Trump / Clinton - a no win situation either way.

[blackwiggle]

Thankfully I'm watching this debacle of a US election campaign from afar, and it doesn't directly effect me, at least for the first 24 hours after the result is known.....stocks / futures OUCH!, things are going to go haywire if you are a investor.

Anyway, from where I'm sitting, Trump is a Grump, a narcissistic little rich kid whose ill gained money [due to Tax evasion and suing everybody under the sun] allows him to spread his WAR BABY, 1950's opinions.
Of all his guff and plans to 'Make America Great Again"... absolutely NO details on how he would do it.

Clinton is so tarnished, it hard to know were to start.... even if she were to win the presidency, her whole tenure as president would be shadowed with people about to give her up, even within her own rank and file, that she would be on the back foot, trying to quell the facts coming out, so basically totally ineffectual as a president.

Since the election looks like it is going to be so close, regardless of who win's, I see the poor American people losing..... Hell, a lot will die of embarrassment of the fact that both candidates have spent more time slagging each other off than actually stating what they stand for.

If Trump gets elected, I'm speculating that within 18 months somebody will assassinate him, probably somebody within his own people, as he is such a embarrassment, and he has caused so much of a fallout within the party he says he represents [From where I'm sitting, and could be taken as the general consensus of NONE American people watching this election, the only person Trump is representing is Trump ]

If Clinton gets elected, she will end up being totally ineffectual, and probably undermined by previous supporters like David Geffen, who have the $$, and know how, and want, to get rid of her..... end up impeached , and end up as big a stain on American politics as Nixon.

So that covers the next possible 4 years....what happens after that?

:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall:brickwall :brickwall:brickwall

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

I suggest just doing a write-in for a third-party. Otherwise, game over.
I would also like to point out that the situation with Clinton is even worse than you make it out to be, though due to a mobile device, a lack of first-hand research, and the fact it is five hours past my bedtime... I can't go into a detailed explanation right now. I can only hope that enough voters can figure out which candidate is the lesser of two evils.

[shotfan]

There are not only Trump and Clinton. There are also Stein and Johnson. Not that changes much, but still. I just wanted to note that there are more than two parties in US, since at every mention of election people seem only to remember Trump and Clinton (I do not meant you here, Amaroq, of course ;)).
In my interpretation, Trump got bored with his reality show and decided to play a presidential canditate role, and does not actually run for the president. Hence his outrageous statements and lack of clarity on anything. I am just baffled that Republican leadership allowed him to be their candidate.
And of course, what happens in the closing days of the election? Sex scandal bashing! Because this is the most important thing to consider when picking the next president - his/hers sex appetite. Not fiscal policy, not military policy, not even social issues! Not that I condone anything Trump says. But the resurfacing of the Clinton's e-mail storage scandal at the same time is suspicious as well.
I am just happy that this pathetic show ends the day after tomorrow. I am sick and tired of it. And seeing how senile two major candidates are, it seems that either one will be ruled over by his advisors and secretaries, and not the other way.
Also, I am not an American citizen, so no vote for me anyway. At least the direct consequences of this idiocracy will not land on me.

So whatever.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

Clinton was actually running a rather corrupt game, even going so far as to share the Federal Government's secrets with unauthorized foreign parties. The current administration refuses to let the FBI do a public investigation since it could affect the election, but isn't that the idea? What happens if an ex-convict buys their way into office, and nobody knows that they are an ex-convict until it is too late? By that point, they could just pardon themselves. The issue is the same with Clinton, who actually performed treasonous acts with her colleagues (I hope I spelled that right).

I don't know if I'm registered to vote or not, but I'm definitely going to do a write-in. Anything to keep that vote from going to Clinton. (If it were up to me, the entire Executive branch would be given a complete overhaul.)

[Hellfire_WZ]

I am incredibly wary of political threads popping up as almost every single one I have seen has inevitably turned into a slanging match. As this is a major topical issue I'll keep it open, but all I will ask is that you all keep it civilised. I will close it the second I see things getting heated

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

Understood.

[AdHoc]

I will be lucky (or unlucky) enough to be in NYC on election day. I don’t think I really care what happens, I just hope the best case scenario will unfold. In any case, it shall be... interesting.

[Snakenator1]

At the rate the election is going there doesn't seem to be a "best case scenario" as neither Clinton or Trump have fully disclosed their intentions on what they will do as President since they keep trying to score points on each other. Whoever wins will still result in a knock-on affect to the rest of the world, but briefly breaking it all down:

Trump wants to spread his ideologies of making "America great again" by going back to a 1950's era time like Blackwiggle quite correctly said, if this happens then there will be big implications to all American citizens. Perhaps women and LGBT will be the worst affected due to his somewhat lack of respect towards basic human rights. Trump also thinks of science as an afterthought so I can already see the health and medicine industry, renewable energy and engineering taking a huge blow from the lack of funding they'll probably get from him which will have a knock-on affect for other countries as America does make some of the best progress in said fields which we all benefit from.

While Clinton seems like a better choice, the re-surface of the email storage scandal does now mean that how many people trust her will most likely diminish meaning a higher chance for Trump to win. Clinton also hasn't expressed many of her policies due to the fact she is always bickering about Trump and so as far as I'm aware, we have little to go on which to me is not very promising.

My knowledge of the whole topic is limited as I'm not an American citizen myself so I may be very wrong. But regardless we'll have to wait and see really about what the future will have planned.

[AdHoc]

Should have said the least bad scenario...

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

Most of you guys may not be Americans, but you all do seem to be a lot more well-informed about our politics than most people this side of the Atlantic.

I know this isn't really a lot to base a legitimate political stance on... but whenever I see a video or picture of Donald Trump, or of Hillary Clinton, I just feel a strange shiver up my spine. Like on the lowest instinctual level, I sense something evil about both of them. Moreso from Clinton, actually. In Trump's case, he is just kind of an asshole.

I'm going to withdraw from the discussion now. I'd hate to be responsible if it spirals out of control.
Fly safe~

[blackwiggle]

QUOTE
Every nation gets the government it deserves.
Joesphe de Maistre 1811

In 'On the Street" interviews we see with Americans about this election, the vast majority say they are disillusioned with both parties, and recent governments, saying that they haven't represented the people and what they were voted in to do.

To none Americans, it appears that the American people have allowed their political system to be systematically weakened by corporate interference/ lobbyists, over several [4] decades, and not representing the people that elected them.

So what's happened to do this?
Pretty basic arithmetic will tell you.
It all boils down to the voter turn out, here's the numbers of voters in the last 4 American elections that actually voted
2000 - 54.2%
2004 - 60.4%
2008 - 62.3%
2012 - 57.5%
Taken as a average over those last 12 years, that's 41% of the population of the most powerful nation on earth that isn't represented by it's own government, all because it chose not to vote.

In Australia it is compulsory to vote, you get fined if you don't, when Americans are told that they are in disbelief, thinking it contradicts ones civil liberties.
Sure it's a PITA to stand in line for about 30 minutes once every 4 years, but by having everybody having to do so, we get to keep the bastards honest, and neither a candidate like Trump or Clinton would ever have a hope of hell of being voted in to run the country.

Get out and VOTE

[JABBERJAW]

Most of you guys may not be Americans, but you all do seem to be a lot more well-informed about our politics than most people this side of the Atlantic.

I know this isn't really a lot to base a legitimate political stance on... but whenever I see a video or picture of Donald Trump, or of Hillary Clinton, I just feel a strange shiver up my spine. Like on the lowest instinctual level, I sense something evil about both of them. Moreso from Clinton, actually. In Trump's case, he is just kind of an asshole.

I'm going to withdraw from the discussion now. I'd hate to be responsible if it spirals out of control.
Fly safe~

Yes. I would say foreigners are far better informed on US politics than Americans. The Television programs and news are in Hillarys pocket, not exposing her for legitimate concerns, basically cheating in the election, whereas Radio, is the exact opposite with Trump, not dealing with his crap. A couple examples, ok. Hillary Calls Trump racist for wanting to build a wall, however, she(and Obama) in fact voted to build the full wall in 2006. This has not been discussed even once. other side, Trump says he's anti-abortion, but is wishy washy both ways, and no questioning regarding this by anti abortionists or radio talk show hosts wanting the truth either way.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

Hillary has also allegedly traded government secrets with people in other countries and/or accepted bribes. While I don't have any solid evidence of this, the fact she frequently changes her public opinion, plays dumb and tries to hide things only makes her look worse and worse in my eye.

I also heard that Trump changes his mind about things an awful lot too; trying to censor the internet during the ISIS Crisis (rhyme intended), then subsequently saying "We should NOT turn the internet over to an international agency, because then other countries could censor as much of the internet as they want, even outside their own borders." (Heavily shortened and paraphrased.) He also seems to switch between "I love/hate China" on an almost schizophrenic basis. And did I mention he said he wanted to kick all muslims out of this country by force? That didn't earn him very many brownie points, that's for sure. 嫌いなもの.

I said it before, and I'll say it again; I'd rather vote for a third-party. In fact, I'll probably vote for Charlie Emery. (http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/member.php?116-Hellfire_WZ) (The awesome thing about write-ins, you can vote for whoever you want. As long as it's an actual name.)

[shotfan]

QUOTE
Every nation gets the government it deserves.
Joesphe de Maistre 1811

In 'On the Street" interviews we see with Americans about this election, the vast majority say they are disillusioned with both parties, and recent governments, saying that they haven't represented the people and what they were voted in to do.

To none Americans, it appears that the American people have allowed their political system to be systematically weakened by corporate interference/ lobbyists, over several [4] decades, and not representing the people that elected them.

So what's happened to do this?
Pretty basic arithmetic will tell you.
It all boils down to the voter turn out, here's the numbers of voters in the last 4 American elections that actually voted
2000 - 54.2%
2004 - 60.4%
2008 - 62.3%
2012 - 57.5%
Taken as a average over those last 12 years, that's 41% of the population of the most powerful nation on earth that isn't represented by it's own government, all because it chose not to vote.

In Australia it is compulsory to vote, you get fined if you don't, when Americans are told that they are in disbelief, thinking it contradicts ones civil liberties.
Sure it's a PITA to stand in line for about 30 minutes once every 4 years, but by having everybody having to do so, we get to keep the bastards honest, and neither a candidate like Trump or Clinton would ever have a hope of hell of being voted in to run the country.

Get out and VOTE
I do not think that all of the non-voting citizens are lazy. This is a more complex issue. There are probably many facets of non-voting: aforementioned disillusionment, but also short-time "yellow card" rebellion ("I am not voting this cycle, maybe the politicans will notice and the next one will be better"), simple anarchism, maybe even secessionist sentiment. But I suspect that of non-voters, the biggest group are the people that normally would be ready to vote, but are so unsatisfied with the choices they are given, that they do not vote for anyone. After all, there is always only a handful of candidates every election for a head of state. If a voter does not find any of the candidates nowhere tolerable enough, the he/she will not go to vote. And current two major candidates in US presidential election are probably the least trusted ones ever. And frankly, I do not think that high voter turnout would help American democracy to battle any clandestine corporate/militaristic/foergin/whatever influence some groups exert on the government in spite of voter choice. I find hard to imagine that the president would suddenly listen more closely "to the people" if they have given him/her more votes.
Also, I can relate to any American opposing fines for no voting. This IS an aggression on one's civil liberty, IMO. You should vote for anyone because he/she offers a policy you agree with, not because you must. Penalizing for not voting is like treating people like children: that they do not know what is the best for them, so they must be forced to do something against their will. So are we treating voters as reasonable people or just as a (human) resource to give legitimacy to whatever government is now formed? So no, thanks for that.

[PureSpeed7]

Welp. Tomorrow is officially America's expiration date. Grab some popcorn and watch the corruption happen.

[blackwiggle]

Yes. I would say foreigners are far better informed on US politics than Americans. The Television programs and news are in Hillarys pocket, not exposing her for legitimate concerns, basically cheating in the election, whereas Radio, is the exact opposite with Trump, not dealing with his crap. A couple examples, ok. Hillary Calls Trump racist for wanting to build a wall, however, she(and Obama) in fact voted to build the full wall in 2006. This has not been discussed even once. other side, Trump says he's anti-abortion, but is wishy washy both ways, and no questioning regarding this by anti abortionists or radio talk show hosts wanting the truth either way.

Trump says women should be punished for having a abortion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Jpoecf0xY

[JABBERJAW]

Sounds like he wants it outlawed, he should speak more clearly for sure, take a real stance. Of note, Mathews is one of the guys I'm speaking about regarding being honest. I'd like to see how he questioned Hillary. Mathews said he stands with the church on all issues, meaning he is against abortion, which probably isn't true ( as both of them dodged questions ). I'm not sure why if you were a republican you would go on CNN, or if you were a democrat you would go on Fox. They should know what they were getting into.

However, The debate should have been each candidate answering questions from the other parties head person. Then we could have some legit questions for each, and not have a completely biased questioner. Also, the candidate or candidates wouldn't get the questions ahead of time.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

On the subject of Pro-Choice versus Pro-Life... hasn't anyone heard of surrogate parents? Why does there need to be so much conflict?

Back to the subject of politics, I think we shouldn't be discussing how we are all screwed, but rather ideas on how we could prevent this sort of thing from happening again in the future. The whole damn system needs a bloody overhaul.

[blackwiggle]

I think you can lay the blame on J.Bush Sr campaign manager Carl Rove for a lot of the current mess, because of they way he manipulated what were disparate groups into one large one that thought alike.

He's the one that saw that if he got Bush to get Christian voters to like him, and he played to their wants, he would have a huge amount of voters that weren't previously motivated to group together, and choose one candidate over the other, prior to that they weren't a concern to either major political party, as they weren't organized as a group, well they didn't exist as a group, now they are a major force, and governing polices that they want to see in place, like this abortion matter.

Likewise the N.R.A has a huge effect on who it's members should vote for and why, and you see so many back downs to any attempt at gun control because of it, even though every sane person knows it is sorely needed.
When you have so many weapons out among the public, you also get Police Forces that take on almost Military tactics for even the most mundane job, of say pulling over a driver....they are scared of getting shot.

It's only in the U.S.A that you have these two major forces calling the shots to a huge amount of voters, that you get all parties pandering to them so they can get their votes, as they know that they can't win - or it would be extremely hard to, win a election without their support.

If you could somehow lessen the voting clout both of these groups have, you would get a far better government

I can't think of any group in either the UK or Australia that could sway a election result enough to be a concern.

I think the only time in my living memory of when the U.S.A Election actually hard a 3rd option, was when Ross Perot ran as a candidate in 92.....pity you other options running in this election didn't have the funding to put up some opposition to Trump / Clinton.

Personally I think Clinton will win, mainly because she will rightly get a lot of women to vote for her, for so many reasons.
Trump has just alienated and divided people, just campaigning , if he wins I think they will change the words of Irving Berlins song to "GOD HELP AMERICA" , I can envisage that being sung at next years Baseball games. ....this was meant as tongue in cheek, please don't take offense.

One person that is retrospectively apologetic about asking Trump to run as a presidential candidate ...John Oliver.
If it wasn't so serious, it would be a lot funnier...Damm you John Oliver, what have you done. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XndcZgxxXPs

The thinking here is, whoever wins Florida, will win the Presidency.

LANCE ! Who are you old farts voting for down in Florida?

[JABBERJAW]

This divide will always exist. If you agree with abortion, you will never see the other side. If you think abortion is murder, you will not be swayed, there is no middle ground. There are certainly middle grounds on immigration, but neither side wants to use any common sense. Basically all they are thinking about are more or less votes, and not what is good for the country

[ThoughtfulSystem_95]

Yeah, to me, this election is just a game of "pick your poison."

But I must say, you guys have a very good knowledge of American politics. I don't even pay attention to politics much. :)

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

Apparently, it is illegal for the polling centers to give out ANY information on the candidates, so if you see two names you DON'T want to vote for, followed by two names you are completely UN-familiar with? What in the entire cosmos are you supposed to do about that?!

This government just wants to keep its citizens as much in the dark as possible and watch the stupidity that unfolds as a result. 絶対に愚かなクソ

I had to go straight libertarian; I had the names of the Libertarian and Greens candidates, but I knew literally nothing about them because nobody talks about them. All I did know when I was at the polling station was "I don't want Trump in office, and I don't want Clinton in office. Now just who the hell are these two? Eenie-meenie-miny-moe." I would have just done a write-in, but my father pressured me to vote for somebody who was already there.

EDIT: And now more than half the people I follow on twitter are saying things like "PLEASE vote for Trump", so I am feeling absolutely terrified because I have no idea if I made the right decision or not. For all I know, I just doomed the entire country.

[shotfan]

Seems that I was ignorant myself about the actual number of the candidates. Whereas Trump, Clinton and Johnson are the only ones that have ballout access in all 50 states, there are many more. Aside from Stein, Wikipedia states (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016) there are also Constitutional party candidate (Darell Castle), some independent that is popular in Utah (Evan McMullin), and least 22 other candidates. That is a lot, actually. But of course you would have a hard time hearing something about a non-Trump&non-Clinton candidate all the campaign, unless you looked for it yourself. I only bothered to check actual candidates on the Election Day... shame on me.

Apparently, it is illegal for the polling centers to give out ANY information on the candidates, so if you see two names you DON'T want to vote for, followed by two names you are completely UN-familiar with? What in the entire cosmos are you supposed to do about that?!

This government just wants to keep its citizens as much in the dark as possible and watch the stupidity that unfolds as a result.絶対に愚かなクソ

I had to go straight libertarian; I had the names of the Libertarian and Greens candidates, but I knew literally nothing about them because nobody talks about them. All I did know when I was at the polling station was "I don't want Trump in office, and I don't want Clinton in office. Now just who the hell are these two? Eenie-meenie-miny-moe." I would have just done a write-in, but my father pressured me to vote for somebody who was already there.

EDIT: And now more than half the people I follow on twitter are saying things like "PLEASE vote for Trump", so I am feeling absolutely terrified because I have no idea if I made the right decision or not. For all I know, I just doomed the entire country.
Polling stations are not well suited to inform you of the candidates in any length. That could easily turn them into centers of mass propaganda, swarmed all the day with the supporters of both major parties (if they are not already - I do not have first-hand experience here). But if they give you even no basic information (like sex, age, occupation etc.), then something is fishy indeed.

So, you went for Johnson? Are people you know accusing you that you "wasted your vote in favour of [major candidate they do not like]"?

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

At the moment, I'm keeping my mouth shut around my family about who I voted for. All I'll say is "Not Clinton." A lot of them are Trump supporters.

[shotfan]

This madness ends soon, so later you reveal to them your choice the better. I myself have to contend with people everyday that are mostly of opposing political views to mine. Unless you are a politician or political activist, speaking openly about your political preferences is counterproductive, as it always leads to major discord (if not outright shouting contests), at least in my experience. So much for rational discussion.

[stinkleroy]

Honestly, it doesn't really matter who you vote for. All politicians are puppets, merely a spokesperson for the big bad corporate sector.

Ever noticed how there's no "none of the above" box on your ballot? The choice is not ours until we have the right to choose no-one.

Feel sorry for the world right now, especially our friends in the US. Good luck :)

[Snakenator1]

Its really saying something when Trump and his son Eric effectively broke the law on this election day, Trump looked into his wives booth to check on her vote and his son tweeted his ballot

If I'm not mistaken but the law in New York clearly prohibits both of these actions and as such they could both face 1 year in prison and be fined $1,000 (£808.84). Likely they won't be punished necessarily anytime soon because of the fact that Trump is going for presidency but the fact that he did this (possibly knowingly) does not scream confidence to me about his future actions.

Politics is that subject that you cannot discuss, you can only debate and argue about it, I personally think Clinton will win but I can be wrong. We won't have to wait long to see however, best of luck to all American pilots on the forum, hopefully you'll all find a silver lining somewhere.

[JABBERJAW]

Not sure if you can make chicken salad out of........

[blackwiggle]

Looks like Trump has won unless Clinton wins Pennsylvania.

Thanks Donald, $47 billion wiped off the Australia stock market on that news, expect stocks worldwide to nose dive, investment will go elsewhere, probably Europe, the exact opposite of what Trump needs to Make America Great Again.

The Canadian immigration website has crashed ...True

A news item I just read.
George W. Bush cast a protest vote of sorts in the US election, with an aide saying the former president chose "none of the above" rather than fellow Republican Donald Trump or Democrat Hillary Clinton.

[Amaroq Dricaldari]

The bad news is that Trump won. The good news is that Clinton didn't.

[blackwiggle]

Apparently in future elections you have in the U.S.A, they will be using 'Preferences'.
We have that system here, it's good in a way because protest votes for a candidate that hasn't really got a chance of winning over all, aren't really wasted, as they can still effect government policy.

What that means is that any other losing candidate, can preference any vote they get, to a candidate of their choice.

This will also benefit people running for president who are not either Republican or Democrats, as they can shift the political stances to a certain extent, of whichever party they align themselves with.
It would also get them more press coverage, rather than just the big two parties, as both of the major parties would want to get those preferences, so it would be in their best interest to not dismiss them.

The only good thing to come out of this election if you are not a Trump supported, is the number of states that have legalized Marijuana.... hell you would want to have a big spliff after that election even if you didn't smoke.