What would it take to make a NEW Wipeout ? -Estimate from those who know.

[blackwiggle]

This subject has been talked about for ages when there was nothing else to talk about by we long term members.

Now there is a new interest again, both , most importantly from the fans, and secondly from Sony.

If it wasn't for the fans Sony wouldn't have made the Omega Pack, there would be no point if nobody was interested, fact, and if no interest, it equals no $$ for Sony, so it wouldn't have got the go ahead.....well more on that later.

A Remaster is one thing, making a new Wipeout is another.

We have two predicaments happening here, the first is the Wipeout is hugely popular in EU but not in the USA......now why is that?
I don't want to come across as disparaging, but Sony USA 'Marketing' are corporate robots than run purely on figures given to them, there is no free thinking, it's toe the corporate line or you not part of the team...your out.

So how has Sony marketing in the USA tackled the Omega Pack ?

It's done what it has always done, gone back to figures, Historical sales figures for the various wipeout games in the USA.........there is a fatal flaw in doing this, and it has perpetuated for years, and is the reason why wipeout hasn't sold in the USA for years.

Lets have a look at what has happened over the years to Wipeout in the USA over the years.

The last Good sales figures for a wipeout game in the USA were for Wipeout FUSION [Ironically the Orphan of the wipeout series], it was also the last FULL CONSOLE VERSION of a wipeout game, available to be bought as a disc version, seen on a shelf, and bought at a shop.....that was 17 years ago.

The PSP came out, sold reasonably well, and wipeout PURE got a reasonable take up, the DLC for it was free, all was good.....but it wasn't a full console release.....so you lost those that like to play on a big screen.
Ditto Wipeout PULSE.....sales had dropped off by then, PSP's had plateaued sales wise, so the USA decided it wasn't worth bothering releasing the DLC for PULSE....further alienation of the full console version WO players, and now those that like the PSP versions, but denied the DLC on a sales whim.

VITA arrives...Sony thinks, hell we don't have a release title that shows off all the things we want about the VITA....Who do we call?

Those at SL that hadn't yet had their termination notices typed up, and were still considered useful, were quickly given a brief, and in a false sense of confidence, so they built WO 2048 for the VITA.

Another handheld WO, [NO interest for fans of the full console version] ....lacked Racebox = Horrible + had major glitches, and even then you could lose all your game progress...so dire really.

SO...Dah Ta De Dah !!!

The Omega Pack is announced...YES!!!! x 1000 :+ are made ....Finally...are post made at this forum.

I imagine the situation at Sony USA PR marketing was diametrically opposite ..... What's this Omega Pack they want us to sell and promote....I'll look it up in History....OMG it has a horrible failure rate in the USA.....we can't budget for that....we'll just give it token exposure and see how it goes.

Not realizing that there is a frozen zombie army of full console wipeout players that have been waiting for the AWAKEN call to come.....no call, no come.

NOW...if I know this, and SL people knew this, and it's been posted about enought times over the years at this forum.....WHY didn't somebody from Sony XDEV [who overseered the project] GO OVER to the USA, and kick some butt to sell this game.

I've been online on several different occasions, at various time checking on the online rooms open, and when I hit the USA ones....it's dismal.....I wonder why?

From a EX SL person I have been told that he estimates that it would cost Sony at least USA$10 million and take 18 months to make a NEW Wipeout....from the amount of players I see online ATM, a week into a new release, I can't see Sony giving the OK for that.

Sorry, but I'd love to see it otherwise, but I'm a realist .....unless more people are playing this game, no new ones will be made

[dontmindlosing]

Do the buying and playing habits of anyone outside of EU and USA have any impact here? Can't us Canadians, for one, help? ;)

[Hybrid Divide]

I could not agree more with this. If Sony do not promote the games here, they won't sell.

People tend to like the games if they actually see them. But no.

Alas, I've been repeating myself all over the forums here about this lately. :(

[TheFrostE]

Agreed, as much as Wipeout was a big part of my life for a while, it's time to let it go. Give something else the throne (which I think has already been taken imho). It's huge with its community and many of the people here are great but realistically, they are going to milk Omega for all its worth now and it still won't justify a new one for them. It's not what it used to be and a remaster doesn't help it. To be a success again, the only way I see it is if they build one from the ground up again and do more worldwide advertisement. It's tired , and Wipeout is slowing turning into a "die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" situation. Most people here obviously don't want to hear it, and I'm sure fox will come through and laugh at the dooms ayers but it is what it is, it's our opinion, and a fairly realistic one at that.

[blackwiggle]

The other problem that has become a recent phenomenon , and this is not just with the Omega Pack, is that instead of publishers giving a advanced copy of a game to known and respected game reviewer or review magazine / site, they are doing the exact opposite, and refusing to give copies to them, and are instead giving advance copies to YouTube 'influence-rs', who are way less than objective on telling it how it is, and rarely if ever mention anything negative about a game.

I personally never watch any of these so called 'reviews' for that very same reason.....your just asking for repeat 'No Man's Sky' situations, where the whole gaming community is left feeling ripped off, and pissed off at being duped.

[AdHoc]

Agreed, as much as Wipeout was a big part of my life for a while, it's time to let it go. Give something else the throne (which I think has already been taken imho). It's huge with its community and many of the people here are great but realistically, they are going to milk Omega for all its worth now and it still won't justify a new one for them. It's not what it used to be and a remaster doesn't help it. To be a success again, the only way I see it is if they build one from the ground up again and do more worldwide advertisement. It's tired , and Wipeout is slowing turning into a "die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain" situation. Most people here obviously don't want to hear it, and I'm sure fox will come through and laugh at the dooms ayers but it is what it is, it's our opinion, and a fairly realistic one at that.

I think you're being overly negative, not realistic. I have already witnessed an incredible enthusiasm for WOOC from non-fans, just people enjoying a new cool PlayStation title from a franchise they hardly know about. So there is potential for a new game as long as it stays like this. American market or not.

[twenty90seven]

Just out of interest can you choose which servers (ie Europe or US) to search for? Everytime I've gone online there are only one or two races. Im thinking I must be searching under the US servers?

[blackwiggle]

Yes, when online, just press the Square button and you can select which servers you want to visit.

[twenty90seven]

Cheers

[Jonny]

Heck, I wonder what some people expected? It was clear right away that there will hardly be anything new.
But new or not, it brings some more life into this community, gives a chance to people who knew about WipEout and never had the chance to play any of the games and also gets new people into the franchise.
I actually made one of my friends - who usually hates on consoles - deciding to get a PS4 mainly for a game he never knew before.

And the throne is already taken? Lmao

[AdHoc]

The other big difference with the launch of HD/Fury is that social media is much more important today than it was back then. Hopefully it will help to spread awareness.

[blackwiggle]

I'm not sure of the worthiness of social media in this context, as if Media PR dept's within a huge corporation like Sony, deemed that Farcebook & Twatter should be their major way of getting the message out that a new Wipeout had arrived.

It's not only wrong, it's Slack, juvenile and down right irresponsible, and in calling it irresponsible, I mean you were given a job to do and you didn't even come close to doing it, if they were in the Forces, they would be up for a Court Marshall.

That's the problem with corporations running artistic pursuits, which when you brake it down, are what video games are.

There is a basic 'Flawed' disassociation running within the various departments within a huge corporation like Sony, that not only has been the cause of bad decisions, it's been the cause of the once great company going down the toilet.

I could easily make a list, but why depress people further.

The best scenario for any future Wipeout IMHO, and this has been so for some years, but I've just has this opinion reinforced over the last week or so after seeing what's happened with the Omega Pack's lack of promotion, would be if Sony sold the franchise off to somebody else.
Just plain bad government over the franchise for decades really :rolleyes:

[Hybrid Divide]

To be fair, I'm trying to remain positive, and I'm still hopeful that WipEout OC will do decently well here.
I admit being discouraged, but I'm going to try to remain positive, even if I am irked at Sony for their lack of effort here (and I'll keep letting them know about it).

After all, being able to play 2048 on a big screen in 60FPS is a very good thing. :)

[TheFrostE]

All that "new people to the franchise love it,it's a good game, blahblahblah" is all well and good but Sony doesn't care who likes it and who doesnt, they only care about how much money they can make off of it. And from the looks of it, the numbers just aren't there...not anywhere close to where HD and Fury was, and it's silly to think it's just going to magically sky rocket at this point. That's speaking realistically, period.

The online is anything but thriving or growing, the dedicated player base is barely streaming it. (I streamed it for a couple hours the other night at USA peak time, 9pm EST, and I was at the top of the list with 22 viewers max for a while)...and I'm pretty sure that was only because I was breezing through elite campaign with golds ...because let's face it, if you're not that good, it's not very enjoyable to watch.


Also,on the subject of streaming and promoting, if you pilots have a PS4 , then at this point I'd assume you have cable Internet AT LEAST. So unless you're playing wireless, why don't you guys help out and promote more through twitch or youtube live? It takes a couple button presses on your console and you don't need a camera OR a mic (though it does help to hold an audience). At any given time there is easily less than 10 streamers showing it off, sometimes even only one or two people, and it's on a platform where the feature is so goddam easy to use for everyone... All I see here is a bunch of dedicated fans just magically wanting this game to get big ,which was a tall order to begin with, and not doing anything to help . With the exception of the mods and founders of this site who have been promoting like crazy, what have you all been doing for the community aside from posting here or on the FB page to help promote the game to a wider audience. I'll be streaming it again tonight just to see what happens. FrostE out.

[AdHoc]

.....

[Ace3000]

Or, you know, they may just want to see what the game is like before buying it. Ever thought of that?

[Knux_Chaotix]

@AdHoc - Thats a bit much no? Weirdly, my briefe live streaming of Wipeout has caused a few people to go out and buy the game for themselves... Not everyone is too lazy to game. Streaming or Let's Plays are pretty good for promoting. If it wasnt for some lets plays I wouldnt never have thought to try so many amazing games. Streaming / lets plays are fantastic for showcasing the game.

[AdHoc]

.....

[Ace3000]

There is clear evidence of people buying games from seeing streamed footage of them. Twitch is just another media outlet like any other. By using your logic, people watching Let's Plays on YouTube would just not be bothered to buy the game being played, and would just watch the LP. And yet, I and many others have bought new games we would not have found otherwise. Streaming is just the exact same thing, with the exception that it's live.

Just because you dislike the format, it does not give you the right to call people stupid or lazy for liking it.

[AdHoc]

.....

[Rapier Racer]

What's this talk about the game not being promoted? I've seen PlayStation Adverts for Omega Collection pop up all over the net for weeks I think it's has a fair bit of promotion. Most of my friends list consists of Wipeout fans so streaming it wouldn't really do much for the game seeing as most of them to have it already.

Furthermore claiming streaming is cancer is stupid, I doubt any game has attributed massive sales loss due to all those lazy people watching streams.

[Knux_Chaotix]

Also noticed that this thread has gone about a million miles off topic now.

[mdhay]

Could have sworn there was a topic here someplace, and not endless ****-flinging. Welp, suppose it's best to try and bring some order to it.

If you want a new WipEout you need to either:

Get some friends together and make something like SlipStream GX or BallisticNG, like we did;
Convince Sony's bean counters that it's a viable IP so more games get made;
Give Nick Burcombe the money he'd need to buy the IP rights from Sony,


Now, it takes no time to see that not everyone has the chops for game development, nor would we be able to buy it because Sony, for all the neglect we think they've done know how valuable the IP is. It made them. They're not just going to give that away, for any amount. The only option left is to buy more games. If Sony don't do the smart thing and just milk this one, then there's nothing we can really do except either of the other options.

Streaming has become a more popular method of advertising a game because people feel engaged even if they're not actually playing it themselves. Streamers, in my limited experience, tend to be instantly more interesting to people because you get a feel for their personality. I don't really care for streaming myself but someone like Jesse Cox, TotalBiscuit or, heck, Jacksepticeye are inherently more interesting to me than reading some stuff on a screen.

Secondary to this, as an example, Kotaku and Polygon in particular loved telling their audience to simultaneously swivel while begging them for ad clicks. People get sick of that, and while Sony won't care about this at all they also looooooove breaking Non-Disclosure Agreements (edit: review embargoes), which lands said outlets on a blacklist and probably in court. Not because they don't know better, but because being the first to tell everyone about the shiny new thing is more important to them.

Singling those two out isn't the crux of my argument per se, but serves to illustrate that less and less people go to journalistic outlets now. Sometimes it's self-inflicted, sometimes not.

[marcingru]

I understand where some coming from but look at it from other side WO is not heavy on story side and showing how game can be played little over average lvl is not hurting developers and publisher in any way in my opinion.

I had some great streams with ppl who didn't play WO for years/never and decide to buy the game ,2 bought it as i was on stream and other 2 was very heavily interested in buying it

But on topic :
There is PS4 Pro bundle with Horizon Zero Down and Omega Collection :

https://twitter.com/PlayStationUK/status/873457210218618880

Greetz!

[Hellfire_WZ]

One warning - back on topic and drop the sniping at each other, or the topic will be closed

[AdHoc]

Sorry, I got carried away in anger and didn’t think/actually believe what I was saying. I shouldn’t do this and won’t let it happen again. Live streaming is fun and useful in many ways.

We all need to do our best at what we’re good at to help promote the game we so dearly love. For me it will be by engaging people actively on forums and social platforms.

An example with one of the biggest and most active forums in France: http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/JeuxVideo/Consoles/wipeout-omega-collection-sujet_194612_1.htm

[Hybrid Divide]

That's the spirit! :D

And thanks, Hellfire_WZ for getting this thread going back in the right direction!

In happy news, I convinced a friend to buy the Omega Collection yesterday! :D

[Concealed Sequence]

I convinced a couple of people at work on Friday to buy it!

[Jonny]

Apparently Omega hit No1 in the UK charts

[deaddoctor2010]

Ignorging everying except the Topics question.
I'd say it's down to the success of Omega and the demand for another AG-Racing game.
...And perhaps the competion with similar games like Formular Fusion and FAST RMX (the two other AG games I can think of).

WipEout is a game that never gets old IMO.

[OBH]

Another problem to consider in today's age is the audience.

People either only buy titles they know (there's a staggering amount of people who admit to only ever owning Fifa, GTA & Call of Duty games), and they only get interested in new IPs that get bucket loads of coverage, such as Overwatch (unless they completely break the rules and are a stroke of creative brilliance, like Minecraft). Even Battlefield had to wait years and years to get to where it is today. Titanfall 2 for example blew COD out the water completely, in every single way, but it's sales were a complete disaster for the simple reason it didn't have the words 'Call of Duty' in it's title. Racing games in general are also not overly successful any more, in fact they're barely ever made! People can get their speed fix from games like GTA now, and create their own track in the process.

'Pick up and play' is so much more popular than 'steep learning curves, difficult to master'. People want to play games with their friends, not make new ones, and all their friends will unfortunately not be on Wipeout. People also like Clans, eSports, customisation, and character creation, and Wipeout has none of those things.

Despite all that negativity there is certainly a hole in this genre, and Omega has proved that Wipeout is still easily good enough to fill that hole. They just need to make something new, that's truly brilliant, and shove it in everyone's faces long enough that they all go buy it.

[mannjon]

Let me explain some of the reasons why the USA might be part of the problem. And before I get too many evil looks, for those who don't know, I am an American and I take no shame in being honest about what I've seen and heard here. First and foremost games aren't what they used to be, I think there is no argument there. I would even say they are worse in general despite better graphics which half of the gamers around here (in the US) find the most important aspect anyways. Many of the gamers here also are PC gamers who don't even have access to a wo title except the original and xl or emulated versions of anything before HD or Fury: that is problem number one. Wipeout is gorgeous, but Horizon Zero Dawn it is not. That, and it isn't on Steam which is HUGE here.

Modern games are watered down instant gratification machines that excel when the entry difficulty is easy enough that you get a silver trophy just for buying the damn thing. People don't want to get good. They want to just be good from the start without working for it. Wipeout has always had an extremely high entry skill level which is unattractive to the casual gamers that buy things like Mario Kart instead (no hate btw, I own it on the Wii, Wii U, and now the Switch). People like the fact that it takes very little skill to win. If you are no good at MK, just use the op super weapon only "awarded" to those in last place to jump ahead of your friend who has skillfully mastered each turn. Little to no skill is involved. Some of this is a generational thing. Plain and simple, we (as in the older pilots who played the original PS1 games when they first came out), didn't have all the bells and whistles and the game industry was still in infancy. We played what we had and there were fewer choices. You played a game because you liked it. There were no trophies. Games were just harder by comparison and partly because there was less motivating people to play games to completion without trophies to extend a game beyond the normal story. I almost hate to play in a US lobby because I'm afraid people will rage quit on me, or drop out of a lobby. There are very few elite pilots in the US compared to Europe, so being massacred on your first race is enough for a lot of more casual pilots in the US to just give up without ever giving it a chance. They have no motive to actually get good enough to compete. So they go back to their COD's or Battlefields and camp in sniper spots (no offense to you fans out there of either of those games, you aren't who I'm talking about otherwise you wouldn't be reading this post or thread).

The FPS games have absolutely dominated the market on a global scale. This automatically places a title like Wipeout in the niche category and it receives little to no hype at all which drives games (with out hype no one would have bought No Man's Sky here, a game that I love and knew well enough beforehand what I was getting). The major retail stores here don't even stock it. I preordered mine from Gamestop. There were only 3 preorders for the highest volume store in a wealthy area, and one of those was my sister "mannemily". Target doesn't carry it. Walmart doesn't either. Bestbuy doesn't too. And when I went back to Gamestop to preorder the FFXII remaster the next day, my heart sank when I saw a used copy on the wall after just 1 day post-release. They should make a Gold trophy called "Racing With Unicorns" where it pops when you get beat by someone playing in a US region. They should also have a bronze one called "This is Likely The Only Trophy You'll Get" that pops when someone playing in an US region installs it to their PS4. I hate to say it, we suck at AG racing here (I don't and the other few that bought it here don't of course), but there is no hype at all. I suspect that a lot of the US players for HD/Fury only got it after the price drop (once again, no offense to the other pilots this does not apply to). I'm trying to give a general overview of how people perceive it in my area. It might be different in other places in the US. I saw no marketing, no commercials, no hype, and the only preorder bonus we got here was the Van Uber. Please someone send me a steel book, because they don't exist on this continent.
CORRECTION: Best Buy is now carrying it in my area, there were no preorders apparently, and their shipment was delayed (according to a friend that saw it and told me about this), but at least it is getting some coverage now from a Big Box Retailer.

I've spoke with a lot of people my age and they all seem to remember playing Wipeout back in the old days and probably didn't even know it exists still. It is almost like Sony US has a personal vendetta against it, and it received no marketing coverage at all. I work for the government here as a contractor for UAV training programs. If that doesn't fit the bill for target demographic for a game like this, I don't know what does. But all my peers, and literally ALL of them in a large room chocked full of ace developers that write training software for unmanned aircraft with weapons (sound familiar???) obsess about Overwatch's new DLC. They don't care about Wipeout, and despite many of them looking to get that 0.1% new trophy for Overwatch simply because it is a "badge of skill", when asked why they didn't have interest in Wipeout conceded that they "didn't have time for it." Yet I see all of them online playing Overwatch until late at night. I would give anything for just 1 person out of a building of 1,000s of people to say to me "Oh Wipeout Omega? Hell ya! What is your screen name? Have you finished the campaign yet?" That will never happen here. I spread the word when I can. But going up against mannjon for a first race will not be conducive to a good online experience for beginners. I'm not going to sellout by acting like I can't race just for the purpose of trying to get someone interested. That isn't the spirit of Wipeout gameplay, and it never has been.

And... let's be honest. Would you want a watered down new pilot friendly Wipeout game anyway? Based on all the "how do I get to rank 50" posts, it would seem like Wipeout fans don't like grinding for trophies. I sure as Hell don't. For Wipeout to be mainstream here, it would need to be easier. It would need to be easier to the point that us experienced pilots (or new committed pilots) wouldn't even recognize it anymore. The only way this could theoretically work is by having a matchmaking system. But anyone who was playing HD on the PS3 up until launch of Omega knows that just finding an online lobby at all was challenging enough (of course HD is a 9 year old game now).

What we really need here is a competitive scene that puts pro's together at some play-off for money (like they do for Tekken and Street Fighter) or exposure. That would significantly raise people's awareness. Nothing wrong with streaming, but to generate any hype here, some US pilot needs to go become the poster boy (or girl) expert and compete in a massive tournament somewhere, and make it look good too. It really has to be that grandiose, or no one will pay attention. The same people I work with (who are all super amazing people by the way) watch Overwatch matches at work on their second monitor in the background. There is a market for it that just doesn't exist with streaming. I watched all of the Equilibrium Tournament footage a few years ago myself. That wasn't exactly a Youtube sensation.

I just worry that they will make a totally new Wipeout game that never makes it here. That might be the only way to actually move forward to a new game. That same logic applied to the release of Xenoblade, which actually was eventually brought here by enough fans making their voices heard, and we got a Spiritual successor and now a direct sequel, so there is a small ray of hope. It is a sad thing for me to consider but I feel as though I'm in the vast minority here, and to have any hope of a new game, we would need to have that type of support before it ever happens.

[blackwiggle]

Mannjon, a very well considered post IMHO.

The only difference I have with your post is when you said Quote: The FPS games have absolutely dominated the market on a global scale

I disagree with that.
I think it should read, FPS are hugely popular where people have easy access to gun ownership and can fire them off regularly....being the USA.

The only thing one can gather from your post, and many similar to it at various forums is, people in the USA like to shoot things more than anything else, even virtually.....Ummm, sort of glad I live in AUS where we have Gun control.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go at you, just the situation you find yourself living in.....personally, I would feel uncomfortable with the fact that pretty much any of my neighbors would own guns, but that's because where I live we don't allow it.

In your society it a accepted fact, and hence would be in the back of everybody's minds....so, logically, if one was to live is a society that felt like this, being able to handle a weapon well, even virtually, would be considered a welcome talent....hence the propensity for the sales of FPS in the USA over everything else.

I don't know if that is considered 'living in fear'...maybe for those new to the USA that aren't used to living with it.....sorry, this is getting into realms I didn't intend it to.

[mannjon]

This is a little off topic but you know what is odd about it? It isn't even the legit gun owners that are the problem. I know these people well because I've been a freelance creative director and graphics designer for a target company. I meet a lot of hunters and range owners as part of the work. What you say is correct. I would agree that access to guns is probably bending the culture towards more of a gun loving society and thus pushing fps games.

These same types though the vast majority don't own guns, know hown to safely handle them, or have never even held a gun in real life. I've been around it since I was young and I know how to safely handle store and secure them (I'm also an ace shot, but that is far off topic). I bring this up because while I'm a good shot in real life, I'm terrible at fps games. There is no correlation between actual gun owners and fps players and I think that might be because people that have never shot before really want to and they obsess over it and play fps games. They have no idea how to be safe and mature about them in the real world and do incredibly stupid things. Just because ownership is legal does not necessarily mean guns are accessible and they aren't more often than not. But the socially accepted undertone of being a gun owner society leads to people play fps games probably more often than they go out to a range for example. I will point out that being a legal gun owner that does not hunt that designs targets (I mainly have a pistol to test these targets and I get paid to do it, and ironically the range owner closest is an ex Londoner Brit!) that doesn't play fps games puts me in the extreme minority. People act like I'm weird because I don't play Call of Duty. I get odd stares when I try to explain what Wipeout is. Given I live in Alabama, where things are slower paced for everyone that doesn't work for the military. Quite honestly there are a lot of people that may just not know about it because this is a gigantic military town. It is just so ironic that I literally live in the UAV capitol of the world and I seem to be the only Wipeout owner here. So I evangelize when I can but the military families that live here in the garrisons all play military themed fps games. Ironically many pilot UAVs in their daily job, so they play military games to get away from piloting. But this town is far from the norm, and this is one of the wealthiest places in the US.

I will say this though. Guns get more hype here than anywhere else in the world. There are commercials for gun shows and sales all the time. You get used to it and don't even really think about it. In fact I wasn't aware of how much marketing they get until you said something blackwiggle.

It is sad that so many people play fps games here. It really is. They don't even want new ones either. They will play the same cod in a different package every year Activision makes one.

You do get used to it though if you live around it much. There is a city in Texas for example where gun ownership is mandatory (or at least you have to pass a certification, the owning part is not actually mandated, but due to the mandatory training an overwhelming amount of people do). So an estimated 88% of that town owns guns. They have the lowest crime rate in the United States and have not had a firearm related crime in years. Presumably because crooks know better than to take granny's purse knowing she could be packing heat.

So I think it is more of the cultural acceptance that might be the real culprit for the increasingly popular fps genre.

Also the xboxone is here, and all their flagship titles are fps games. I'm a playstation and nintendo guy, and that is not normal. Nearly all of my gamer friends have an xbox and a pc. I think wipeout would have success on the PC, but I don't Sony will ever allow that and a lot of the market share her is xbox. So what can ya do?

[OBH]

It is sad that so many people play fps games here. It really is. They don't even want new ones either. They will play the same cod in a different package every year Activision makes one.
People will buy what they know, regardless of it's quality, because they think it's a safe bet. Cars, food, games, it's all the same.

The CEO of EA has openly admitted that they could release a FIFA game with no changes whatsoever from their previous one, except the year in it's title (and they pretty much have!) and it'll still be their highest selling game of the year. It was the highest selling game in the world last year at over £536,000,000 despite being absolutely dreadful. While PES 2017, despite world wide acclaim that it was not only the best football game of the year, but arguable the best one ever and it still sold over 40x less.

Every review of Omega says something along the lines of "Wipeout has always been the title to show off Sony's new hardware, and it's great to see it again with HDR/4K and the PS4 Pro" so it's not like it's disappeared from consumers memory. Just needs a new game to get the same amount of AAA hype other games get and away you go.

[AdHoc]

mannjon’s idea of a competitive scene makes absolute sense, and one can only dream.

So, how do you go about creating competitions/leagues that get wildly publicised? Which high ranked executives do we need to ring to make it happen? Or is this a community thing that needs to grow bigger with time?

As for the US, I’d like to think WipEout doesn’t need them to survive, but it would also hugely help the series if it were popular there.

[mannjon]

As for the US, I’d like to think WipEout doesn’t need them to survive, but it would also hugely help the series if it were popular there.

I take it you are not a fan of Auricom, lol. Auricom and Feisar are the only two teams that have made an appearance in every title. I find it a little ironic how we (the US) just don't show up to actually race with it. But jokes aside, as far as sales figures go, I guess technically this is true. It is a huge shame it isn't more popular here. I think a lot of it is just due to lack of awareness, because a lot of die hard fans have been around since the beginning, and a lot of them have since moved on after XL and don't even know it is out there. We don't benefit from any hype here at all. There was no mention of it and no advertising in games stores.

I'm still here though, and would surely miss it. I personally feel that if the US were cut out, eventually the rest of you guys and gals would miss us.

I think that gaming as a whole is not as driven by execs anymore as far as competitive tournaments are concerned. This would have to be a grass roots thing. Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of taking a train to Germany, or France, or the UK as a lot of you guys do (Australia also certainly does not benefit from this luxury, and won't until they build a Sol 2 like bridge connecting them to the mainland). But that's just the thing though. There is a more natural competitive state for neighboring countries it would seem. Having access to friends in neighboring countries you can visit almost seems like a necessity for something like this to work.

I have only raced one pilot from Mexico ever. Canadian pilots are starting to show up, but I'd have to take a plane to hang out there. Geographically speaking, this is a problem for North America in general, as I would have to take a plane to race with anyone in the US, and the closest large metro hub is a good 2 hour drive from here. With live streaming I think there is hope something like this could be accomplished, but we would need larger support for it from execs too, because I don't think our US rep here would be cool with an officially sponsored event even if they didn't have to pay for it, and even if they could get cost-free revenue from it.

[AdHoc]

I live in Hobart, Tasmania at the moment. I expected to be one of the only pilots down here. Turns out WOOC was sold out in two stores I visited before finally finding it!

There’s so many people playing the game (probaly casually, but not necessarily) that don’t even know there’s a cult following and active community around the game.

It’s sad that it all boils down to publicity...

[OBH]

So, how do you go about creating competitions/leagues that get wildly publicised? Which high ranked executives do we need to ring to make it happen? Or is this a community thing that needs to grow bigger with time?

A bigger problem than advertising a competition; Wipeout has no simple means of spectators being able to view it.

A lot of eSports games have a spectator mode, or they're a sports game where by it's very nature you're viewing all the action at the same time. WO doesn't have this. The only way to view a race as it happens is via a specific players Twitch / YouTube stream.

[AdHoc]

Yeah... nothing a patch couldn’t solve though, am I right Clever Beans? *wink wink*

[OBH]

Thinking about it, when you disect what actually makes an every-day racing spectator sport, or any kind of sport for that matter, it's actually really interesting to think how it would apply to Wipeout, because WO is so COMPLETELY different.

Take this as an example; as soon as luck becomes a defining factor in the outcome of a competition people would lose interest. It has to always be about raw talent. For this reason you couldn't use all the weapons in competative Wipeout. If 2 players hit the same amount of weapon pads and one guy gets 10 turbos and the other get's 10 shields, it would lose it's credibility as a competition. "Okay, so why not clean races?" I hear you say. Well, personally I don't think that would work either. The danger of a collision is one of the most interesting parts of any motor sport, and as well as that you'd lose a huge, huge part of what makes WO what it is if you were to take that away.

How you'd structure WO as an eSport so it's exciting, competative, and fair all at once wouldn't be easy.

[AdHoc]

We’ve got the solution then. The next WipEout needs to be the CS:GO of the franchise: developed around match making.

[Jonny]

Actually, maybe a rank restriction wouldn't even be that bad, though it is sad to think that such things keep new players away from a game...

[mannjon]

What about level tiers that translate to trophies or competition? Maybe to compete in higher tiers, you have to either: play a dedicated number of hours, win enough races, or rank high enough in speed laps and time trials.

So example time: I buy a new game at the same time a new player does. We meet online. I win a bunch of races, and the new pilot does not. We all start out ranked at 0. But I float up to the next tier, and he stays at the same tier until he progresses far enough along to level up. So when we each log on, the matches we see will match up based on our rank tier. I would also add the option to be able to enable/disable tiered matching. So that way if a new pilot wanted to race against veteran pilots they could, but they would know what they were getting into. Otherwise, they would see only competition in their league.

Titanfall 2 did this to some degree and I was terrible at first. I played other terrible players, so it didn't seem like it was that unfair. It kept me playing without getting too turned off by better players. Now once again, having an option to disable tiered matching allows unskilled pilots to see that there are new plateaus to play on, but they would not feel obligated to do so unless they wanted to.

Another option might also be to have a new "casual" play more that has mechanics that unfairly help out struggling players. Kind of like how Mariokart does with the superweapons. So you could search for casual lobbies if you wanted to play more casual less technical races (maybe put some bumpers on Sol, for example). I think there is a way to extend an olive branch to new pilots while keeping us pro's around too.

Connovar's site already has rankings based on formulas. The same thing could be applied to a game based on lap times and cumulative scores for example. Maybe tier one has a pool of 100% of players in it, the next tier jumps up to the top 75%, 50%, and then 25% and an elite top 10%.

[OBH]

While valid, these points all focus around the player, which isn't the issue. Successful sports are not focused around the player whatsoever, but the spectator. It has to be entertaining to watch.

5 laps on Phantom with all weapons, while is fantastic joyful mayhem to participate in, is a completely unfeasible way of hosting a legitimate competition. As a spectator you'd also miss half the action.

[blackwiggle]

There was a reason Spectator mode was removed.

It could dramatically effect the game in process depending on the region the person was spectating from.

That can't be fixed in software, reason being it's purely a problem related to distance

[OBH]

That's interesting.

Why would it affect WO in such a way but not, say, a strategy game with over 100 spectators?

[Mickelockd]

I feel the same as you... since I was a child this saga was one of the first I had the possibility to play with, even when studio Liverpool shut down I felt like WipEout will never come back, but now I feel like Sony did this in purpose to get money and not giving back the memories, you can see my point giving all those beauty press kits with floating ships... So I agreed with you, It´s not fair but at least those true fans maintain a good community, and yes I´m new to the forum but not at the game, Ive been playing them´ saga since the release of WipEout 3.

- - - Updated - - -

In my fair opinion of FPS shooters that´s nothing new and maybe a marketing way to keep veteran players interested, because nowadays games are becoming more long term so the new players are in a really bad position towards the comunnity who has been there for six months. The same is with WipEout, you have to love the game because the difficulty is so high that you need to be interested by the gameplay to keep up with it.

[mannjon]

Good points Mickelockd. I'd add that a lot of the FPS offer only cosmetic benefits and those unlock based strictly of how much you play and is not skill based. My K/D ratio is dismal, but I've re-genned about 6 times, so I have a ton of the cosmetic upgrades. It isn't a badge of honor. Wipeout however, I use the silver ships because they require a fair degree of skill to unlock, and I'm proud of the accomplishment. I just wish there was an exclusive ship skin set for beating all the HD/Fury campaign races on elite (like a solid white ship for example with the transcendence trophy graphics on the side maybe?).

Point is, if I saw one of those ships, I would hella want one and it would give me a reason to keep getting better. I've had random people message me asking how to get the silver ships (specifically the Fury ones), so people do notice stuff like that. As far as the community goes though, WO fans are a rare breed in general. If you have a new strategy in the major FPS titles, you hide it for the advantage. Here, we make new barrel roll spots publicly known for the greater benefit to anyone that wants to know. I'd argue this is a much more new player approachable community by far.

[WikEv_512]

Well, heres is imho what would make a new WipEout game successful

First of all, english is not my native language, so I apologize if I make any mistakes.

I'm pretty sure we'll have a new wipeout game. Reviews about Omega are excellent, and after the #1 sales in UK, I think Sony got the message. And I'm sure sales were good not only in UK but also in Europe. For the US and Asia, I don't know but as all of you said, marketing was very poor there.

But in the future, WipEout needs to change its formula. I have a huge respect for Psygnosis and Studio Liverpool (after all, they made, not my favorite game but my favorite thing ever) but I think they missed something. WipEout evolved in terms of design, and in terms of graphic and physic. But nothing really changed. The system remains the same: you race to unlock ships and tracks. And that's all. They added several new game modes but it did not change the progression system.

I mean, look at the campaign in Omega... HD/ Fury was from 2008/2009 and at that time, every racing game almost had a real career system. But WipEout HD ? No. All you had to do was to unlock the gold medal for every event in a campaign that did not have any sense... Like in the 90's

WipEout 2048 ? From 2012 and it was exactly the same. I mean come on, can't you bring me something more immersive ?

At that time, when you compared a WipEout with a Dirt game and a F1 game and their career systems... You had one game that worked like in the 90's, that is to say zero immersion, nothing, and other games where you were in the story and had to become a champion, you had interviews with journalists etc... It was immersive. And guess what ? People love immersion. Tha't why they gave 130 millions dollars to Star Citizen. Try it and you'll see that everything in this game is made to make you feel immerged in its universe.

WipEout nowadays is nothing but a 90's game with good graphics. Wip3out brought the cockpit view. It was the first step to become a modern game... They removed it in the next game, which was Fusion !

And Fusion... Let's talk about Fusion. Lot of people here hate it. And I understand why. But I don't hate it. Yes the physic is bad, and the ships' designs... Some were good but some looked childish and would have fit better in F-Zero rather than WipEout.

But if my memories are correct, it was the most successful WipEout in terms of sales.

Why ? Well first of all it was the easiest because of its physic. Everybody could play Fusion and finish the game. Contrary to the older games or the next like Pure etc.

But there is also something else: It was the most immersive WipEout ever (despite the lack of cockpit view)

A really badass animation before the start of each race, the pilots greeting the crowd, animation of the pilot being rescued after the destruction of its ship, the licence you had to obtain to be allowed to use superweapons, 16 ships in race (not just 8...), you could choose your pilot... Like in the 1st WipEout btw, Money system, as in Gran Turismo to upgrade you ship...

Fusion was, and is still, the most modern game of the franchise.

But, everyone complained about Fusion so Studio Liverpool remade a 90's game with Pure. All they had to do was to change the ships and physic to make it more WipEoutish, but no, they just removed everything from Fusion, even the good things.

But hey, we were already in 2005 back then... It was already a time were almost every racing game had a modern progression system, careers, customization etc...

The first career mode of an F1 game ? F1 05 ! Made by Studio Liverpool... Why didn't they take ideas from their F1 games ?!

And I won't talk about Pulse...

WipEout Pure, Pulse, Hd, 2048 and Omega are just for die hard WipEout fans like us. Only beacause we love the designs and the gameplay. But don't expect new players to love it. They bought Omega because it was 2 games (not 3, Fury is just an extension of 4 tracks... Already existing in previous games) for only 35 dollars/euro... And I'm pretty sure lot of them will play it 2 weeks and never touch it again because of how hard it is for them. And I won't talk about online, where newbies are just exterminated by veterans.


So Wipeout has to change. It is supposed to be the simulation of the AG Racing league for Christ's sake ! So be it !

First of all it needs to offer different gameplays for the players. Every racing game does it. You know, you can change the driving setting to make it either realistic or arcade. The last Dirt game even asks you what style of game you want: Gamer or simulation

So WipEout has to do the same: players should be able to choose between arcade physic (like Fusion) or pro physic (like the one we have now or even what we had on the PSone. Don't tell me it's too hard, you have two different physics available in BallisticNG, made by an amateur dev )

This choice of gameplay would allow everyone to enjoy the game.

Then we need a real and logical career mode. For this just look at what Grid games did, and what Dirt and F1 games are doing now.

Create you character, and start from nothing to become the AG champion.

Imagine:

You start the career mode. Feisar hires you as their second pilot. As you become better, you then becomes their first pilot. Because of your skills, Auricom calls you: "hey, you are a promising pilot. We have a practise session next week. Come and if you are good enough we'll hire you for the next season"

You would have an agent, you would have interviews like now in F1 games, you could set up your ship in the paddock with your engineer...

And when I say a logical career, I'm talking about the different game modes. Their should be a reason for each game mode. For example, today in F1 with have qualifying sessions to decide who will start from the 1st position. Why wouldn't we have a Zone session before each race to decide who will take the pole position ? The pilot who achieved the highest score in Zone would be first etc...

That's my ideas for a real career mode. Then we need to add more immersion so: Animations between pilots to show their rivalry, a starting animation on the grid like in Fusion, the same for the rescue ship etc...


We need also more than 8 ships racing... We have 12 teams in HD... they should have 2 ships per team... So it would make 24 ships. I don't think their should be more, but we should have between 16 and 24 ships in race.

Add an upgrading system. Maybe not cosmetic, but at least to improve speed, agility etc...

And to finish the weapon system needs to change.

I have always been okay with it because I'm not an online guy. But with omega I decided to change this.

If you are good enough you can win against elite AI even if you absorb all the weapons. But when against a good player it is no longer the case, you need to take advantage of the weapons... When the good player in question has 5 turbos during the race when all you get are mines or shield, you just want to turn the TV off and leave.

Clean races are not a good solution, because as it was said by some of you, there are no damages in WipEout (BTW, this idea from fusion was also good. We should have a shield and damages. No damages when the shield is full, but when empty... Well, this is where the fun begins... at 750 km/h)

So my idea is: no more random weapons.

At the start of each race you would begin with 10 rockets, 5 missiles, 10 mines, 1 bomb, 1 quake, 1 plasma, 3 turbos and 2 shields.

There still would be weapon pads which would activate the weapons. But you would have the right to chose what weapon you want. And for example once you have used your 3 turbos, you won't be able to have turbos until the end of the race.

So races wouldn't be about luck but strategy.

And I think, here we would have a fair game for competition.

And...This is all I have to say.

Of course don't forget a real cockpit view and the VR (not a VR exclusive game, but it should work with it, especially for the cockpit view) and you'll have a successful WipEout, if not the most successful WipEout ever.

Hope my English wasn't too bad guys :lol

[AdHoc]

The career mode thing has been discussed before, it’s an excellent idea, and you are right in saying that an arcade mode should also remain.

Not sure about the other points, ie. the weapon system you’re suggesting.

Have you noticed how the "exellent reviews" you mention all say that "it’s good old WipEout and that’s exactly what we wanted."

People like improvements, but not change. So yeah, additions should be made, but you can’t change the whole formula.

[OBH]

WikEv has just proved my point. Everyone wants creation and progression. RPG elements in alsmot every game. Though personally I would be gutted if WO ever introduced upgrading ships. The last thing anyone wants is an unfair starting grid.

The only one I whole hertedily agree with is more teams. If there's 12 teams to pick from, every race should have 12 teams in my eyes.

[WikEv_512]

Well, to be honest, I'm also not a big fan of an upgrading system. But in F1 games, you have a R&D section where you can improve your car a little bit. But it is only available in the career mode. Stats remain the same in single race and online modes.

So it would be cool in a career mode to have it. And for example, ships in career could have lower stats than they have in racebox and online, and once you fully upgraded your ship in the career, it has actually the stats it should have...

[mannjon]

WikEv has just proved my point. Everyone wants creation and progression. RPG elements in alsmot every game. Though personally I would be gutted if WO ever introduced upgrading ships. The last thing anyone wants is an unfair starting grid.

The only one I whole hertedily agree with is more teams. If there's 12 teams to pick from, every race should have 12 teams in my eyes.

Maybe not "upgrade" but possible a way to change out specific parts to fully customize ships?

Ok, so as an Icaras pilot, I want more shield energy! But I'm not willing to part with the handling or acceleration. Maybe you could install a "parts list" that limits the Icaras to only green weapons in exchange for 15% more shield energy for example. I'd say that's a fair trade off, because that would encourage green racing, but allow green racing in general online multiplay that isn't just Pure racing (which I love by the way). Minor tweaks, not an overhaul.

Another good example is maybe the Piranha can gain an extra 5%-10% handling in exchange for dropping an autopilot. The idea is to be able to make tweaks to ships by sacrificing weapons or some other aspect to make them slightly better at a cost.

In my opinion, they did a little of this already with Tigron and Van-Uber. Tigron is a beefier Icaras with better handling than a Piranha, but it still has the 100% speed stat bridging the gap between the Icaras and Piranha.

Furthermore, they already do this to some extent via the hidden ship stats. If I recall for example, Icaras HD has a slightly longer burn down time of the boost after a barrel roll than the Fury version. Head to head on the same barrel roll, the HD will stay at full boost speed longer than the Fury version. It also rolls quicker (as do most of the HD ships vs their Fury counterpart because of the reduced weight). I can confirm this because there are certain rolls that I can only do in an HD ship, there just aren't enough examples for it to be relevant though, and the handling tradeoff is more significant to me personally.

To make things fair, all these upgrades would be available for a racebox without having to unlock them, but you'd have to work for it like you did in Fusion for the campaign.

[blackwiggle]

What you are describing is exactly what is happening with Formula Fusion.

You select a chassis, your then select your engine [which determines your speed class], then Handling [How your air brakes work or Craft Pitching works ], Then AG specs's [How Floaty a craft is, or how quickly it get back down to the track] same for defense [Heavy armored hull etc] also defensive and offensive weapons, and how they operate [HUGE range of CHOICE on how these can work]

You can build craft and save them and name them, they then become available in the same manner as different craft are in Wipeout, both online and offline.

It's still in pretty early stages, well no, that's not really true, it's just things need tweaking, but, in all honesty, it's what Wipeout would have become if SL had still been around to build it.

The beauty of it is, it's back to PURE racing, you don't need to be a expert at doing barrel rolls, which put a lot of people off wipeout [Infoxicated - the forums founder-being the most noted]
You are still going to need AG skills.....and good ones at that.

I don't know if the Omega Pack has been released in Japan or Asia as yet [When in Online mode- press square button to change server to those locations to see if any SERVER activity] I have seen 1 single player on Asia server, and that was early on, so I don't know if it was a Beta trail ?

[AdHoc]

There’s some good ideas here, but...

You have to remember what casual players (the main target for Sony) like to do in games: they want to play straight away, they want a good challenge but not a struggle, maybe some nice backstory rubbed in, and no endless fiddling around.

I think "simplicity" is a keyword to behold in the franchise. Which doesn’t mean it should be dulled down by any means.

- - - Updated - - -

Some guy just had a brilliant idea on a French forum: have arenas Ã* la Destruction Derby.

It would be great for Eliminator instead of using the race tracks :nod

[OBH]

What you are describing is exactly what is happening with Formula Fusion.

You select a chassis, your then select your engine [which determines your speed class], then Handling [How your air brakes work or Craft Pitching works ], Then AG specs's [How Floaty a craft is, or how quickly it get back down to the track] same for defense [Heavy armored hull etc] also defensive and offensive weapons, and how they operate [HUGE range of CHOICE on how these can work]

The beauty of it is, it's back to PURE racing, you don't need to be a expert at doing barrel rolls, which put a lot of people off wipeout [Infoxicated - the forums founder-being the most noted]
You are still going to need AG skills.....and good ones at that.

I don't want to get too far into the gameplay and racing mechanics because this isn't a Formula Fusion discussion thread, but personally I really don't like the ship customisation in FF. The first thing my brother did was to select a seperate livery for each team. If you wanted to you could make them all look the same! Personally, I believe that unless you have a blank canvas (ie. you invent a team name and completely design them from the ground up) too much customisation means the team loses it's character. One thing WO oozes is character and style. Feisar, for example, should never, ever be green. If it starts to look like Mirage it loses its individuality.

On the flip side though, that is exactly the kind of thing that people want.

[AdHoc]

A good alternative would be a ship editor, where you can design your own ship with simple tools: shape, colours, stats.

The other ships in the game would stay unchanged and offer a basic set of contenders if you’re lazy like me (and you like the character and charm of long established teams).

[blackwiggle]

Who knows what the gaming scene will be like in 3 - 5 years time.
What is HOT now, could well be Passe then.

Knowing this.....we are also asking people to build new video games for us.....think about that ?

It's NOT YOUR money being invested.....whose is it ?

[mannjon]

Well for me blackwiggle, I understand both sides. My reflexes and sight isn't what it once was which is why I prefer the technical aspects of racing on slower speeds but while barrel rolling everywhere. I think it is a great balance of skills. Yet I still play wipeout 3 on a regular basis too.

I understand why some people don't like the barrel roll. I personally am repulsed by zone and eliminator. But I'm also glad it's there for a little variety. I also very much like the pure racing.

I think the point many of us are trying to make us that a new game would have to extend an olive branch to a generation of gamers that are not like us. Gamers that place a k/d ratio over winning or losing as a team. A generation grown up on rpg elements for everything. A generation that would rather have an online trophy than a world record.

Sadly the franchise has to toss all these things in a game to have wide spread appeal. Also, casual gaming seems to have really caught on, so people want easier games too that offer instant gratification instead of working to git gud.

[OBH]

If you think about successful games now, while raw gameplay is obviously important, it's not the single most important thing like it was in the past. The post release love a title receives to keep things fresh is equally as important. By this I don't mean expansion packs, free tracks, extra teams, and all the stuff that requires a lot of work, i mean very, very small things that make a massive difference, like -


Weekly Community Challenges - Rainbow Six Siege, for example, has things like "Kill 1000 enemies in the next week with nothing but a spoon". A pretty monumental task, and if you do it, you win nothing but a keychain. But people will put the time in to do these challenges because they'll have the little key chain to hang off the front of their ship that thousands of others wont. Things like "Do a Speed Lap under 20 seconds on xxx track on xxx speed to win a new ship skin" would be HUGELY popular. The key part is though is they are all cosmetic rewards. None of them change them gameplay whatsoever.
Community Events - These can be even easier to implement. A little message saying "Show your colours; Qirex or Piranha?" and in a weeks time publishing which team won the most amount of multiplayer matches adds nothing more than a little bit of spice and competition.
"Clip of the month" - couldn't think of another way to word this, and to be honest this one's a little more difficult to do. But I guess it could be a "screenshot of the week" maybe? Just something to encourage saving clips, saving screenshots, and sharing them in game.
Current live Twitch streams - Pretty self explanatory :D Advertise current popular live streams.
Hearing from the developers - Right, this is a massive one for me. All it is, is some kind of article from the developers. and it could be almost anything to do with the game (or even not to do with it!). One of my favourite games at the moment is on Steam called Factorio. Only 2 guys made it, it's sold over a million copies, has the highest average rating on Steam with a frankly unbeatable 99.9% positive, and every single Friday without fail they release something called "Friday Facts". Just a little piece from the developers about whatever subject the want, be it changes to the game, an insight to how it was made, whatever they feel like. It makes a massive difference and they haven't missed a single one for 5 years.



I guess my view on the series is if you want to make a new WO, and want it to be massively successful, I believe it just needs a few features to tie the community together.

[blackwiggle]

Well all of the above are designed to keep current players involved with the game and playing it, but even these can get repetitive after a while, and eventually player levels are going to drift down.

So you also need something to bring new players into a game to replace the ones you are losing, and at the same time re-attract those who have drifted away.

With a game like Wipeout you can't really do much in the way of new craft, as there is basically only 4 specs to play with.
Adding new weapons is a double edged sword because you could easily get it wrong and upset the balance of the game, which would alienate more than bring together, besides, both of the options above mean player options, and the more player options you have can make it slower to load if playing online, you could end up waiting half as long for a track to load as the actual race took , and nobody would put up with that.

The only real thing that would keep people happy would be new tracks.
Now I don't mean a whole add on pack like Fury was to HD, more like one new track added say once every 4 to 6 months would suffice, it would give everybody enough time to play it to death and try to be the fastest on it before the next one came out.

This would also keep the studio building the game active in keeping the old one working properly, while designing anything new, plus one track every 5 months wouldn't need a whole team to do it, they could have the basic framework done, and have new designers and Artist that are coming through have a go at it, this would also keep both the game and the people building it fresh, everybody's happy.....well in theory:)

[AdHoc]

And if we follow the trend on PC, collectibles like skins (CS:GO) or... hats (TF2), hahaha.

But this is a racing game, and the sad truth is futuristic ships don’t attract players as much as real cars, so we’re limited by the small player base anyway.

[OBH]

Completely agree.

Still believe though that small things make a big difference. People love seeing that the developers haven't just abandoned the title once its been released.

[blackwiggle]

I agree totally.
The unfortunate reality is that Sony own the Wipeout brand, and no disrespect intended to the Clever Beans guys, if Sony Legal had their way they would have them tied up in a Dark room so they couldn't post anything
Sony legal would have to be more hated than ISIS, as they are more destructive to ideas.

Besides, anything ported to the PS4 would have to go through a publisher, and when that happens, they usually want to do the port themselves, so the game is separated from it's makers somewhat by going through that process, which lessens the chance of the game makers being able to do it.

[mannjon]

Ok so here is what I don't get. Why do so many gamers like these indie titles that supposedly mimic a return to classical styled games, yet turn around and demand all this new stuff?

I think the general sentiment among most of us here is that we like the current gameplay experience and we just want that with better graphics and new tracks.

I've suggested many features that might make the game more new pilot friendly, but truth be told, I like the game just the way it is.

[WikEv_512]

You are not totally wrong...

Truth is, I even would like some things to go back as they were...

No more barrel rolls and no more side shift. I actually enjoy them, but at the same time I don't. It's strange. Don't Know how to explain it.

And I think it does make the game even harder for new ones. Before all we had to do was to learn the tracks and master the ships.

There were actually nothing else to do (and it was already hard !)

Now there is the side shift to master and the barrel rolls. I am a veteran player in wipeout, I'm far from being the best but I have some pretty good skills.

So I learn a track and when I'm good enough on it I go online... God when I see players with godlike skills like Feisar_2097, roll barreling everywhere, on parts of the tracks I did not even know it was possible, and, thanks to the boost if offers, then skipping entire part of the track it is just... Not fun, but it is also non fun to watch. There is a track, I think we should stay on it and not being able to take short cuts.

About shortcuts, there have always been different routes in Wipeout, but in 2048 it is just too much I think.

So yes, I think for some things Wipeout should go backwards but for other things it should brings some new stuff, as I said I'm a previous post.

And btw, an arena for eliminator mode would be awesome.

I even thought it could become a new sport in the wipeout lore.

And in game we could have 2 careers:

A career for a racing pilot, and another for a combat pilot.

And it could be a team sport like rugby or football: 2 teams of 10 ships each fighting in a huge arena. And season would work like the football world cup with semi finals, final etc.

And the last thing I imagined: Why not in a zero gravity environment? We would pilot our ships more like planes than cars. And we could have some epic dogfights ahah.

But well this is just an idea ^^

[blackwiggle]

Hey, I agree with you on a lot of your observations about how people feel about the game, and possibly which way it might head.

Any chance of getting Wipeoutarena happening again?....seems sad.
I just visited sites in Normandy, and it just irritates me that the ARENA crowd are not involved.
What Happened?

I see Leougnbok is racing on the Omega pack as his old BADTEST name [ How many people would known that?]

[WikEv_512]

I'm glad we agree on what the game should become :)

Well to be honest, I've always been on wipeoutzone (I did not registered until 2011, but was lurking long time before^^) and when I heard about wipeout arena I gave a look at it but it was already relatively quiet. So even if I registered on the site, I didn't stay long there and went back to wipeoutzone...

I don't know anyone there, so I can't tell you what happened or what they are doing now. However, most French wipeout fans I know are often visiting wipeoutzone... So, we, the French, are still here ahah

[mannjon]

I've actually beat 2097 in a few races, and ironically they were on the slower speeds doing Pure Race sessions. I need to reach out to him and see if he wants to be my new nemesis. That role used to be scarfroggers, but I haven't seen him in ages. I personally like having someone I'm on par with, but only if I land every single roll and don't make mistakes. It makes the win worth something. I haven't seen much of MurcielagoMLRZ either now that I think about it, but then again I seldom race on Phantom. And that kind of points out why some of us like the barrel roll mechanic.

My reflexes are not as good as they use to be and I need glasses. I also usually race with a few beers which also hinders performance. But there is just as much skill in learning all the barrel rolls on slower tracks as there is in mastering lines in Phantom speeds. I personally race on the slower speeds because it can turn non-technical tracks into highly competitive super technical tracks where not exiting a turn at just the right angle means you miss out on a barrel roll chain. Example: Vineta K. This is an easy track. But when two masters of roll compete, the track changes, and in my opinion becomes one of the harder tracks.

A typical optimal lap on venom includes landing the following rolls:
• First, barrel roll in the tunnel. However you can hit the semi-hidden weapon and speed pad without sideshifting which is about 0.15 seconds faster. Also, you get the weapon pad to absorb the energy lost in the roll.

• Then if you were lucky enough to get a turbo, you can boost roll over the following straight. But then the question is do I save it for the big turbo roll at the end of the next tunnel before the straight on the entrance or burn it on the straight?

• If you wait, you can get the barrel roll on the gap leading to the final tunnel...
• ...and if you hit the hidden boost pad, you can sideshift over and barrel roll again,
• ...and if you land that, you can go for a third barrel roll on the final part of the track by using the momentum from the previous barrel roll to SS+roll over the speed pad on the right.

• The last roll if you save your turbo instead of burning it, can be used to go for a double by nosing up on the first speed pad of the race (so this is actually the second lap, but for sake of making my point, I count this as part of the first).

If you do all this in a single lap, you'll be far enough ahead that you'll likely be out of quake range by the end of the first lap. But if you are racing with someone else that know all these tricks, it comes down to making all of these each lap, and managing energy by knowing when to leave a bomb, or when to eat it instead. You make split decisions like if I have a turbo but have 1% energy left, do I absorb, or boost into a weapon pad taking a risk?

Without any turbos, there are 4-5 (that last one on near the starting point is stupid hard to do) rolls you can do. Missing just one means you lose unless you turbo lucky (which I never seem to do).

I can't even begin to understand the complexity of the lines in Phantom (though I'm not terrible at it, just not nearly as good as Flash/Venom). So barrel rolls provide a way to be an elite pilot on even the slowest speed classes. I find those races more exhilarating than a close Phantom race, because the attention to detail and micromanaging energy is just so much fun to do! I also like the fact that you seldom have to use airbrakes on Venom and Flash because a sideshift will normally suffice. I can probably (and plan to) eventually get that competitive in Phantom. Rapier is always kind of meh. It is fast enough to cause you to make some errors you can't recover from, but not so fast that you need to worry about breaking into each turn with perfect lines. Essentially, Rapier is fast enough to satisfy but is much harder to run technical races. I'd rather either go slower and focus on flying technical, or fly faster where airbrakes are a must.

Traditionally, venom and flash are for beginners. But those speeds also offer a highly competitive challenge. I think I only beat Cypher one time legitimately on a Phantom race (and by that I mean neither one of us missed a shortcut and were neck and neck the whole race). I consider Cypher to be an elite pilot for sure. But I always had the advantage at slower speed because I knew what was possible at slower speeds and I was more accustomed to relying on tricks to win. I know I will never have the reflexes to be amazing at Phantom, so having the barrel roll mechanic greatly increases my enjoyment and keeps me coming back for more.

So for the TLDR, the point is simple: keep things competitive at multiple levels and I think there has been a lot of attention to detail to do just that.

PS, after reading this I will likely spend 99 laps on each Phantom course, because that is where all the elite action seems to be going on these days!

[Light Buster]

What a new Wipeout needs is a more aggressive marketing campaign. There should be a lot more advertisement for the game and not just YouTube videos or announcements from gaming conventions. It needs TV commercials, billboard advertisements, etc. Sony needs to make their advertising on their exclusives a lot more aggressive if they want people to buy their products.

[mannjon]

What a new Wipeout needs is a more aggressive marketing campaign. There should be a lot more advertisement for the game and not just YouTube videos or announcements from gaming conventions. It needs TV commercials, billboard advertisements, etc. Sony needs to make their advertising on their exclusives a lot more aggressive if they want people to buy their products.

...and by aggressive you mean "some amount over 0" right? There was literally none.

[Hybrid Divide]

Needs actual marketing outside the UK. People in the US didn't know the Omega Collection existed.

[Light Buster]

Exactly. Sony shouldn't be afraid to use other methods of marketing in the US. So far they have only advertised multi-platform games that Sony has exclusives for. They have yet to do any of it for their exclusives specifically. They need more of that if they want success for their games.

[mannjon]

Needs actual marketing outside the UK. People in the US didn't know the Omega Collection existed.

Correction: STILL DON'T

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

Exactly. Sony shouldn't be afraid to use other methods of marketing in the US. So far they have only advertised multi-platform games that Sony has exclusives for. They have yet to do any of it for their exclusives specifically. They need more of that if they want success for their games.

We ought to get on the phone with Sony and fix that.


We’ve got the solution then. The next WipEout needs to be the CS:GO of the franchise: developed around match making.

Turning WipEout into an eSport would more than likely necessitate many aspects of the game to be reworked if you wanted to keep from completely alienating casual players and creating a toxic online community.

Allow me to direct you to Extra Credits (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB9B0CA00461BB187) and Design Club (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5CH8BA8XcqReieXLFf4afI0), two very handy shows on YouTube that can prove to be very helpful for those going into game development. You could also take a look at The Act Man's channel, because he often explains a lot of things about different games turning into eSports (such as Halo 5), and if you asked him about the WipEout series, he might actually provide some useful feedback.


There was a reason Spectator mode was removed.

It could dramatically effect the game in process depending on the region the person was spectating from.

That can't be fixed in software, reason being it's purely a problem related to distance

That doesn't make any sense, though; Spectators shouldn't be sending any data to the race, only receiving from it. You wouldn't send video data to the broadcaster when watching a Twitch stream, so why would you send game data to a lobby when spectating a race?


What a new Wipeout needs is a more aggressive marketing campaign. There should be a lot more advertisement for the game and not just YouTube videos or announcements from gaming conventions. It needs TV commercials, billboard advertisements, etc. Sony needs to make their advertising on their exclusives a lot more aggressive if they want people to buy their products.

Another way to advertise WipEout; the game isn't that big. They should start bundling free demos of their less advertised games as part of other games! Or even as part of movie discs, like they did on the PSP and PS3.

Heck, you could probably get a whole bunch of free demos of PlayStation 4 exclusives (with a lot of content stripped out), and make those demo discs playable on PC, Xbox or even that newfangled Atari Box (assuming it is going to be powerful enough to play modern games) with a whole bunch of "Enjoy the full experience, only on PlayStation" messages.

- - - -

All things considered, I think what WipEout really needs right now is more competition. I am not counting Red:out because it is just too different to be considered a true Arch Rival to WipEout at this point in time; if we want Sony to take AG racing more seriously, and thus start advertising WipEout on a larger scale, we first need to increase mainstream demand for the genre.