Well I went and gone and done it

[brokenvoice]

Today I just couldn't take anymore of it. Fusion has just too many issues for me to go on wishing I liked it, pretending I like it. It went to the trade in rack.

I like parts of it and those parts I like a lot. I wasn't keen on the progression route, but the gameplay wasn't the issue. The visual style wasn't the issue.

I'm afraid I have to criticize both the developers and Sony for releasing it. The hardware wasn't ready for the software and because the aim was too high, it missed by too wide a mark.

Most people on here (esp. from the W3PA board) know that I am pretty fair minded and always willing to give things a chance but it's just too shoddy. If I was new to the Wipeout franchise, I don't think I'd have waited this long to trade it in.

I needed to raise these issues, but I'm not looking to just shout off with "Fusion suxx0rz". This board has grownups on it and it's best to leave that kind of cack to the official forum (though it is creeping in here). So I'm looking for some intelligent comment and discussion on the subject.

[infoxicated]

I'm sorry it didn't turn out to be what you'd hoped for. I have to say I agree with you partly - Wipeout 3 is still the best of the lot for me. It's all about pure racing, not gimicks and I'm afraid Fusion has way too many of the latter to appeal to me as much as 3SE does.

However, I still think it's a decent game - the AI leaves every other racing game standing and the speed the game engine can reach is astounding. The effects are nice too and a couple of the tracks have fantastic design.

I don't think it's the best in the series by a long shot, but I'm not convinced it's the worst game for the PS2 either.

Maybe it has fallen between two stools - it's not pure enough for the fans and it's not gimicky/arcadey enough to attract the casual gamer.

[brokenvoice]

Oh absolutely Foxxy, I wasn't meaning to imply I thought it was a minging game. The speed is incredible (without the occasional but serious slow-down) and yes, the majority of the tracks are very well designed. I'll miss Florion 3 Reverse the most.

Let's face it, it was never going to live up to hardcore Wipers' hopes. We had waited so long and heard so many rumours. Perhaps Sony felt pressured into releasing it in (to me) an unfinished position. We were all clamouring for it and the 14 (ish) months extra waiting gave our imaginations too much of a chance to run riot.

No game is perfect, I know that. I've worked in the games industry as a texture artist and I know all about deadlines and pressure to get it out the door.

I would have glady sacrificed 8 of the other racers to have more of the PS2's power given over to ironing out the slow-down, the black-outs. Colision problems? Pah...every game has them so that was never an issue.

Back on the W3PA boards I mentioned that maybe Fusion was going to be too late, that may have come true. Friends who are casual fans of WO3 and WO3:SE showed a lot of disappointment with Fusion. Gaming has moved on a lot even since WO3 and maybe in their rush to keep up, Studio Liverpool felt the need for the gimmicky stuff, but for me it wasn't going in the right direction.

If there is ever going to be another Wipeout, I'd like to see a return to the progression route of WO3... not as a step backwards, but because it seems the most logical to me, I'd like to see more quality control and I'd like to see less of those smeggin' electric nets :smile:

But will there ever be another Wipeout?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: brokenvoice on 2002-03-01 22:49 ]</font>

[infoxicated]

This board has grownups on it and it's best to leave that kind of cack to the official forum (though it is creeping in here).

I forgot to tackle this one in my last post.

I'm not sure what you mean with that - as far as I can see we've maintained the maturity and level of respect for each other that we always had on the W3PA board. Believe me when I say that I would step in very firmly if anyone behaved even close to some of the f*ckwits on the official board.

I'm not having 11 year olds using this as a playground/chatroom, so it ain't goanna happen.

Wam' 'n' Lan' (!) should also be on the lookout for that kind of thing too, just in case I'm not around.

[Lance]

i can think of one episode where a new member's first post started off with saying that a particular version of wipeout 'suxx'. both Rob and I pointed out why it was in fact excellent. after that, the new member's remarks were reasonable and thoughtful. other than that, all i've seen is a certain youthful enthusiasm from some of the posters, but not the adolescent posturing so frequently found on the official Fusion forum.

as far as Fusion's quality is concerned, even though i've not played it, i've read so many descriptions of its features and playability, plus seeing about 8 videos, that i feel i know enough about it to comment. from my point of view, it should drop the shortcuts, add records for single race and TT. [the records might be a little difficult to implement unless all competitors have the same level of upgrade, making it similar to classes in the earlier versions of WO]. have a physics engine more like WO3, and fix a bug or 2, though no game is likely to be bugfree, some are certainly acceptable as long as the game is generally satisfying. eliminate damage simulation, because if the ship has shields, there is going to be no physical or performance damage till the shields fail, at which point damage would be final and catastrophic, as it has been in the first 3 wipEouts.

some of the innovations of Fusion are interesting: the having of arenas with 3 track variations each. reverse mode allowed by the liftfans. zone mode. ship upgrades. even the flip pads. the loops may be a bit of a thrillride stunt, but i still like the idea. i've done loops on other games, and i like the sensation.

the game as it stands does have a lot of what we hardcore racers regard as weaknesses. in my opinion, these were forced on the designers by Sony as an attempt to make the game more popular than WO3. Rob makes a good point about these features as going too far for us, and not far enough for mass popularity. it's the trying to appeal to everybody syndrome. that pretty much never works. game development for the high-powered new consoles, especially for the ps2, is expensive, and requires massive sales to pay for, so we're probably going to see a lot more of this broad appeal compromise then even was seen in the past.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lance on 2002-03-02 03:51 ]</font>

[infoxicated]

The problems with Fusion are that some of the things that have been done in an attempt to be cool and radical have missed the mark and end up being annoying.

Stuff like the shortcuts and big boulders in the middle of the track are just stupid and have no place in a serious racing game which has always been about speed around fixed tracks.

Then there are smaller concerns, like the energy barriers that shut off parts of courses when you're running a different variation of it. These spin the craft around when you hit them - on Florion 1 reverse and Temtesh Bay 3 reverse there are two in particular which turn the game into a farce.

You can be bumped into the wall by other crafts and equally you can be bumped into the energy barriers. More often than not - that's it - race over because you're facing the wrong way either into on-coming traffic or the time taken to turn around gives you no chance to recover.

It's just very irritating, it adds nothing to the game and due to the fact you're given no warning whatsoever which variation of the track your racing at the start (try remembering which version of a track you're racing on in event 7 of a league series), you will hit these things even if you're trying your best to avoid them.

On Zone mode these energy barriers are just a joke - you can go through them after Zone 25 and that usually means that 4 or more perfect laps and an entire attempt to progress are cancelled out by one mistake.

It's madness - I cannot fathom why these things seemed to be a worthwhile feature.

And on the subject of things I cant fathom is the way that Anti-Gravity craft can lose "grip" during the freeform areas. Why? These things float above the ground - the surface should have no bearing at all on the way the craft handles. But no - on the dusty areas the ship handles like a hover-mower, suddenly robbed of all aerodynamic properties.

I asked Rob Francis about this one, because of all the things (except the energy barriers) this is the one that vexes me most. He told me that they put it in and he "thought it worked well".

So that's what it boils down to, I guess - the man in charge of directing the development of the game had a different idea of what the game was all about than I did. And I cant blame Rob for that - it was his take on it and he has been honest enough to tell me in detail about issues involved in creating the game.

At the end of the day, I work along the corridor from a team of guys who worked like dogs to bring this game out. Every one of the team cares a great deal about the game. So I'm not going to character assasinate them for delivering a game that doesn't fit my vision, or that of a lot of other people.

It's not perfect, but it does have enough likeable features to keep me entertained and it does feel like Wipeout. Even if it isn't what I wanted to be, Wipeout Fusion is still a fine game and it does add something to the series.

All I can hope for is that the next edition is closer to what I think Wipeout is. :smile:

[UncleZeiv]

foxy I completely agree with you. 100%. Can I add my signature under your post? :smile:

[vincoof]

What surprise me most in everyone's post is the way you talk about the game being more "WO3-ish" or fitting more the game of your dreams.

What do those comparisons mean ?

The game doesn't need to look like WO1 or 2097 or 3SE or even GT or DOA or whatever to be a great game.

The game has is own style. You like it or not, so play it or leave it.

Of course it could be more "Wipeout-ish".
Of course it could fit better your dreams.
Of course it could have less bugs.
Of course it could BE A DAMN PERFECT GAME.

But why are we moaning about what the game *could* be ?
Why do not we just enjoy the game as it is now, and as it will be forever ?


When I first had WO3, I was really disappointed by the weapons visual effects (because I think they look better in wo2097) and I thought it removed a lot in the game.
I litterally hated the game for that.
But then I realized that in fact it had nothing to do with what the game really is. It only had to do with my f*ckin' dreams because of course I wanted wo3 to be perfect.
And when I started playing for the game and only the true game (not for the game of my dreams) I enjoyed the game as never, and I was really stuck down to discover how much fun I could get from this game.

I think the same is happening for Fusion.
Of course we see many glitches, and some are better or worse than others. But what's wrong ? All in all we could always deal with the glitches in other Wipeouts, so why couldn't we simply do the same with Fusion ?


I conclusion, what I want to say is :
Please be positive, and you'll naturally play the game. I don't guarantee that you'll love the game, but just that you'll get your controller to play a game, not to judge it.
If you are negative, you'll certainly feel that the game lacks this or that and you'll never enjoy the game as it is really worth it.

Just my 5 cents (because it's a long post)

Thanx for reading so far.

[BenjaminSoulé]

But why are we moaning about what the game *could* be ?
Why do not we just enjoy the game as it is now, and as it will be forever ?


Just because they wrote "Wipeout" on it.

I mean when you want to use a popular game name, you have to deserve it otherwise you're a thief.

Sony bought your leniency with this name

Imagine, another name, another musics, no auricom,pirhana and Feisar, no temtesh bay --> This game could have been a Wipeout clone, and not the best.

Why sould we be more tolerant with this game than with Fzero or Starwar Racer... because it's a Studio liverpool game ?

These japanese guy who made ace-speeder was only four and the game is clean and really playable.
So if I have to be more tolerant with glitches and gameplay I prefer to be more tolerant with this kind of game.

( I still prefer Utah Saint to Kazumasa
Kohara :grin: )


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BenjaminSoulé on 2002-03-04 09:18 ]</font>

[AmishRobot]

Good point. In using the name Wipeout, Sony are hoping to capitalize largely on a name that means something to people, and therefore have expectations to live up to. But a lot of our expectations *are* unrealistic.

My idea of the perfect Wipeout is very different from what a lot of other's is. To me, the combat is more important than racing. Some people (a lot on the Fusion forums, it seems) would have preferred a cleaned up version of WOSE, but that would have been pathetic. It needed to change if it were going to be remade.

What's important to retain is the fundamental spirit of the previous games, and from what I've seen (haven't played it), Fusion's done a good job of that. I agree with Foxy that the freeform areas stray a bit too far from the concept of a professional racing leage, and also about the change in physics on different surfaces, but at least they're trying new things. A few "rally" type tracks added in as bonuses would have been cool. And a few of the other ideas are awesome.

As for as glitches, both XL and WO3 had lots of game-killing glitches. I never found any in W'O"1, but the tracks in that were basically one big glitch of seams. (still fun tho!) I'll take good design over polish any day, and I think GTA3 proved that most others will as well, if the design is good enough.

Part of me wants to believe this could have all been avoided if they have paid more attention to fans like the ones here when designing the game, but honestly I believe focus groups and market surveys kill the spirit of creativity. It's best to just leave artists alone and have a little faith that they "get it". From what I've seen, these guys have done a good job.

Hopefully I'll get a chance in the near future to make a more informed decision.

[vincoof]

I agree that the game could be more Wipeout-ish.
It could always be.

But I disagree about the fact that Sony spoils the game.

The only point that bothers me about the Wipeoutishness (wow, what a word!) is that Wipeout Fusion almost completely loses the "floating feeling".

Apart from that (big) mistake, the game is really a great game and has a lot of cool keys that other Wipeouts have.

Which points make you feel that the game is not worthy of the 'Wipeout' title ?

[BenjaminSoulé]

mainly the "floatind feeling".
secondly, the bugs.

There are not like Wo1,2,3 bugs, In fusion you have to escape them for your survival :
In Vohl Square (2 forward I think)with pirhana you have be aware of your altitude at each end of lap otherwise you will fly over the finishline and never finish the lap.
The 180° when hiting electric-barrier, the all white view when you're firing plasma just because you're using inside view (but not wih auricom ??), the random respawn, the "jump into the sky" bug in mandrashee and katmoda12...

All this problems are really affecting gameplay... The Wo1,2,3 bugs are not the same.

PC devellopers sometime release game with bugs but patch could correct it. Here, there's no patch, it's a playstation game.

When I buy a cheap non-famous game, I'm used to see such glitches and bugs.
For Fusion the develloper, editor and gamename are famous and I was waiting for fusion for 1 year (I bought my PS2 for this game ONLY one year ago).

They stole my money, PS2 game are so low quality game that my PS2 only run PS1 game :smile:
and even Wipeout was one of them.
I don't know where's the problem, I read somewhere that PS2 is a really difficult machine for coding.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: BenjaminSoulé on 2002-03-04 23:08 ]</font>

[Wamdue]

Ive too chosen to see Wipeout Fusion for what it is and not what it could be, but I like it. I think some of the team personalities are a bit too cartoonish for me, but, doesnt matter that much.

Wam´n´Lan haha! of course im/we´re on the look-out to keep our forum as good as it can be, but sometimes im just a bit afraid of moving posts and etc,unless I see some obvious spam or commercial stuff. or if id ever see offensive material wich hasnt happened yet here, and knock wood.. never will happen.

[Lance]

i've stomped a few spam posts out of existence, but there have been hardly any of them to exterminate. needing to move topics is a little more common. i hesitate to go beyond that because i don't want to abuse the power by letting my own opinions or biases get out of hand. i have stepped in a couple of times lately to say something that seemed to need saying, but i hope i didn't go too far.

heh- Lan. that's the playername i use to save games to memory cards when they only allow 3 letters.

[AmishRobot]

Wam'n'Lan... that reminds me of an old Genesis game called Wiz'n'Liz. You two need your own game! :lol:

If Wamdue is a mod, why doesn't he have his own ship image?

[vincoof]

I don't know where's the problem, I read somewhere that PS2 is a really difficult machine for coding.

Yes and no.
Yes it's a bit hard to code, but no it's not a problem.
Since the first of all consoles, there have always been some machines more or less difficult to code with, but development teams could always deal with it.
I mean, that's true that it's hard to code with it, but that's not an excuse.

IMO, the problem is that the game was rushed because it was developed for a too long time, but if the game was released a few months later, I bet that more than 90% of the bugs would have been wiped out :smile:

Though, the game would be almost bug-free, BUT it would still contain its game design lacks, such as the 2-physics (air/ground) concept.

Personnaly I would have waited that long if needed. I use to be patient (and they force us to be anyway :wink: ).


AmishRobot: Yes Wamdue is a mod, and yes he could have a pic. But if he wants a pic, (i) he needs to choose a craft and (ii) infoxx have to create the pic and attach it to Wamdue's account.

[Hyper Shadow]

Hmmmm..This seems to be an interesting topic.

After all of the slagging off that I heard around the 'Official' Board, picking up Fusion was knd of dulled from what it started as, also the dull zone mode demo (I think that I now have an infamous public dislike of zone mode) but when I picked it up and actually played it, I loved it!!!

Now I am aware that not everyone is going to love this game, everyone who buys a PS2 magazine will know that if they want you to buy a racing game, its going to be GT3 (and now its platinum.....:eek:....BAD MOVE) but I hate that game, its life comes from getting through, REALLY easy leagues then having to complete 2 HOUR endurance races, that is just lazy, who has time to play for two hours?

If I was to get rid of a few things from fusion to make it better, I would get rid of:

1)Free-form; the handling is wrong on it, full stop
2)Shortcuts; Takes out skill if you miss one
3)High weapon frequency; How many times has a race degenerated to a shoot out
4)How CPU ships easily eliminate other CPU's; How many times has a Tigron ended a race with 3 or more kills and beaten you, I know that they are violent, but lets be fair, eh?
5)The superiority of the Pirhana; cos you cn't do time trial mode without it, then it makes it too easy
6)Temtesh 3; those smeggin' stupid jumps.

Other than that the game is great. I admit however, that I have put it aside and gone back to playing THPS3 to beat my scores (Bam Margera Rulez!).

Its going to be a long time until we see another WipEout game so we should savour every moment.

Oh, and on another note, I feel that shops do promote Fusion. I was in the local Video Games Emporium (Chip Shop 2000) playing JSR:Future and talking about Fusion when the shop keeper pulled down the 6 foot screen and offered to play me at Fusion. People definatly asked about the game after that :wink:

[Lance]

James: Rob needs the time to make the logo. he did mine while he was sick at home. [which in the case of the Piranha involves selecting half of the pic, and mirroring the ship image left to right, but leaving the text unmirrored.]

it doesn't have to be a ship, of course, but i suspect that Wam would like a Xios. hm, Wam 'n' Lan - Jak 'n' Daxter sorta? i volunteer to be the smarta&&; i am so well suited to the part.

Alun: how did JSR Future look and play? the published screenshots i've seen look even cooler than the designs on the original version on the Dreamcast.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lance on 2002-03-05 16:04 ]</font>

[infoxicated]

Actually, I didn't have a picture of the Xios in the same format as the other ships.

I'll try and source one for Wam!

[Lance]

so far, all i've seen of Xios is that blackline drawing on yellow wallpaper and the isometric view from the team profile of the official site. it would be nifty if all the teams had something like the ''Ready to play with fire?'' wallpaper for the Tigron. it was a yellow background, but that could be changed if desired.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Lance on 2002-03-05 16:24 ]</font>

[Hyper Shadow]

JSRF plays incredibly sweet!! I loved the first game, but only after a while, it takes to to get to grips with the controls. But the whole control system is a bit easier, boost costs 10 paint cans, but is well worth it to get the rocket blur! The challenge to get new characters is roughly the same but better. Spray painting has lost the joystick waggling technique and simply become a button press over a set number of icons. The graphics move very smoothly and the whole look is just improved.

If you liked the first one, this one is the natural evolution and some. It is SEGA at its best, this should shift heavy copies for the X-Box. It makes me want to get one now...

[jmoid]

Oh, and on another note, I feel that shops do promote Fusion. I was in the local Video Games Emporium (Chip Shop 2000) playing JSR:Future and talking about Fusion when the shop keeper pulled down the 6 foot screen and offered to play me at Fusion. People definatly asked about the game after that :wink:
ha! cool! :smile: