Ughh!! Energy loss on barrel roll.

[JABBERJAW]

Went back to playing pure yesterday, and I can't believe I didn't notice it before, but when you do your barrel rolls, you lose energy. Not good. Yes I know in wipeout 3 you drained your energy with turbo, but you also had a recharge pit that could be accessed even during Time trials, not so in pure. This feels like a punishment for doing the barrel roll. It is fine in arcade mode because you can absorb energy, but really sucks for TT and slows down the game in the end. On the fast speeds there are lots of places you can get off the ground to do the roll, but can't do it because your energy will run out, so you just have to drive along slowly. If there is any possible way to download a fix for this, it would be great. Pure is hard enough on TT without this sort of thing, ard it really takes some enjoyment out of the game.

[Dogg Thang]

Hmmm...I think it's a fair trade-off and something you have to balance. It's simply a fact that you have a finite number of barrel rolls per trial. Asking for damage to be removed would be like asking for infinite turbos. If the damage is a problem, don't use the Zone ship.

[Lion]

Pure is hard enough on TT without this sort of thing, ard it really takes some enjoyment out of the game.I definitely disagree with you there.
we have a few members on these boards that have all the golds, so obviously it's a challenge that's beatable, just the bar is set pretty high.
And personally I think the energy burned on barrel rolls adds a further element of strategy to the timetrials.
if it really gets that close you could always absorb your speed boost

[infoxicated]

Knowing Al, he's not going for golds here - he's going for the quickest time in the world.

That's why it matters to him.

[Sven]

You can't get energy from nowhere...

That being said, the Zone ship can do one barrel roll per lap on Flash & Rapier. I'm not sure about Phantom.

Also, it's an element of strategy that affects everyone equally, so I don't see why it's worth complaining about. The fastest TT in the world will still be the fastest TT in the world whether or not you have energy drains, as long as everyone has the same thing. Besides, you can always just go for a singular best lap as opposed to the whole thing.

[Lance]

.
Al wants it to be more fun by being faster, and therefore more challenging. people at his skill level require more speed to keep it entertaining. there are hardly any people at that skill level, but i can still understand the desire even though i already have more speed than i can handle in the normal Wipeouts
.

[JABBERJAW]

" you can't get energy from nowhere"
So doing a barrel roll for some reason would allow you to get a turbo for no reason :D

Infox and lance are right, I do want it to go faster, and have more skill required. For most people that are playing this game, They will not be able to ever use a barrel roll, because it is really hard to stay off the walls on the fast speeds on TIME TRIAL. This game is not easy. Why have a feature only 10% of the people are going to use. Now for me, I want it for more speed and skill. You might need to turbo up a hill to get into the air to do a barrel roll to get another speed boost upon landing. This is hard to do, but would really be fun, but as it is now, you lose so much energy on this that you can only use one barrel roll(or so) per lap, so the point is moot. The game should be fun, not so unbelieveably hard that you cannot use all the features. It is not infinite turbo because you cannot do it unless you are in the air and you still lose energy from hitting the walls(it's very hard to do perfect laps). I would suggest no energy loss on barrel rolls throughout the whole game. Maybe it could be in the euro version

THESE ARE BUGS IN THE GAME THAT COULD BE FIXED FOR THE EURO VERSION. THIS IS NOT A COMPLAINT FEST, BUT HELP IF YOU STILL CAN WORK ON THE GAME.

1) Sometimes when going off of a jump, upon landing the ship just stops, then resumes normal speed 1/4 of a second later. This is not caused by weapons, but some funky bug

2) Earthquakes hit you even if you are high in the air where the ground wouldn't have a chance of hitting you.

3) I have had my ship face straight down on the track vertically and not be able to move it for 10 seconds until finally it respawned

4) sometimes the ship turns sidways and you cannot get it straighened out for a few seconds even though you have your ship positioned over the track correctly(this was in quantum redshift as well)

5) in modesto hieghts on phantom speed you can turbo over the sign at the end of the straightaway as long as you stay over the track. This is great, but sometimes you will respawn if you go too high( this is slightly random) even if you are over the track and not shortcutting. It shouldn't respawn in this area unless you try to cut through the buildings on your right, or go over them. As long as you are on or over the track it should not respawn.



THINGS I WOULD CHANGE FOR THE EURO RELEASE OR DOWNLOADABLE CONTENT.

1) acceration after taking a weapon hit that stops you. This is WAY too slow, sometimes taking a couple of seconds just to get moving again, even with the high acceleration ships.

2) Sometimes you take a turn too early and hit straight on a stop. This is fine, but the acceleration on this is also WAY too slow. I'm not saying you should instantly be back up to speed, but half the time on this would be nice

3) barrel roll energy loss should be removed as stated earlier

4) I would still personally like a supership at a later date, where you could not allow during multiplayer you wanted to.

speed = 7, acceleration =7 shield = 5 turn = 6

Yes this would be controllable. Possibly have a separate records table for this ship and the zone ship and the midevil ship. that way it would satisfy everybody. name of ship

Barracuda

[Dimension]

Shield drain on barrel roles eh? I never noticed that, then again the needing more speed thing I find to be a kind of redundant complaint; I gave up on it being fast enough when I realised there's little to no top speed difference between the ships, even the fast ships seem to be at about W3O Boricom speed at best and the acceleration *sigh* it'll never be fast enough, but I guess it can't hurt to try for anything to add a little bit more top speed; in that way though it is kinda annoying. Then again is it even enough drain to matter in TT? I mean real time trialing's done on a race long distance rather than lap-long, so it's not really necessary to race Free Play much, there's gotta be enough shield energy for TT Phantom... right? 8O

[JABBERJAW]

not even close to enough energy on some tracks if you want to maximize the amount of times you want to do a barrel roll, and that is without hitting at all. I'm not sure there is enough energy to do much more than one per lap without hitting at all

[Dimension]

Yeah OK so there is definitely a big loss of shield energy, maybe 10% with the Zone Ship and that's gonna be a real pain in the arse if TTing picks up into he race length catagory :? not so much of a problem while we're stuck to single lap stuff though, one flying lap seems possible providing you stay on the track. I noticed though that the auto-healing feature repaired a lot when my barrel roles were fewer and further between, not too helpful if it's Chengou project though :brickwall

[Rapier Racer]

Does the game allow you barrel role your ship untill it blows up?

[Dimension]

no, you get down to energy critical and it deducts your shield energy then repairs it instantly 8O WTF!? The hell is the point in that? If you're gonna lose all your health down to there than why not for the last portion, why the hell did it bother deducting that much? You can't lose that much from wall hits since the slow auto-repair thing counters that. Sure for SR, but why in TT, kinda pointless, but a problem gone since it seems now impossible to die from Barrel Roles :dizzy

*edit* the same seems to apply to track offs, they stop taking your health at the energy critical point too 8O

[JABBERJAW]

I don't think it auto repairs you when you barrel roll(only in free play it does this i think). I think it goes right down to nothing and the next time you hit you die. I'm going to go test this out

[zargz]

2) Earthquakes hit you even if you are high in the air where the ground wouldn't have a chance of hitting you. Actually the same happens in wo3/se - noticed when playing multiplayer 8)
One reason could be the air pressure from the track whent he quake runs through it? :?

[Dogg Thang]

I completely disagree about the barrell roll. You say you want it to have "more skill required". The skill is in learning the best place to use your barrell roll just as you have to learn where to use your one turbo per lap. Why don't you seem to have a problem with just one turbo?

Only 10% of people use the barrell roll? Look, I know you have had great times in the past but you aren't given anyone any credit if you think that only 10% of people use barrell rolls. You make it sound like you are the only person who uses them and so you should dictate how they are used. That is plain wrong.

The limit on barrell rolls adds to the skill needed, it doesn't take away from it.

Like I said before, if you have a problem with the damage, see if you can use a ship that has more shield. That's where the skill is - if you can take a hit on your turning or top speed to get an extra barrell roll per race and come out with a faster time, then that is true skill.

Just to clear up the energy drain - if you get down to a certain energy level, it won't let you barrell roll.

[Lion]

I think he's probably right about only 10 percent or so using barrel roll.
we are a tiny minority on these forums. most people probably won't even use air brakes...
remember that thread recently about cool lover finishing wo3 without airbrakes?

[JABBERJAW]

I actually said only 10% will be able to use the barrel roll a maximum number of times(due to wall collisions). Not that they don't want to use it, but do not have the energy to use it. The way it is set up the highly skilled player has a huge advantage because he never hits the wall(this is not me by the way, I seem to love riding the walls in this game).
However, If energy was not taken from your shield for barrel rolls, a less skilled pilot could use it more often, drive faster, therefore get better, and have more fun. I think the barrel roll is great, there is nothing like pulling it off over a small bump and getting a speed boost out of it. there is absolutely no reason to limit it since there are only certain places it can be done. There would be way more skill involved. Learning where to use one barrel roll per lap requires minimum skill, whereas going off a jump, barrel rolling, getting your boost, then using turbo over the next small bump to barrel roll again for another boost(keeping in mind you have to be really fast with the controller to get that boost) would just be way more fun. In wipeout 3 you can recharge your energy every lap and use your entire boost every lap as long as you do it in certain places.

Who said I liked one turbo per lap? This barrel roll allows for more which is great, and not to mention it's skill based. It's not always easy to do a barrel roll, whereas a turbo is a tap of a button
Don't give somebody a great feature like this roll and then limit it dramatically, it doesn't make sense

[Dogg Thang]

Edit: Ah, now I get you Zoolander and, yep, you're right. Only some people will be able to take full advantage of it - that is precisely where the skill lies.

I see what you mean but I don't share your thinking. Why limit anything? Why limit weapons? Why limit turbos? Why limit yourself to the layout of a track if these are AG vehicles? These are all gameplay limits that makethe game what it is.

[JABBERJAW]

No need to limit something it takes a great deal of skill to recieve, and to make the game faster, harder(making the turns after these barrel rolls is difficult sometimes), and more fun because of the crazy speed after barrel roll, as opposed to slowing to a crawl after every sharp turn, at least it would really get moving sometimes. Turbos being limited to one for TT is fine with me. There is no skill involved in getting it, so why would you want unlimited? It's not the same argument.

ONE MORE ITEM THAT WOULD BE GREAT FOR EURO RELEASE:

1) no weapon fire for the first 10-15 seconds of the race, but still be able to absorb a weapon if wanted. There is way too much fire at the beginning of the race, bring the framerate under 10fps sometimes

[lunar]

If we must have barrel rolls then the system we have is perfect, I think. It rewards more skilled pilots over race length TTs, because less wall hits = more rolls. Having limited barrel rolls also introduces more strategy, which means better gameplay. I kind of see eye to eye with Al in that I think the basic speed of Phantom class should be faster, but also think that along with this barrel rolls should be done away with.

The very concept of a barrel roll is gimicky and a bit random when you think about it, and some courses, eg Vineta, are made slightly annoying in TT by the fact that the best lap times depend on squeezing in special moves. Having to do l-r-l in a trillionth of a millesecond every time my ship goes over a molehill is not my idea of what TT racing should be about. The problem is compounded by the fact that sometimes the game doesn`t give you the boost anyway – even if you execute the l-r-l or r-l-r correctly. If I`m on lap 5 and miss a record because I failed to barrel roll quickly enough over one of those little step-downs on Vineta K, or because the game decided I wouldn`t get my boost this time, I`m going to be pretty annoyed with it. If I miss the time because I hit a wall or miss a pad I`ll be annoyed with myself, but that`s fine. That`s what its all about.

The practice of squeezing in barrel rolls in places other than the big jumps is analogous to shortcutting in Wipeout3. I don`t mean that its cheating….. I mean that its what realistic pilots will do, and should do, to take advantage of what the game offers to get the lowest possible times. Where shortcutters and barrel-bandits* part company is that in taking a shortcut the pilot is simply following a new course, using his flying skill and vision to do so, and the game still flows. In using a barrel-roll the pilot introduces a new kind of move or skill which, to me, doesn`t really belong in the game. Using barrel rolls is not about vision of the track ahead, its about twitching your left thumb. If you follow it to its logical conclusion Wipeout Pure, when seeking top times, could become an endless sequence of jump, barrel roll, boost and over again ad infinitum until the feeling of flying, floating and sweeping round the course, which we all love, is lost altogether. Reductio ad absurdum to the gameplay.

Yes, barrel rolls are fun and they by no means ruin the game, but as a necessary condition of achieving fast lap times on some courses in the game they reduce the quality of the overall racing experience. This should be countered by saying that without them Wipeout Pure would definitely be too slow, which brings me back to the original point that if they are got rid of the basic speed of the game should be faster (to keep Al happy amongst other reasons ;) ) and the ships floatier too.

I still love the game though, and I`m as much of a barrel-bandit as the next man. ;)


* A pilot who uses barrel rolls to decrease his lap times at every opportunity.

[Lion]

I'm not gonna comment on the main theme of your post, but as to it not giving you the boost sometimes, usually that's because you didn't complete the barrel roll in time, there's usually an audio cue to let you know that your ship has hit the deck.
your mileage may vary, but I've found that to be the only reason for not getting the boost myself. what I find a bigger problem is the times when it simply refuses to initiate the barrel roll

[lunar]

Yes, initiating the barrel-roll may be a bigger problem. Its too fiddly to pull off, and sometimes it just doesn`t work. Or it will roll a second or so after you l-r-l, and thus be too late to get the boost effect.

I accept your point about not completing it in time - this is mostly the case. Though sometimes I`ve done the roll, got the boost sound effect, but not got the boost itself. In some places there is such a fine line between completing the roll or not that whether you get the boost or not is almost beyond your control. Try the first little jump on Vineta K and you`ll see what I mean.

[eLhabib]

I think the barrel roll definitely needs to take off some shield energy, for a strategic quality, as mentioned before. however, I fully understand that it can be annoying at times when you don't have enough energy left to do a roll whenever you feel like it. AND, I just had the idea that would solve this problem completely, without taking away the challenge, but actually adding to it. THERE GOES: FULL ENERGY REPLENISHED UPON PERFECT LAPS! as easy as that.

[phoenixx]

great idea. anybody in liverpool listening?

[Dogg Thang]

I disagree.

While I like the idea of rewarding perfect laps, the flip side of that is that it would punish too harshly for the slightest scrape. It would end up being the case that, as soon as you touched the wall, you would just quit the race and start again because you would know you won't be able to barrel roll to a better time.

Possibly just a slight increase in energy with perfect laps but then that also disturbs the balance of the ships too, making shield strength even less of a consideration than it already is (which isn't much). Nah, I think SL got this one right as is. Or, as Lunar suggests, drop it altogether.

[Egg]

sometimes I`ve done the roll, got the boost sound effect, but not got the boost itself.

I think this happens if you've just activated a Turbo Pickup, either before the jump, or whilst soaring. Personally, I find the Barrel Roll easy to do, even on the faster classes.

Note that I use the D-Pad and not the Stick

[lunar]

I changed from pad to stick because I can only do them reliably with a stick...... :?:

I agree they`re easy enough to do on big jumps if you`re concentrating. I think its the ad hoc barrel rolls off small steps and bumps that detract from the game and change its focus, when playing for times. If barrel rolls were unlimited it would make this even worse. Maybe there could have been barrel-roll zones, with it being impossible to do them elsewhere. Not sure if this is a practical idea though.

DT: good thinking.

On tracks like Modesto and Chenghou at Phantom TT it really can get uncertain whether you`ll be able to do two rolls per lap and still make the end in one piece. This adds a lot of tension to the game, which is good.

[Dimension]

Also of note to this argument is that barrel rolls, energy loss and all, work in Zone mode. "You'll not notice it!" you claim? You may just on syncopia, i just had a rare blast around there and pulled off two accidental barrel roles on the wall-less drops section. Simply get a little off line and corrective action may just, as it did with me, result in a barrel roll! This should have been disposed of! :mr-t

[Dogg Thang]

Yeah, that unintended barrell roll thing can happen in Phantom too because there are a lot of places that you are technically in the air.

[username]

ive been reading this topic and i havent got pure yet because i live in england :cry:
and i hear you talking about barrel rolls, does this mean that when you fly off the edge of high ledges you can roll, if so what is the button :?

[Sausehuhn]

watch this movie and you will know what a barrel roll is :D

>> click here! (http://media.psp.ign.com/media/682/682962/vid_1074360.html?mu=http%3A%2F%2Fstreamingmovies.i gn.com%2Fpsp%2Farticle%2F597%2F597520%2Fwipeoutpur e_raw_4_wmvlow.wmv)

[lunar]

you press left - right - left or right - left -right quickly on the pad or stick.

its not just high ledges that enable you to barrel roll either. You can do it off a suprising number of lower locations, particularly in the faster classes.

and btw just because you live in England doesn`t mean you can`t have a PSP and Pure, though there`s not so long to wait for the official euro release now. :D

[zargz]

Ha! Finally a vdo of pure with some Good speed in it! http://www.geocities.com/zargz/leenden/ok.gif

[username]

i think the official release date is 1st september, i recently went to florida a few weeks ago and went into a game shop and asked for a demonstration on pure 8) . it was exellent! :lol:

[phoenixx]

I didn't want to buy a psp. til I saw wo pure. so it was a must. there's the fever again...

[JABBERJAW]

The idea of killing the barrel roll and making it way faster is a nice idea. I don't mind the roll, I kinda like it, but if that is what it would take to make it move faster, I'm all for it. Powerdrome had one great Idea. If you do not hit for a certain amount of time you recieved a turbo. this could be instilled in pure in that if you did not hit for 10 seconds you would recieve the same amount of energy back that a barrel roll takes off, this way, you wouldn't barrel roll if you knew you were going to hit the wall because of it.

[infoxicated]

That would be cool - kind of like Burnout 2, except that instead of building up a boost by taking risks, you build up boost by good piloting. :)

[Mobius]

The barrel roll is just the hyperthrust feature a bit snazzed up I think.

That isnt too bad is it?

[Lance]

.
+1 on Al's idea; sounds very practical and um... ethical and um... aesthetically right
.

[lunar]

Not hitting the wall is its own reward..... and results in faster lap times even without giving you extra turbos. It could lead to what DT described above - more restarts because you know you don`t have a chance after a slight wall hit.

What I would like to see is an end to the separation between lap and race times which you get in Pure TT, aswell as in 2097 when not using the Piranha. Because of the boost over the start line trick you can either go for lap records or race records at any one time. You`re very unlikely to get your best possible lap record while going for a best race time. Barrel rolls add to this, because in a race time attempt you will do better to budget them over the race, but in a lap time attempt you`ll just go all out for everything. In Pure you`d be crazy to use anything but Free Play for lap records, which means you have two different game modes for lap and race time attempts. I`m being really perfectionist, but I think this separation between lap and race times is unsatisfactory and I would like to think there could be a solution apart from having a 2097 Piranha type supership.The nice thing about that Piranha is you just race for all records - lap or race - at the same time.

[Lance]

.
not to be contrary for the hell of it, but some of my Qirex firsts in lap and full race in XL version came in the same race
.

[lunar]

I don`t want to be contrary either 8) but maybe you would have gone even faster with another strategy..... :wink:

[Sven]

Because of the boost over the start line trick you can either go for lap records or race records at any one time. You`re very unlikely to get your best possible lap record while going for a best race time. Barrel rolls add to this, because in a race time attempt you will do better to budget them over the race, but in a lap time attempt you`ll just go all out for everything.That's exactly why I think they should keep the separation between lap and race records. They're two different things, and both have their place.

[lunar]

I didn`t mean that both lap and race times shouldn`t be recorded - of course they should. I meant it would be better not to have to race with the aim of going for either one or the other in a race, if you want to get the fastest times you possibly can. I think its better to just race the whole race as fast as you can and if you get a personal best lap in the process - great. :D This is what happens in real motorsport - not blasts for one lap with the aim of setting lap records.

Of course if you meant you want to race for lap and race records on seperate occasions that`s fine too, just not my preference. 8)

[Lance]

lunar, i've tried multiple ways, but with one exception, ultimate times don't seem to be all that different with different approaches. mostly less than the differences created by minor flaws in execution. i wish i could remember what that exception is, but i'm sure i will find out when i play that game again. it's been many months since i have
.