17.92 wit the D-Pad!

[QOORA]

GEEEZ!!!!! Yes, I did it!!!!!!!! I got under 18 seconds! on Porto Cora TT W3 SE and I did it wiv my ol' good Dual Shock2:P!!!!
Thx Assayeah... I don't know why but it happend about half an hour after I read your message in my box.
I am not quite sure... is that time good or those resulst in the tables are just old and it is nothing special??

[Lance]

.
looks good to me.
but where is your racetime?
.

[QOORA]

My race time?? I don't know:) I just wanted to go under 18 seconds this time so I didn't even pay attention to the race time. I just go the first lap to get the best result and if it is bad after the first lap I just restart the trial and go again. I'll try to work on the race times as soon as I beat Al in Porto Cora lap times... I mean... if that's possible:P

[Lance]

.
the first lap is usually not the fastest lap unless one is using the cheat of running back along the track before crossing the start line and taking a run up to get a moving start instead of a stationary start. a time achieved in that way does not count. if you are going for the fastest possible lap, you should be running the full race. who knows but what you may already be able to beat Al! ;)
.

[QOORA]

I know that the first lap is not the fastest one but I don't have much time to play the game so I don't even bother to go full races:) What is more, I don't use any cheats. I start normally with getting the boost by keeping my engine working so that the start is abrupt and sharp. That's all. I hope it is not considered as cheating? I guess I will try to follow your advice and go full races tomorrow because I really want to be first on Porto Cora.... and Hi-Fumii:P But I wonder if I can achieve it with the first lap... which, as U say, is not the fastest:)

[G'Kyl]

Hmmm, If all you do is start lap after lap then flying full races is the faster way to do so anyway, isn`t it? ;-) It should also help you get more consistent.
I even try not to restart races after hitting a wall or doing any other mistake, since this gives me a better overall feel of consistent flight, which in turn is good to get closer to the "zone" (funny that; I never even played zone mode *g*). Anyway, this is clearly nothing more than a personal preference.

Oh, and congrats to your great time, QOORA! :)

Ben

[Shem]

I do the same G'Kyl, I mean to restart every race after a close encounter with a wall (and I don't mean wall scraping). It's kinda annoying IMO....but it pays back with 5PL's in a row if everything goes well. But still, the most frustrating thing about flying Icaras (to me of course) is when I fly perfectly, fast, and all of sudden there is no acceleration anymore, though I kick her in the guts with full power. Of course there still is some hyperthrust to speed the machine up, but the shields do not last forever. Hopefully these kind of situations happen not as often as I'd fly in venom or vector (greetings to all who acctually beat the records in lower classes than phantom! :) ). Well anyways, congrats with your new record, and now, since you beat me, you can count on some real competition (i ain't gonna give up so easy). Cheers!

[infoxicated]

Incidentally, a single lap time is invalid if the rest of the race has not been completed.

i.e. you get a good time using up all your thrust on lap two, but get eliminated on lap three because you had no shields left, then your fastest time is invalid.

A time is only valid if it's viewable through the records option from the in game menu.

if you got eliminated then it wont be there...

[G'Kyl]

Right, that`s the other reason I don`t give up after one bad lap. I`d rather save one turbo and attempt a single lap instead of a race record. Lap records hardly happen when you`re on the two-turbos-a-lap strategy with the quirex, mind you. :) So there`s a chance to try beating new records on both fields.

Ben

[QOORA]

Yeah, I am aware of what U mean. Finishing the race after getting a good first lap is not a problem though. It is just the case that other laps have pathetic times around 30seconds or something like that coz I use the brakes and fly like a lady untill I get to the pit stop so as not to destroy the ship:) I don't simply care about times of other laps when I race for one best lap only. I will try to have all laps with time around 20 - 25 seconds when I will race for the whole race time:)
Oh, and one more thing. U don't need to use up Ur entire shield to get under 18. At least that's what I've noticed:)
As for trying to get the best lap time on the first lap or on any other I guess it is a matter of preference. If U try do it on Ur first lap it is much more difficult but still it can be done:)

PS At the moment I have much too work on my hands but next week when I have some more free time I will try to beat the first time in the table:) Geez, that's gonna be tough:P

[G'Kyl]

QOORA, you race for fast lap times and ignore race time completely, I like that! :-) Even though I developed a slight interest in decent race times due to the competition over the 2097 records, I also tend to look for THE perfect lap, not so much for the perfect race.

By the way, I just realized that we're on the WO3SE-board here, so I just wanted to add that I am of course aware of the fact "that two turbos per lap strategy" only applies to pre WO3-Wipeouts. :)

Ben

[QOORA]

Thats's true G'Kyl - I race for fast lap times and ignore race time completely at the moment:) When I know that I screwed up my first lap why should I continue the race?? It is nonsensical, because at the moment I only aim ta THE fastest lap and not THE race time. I guess we both think alike as far as THE best laps ar concerned:)
As soon as I manage to get the first time on Porto Cora (but will I????:) I will try to get the best time for the whole race:) As simple as that:)
Oh, and I also want 2 achieve something on Hi - Fumii since I love that course:)

[G'Kyl]

My brother in mind! *g* Everybody here seems to aim race records (which isn't a bad thing, of course! :) ), so I find your attitude rather refreshing.
Anyway, maybe you should still try completing the race for all the reasons mentioned above. After all, having a flying start into a new lap certainly WILL make you gain faster times!

EDIT: Forgot something.


A time is only valid if it's viewable through the records option from the in game menu.

I do not mean to argue about this rule, Infox, but wouldn't it be OK to call any lap time achieved in the game, whether it appears in the record tables or not, valid? I mean, anyone who is able to do good enough on one lap to make it into the WOZ tables can surely finish the race without hitting a wall or badly bottoming out during the rest of the race (by keeping both shoulder buttons pressed if neccessary).

Ben

[xEik]

That's why I give no value to lap records. I've tried once or twice wasting races for the good of a single lap. Lap times can be lowered this way but I can't get to enjoy it.

Race times are the ones to be used for comparing pilots, specially with the drain shield turbo system in 3. In 2097, thogh, it is more even. You cannot prepare for a single lap (only maybe save a turbo until the start line in hope of getting more turbos during that same lap and using them).

[QOORA]

I do complete races if I have a very good first lap but it is just that I don't pay attention to the times of these laps:) As for Ur suggestions I think I'll try to fight for better time with the flying start but first I really want to prove myself that it's possible to get better time then 17.92 with a stationary start:) If I manage to do it... then I'll go in for a flying start:)

EDIT
Xeik - I don't agree wiv U... at least not completely:) Yes, race times are good and important but they are easier to achieve than one great lap. Why? It's simply because even U have only one lap wiv a little bit worse time U can still make up 4 it in the next lap. That's especially true 4 W3 SE. Yes, getting best race times takes more time than getting THE lap but is easier IMHO. At least I find it easier.
As for one great lap U need 2 put all effort and skill so that all elements of the lap go together and give U a satisfactory result. U screw up one moment and U can say Ur record good bye. That's frustrating. To get a fantastic lap time U must aim at perfection and to get a fantastic race time U need to aim at luck and consistency. I opt for perfection and that's why 4 the time being it is lap times that I am concerned wiv:)

[G'Kyl]

That's why I give no value to lap records. I've tried once or twice wasting races for the good of a single lap. Lap times can be lowered this way but I can't get to enjoy it.

Take Senna for example. He didn't have such a great quota of races driven/races won like Schumacher or others, yet he, being able to pack up all his skills for this one decisive lap, is still being remembered as the best qualifying driver ever. It's kinda like that for me. :)

Ben

[QOORA]

Xeik - read my edit in the above post:)

G'Kyl... we really are brothers in mind :D I go along with Ur vein of thinking:)

[xEik]

I prefer pilots like Mick Doohan. He would sometimes make a crap start. Pass in number 12 position after first lap. But he would show his superiority lap after lap and in less than ten laps you had him bitting the tyre of the pilot in first position. After twenty laps he was in first place having left the second pilot far behind eating dust.

I know I've cheered Alex Crivillé (Catalan pilot) when they were rivals. But I also know that Mick was the best of those two.

[G'Kyl]

Actually, watching real racing I also prefer the kind of pilots who are able to steadily improve on their position during the race, if only for the fact that these pilots usually deliver the most exciting of races. When playing Wipeout things tend to be a little different for me, though. Just don't ask me why this is so. ;)

Ben

[Lance]

.
QOORA, you cannot make up for a mistake in one lap by doing better on the next lap; to achieve a RACE record requires your absolute best on EVery lap, not just one. if i make one mistake in a five lap Phantom class race, just one mistake, it costs me the race record. you try beating Arnaud or Al or Mano by making up for a mistake on one lap by doing better on the others. not going to happen. you must do the best you are capable of on every lap to equal or exceed their achievements. this is why most people regard overall race times as more important than lap times even though lap records often come in the same race as overall race records.

---------

as far as the validity of a time achieved by running only the first lap goes, it doesn't have any. the game is not structured that way and it will not even record the time. you cannot assume that you would be able to finish the race; you must finish the race to have a valid time. Wipeout is not a hillclimb nor a drag race. for those types of competition, it would be entirely valid to concentrate on that one completion of the track, but in Wipeout and all other circuit racing, there is more than one lap to be done. concentrating on only the first of the laps is just practice at getting a good start for the race; if you can do it during a race it counts, but if you can't, it doesn't. it may and probably is a lot of fun, but an incomplete race, which is what a first lap is, should not be entered as a record because it is not recorded in the game and there are no stats kept for it in the records tables, either.

[QOORA]

Wait a sec Lance! Now U r being unfair towards me! And I don't know why.

First thing off. U CAN make up for a mistake in other laps. By mistake I don't mean hitting a wall head - on but, for example, failing to land in a given place after a big jump. This may take, for instance, one second from my overall race time but if I do good in the next lap I can make the loss smaller by , say, half a second. And it does count at the end of the race. However, I haven't yet tried to go for extremely good race times because a) I have had W3 SE for 4 or 5 days now, b) I am concentrating now on beating Al's time on Porto Cora.

Ok, and now as for the second part of Ur answer.
Why, when I got my time under 18 seconds, U r unfair towards me?? Look, I am a newbe here and before I started struggling for the record I asked about the rules!! It is in the topic SOME NEW RECORDS. And it was YOU who answered me. U wrote that everything is explained on the top page and gave some information as well. I read and followed all of the posted rules and there was NOTHING about finishing full races when fighting for the best lap time. What is more, U said, that U trust ppl from that forum and I don't need to give U any physical evidence of my result. And I didn't. But I will tell U how it looked like. I just borrowed the game from my friend along wiv his memory card. I don't have PSX and memory card for PSX so I had to use his but he asked me not to save anything on his memory card. That is why I wasn't even able to save the record and I won't save any future records before I give the game back to him. And what?? Does that mean that if I don't record the results they are invalid?? They are non - existant and what I saw is the Matrix, right?? Forgive me, but that is just plain stupid. I will even give U an example to prove my point! Imagine I beat the record lap time at one moment when everybody was able to see at but just after a second the ceiling cracked and fell down killing me and destroyung the console on the spot;) What then? After all, it is not the file on the memory card that counts but the fair achievement.
Besides, there are different tables for Race Times and Laps!!! Geez, my interpretation of that is obvious: Lap Times - for the fastets laps achieved in any way and without cheating, Race Times - for the fastest laps achieved in any way and without cheating.
And mind U, getting under 18 in the first lap is more difficult than in the second or third lap.

Oh, and one more thing. I was almost sure that some ppl will try to question my record and although I couldn't save the record onto my memory card I had my PC and TV linked so I grabbed the screens with the results and records. So if need be, I can provide U with them.
Therefore I think that my time, on which I am going to improve tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, is valid. Next time maybe U should make Ur rules more straightforward.

[G'Kyl]

Easy, QOORA, Lance never meant to be rude but to explain his point of view on making up for mistakes and the validity issue.
About the latter: The thing is I agree with you, Lance. :) I would never add a record done in an incomplete race. I was just thinking that because one can be certain a good pilot will always be able to finsih a race, even this it means going as slow as the counter allows in order to not damage the shield, the record for a specific lap could be considered as reflecting in fact his or her abilities. Anyway, it was just a thought, no more.

Ben

[QOORA]

Sorry, G'Kyl, I hope I didn't offend Lance. It was not my intention but I got a bit nervous after reading his post. If I offended anyone - sorry, forgive me.

"I would never add a record done in an incomplete race. I was just thinking that because one can be certain a good pilot will always be able to finsih a race, even this it means going as slow as the counter allows in order to not damage the shield, the record for a specific lap could be considered as reflecting in fact his or her abilities. "

I agree wiv U here, but as I can't save my results I don't care about my overall race anyways?? Once again I'd like to emphasize that it is THE FASTEST LAP that counts noe for me. I will think about races later on:)

[xEik]

A time is only valid if it's viewable through the records option from the in game menu.

This involves no memory card recording. Just finishing your laps. It's that easy. You note your records from the record option before shutting down the PSX and everything is OK and everyone is happy.

[QOORA]

"This involves no memory card recording. Just finishing your laps. It's that easy. You note your records from the record option before shutting down the PSX and everything is Ok and everyone is happy."

And this gives me what?? One moment of the result on the screen which disappears as soon as I reset or switch off the console. Great.
I don't care about other laps when I am struggling for THE one (lap). So why should I finish them?? I don't have time for that at the moment. Not to mention a logical reason.

[Lance]

.
why would it be unfair? no one else is allowed to do it that way either.

infoxicated created this site and the records tables and the rules for all of it.
here on this thread for the third time, infox's rule:
''A time is only valid if it's viewable through the records option from the in game menu''.
this is why when you posted the lap time without a racetime, my first response was to ask where that racetime was. the need to complete the race in order to have a valid time just seemed so obvious that i guess no-one thought it needed stating. apparently it did. i'm sorry if you were mislead into thinking that your method of getting a fastest time was valid when it wasn't. i encourage you to achieve that same time or an even better one through actually completing the race, especially since the fastest possible legal laptime in Phantom class is always going to come after the first lap, which will be the slowest if you're driving with equal execution of your skills in all of them. to make such a time as you have made shows that you obviously have the skills to do well in the game.

if you want a rule change, you must change the mind of the rulemaker. my comments merely went beyond seconding the rule and explained why i think it's a good one.

you may not have a lot of time for racing, but this does not mean that it's necessary to beat a world record in the first week

[if a racer and his game console fall in a forest, does anyone hear?]

------------------

i repeat, you can not ''make up for'' a mistake in one lap by doing better in another. there is a minimum time it takes to race around a course; every mistake adds to that time and prevents you from achieving a minimum. an absolutely perfect 4 laps following an imperfect one will not make up for, will not cancel or compensate for the time added to the minimum by a mistake. mistakes in a race cannot be undone. the best that you can do after making a mistake is to not make another.

[xEik]

We don't care if you care about race records (you don't even have to post them if you don't want to). The only thing we ask of you is that the lap records you post have existed in the record option at some moment (we don't even ask that you look at them there, noting them from the screen that appears after finishing the race is OK).

Posting a lap time from a race that hasn't been finished is considered unfair.

BTW, you don't need to be so defensive. We like to take things easy in these forums.

[Lance]

.
QOORA said: ''I agree wiv U here, but as I can't save my results I don't care about my overall race anyways??''

then, as you can't save your results why do you care about any of the results? whether they are full race or one lap would make no difference. the reason you care about single lap records has nothing to do with not having your own console and memory card, does it?
.

[QOORA]

Ok, Lance. This is Ur forum and U can do whatever U want here, however, I think that invalidating my time would be extremely unfair. I followed the rules U gave me and I got that time in a FAIR way.
From what U all write finishing the race after getting the best single lap is just art for art's sake... nothing more. Does my final resul in the race influence my fastest lap somehow?? NO! So what is it for?? Sorry, but I find it nonsensical.
Ok, anyways. Why isn't that "rule" posted along with the rules for records and result tables?? It isn't there so how shoul I know something like that exists here.

"then, as you can't save your results why do you care about any of the results"

Because I know I can prove something to myself. And whether it is in the game menu is of secondary importance. I think it's self-explanatory.

PS "you may not have a lot of time for racing, but this does not mean that it's necessary to beat a world record in the first week"
Yeah, but if I can do it and I am close to it, why shouldn't I?

[G'Kyl]

Hm, I think the subject is a different one than you think, QOORA. :) What Lance and xEik are saying is just that you should only enter records that were done during a full (read: completed) race. This is probably due to the fact that a player might do something (such as using up all shield energy) in this lap after which he wouldn`t be able to finsih the race anyway. You should, however, always be able to finish a race, since this is one condition which determines the basics of any Wipeout game. And only records done according to these basic rules are considered valid.
The record doesn`t have to be saved on a mem card, only be viewable on the record tables, since race and lap times only appear there when the race in which these times have been achieved were completed.

Someone please correct me if I`m wrong, but that`s how I understood the matter. :)

Ben

[QOORA]

Ok, even if it is so as U say G'Kyl the case is that the nature of Time Trial is fightin for the best possible time and that's all. Mind U, the name of the mode is not "Time Trial Remember To Finish Your Race";P
Besides, finishing the race even if U use up Ur entire shield energy is still a piece of cake. After all U don't have to go fast, U can fly very slowly so as not to hit the wall. That's all. I just don't do it as I consider it a waste of time when my main goal is the fastest lap time.
Anyways, I didn't use up my whole shield when I got my precious 17.92 and I simply stopped so that I could grab the picture on my PC. I didn't even think about finishing the race afterwards because there is NOT such a rule posted in the record page. I simply considered it as a waste of time. I just saw that I got under 18 and that was it. For me getting the fastest lap is getting the fastest lap. As simple as that.
But sure, U can do whatever U want with that, it is Ur forum.

[G'Kyl]

Mind U, the name of the mode is not "Time Trial Remember To Finish Your Race";P
Besides, finishing the race even if U use up Ur entire shield energy is still a piece of cake.

So I assume. But I`m afraid it`s as simple as that: The first issue has to be handled in accordance to the site rules, and the latter was already discussed with and turned down by Lance. :))

Ben

[QOORA]

"The sites rules" which actually are not there.... Disinformation, it is called.
Ehhh, never mind. I don't want 2 argue with all of U guys. It is no use.
I described the way in which I got my time and I have a valid proof for it. Whatever U do with that is Ur bussiness. I can't change the way it is and I am not going to make U see my reason any more either. I got to know Ur rule too late but it is not my fault. Ehhh, and I don't blame U. Just forget it.

[Lance]

.
QOORA said:''. I didn't even think about finishing the race afterwards because there is NOT such a rule posted in the record page''
one more time: lance said: ''the need to complete the race in order to have a valid time just seemed so obvious that i guess no-one thought it needed stating.''

concerning possible disallowing of a time, lance said: ''why would it be unfair? no one else is allowed to do it that way either.''
no matter when a non-valid time is posted, it's still a non-valid time. how can we make an exception for you and you alone, letting your time stand in the midst those times that followed the unstated but generally understood rule? are we supposed to send an e-mail to all the other people in that records table and say ''we're sorry, but actually your time has been beaten by a method that you all thought was illegal, so now your time doesn't really count any more.''? now that would be unfair.

the first question i asked you after looking at your new time posted in the records tables was 'where is your racetime'? why do you think i asked that? i assumed as a matter of course that any laptime would be part of a race; that's just the way the tables are done. it was not until some posts later that you let us know that there wasn't any racetime. we're not making up some arbitrary new rule to hurt you; the presence of a complete race was always assumed. as far as i know, this is the first time this particular ''can of worms'' has ever been opened. even though it had never been thought necessary to have such a rule stated, clearly the point should be addressed by now clearly stating on the rules page that any lap record must be part of a complete race. even in real life racing, competitors are not allowed to start the race multiple times, do one really hot lap, and claim that they now hold the official lap record. even though this rule was not stated, it would be grossly unfair to all the other people who posted times that were part of a complete race to allow a time that wasn't achieved in the same way. how can we fairly make an exception in this just for you?

we are not trying to hurt you; this is simply a situation that has not arisen before, and we're just trying to deal with it in as fair a way as possible. it is not your fault that you made an incorrect assumption about what is 'legal', but we still need to keep to the spirit of the competition. i'm sorry if you feel singled out for some sort of punishment. that isn't what we're trying to do. i like you. i like your enthusiasm and enjoyment of the game. i even appreciate your passionate defense of your position. in your shoes, i would probably defend my time, too. :)
.

[QOORA]

I said clearly that U should do whatever U want with that result. And I didn't ask U even once 2 make an exception for me.
BTW, If it wasn't a stated rule and "the presence of a complete race was always assumed", Your "as far as i know" may not be enough now and maybe U should e-mail all the ppl and ask them if they really followed it?? Just to be on the safe side;)

And one more thing to finish off...
Can't U see that this rule is a completely ARTIFICIAL CREATION?? What meaning does that race time have in beating lap records if U can later on fly extremely slowly just to get to the end finally without any risk?? Just tell me what is the significance of it?? It is just as if that race time was non existent and the person will forget about that pathetic race time in the menu anyways paying attention to the lap time only. For me it is just uncalled for beaurocracy. I just expressed my opinion but U don't have to agree with it. No problem.
This is just my suggestion and you can just skip it.
Greetings

Be sure, however, to post that "rule" very clearly so that other ppl are not mislead as I was. I hope this will prevent other misunderstandings of that sort in the future.

PS Don't worry. I don't think U wanted to hurt me. I just felt it was unfair and I wanted to defend my point of view. That's all. No offense:)

[Lance]

way and waxes absurdly philosophical:

.
all rules are arbitrary; all adminstrators of rules are bureaucrats or agents of the bureaucrats. the thing that matters is the goal of the rules and the bureaucrats. in this case, it is just to ensure a ''level playing field'', that everybody plays with the same conditions so that the results are proportionate to each other, so that they can mean whatever it is that they're supposed to mean. ultimately none of them mean anything; they only have meaning for that brief time of the lives of that small part of the total population of the universe who care about them, those who derive some pride or pleasure, some shame or sorrow related to the results' supposed importance. if we look at it from this perhaps too objective point of view, then nothing would have any importance at all, but there would be no point in life if we had no passion about anything. we should be passionate, but we should never let it make us forget altogether that it is only single individuals who define importance and they only define it for themselves. everyone has their own unique definition. we should never be surprised if no one else shares our exact vision.
.

[call me crazy, but i love Robert Smith's voice]
.

[QOORA]

Nice, nice, very nice indeed.. and now, please, write something to the topic, all rite? :wink:

[Lance]

.
it is precisely to the topic.
even the robert smith part
.

[QOORA]

Oh, I see now. So I'll go for a dictionary and a book on contemporary philosophy and I'll read it again. If it still doesn't help I'll watch www.badgerbadgerbadger.com and go to sleep. Yeah, it sounds stupid to me either.

[QOORA]

Ok, ppl... I have just slept over it, I calmed down a bit and starting from now on I am going to devote one or even two hours for my Porto Kora races so that I can get under 18 again and then go to the end of the race (which I still find extremely unfair and illogical :D " But first I am going to go and eat some brekfast :lol: If I don't manage to do it in these two hours I will try again and give one or two hours for it in the evening after my classes are finished. I still think that saying that my time is invalid is not right but to conform with Ur "rules" I won't even go to a party tonight and I will repeat my result whatsoever.... You can blame Yourselves that tonight probably I won't meet any nice chicks because I will have to spend that evening in front of my TV. Thanks a lot guys of little faith :wink:
Oh, and one more thing, if I don't manage to get such a good result again (U know, different things may happen :cry: ) I think I will either hang myself or raze that forum to the ground... or both :wink: And U'll have to pay for my Dual Shock2 as it is extremely deteriorated and I feel that with two or three more races it will go apart :wink:
So U'd better wish me luck as it is all Ur fault :wink:
Ok, when all is said and done I am going to eat now and then play some more on Porto Kora...

EDIT... Damn:( 18.10 on the first lap:( It was a bad landing after the jump:( restart:(

EDIT2 18.60 on the first lap, 18.04 on the second lap and... a crash on the third one:( DS2 suxxx and that crash doesn't prove Ur point, Lance 8)
EDIT 3 :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: No result under 18 in the morning:( Now I need to go to my classes so it is the evening that is left now for me. So no chicks today:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:( Just Porto Kora :evil:

[Lance]

.
if you ever have enough excess cash beyond your expenses for classes, food, housing, etc etc, get a neGcon controller. they are so much better than everything else that i swear you'll never go back to on/off buttons again
.

[G'Kyl]

I strongly second that! Even if you set the maximum twist to a minimum (which is what I do in Rapier and Phantom classes), playability will at least be twice as good as with the D-Pad.

[QOORA]

Well, it so happens that at the moment I have some excess money and after reading the topic on controllers and Ur opinions I am seriously considering buying NegCon. The problem is I will probably find it extremely difficult to find it in my country.
Do U know where I can buy it and how much it costs??
I am actually satisfied with my DS2 which is a little bit deteriorated at the moment (thx 2 Tekken:) and it only makes me mad at the very sharp turns where much precision and accuracy is needed when I am taking them at high speed. I also remember that I wanted to eat that piece of crap when I was playing WF long time ago in the Zone Mode. Up to 60-70th zone it was fine but then I found it extremely difficult to control the ship with the D-Pad:( So I quit WF:)

Ok, I have to go to sleep coz today was not my day:( I wasn't able 2 get under 18. The fastest lap in the race was 18.04:( I don't know... maybe tomorrow will be a better day:(

[Asayyeah]

:o how can i play a little bit when i have time to do it if i spend all that time reading all the new posts from WZ forum ( especially this new topic :wink: ) :lol:

It seems there was a tough explanation about the rules of the Wipeout tables.
My opinion is it's very important to follow the rules 'cause it will be a totall anarchy otherwise.
I PM Qoora last evening to tell him not arguing with Lance or other people ( life is so short :( ), i advice him to finish just one race in phanthom and put his time into the tables, it seems at this time he doesn't do it. :-?
i ve tried to explain him it's not really important to put a ' crap ' race time into the tables , even he has done a very good lap time with DPad , he could do beat it easily with practise. ( to proove him my aim , i just switch my ps on for a unique attempt in TT, result i am 12th for the best lap & 12th too for the race time : i don't care about those times ive done 'cause i know deeply inside me i could do better when i ll have more time in front of me ( for instance saturday night).

Just a last precision : it's really harder to make our best on a race time rather than a lap time, i am saying this despite of the fact i prefer lap to race ( not really great difference between the two) but to proove your consistency on a awesome race time means you are doing really incredible laps time into it

However that to say i am entering this week-end a new challenge in TT SE PK ( of course for the lap but also for the race time :wink: )

[Lance]

.
Arnaud, i think you are trying to rule the world [of Wipeout racing, anyway]; you are a true competitor, that is a certainty. i know from personal experience [on TR TT Venom] that you cannot abide a time faster than yours. :) Bon chance, my friend
.

[lunar]

Though I`ve always followed Lance`s position in this debate, I`d say Qoora`s position is the most rational.

I have never entered a lap time in which I didn`t finish the race, as it couldn`t be saved to the memory card and therefore couldn`t be verified. this is the only reason I wouldn`t count these times. But if we don`t require memory card verification, then what`s the point of finishing the race for the sake of it? There is no causal relationship between finishing the race (or not) and achieving the lap time.

We all take constant restarts (something F1 drivers can`t do) in order to get good times. What difference does it make if a pilot never does more than two laps? He has still flown the fast lap fairly, demonstrated his skill, and used no performance enhancing cheat. If I fly a whole race and can`t beat Qoora`s 17.92, then I`m perfectly happy to say he`s better at doing one flying lap on that track/class than I am..... because its obviously true.

There are many ways of achieving a good phantom lap.... if you screw up lap two you could fill up with juice at the end of it, take it easy on lap 3, then hammer lap 4 with a good run up to the start. This would be a valid strategy too, allowed by the rules as stated, but certainly is not lifelike racing. Qoora`s method is just the same as this, only without the boring third lap. (I hope you`re still following me here :wink: )

Lap times can be a complicated and sometimes chancy beast, that`s the nature of them, and that`s why I prefer race times as a challenge. If we do not require memory card saves for verification, pilots should provide an alternative, but I really can`t see why it should be necessary to finish the race if another form of verification from memory card data is accepted and offered. Of course I don`t make the rules, but I think Qoora`s time should be allowed to stand, as the rules at the time he made his 17.92 run did not prohibit his actions.



On the other hand, I think there should be memory card verification for all record times, with very few exceptions, but that`s another story and no-one will agree with me. :wink: :D

[Task]

It's amazing how so many people can miss the point so entirely.

The ENTIRE point of the record tables is to record the best times we can manage and see how we compare to others.

What say someone says "are you sure about that one?", what do you do? Dig up the napkin you wrote those times on while you were at a friends place? Hell, no. You turn on the Playstation, put in the MEMORY CARD, and load up Wipout Whatever.

The memory card remembers for you. All possibility for uncertainty is dispelled in entirety because the numbers are stored there on the memory card.

That's why you have to complete the race, so that you can look at the saved records later. You'll never doubt what your best is because it's inscribed in solid-state RAM chips.

[lunar]

If memory card verification is insisted upon I would agree with you, and I would not accept Qoora`s time.

If it is not insisted on, which seems to be the case, I see no purpose in finishing the race and I would accept Qoora`s time.

that seems to me to be the crux of the matter. there`s no point finishing the race other than to record the time onto the memory card.

[G'Kyl]

But there is, at least as far as I can see, a point in having to finish the race as someone MIGHT, in theory, be able to do a fantastic first lap and then not make it through the second lap in order to recharge his shields. I do, however, agree with the opinion that this is highly unlikely and so think QOORA`s time should be considered valid.
Yet there is another side to this argument, which simply goes: In order to keep most of the people satisfied we need to stick to the rules the record tables are based on. And since I do not believe finishing a race after a good lap should be a problem, than there should be... no problem. :) Except of course there were a majority of people asking for a change of this rule. Yes, it may cost QOORA more time that way, but that should be a small enough price to pay.

Taks: QOORA isunable to save his records, as he mentioned before. So should he not be allowed to enter the tables just for that? After all, there is no method whatsoever to check the memory card savings from all piolts on this site, so this shouldn`t really be a problem after all. Also, I always had the strong feeling that we can indeed rely on the honesty of every pilot around here.

Ben

[Shem]

My opinion :
It's all about racing. It is simple as that. The more we all try to clarify the unwritten law's of record tables the more we sink into deep s***. To race is to start from a starting line (no turning around to gain distance, hence - speed), go forward, keep to a racing line, finish the race. What is the problem then?
The usage of hyperthrust? It is a matter of how you look at it.. If sb races through only ONE lap, then it is more of a drag lap than a regular race. Maybe we should create a record table for those who rather drag lap than to fly as everyone else on the record tables?
The other problem - the skills. Race time shows the skills of a pilot. It shows that good pilots can make 5PL with no sweat, and the longer they stick to their best racing line, improving their times from one lap to another, the more they proove their skills.
And I really do not belive someone has no time to finish the race. If they have no time, create a "weekend warrior" racing table for them. Ppl here spend a lot of time racing, and to catch up with them is to race as much.

[QOORA]

Hi again. I can see that finally another rational person has appeared who see my way of reasoning. Thx for support Lunar. On the other hand, as Assayeah has implied, let's stop arguing.
I have my own opinion and I think I am right. I think that the best thing in the world are rules becuase u always know what to do and noone can say u r doing something in a wrong way. In the case of my result there some problems with those rules which actually were not stated, although they should've been.
But when I read opinions such as Shem's I don't really know why there is the distinction between Race Times records and Lap Records. Geeez, I think that in Lap competition U do all that is allowed only to achieve one absolutely astonishing lap! I don't have to care about the whole race if the memory card verification is not required. What U r saying Shem is illogical because some of the ppl said before that U may well go as slow as u want in the rest of the laps just to get to the finish line and save ur best lap. This is called, as I said before, art for art's sake and it is nonsensical. And when I want to finish the race and get a good time then I can change my strategy and go for as good Race Time as possible.
Anyways, I would like that the rules be stated clearly and I guess that the best thing would be some verification of the records. But this is just my opinion.
I didn't enter just any race Time as Assayeah suggested because I thought it would be not fair anyways. After all, it would not be the race in which I got my 17.92.

Now I am trying to repeat my success and finish that stupid race which I didn't finish when I first got my result just because I didn't know I had to do it. I just stopped after that lap, switched on my PC and grabbed the screens. The problem is: what if I don't get that result again?? Than I would be punished by those unwritten rules of yours. I gues even the person who has the first time in the table do not get 17.38 every five minutes, right??

Ok, I don't really want to argue anymore. Although I think that Lane and some other people are not right I will try to conform to those "rules" and this time get a good time and finish the race.
Greetings 2 all:)

PS And it really is not my fault Shem that after playing W3 SE for 3 days I managed to pull off that result. And, for Ur information I have already done 4 or 5 PL in a row, but understand one simple thing... in TT fo THE FASTEST LAP I don't have to care for all the laps. I gues this is self - explanatory!

[G'Kyl]

QOORA, just keep trying and put too much pressure on yourself. Naturally, I can only really speak for myself, but when I feel like I HAVE to beat a certain time NOW I am hardly ever successful. Keep racing and you will surely improve soon enough on your own record.

[QOORA]

Maybe U r right. The problem is however, that it is not my copy of the game and I'll have to return it in a week or two. And there are still so many races to go.
Besides I really have little time to play videogames for myself as my job, studies and other obligations take up most of my time:(
Well, we'll see.

[Shem]

I neither want to argue about such a thing, becouse life IS too short, but there's something I want to explain.
Look at the record tables. For anyone who looks at it, Lap Times and Race Times are connected with eachother. When I first looked at it, I thought like "Okay, so the best lap times come from the best race times..". That was my first impression, and I guess it was the same with a majority of others. After all, you had the right to understand it in your own way, but I'm not so sure if other ppl who had flown a whole race for the best laptime (competing on the record tables) would be happy about it. And so they weren't. And they had the right to do so as well.
I'm not angry about the laptime you achieved with your one-lap technique beating me and all that. I just don't know if the laptime records section is the right place to enter your laptime. The main reason for that would be the other ppl who, as I assume, went for the whole race to get the fastest laptime. For me it's not a problem to hit the hyperthrust for the whole one lap, set a new laptime, and bob's ur uncle. But I don't do that. I'm for a flight. It gives me a lot more satisfaction to set a fastest laptime knowing that I achieved it after a 4 lap battle with Icaras. I guess that's what differes us from eachother QOORA.

All in all, there's a new contest in which You can participate. Have a go. I'll just step aside and watch, I'm used to my style of racing. Cheers!

[G'Kyl]

You can still participate in the contest, Shem. :) The rules are "finish the race", so there would be no complaints from the majority of drivers.

QOORA: Do you have no chance of getting a copy of 3SE in Poland? And if so, what about ebay.de or amazon.de? After May 1 shipping shouldn`t be a problem any more. ;)

Ben

[QOORA]

Again, I think U r misunderstanding me, Shem. I hate repeating myself but...
Look, according to your way of thinking EVERYBODY who got his fastest lap time in the first lap should has his result invalidated. This is just plain silly. So why isn't there a table for fastest first lap, second, third and so on... That would be fair... and ridiculous at the same time... This is really getting funny. What if I said " Hey, ppl I got 17.00 flying my ship back to front!" Would u then say "no, no... that is not fair... everybody is flying in a normal way". Knowing Your attitude I really am surprised that u allow for the big jump method which, in my opinion, is not all that fair.
I will once again repeat... it wasn't a problem 4 me to complete the race but I simply didn't know there was a need for doing that. That's why I just stopped to grab the screenshot. I wasn't interested in doing fastest race then and that's the only reason for my stopping. As for my technique I think it is probably not very much different from yours or any other pilot's from that forum. And, as I said before, I didn't even use up whole shield for hyperthrust because, throughout the lap I hyperthrusted only 2 or 3 times (don't remember exactly) and after the first lap I still had enough shield to go on without worries. Geez, I don't even want to mention that getting such result from a stationary start is more difficult than from flying start.

PS Shem, my yet another conclusion after having read your post is that if one gets his fastest lap in a race which is not his fastest, he shouldn't post that result... now think... isn't that totally sick??

EDIT: What contest r u talking about??

As for W3 I checked our internet auction and internet shops and there is only Wipeout Fusion. They didn't even have W3 SE in Media Markt where the assortment is really wide. As for e.bay and so on... I have never bought something via the internet from abroad :oops: :oops: Don't even know how to do it :oops: :oops: But I will think about it :)

[Asayyeah]

I didn't enter just any race Time as Assayeah suggested because I thought it would be not fair anyways. After all, it would not be the race in which I got my 17.92. !
I understood what you mean, QOORA
I have not the time to dig one of an old topic focused on that kind of discussion, but here's the global thought of most of the wipers from that site: it's totally fair to put a best lap time in the tables which isn't realizing in the best race time you put into those tables
So your 17.92 is obviously valid for me. Even you can't realize it into your next entire race, it's valid, totally valid.

For those who are sceptic about that just check tables.
QOORA is not the only one who gets only a lap for a track and not the race or the opposite ( a race time & not a lap).
Wanna 2 big examples?
Me in the SE classic tables with my 15.44 in Talon's reach...i didn't get my race time ....or Al who only gets his race times but not his lap times ( Valpa, phenitia, gare d'europa, odessa, vostok XL TT & SR phanthom)
Could someone blame us for that....i think no, so don't blame QOORA :wink:

I am really sure he will finish a race to proove us he can do an entire race :wink: and when he wants ' and have the time to do it) without the pressure of anybody else.

Hey this community is living due to his old members but also due to his new ones.
So a warm wellcome to you QOORA from me :)

[Shem]

What the...? :-?
First of all, I don't use the big jump at Porto Kora (moving back to the post about it, I was mentioning that the craft behaves differently in W3O and SE, which concerned not hitting the wall after a jump after the ramp at Porto Kora [in SE it's easier to avoid the collision at high speed, which keeps the speed]). Let's set it straight.
Your technique seems to be different from others becouse of all the fuss about it.
What you described as "just plain silly" is silly indeed if you're talking about ppl who have similar lap times in a whole race, but it is not so ridiculous to me if someone had like 17.80 (1), 22.45 (2), 21.67 (3), 19.40 (4) and so on...
Okay, I won't argue about it anymore. U fly the way u like, I will fly the way I used to. The end. 8)

[Roger]

Interesting thread, this. Here's my two cents worth...

As I see it, a race or time trial is a set number of laps around the track. The number of laps varies depending on what class you race in, as does the speed. You either finish the race/TT, or you don't. The sole objective of race/TT is to reach the goal upon completion of the required number of laps!. Anything less is a failure. Race aborted = failure. "Contender eliminated" = failure.

If you finish the run and in the process get a sweet race and/or lap time, good on you, mate - enter it in the tables! But if you can't be bothered to finish, or crash and burn, well that's just too bad :cry: Try again, 'cause you ain't got the right stuff just yet.

I've myself always taken it as a given fact that only results of finished runs are valid for the WipeoutZone tables. I've not read it anywhere, it's just so obvious (up until now, apparently). Go ahead and fly backwards, for all I care, just as long as you finish the race! Then, and ONLY THEN, am I interested in screenshots :o

As for first lap records, i've seen no mention of them being forbidden. I have a couple of them myself, although they are rare. And as for shortcuts, now that's a different story. Flying starts are a no-no in my book.
---

edit: QOORA, you've certainly brought a breath of fresh air into the forum, with your "outside the box" kind of thinking. Hope you get hold of a WO3SE copy of your own!