Grand Prix World Cup

[Lance]

.
what do you F1 fans think of this GPWC development? will it result in the destruction of F1 and the Bernie Ecclestone Empire? or will it revivify F1by forcing change to meet its challenge? what will it do to car design and the way the races are run? will it turn into yellow flags for every scratch on the car just to keep everybody jammed close together for the entire race? will it be the death of turbocharging?
.

[Mobius]

What is GPWC?

[Thruster2097]

I believe Lance is refering to the A1GP www.a1gp.com
25 drivers, 10 rounds at circuits arould the world.
The cars are identical, each having Lola chassis and Zytek V8 engines (both british ((therefore unreliable)) engineering).
There is one driver per country.
Each driver represents their country.

It truly is the world cup of motorsport, and now with the crazy new regulations imposed onto F1, I cannot wait for this to start.
It is not designed to directly compete with ecclestone's circus parade, because the A1GP will be held in the winter season. The first race is at Brands Hatch in the UK, just a few miles away from my house, and I really would like to go, only problem is they would like to use the long track, however, they only have an offical FIA licence for the short indy track. The owners of the track are supposedly "working on it". Pfssh!
I have also seen these new cars running at the birmingham autosport show in janurary this year. Look very similar to F1, but just dont have the power.

[Asayyeah]

No i don't believe Lance is referring to A1GP. It's totally different.
A1GP has the approval of FIA/FOM , it's a part of it...

GPWC is the answer to FIA from the major F1team ( except Ferrari : due to the pressure of Jean Todt to have a special gift of 100 Million $ from Bernie's empire to keep ferrari inside the F1 world)
GPWC could appear in 2008 if Bernie don't share his profit in a larger way to the F1 Team.

Bernie is killing the F1 spirit. GPWC could be the best successor to F1

[Thruster2097]

hmmm... well in that case sorry lance :(
I will have to look out for GPWC information.

My dream championship would be a "free formula". Manufacturers and privateers could do whatever they wanted to. Cars would be restricted to an absolute minimum of 4 wheels, and provided they have a driver safety system (rollcage) fitted, and there are no obvious pertrusions or weapons on the car, then it's all good!

[Lance]

.
'' ...no obvious pertrusions or weapons on the car...''
lol :)
hm... what about non-obvious weapons? [nefarious evil]

basically, the Grand Prix World Cup is a car constructors revolution against Bernie Ecclestone. much as the CART [Championship Auto Racing Teams] rebelled against the United States Auto Club and started their own series which, except for the Indianapolis 500 which stayed under USAC, replaced the old organisation for all championship races. [Indy Racing League was, i think, a late response to CART.]

Bernie is giving the equivalent of 150 million US dollars to Ferrari [who have been making noises about dropping out of racing entirely] [really stupid move in my opinion since the whole foundation of their sales has always been the reputation of their historic racing victories, as long as they kept racing even though losing part of the time] to stay with the current F1 organisation. all the other manufacturers are currently discussing going to GPWC, one of whose goals is to stabilise regulations from year to year [to avoid Bernie's dictatorial whims] so as to keep racing costs lower, but make sure that the cars will still be the fastest roadracing cars in the world, presumably by disallowing the expense and complexity of turbocharging, and making the engines much larger. another goal is to spread the income from all sources around amongst the manufacturers and racetrack owners instead of the organisation being allowed to keep so much of it for the administration. very different from the Bernie and Max show. Grand Prix World Cup would be a replacement for F1 since there would not be enough money for the manufacturers to fund two top level race series for the top performance level cars.
.

[Thruster2097]

I have heard rumors about a world cup of F1 cars, but I thought it culminated in the A1gp (you can see where I got confused - they are both being touted as THE world cup of motorsports)
I believe that anyone who is passionate about motor racing would make the switch. The new rules and regulations regarding the current F1 are dire. After all, If I wanted to see F1 cars moving slowly, I will go to a museum.
And that is shocking news about bernie's bribe to ferrari. I had no idea this happened. 8O
I know that Eddie Jordan would have gone for a breakaway formula, but since he doesnt have involvement in a race team now that is out of the question.
Honda and Toyota could easily make the switch, and it would be interesting if companies like Nissan, Mazda, Porsche and Lamborghini could compete.

As for the death of the turbocharger, it very much seems so. Turbos can provide big power, but drivers have to battle with turbo lag. Superchargers are the way forward, providing instant power increases. But with common engine technology in cars (roadcars are now reaching 100bhp/litre) is it necessary to increase it at all?

[Lance]

.
even mechanical superchargers are expensive and difficult to work with, no matter which type is used. [i would prefer to see F1 or equivalent race without them but use engines of 5 or more liters. hm.. a seven liter V-16 Honda, maybe? yikes!]

back in the late 40s/early 50s, Alfa-Romeo's type 158/9 got 525 horsepower from a 1.5 liter straight eight engine by using two-stage mechanical supercharging and alcohol fuel. the complexity of the supercharger drives and the difficulty of getting the correct fuel mixture made things difficult and expensive. and that was nothing compared to what would be done with mechanical supercharging now. if they want to keep costs down, they probably would go with atmospheric pressure aspiration only. [i do love mechanical supercharging though.]

the GPWC does have as one of its stated goals the allowance of technical innovation, and of a type that can be reasonably applied to normal roadgoing passenger cars
.

[Seek100]

As for the death of the turbocharger, it very much seems so. Turbos can provide big power, but drivers have to battle with turbo lag. Superchargers are the way forward, providing instant power increases. But with common engine technology in cars (roadcars are now reaching 100bhp/litre) is it necessary to increase it at all?

Actually the WRC solved that problem several years ago, since the Audi Quattro no WRC car has ever won the championship without 4 wheel drive and a turbocharger. What they do is pump petrol directly into the turbocharger which ignites and starts it spinning straight away so there's no need to wait for the exhaust gasses to 'spool up' the turbo. This ofcourse leads to a tremendous reduction in the lifespan of the engine in question but since the entire car only has to last 1 rally it's considered an acceptable reduction for humungous boost (pun intended) in power given at low revs - WRC cars have no turbo lag at all.

[zargz]

what is turbo lag? 8O

Praeterea censeo autopilotum esse delendam

[Lance]

.
an example of what used to be done with a simple and relatively cheap F1 car:
the 750kg, non-supercharged 6 litre V-16 Auto-Union [now Audi] Typ C. 190 miles per hour in 1936 and '37. :) 304 kph. with one overhead cam per cylinder bank and only 2 valves per cylinder and old-fashioned carburetors. just think of what a 6 or 7 liter engine could do with modern valve gear and fuel injection and modern racing tires.
the link is to a pic of a reproduction of this Auto-Union type C running at Goodwood in 1998:
http://www.pirro.com/german/pirro/Galleries.Eventi/Goodwood.98/Auto.Union.Pirro.Goodwood.009.htm
.

[Thruster2097]

I have the DVD of the auto-union running the goodwood hill! Also when the fiat mephostopheles (sp?) took to the track. (I believe that had an airship engine?) I started going to goodwood from 2002. Awesome engineering feats from when engineers cared and drivers were real men.

For modern power, I can only think of one true example. The Bugatti EB16/4 Veyron.
W16 engine, 4 turbos, supposed 1001bhp. Bugatti engineers are still trying to figure out methods for adequate braking, steering and cooling. They created a monster!

[Lance]

.
yep, that old Mephistopheles was a huge beast. it had either a Zep engine or one from a fighter plane. maybe a Maybach. hm... now i have to find out for sure.. i hate not knowing for sure. back in a Venom, er... Flash.

Driver Ernest Eldridge (Great Britain)
Car Fiat "Mephistopheles" (Great Britain)
Date
Speed 12th July 1924
145.89 mph (k)
Place Arpajon, France
Power Source 21,714cc A-12 BIS aircraft engine. 6 cylinders. Final drive - chain
Max power 300 bhp at 1,400rpm
Where is it now? Fiat Centro Storico, Turin, Italy

drivers and engineers used to be heroes, now they're too often businessmen or too controlled by businessmen
.

[Thruster2097]

Heroes.
That's the word I was searching for.
Heroes.
Pioneers of their sport who were willing to risk their lives just to compete.

Kind of like the very first a-g test pilots who took their first flights on april 14th 2035.
or is that too wipeout-esque for this conversation?
[/random factoids]