. a rare rare rare collector's piece.

-- --------

no, i didn't get the adaptor. i had zero cash and wouldn't have been able to buy one even if i could find it, so i didn't pursue it. and anyway, i've always found the Dreamcast controller capable of precise racing control, though maybe my definition of precise isn't as extreme as yours? the precision depends on the game; Flag to Flag was very stiff and overreacting in its steering response, but F355 is perfect; it reacts just like a real car driven to or beyond its traction limits. even though the controller is not a steering wheel, the feel of the car is just right, completely convincing, smooth and precise. other games i've tried fall between F to F and F355, but closer to F355
.

[infoxicated]

Maybe your legendary perseverance with F355 led to your own definition of precision with the Dreamcast controller. I cite Bret's Fusion Zone mode control with a humble Dual Shock as another example of this - he can outdo the Neg'ers with it :)

[Lance]

.
well, i'm not legendary, at least not in F355, but if Bret = oggob, oh yeah, he's legendary. and zargz is pretty hot with a D-pad, too.

the Dreamcast controller really does feel very linear in its response to steering inputs. the amount of travel is certainly not equal to a neGon's, but the feeling of precision and predictability is still there, and the degree of control of acceleration and braking with the triggers is superior to a neGcon's analogue buttons
.

[Mano]

Ok we opened the controller to verify the origin of the color, and to check some things to do the mano mod:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/manoloco/Wipeout/Picture008.jpg

so its indeed UV plastic yellowing as i suspected. Luckily it costed cheap to my friend so no loss at all and its in ok working order (needed some silicon grease to lubricate the main spring as it was squeaking a bit)

on the other front from the look of things it seems it wouldnt be too hard to make the mod.

[Task]

Wow, I really didn't think it would be UV yellowing.
I mean, usually you see red muting when that happens, and your buttons and the namco logo are still quite vibrantly red from that picture. I wonder if it's just a, um, "well loved" neggie and hand oils have seeped into the plastic...

[Mano]

LOL :D ......after that comment im not touching it again!

[eLhabib]

ugh, nasty!

btw I am still not fully conviced it really is UV yellowing, the yellow is just too constant in saturation. maybe they assemble them and THEN spraypaint them?

[Mano]

im completely sure its uv yellowing after opening it, spraypainting is not used in controllers (not that i know of), controllers have too many moving parts paint would stuck them, also if they painted it, it would be a lot easier to paint the shell first and then assemble it; but the way they do it is make the plastic in the color needed.

yes i got confused by how even the yellowing is too, but suspected it still since its a very distinctive color and tone. also the buttons were a little bit yellowed (in spite of not being white).

the picture i took when we took it apart is a bit unfocused but is distinctctive of yellowing (borders, and yellowing just in areas where light reaches).

this must have been very exposed to the sun.

[lunar]

Perhaps it belonged to an 80 unfiltered Woodbines a day nicotine and Wipeout addict. Maybe you should give it a sniff test?

[eLhabib]

rofl

one thing I don't understand is how it can also be so thoroughly yellowed on the BACK of the controller! Assuming it has been lying in a showcase for years with sun constantly glaring at it, the back of the controller would have been in the shadows - maybe it was lying in a showcase with mirrors in the back? :? I really don't see any other way it could be so completely yellow.

your neggie is like a crying madonna statue :D mystery and phantasm surrounds it 8O
maybe you should build a shrine :wink:

[Drakkenmensch]

Hold it near a home fire alarm. If the fire alarm goes off, the 40-packs-a-day-addict previous owner theory will be confirmed ;)

[lunar]

As El says, its quite intriguing - of course it could be UV but I think you would expect quite a few inconsistencies in the colour with this. Maybe it could be a manufacturing-fault.

Exposure to a nicotine perma-smog is a valid explanation for the consistent yellowing, and the yellowing of the buttons. You should see the walls of any old British pub that hasn`t been redecorated for a while and which doesn`t operate a clean-air, no atmosphere policy. Or maybe it has lain unused in a student flat since 1995. Have you tried to see if some of the yellow can be scrubbed off? Make sure you put on suitable protective equipment - goggles, acid-proof gloves and radioactive suit - before trying this though.

[Lance]

.
the sheer evenness of the yellow made it look to me as though NAMCO had painted it at the factory before applying the printing. does the printing have a yellow overlay that changes the 'cast' of the text colour?
.

[Mano]

yes, its makes the text a bit duller and yellow, check the picture that compares it with my white negcon, notice how bright the printing is in the white one compared to the "yellow one", also in the picture where its taken apart, look at the " tan line" in the shoulder button, and the middle axis has a yellow strip in the middle, the only exposed place of the "twister"

[Lance]

.
damn. it looked so convincingly original in the pics; i was really hoping you'd discovered a factory-made rarity
.

[Mano]

same boat here Lance, i was hoping so too, it looks very convincing in person, in pictures its even more difficult to spot those things, theres not any place where the controller is uneven in color, only inside, i assume there so much yellowing plastic can have, so at a certain point every part of the controller reached the top yellowing, even if it started to yellow unevenly.

[eLhabib]

Have you tried to see if some of the yellow can be scrubbed off?

I KNOW WHERE THE YELLOW COMES FROM!

ever eaten cheese flips? :D
that stuff sticks like all hell :wink:

[element42]

well, guess what I got in the post today?
a black negcon! :D :D
it doesn't look much smaller than the white ones but it feels so much tinier in your hands... and is it just me, or is it a bit stiffer, perhaps springier, than the white ones? Maybe it's just cos it's new.
now the trouble is, I feel like I hate to use it in case I break it... :roll:

[Drakkenmensch]

*drools over the thought of a BLACK version of the PS controller Holy Grail*