HELP!!! - all forum members needed !!

[blackwiggle]

Sorry for the dramatic plea, but the feedback / response R8 is getting from it's current participants in Formula Fusions TPP is slack to say the least......, it's pathetic to be honest.
A Lot of that comes from starting a forum, having people post, and nobody answer... the biggest WTF situation ever.

So, I thought I'd ask the people that do really care about this game...You people reading this NOW, long term AG racers ....WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM THIS GAME?

Topics I have brought up at the TPP froum.

I request all forum members that have finished at least 3 of the 8 Wipeout titles, to voice their opinions regarding the topics below - please answer in the same order as questions asked.
R8 Games NEED to KNOW this stuff......they are NOT getting the feedback they need, quickly enough.
Doesn't matter how good you are/ were at any Wipeout game..... but voice what you ALWAYS THOUGHT....IF they had only done that!...that's what's wanted/ needed.....think AHEAD of what is POSSIBLE with the power of a PS4 / huge PC

1] Proximity alert - Formula Fusion doesn't have one currently in any build - any plans for one? ....I prefer WOHD's simple one....I could imagine the ability to have a bar with, Friend / Foe color intensity shown if online team event were to happen as planned, friend could be Blue, Foe Red.
Formula Fusion Online plans is to have TEAM EVENT's.....Especially on STEAM.....now you know why I' questioning about this.
There are other reasons, but depending on how the build goes, they might not be relevent.

2] Tutorials - How many friends, acquaintances, have you met, that didn't grasp how to play Wipeout ?, or found it's learning curve too high to master, so they gave up ?
Plenty if your experience is similar to mine.
How would you teach somebody Formula Fusion? [Or Wipeout for that matter] What do you think is the biggest hurdle to somebody understanding how to become a competent AG Pilot ?...personally I think it's Air Brakes/steering combo...and getting it right.

So, what do YOU, the forum members suggest, would make a great tutorial to teach this....how should it be done to be easily understood?

I'll leave it at those two questions at the moment.

Please reply !

[Xpand]

1] To be completely honest with you I never actively noticed/cared for this feature in Wipeout, but given the team events I think what you're suggesting is a good idea, although instead of intensity of friend/foe, just make either one indicator for the nearest ship, color coded as friend/foe, or several small arrows color coded as friend/foe for the nearest like 3,4 ships.

2] This is a hard one. From personal experience, a good bunch of people will just ignore the tutorials unless it's forced onto them, in which case they'll pay little attention to the instructions. I used to think in-race tutorials were a good thing. Turns out people get seriously confused, so I now think the Ace Combat 5 approach is better: specific scenarios where a game mechanic (moving, braking, turning, overtaking, using items, etc) is needed, and as you progress through the tutorial scenarios, they'll stack more of your knowledge so far, until the last tutorial scenario that puts everything into play, in this case it could be a whole race.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbuwWNxJnVA

[dreadofmondays]

To be completely honest here, the other two fangames had clear goals and smart devs and didn't need to be told how to make their own game... Id have expected that devs of a ps4 AAA title like FF would actually know what they're doing (apparently i am mistaken)

Tbh the fact is not many people really care about FF.

[shotfan]

I played through W2097, W3, WF and WHD/F.

1] I never payed attention to this indicator. I would like to see an optional small rear-view window on the top instead, like in Gran Turismo, so you may look backwards without losing view of what is in front of you.

2] I have no idea how other people approach tutorials. I prefer when there is a separate training mode/level available that shows all of the basic mechanics in specifically designed environment. Also, I am a fan of Practice mode (in BNG) that allows you to just fly for as long as you like. If there is Practice in Formula Fusion, then I have a suggestion: make an option to set a loop on the track, so you can fly through this section as many times as you need without needing to make a whole lap to approach it again. Should be very useful when learning hard corners or such without wasting time on these portions of the track that you already mastered.

[santuz_rocks]

I can't play FF at the moment (i need a powerful pc) but i will play it for sure in the future.

1 - i like the one from HD
2- Personally I really like the lack of tutorials in wipeout games..it is so characteristic and it makes the game so arcade! I prefer the tips during loading screens and the possibility to practice freely. If developers want a tutorial, i hope it will be divided in sections (like F1 2013)

- - - Updated - - -


make an option to set a loop on the track, so you can fly through this section as many times as you need without needing to make a whole lap to approach it again. Should be very useful when learning hard corners or such without wasting time on these portions of the track that you already mastered.

I completely agree with this! It was missing in wipeout.

[blackwiggle]

Formula Fusion does have a practice mode.

[Cipher]

To be completely honest here, the other two fangames had clear goals and smart devs and didn't need to be told how to make their own game... Id have expected that devs of a ps4 AAA title like FF would actually know what they're doing (apparently i am mistaken)


I kind of have to agree with this unfortunately, they seem to lack a proper game designer who knows what they actually want to achieve (how many times has the physics been overhauled???), I can understand that you want feedback from testers, but that feedback shouldn't be used for coming up with the game mechanics, only for iterating on them

FF Designer guy, if you are reading this, get a whiteboard in the studio, gather the team and write down where you want to go with this game and LISTEN to your team, what they have to input, be objective and acceptive of critique, nobody's perfect

[bigsnake]

To be honest I think there are bigger issues with Formula Fusion that should be addressed before asking those two questions, such as why the partipants arn't wanting to engage as much as they apparently should want to be. Because to me that would indicate a problem with the game, not the people providing feedback. Now I havn't played Formula Fusion but I know enough from seeing it being played and seeing the opinions of other people and I think questions about proximity alerts and how to teach players how to play the game is the last thing that should be of concern right now. Last time I checked on Formula Fusion the physics still seemed pretty rigid and unsatisfying and the track designs looked just as boring and slim. As someone who has fell into this myself and is currently in the process of remaking all the tracks for BallisticNG because I messed up with track design the first time around, I can sort of get an idea of why Formula Fusion isn't getting the engagement R8 would want. It looks and sounds like the game isn't very fun to play which would explain the subpar feedback from players, simply because they don't want to play the game to begin with.

It should also be said that it's concering that this sort of plea for help needed to happen to begin with. With R8 being this supposed team of ex Wipeout developers, I'd want to believe they'd know a bit about how they'd want to go about making an AG racer that is even just a bit similar to Wipeout. I understand and fully support involving a community in a games development, but directly asking the players how you should make the game doesn't really show that there's any plan or structure to the development. The problem I'm seeing with Formula Fusion right now though is that the development is more about content then it is setting up the platform to host that content. Don't get me wrong the game looks absoluetely incredible from a visual standpoint, but from what I've seen and heared it flops from a gameplay standpoint. Readability seems to be a key issue too, I recently saw JamieTheDs livestream of the game and he was having a hard time interpreting what different elements on the HUD were supposed to be showing.

If I'm being completely honest I think it would be best if R8 went back to the drawing board a bit and stop trying to market it as the second coming of Wipeout, or at least stop getting the community hyped up enough to perpetuate that. It's clearly inspired in many areas by Wipeout, but from a gameplay aspect it's not really. I can see the potential in the physics system too but there doesn't seem to be any clear strive to how the ships should handle. Hovering vehicles + airbrakes doesn't automatically equal Wipeout. Wipeout is about precision, flow and rhythm. Ships are floaty but in a very artifical and controllable way, something I'ved noticed a lot of Wipeout inspired games havn't quite understood. One update the game apparently has stiff handling then the next it's really floaty. This sort of change while using the same track designs too, it can't work out like that because the track design needs to compliment the physics. If you're still developing the vehicle handling while you've already got complete tracks then there's going to be major problems in the future. My understanding of the dramatic handling differences between updates is that the dev team likely have something they want to do in mind but then they are also trying to please the people pleaing for Wipeout 2097 physics.

I got a bit off topic but I think it's important that this is said, I really want to see Formula Fusion evolve into something amazing but it doesn't look like it's going to happen with the way it's going at the moment, in my opinion anyway.

[blackwiggle]

Well firstly I am only on the Test Pilot Program, not part of R8, my plea was more to grab peoples attention at this forum more than anything else, as since there is little other action other sections of this forum.

Secondly I have seen many a post at this forum over my 10 years of being a member that have rued the fact that Wipeout never had any real tutorials for it, and many have held the thought that if it had, it wouldn't have had so many people put it in the "Too Hard Bin", that's why I started this post........ I find it rather ironic that when I ask for suggestions to remedy this situation for Forumula Fusion, from the people who should know best what is needed, I get the responses above....... well maybe not quite so ironic considering that the negative comments are coming from people who are making their own versions of a AG racer.

As for the lack of feedback at the R8 forum, well when the forum first opened there was a flurry of posts, but little feedback, then R8 had a massive restructure, and lost it's forum admin, by the time they had restructured and got a new admin, the forum was a ghost town....it has periods when it get a lot of posts, but I will admit, there doesn't seem to be much input except from a few..... S&*T happens...... there is still the Wipeoutzone after all.

The HUD was changed in the last build, a week ago, it's now very easy to read, and doesn't take up much screen space, or interfere with you being able to see what's going on around you...the 3 basic things any HUD needs to do.

As for tracks, well there are the 4 main nearly completed ones, and around another 10+ at least in the works..... all will be playable in reverse and Day/Night....with the possibility of changeable weather as well...... as for Boring.......well if I race a boring track, you can believe me, I'm no shrinking Violet, and let them know when I find something boring, or doesn't seem to work, or make sense and why it doesn't .....My current rant is the existence of the HULK's FART at the start/ finish line [Green opaque cloud on the track], and when is it going to be gone

As for the handling, and why it keeps changing.
The first builds were to get a general feeling for the craft at the 3 different speed classes, the latter builds were to finesse this so they worked on the 4 main tracks, these latter builds have been concentrating on getting the Middle Ground craft, spot on, plus they have just added another change in the physics due to adding jumps on some of the tracks.....think of it as you will, in the way R8 are going about this, but you need to remember to factor in this before you go saying that they are doing it wrong, or should scrap the game and start again.....unlike Wipeout, Formula Fusion will have a GARAGE, where craft upgrades can be made in Speed, Handling, Braking, Shield, Offensive & Defensive.

So basically all a player will have to do is pick a basic craft they are comfortable enough with to win enough races, then upgrade it to their handling preferences..... None of the problems of having to switch to different craft for specific tracks, and still not having a craft that is exactly how you would like it, like we have been putting up with for years with Wipeout games......... the idea for Formula Fusion is to have presets of particular favorite craft configurations ready to load.

I don't see how anybody couldn't see that as anything other than a step forward, for AG Racing games generally.

[dreadofmondays]

The fact is it isn't our job to be their testers, so don't act like any lack of feedback is somehow 'pathetic' of the people there. We don't owe them ****.

[blackwiggle]

It was never a ASKED for you to test anything with FF....please HIGHLIGHT ANYTHING IN ANY OF THE POSTS ABOVE that you can prove that !!!!

All was asked, was to the forum generally

You can't .... So shut the Fu() up !

[JABBERJAW]

From what I have seen of the game, the FF team should ask this community about the physics of the game. They feel off, and not enjoyable. Even though it doesn't have to be wipeout exactly, there are many games that just have a better feel regarding airbrakes and sliding, games such as episode 1 racer, Quantum Redshift, powerdrome, even MACH and Ngen racing have nice physics. Jet moto (despite crap Framerate) and Trickstyle also have good physics models that are wipeout like, but not wipeout.
Wipeout fans I would say like futuristic racers in general, so if the game is not getting a lot of love, I would say to ask us about the game as a whole, and what is good about it, and what needs to be improved. I'm sure there would be many responses to this question

Regarding the original question, a tutorial for taking turns at full speed would have been a very welcome thing in the wipeout games. Take a turn, then repeat process over and over. Perhaps have a timer that shows your time over that short distance so you can figure out the fastest technique by Trial and error

[WikEv_512]

Well, if the devs want more replies and feedback maybe they should stop with their TPP and work with all the early access owners.

For the game itself the only thing they need to work on for the moment is the physic. They shouldn't even try to build new tracks as long as they don't have the physic they want (we want). They said they wanted 2097 like physic... Well just do it. Give us the exact same physic in the next build. Then we will tell you what you have to fix/ improve (because it was not perfect, collision bugs, too bouncy etc) and then build new tracks according to the physic you have !

For the garage thing... Well I don't see how it will affect the physic. You are not building you own ship. In the Formula One games you set up your car as you want it to be. But it still remains a Formula One, you don't get the physic of a Nascar car or a truck. Your is car going a little bit faster but turns a little bit less... And I hope it will be the same in FF. Minor adjustments to fit your drive-style and the track you're on, so it wouldn't impact the physic. But I hope the garage will be more into esthetic changes.

I have a lot more to say, but I've already said it over and over again and it about the environments etc... Focus on the physic guys !

And yes, I do agree with other members on this thread, I still don't get how these so-called ex wipeout dev can't figure out how to make an AG-Racing game, when a single guy figured it out with BallisticNG, even if, of course, it is far from perfect but at least it is closer to WipEout than FF...

[Snakenator1]

Proximity alerts - I find this feature in WO to be a mixed bag, my biggest gripe is that I don't necessarily care about the weapon that is being used against me, instead I'm concerned about where it is coming from on the track in relation to my current position. While HD/Fury does have that mini indicator under the shield gauge that gives a rough approximation of the weapons location relevant to the ship, the problem is....well....its tiny. If they wish to implement this idea to FF (or if they have already) then I want it to be obvious, not subtle like WO. Perhaps have like a corner/side of the HUD light up faintly with a thin redline on the border of the TV screen, to me that would be much more obvious and therefore useful.

Tutorial - Tough one, I'd personally recommend a structure to the tutorial used in FAST Racing League from the nintendo wii where it is given as the "qualification" option. Its compulsory to do before starting the other game modes which may put some people off, but the way shin'en did it makes the tutorial quick, easy to learn and straight to the point while ensuring everyone tries it. This could be adapted to FF but obviously tailored to that game specifically gameplay wise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM3moHPXpNo

I personally have not tried the game so I cannot make any comments from experience about the physics or handling. If I can put my opinion here though then I would tell R8 to make their own physics model that is different to WO and advise against the 2097 physics design. I find the 2097 physics to be somewhat horrid and makes that game a chore to play and as such i've never liked it nor the earlier WO's (my opinion so feel free to disagree). I honestly find simpler physics to be more enjoyable, the overwhelming realistic physics of WO has always been a very mixed bag to me as it introduces so many variables to the gameplay that can affect your race that consistency is almost impossible, while that does mean no two races are the same. But in reality most people are concerned about winning rather than how the game feels, take F-zero for example, the ships aren't floaty, but back in the day it was a bigger franchise because the gameplay was spot on.

Also can we all look at the wider picture here, BallisticNG may have physics closer to WO because it was made by one person who had one clear goal of emulating WO as much as possible and nobody could change that except for suggesting improvements. However R8 is a team wanting to make something different in the footsteps of WO. As such every single developer will have their own ideas about the physics structure which can lead to confliction about which is better, some will like it, others not so much. Therefore they need to create something that is balanced to satisfy everyone at the bare minimum level. You can't just go disregarding them with a "lack of direction about the physics model" without being in their shoes and what they need to do to make everyone happy because that is being somewhat arrogant.

I feel like I'm going off on my own tangent so I'll wrap up now, all I'm trying to say is that R8 should have FF feel the way that satisfies both them and the fans that is different to WO altogether. This is FF, not WO, so why should it have to follow the latter's physics model? Why not let them create something new and then take their time figuring out what works best?
The gameplay should be at the top of R8's concerns right now in my eyes, yes the physics affects gameplay but that can be changed later, the core gameplay mechanics can't once they are set. Get that spot on now and adapt the handling model to it. I won't delve into attracting players back to the game as that is not my area of expertise.

Again, just my opinion, you can disagree with me, but that is my two cents on it.

[Xpand]

I'd argue physics is one of the core gameplay elements, along with game logic itself. You'll base your entire game on these.

[TheConzio]

I agree that the physics feel a bit off (referring to the 20160819 steam update) and they keep changing it all the time. If they could just spend some time to nail down the physics/upgrading system before moving on to anything else, then we'll have a solid game that also looks good.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

1) Many racing games have a Mini-Map function, something that WipE'out'' has always lacked. I toyed with the idea in the past, but other people said it wouldn't be a great idea. I guess it wouldn't hurt to experiment, and make it optional.

2) I am not really sure how to do this with a Racing Game, but the way the Metroid games and Mega Man games teach players is pretty genius.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcrdJD8whfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wLMW4Y6zho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

All of these games try to teach the player how to play without said player even realizing it, and they do a pretty damn good job. If I recall correctly, then the videos I linked will explain why.

Even if you don't find a way to do that too well, you could probably have a Career Mode that serves as a cross between WipEout Pulse's /HD's campaign, and Gran Turismo's career mode. In fact, if you want to add just a little extra polish, you could have fluff about the universe you're racing in unfold as the player progresses, as well as have little challenges so that even the more skilled players will keep coming back for more.

3) The art direction; it has been a while since I watched a video of this game, but the last time I did... everything was brown, silver and grey. And dirty. I don't want that in a racing game (except possibly a small amount of dirtiness), I want vibrant and diverse colors! I want shiny things to accent the not-so-shiny things.

I would rather have epileptic seizures than depressing and uninspired visuals with a grey/green/brown tint-filter on everything. It's why people keep trying to get their hands on the WipEout HD press-kits, because it's Zone Mode looked freaking awesome.

[TheConzio]

Now that I've joined the TPP, I'm impressed with the progress that they've made with the handling/physics in their latest build. Apart from the camera-sway thing like in the older Wipeouts, I think they're going for their own style of handling (which is a good thing IMO). You have to build up speed with the speed pads rather than being at top speed from the get-go (watch from 1:24 to see what I mean).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13b5VGWYD7k


The art direction; it has been a while since I watched a video of this game, but the last time I did... everything was brown, silver and grey. And dirty. I don't want that in a racing game (except possibly a small amount of dirtiness), I want vibrant and diverse colors! I want shiny things to accent the not-so-shiny things..

There have been improvements to that as well, but I don't think their aim is to make a fully colourful and always-happy game like Wipeout HD. Maybe the third track in the video will most resemble what you're looking for :P

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

I am not looking for always happy, I am looking for not-depressing. Racing games aren't supposed to look depressing.
And again, the tint-filter. Why are so many modern games abusing Color Correction? (By Inari's tail, are art designers secretly being replaced with lizards!?)

[shotfan]

Now that I've joined the TPP, I'm impressed with the progress that they've made with the handling/physics in their latest build. Apart from the camera-sway thing like in the older Wipeouts, I think they're going for their own style of handling (which is a good thing IMO). You have to build up speed with the speed pads rather than being at top speed from the get-go (watch from 1:24 to see what I mean).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13b5VGWYD7k


Now, the game starts to look a bit more like W2097. Also, nice idea with the mechanic of speed buildup from speedpads. Not everything must be exactly as in the old Wipeouts, after all.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

One thing I wanted to see in a WipEout successor/spinoff would be regenerating health, and absorbing replaced with a second weapon rack like in Rollcage.

The speed build-up from speed pads actually reminds me a bit of the FEISAR Prototype in 2048.

[blackwiggle]

FF 'Currently ' has 3 different pads types, that offer either a speed boost, a +health or +shield
KERS charge build up [TURBO], as it was in the previous build, was built up by running as close to a perfect lap as possible [no wall scraping ]

It's been changed around a few times over the last few build's, it's hard to work out what will work best, as this will be the first [Wipeout like] AG racer with up-gradable craft specs in 'Garage'