Keyboard control?

[ProblemSolver]

Thanks god the keyboard era is over. A keyboard really distract from a game
when being used as a steering input device. But I would also like to see more
keyboard support in games for assigning shortcuts and stuff.
Well, Dan, you better tinker a little bit more around with the DS3. I once
started out with analogstick only (for about a year), but have then adapted
myself to the d-pad and are now able to enjoy the game on various scales.
And the shoulder buttons (L1/R1) work like a charm considering side-shifting.
Try it! Ok, if the DS3 doesn't feel natural to you, no problem. But if a
keyboard would make one any faster, then I guess most of the top10 players
can also go faster using a keyboard. Hence, being faster with a keyboard is
relative at best. But if a keyboard feels more natural to you so be it.

On a personal note; I hope keyboard & mouse doesn't make a return. The (PC)
gaming industry has suffered from it quite too long. How many shooters can we
take? Joysticks were abandoned long ago (the game-port wasn't easy to program,
bad standards to say at least). For sure, one could also use a controller on
a PC, but the games were never really built for it. And with the advent of
input devices like the Wiimote, Playstation Move, and Natal, the PC now even
loses traction to the consoles and will fall behind even more as time goes
by, since games won't be portable any longer. And I don't assume someone will
do something similar for the PC any time soon. You know what? I don't even
think 3-D gaming will carry over to the PC. It never took off on PC despite
multiple attempts were made. In summary, some games play better with a
keyboard like cs and WoW, but supporting a keyboard doesn't serve the gaming
industry as a whole. I wanna play new games using the PS Move in 3-D
giving me an unique experience. Supporting a keyboard as the main input device
is always a step backward. It's a nice addon, like it's done on the PS3.
Anyhow, that's at least my take on the keyboard & mouse discussion. I think
a hardcore PC gamer will argue the complete opposite. xD

[rdmx]

Frankly I don't see why K+B support is a step backward.
An average PC gamer with a keyboard+mouse setup could wipe the floor with any 'pro' console fps gamer especially if they have no auto aim to rely on. It's a much more precise setup.
The uptake of 3d gaming on console isn't going to be too great either when you consider that you need to buy a new TV to take advantage of it. People have just started the uptake of highdef screens, how many are going to race out to buy 3d capable hardware?
-Playstation move/natal
This video is why move/natal is a mere novelty at best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT1BHz7Ck1o
I don't quite fancy flailing about to play a game. Maybe if technology significantly improves and we start having 'minority report' style controls for rts games...
Mind you, gamepads are admittedly still better for racing games.

[JABBERJAW]

keyboard/mouse is far superior in fps games, but not for others. wipeout hd would work great with it, as there is no advantage to analog control as there should be for a wipeout game. if it was possible for pure pulse, it would be incredible I think with the pitch thing and barrel rolls would be easy.

[Amorbis]

It is possible to use keyboards as controllers through an adapter on the PS3. I've never used one but there is such thing as the XCM XFPS, which can be be found here:
http://www.xcm.cc/XFPS_4.0_Force.htm

From my experience with playing the 2097 demo on the PC, I wouldn't use a keyboard for WipEout, but I don't see why you shouldn't if you prefer it.

[Dan Locke]

@ProblemSolver

What's so bad about the keyboard/mouse combination that PC games have "suffered from it", and that it's "a step backward"? The keyboard is, by far, the best digital input device ever conceived, and the mouse, while nowhere near as good as an analog thumbstick for precise movement, beats it soundly for everything else. And don't try to tell me that "wave and hope"-style motion control like Natal is anything but a ridiculous, technology-driven fad - sure, it's technically impressive (for the moment), but it's only suitable for niche uses. I'd rate its practicality somewhere between that of the DDR pad and the Space Orb. There's no way that people are going to trade in the practicality and versatility of a traditional controller or keyboard for the horrid vagueness of motion control, except for party games.

What motion control diehards always fail to understand is that, without a way to limit motion to what is possible within the game's environment, the system doesn't work at all - at least, not in the way that they say that it does.

I think a hardcore PC gamer will argue the complete opposite. xD

I happen to belong to the glorious PC gaming master race.

@Amorbis

That adapter looks nice, but I'm not sold on the idea of having to use my whole laptop as a keyboard. That said, my laptop's keyboard is better than any standalone keyboard that I've used (scissor switches > dome switches), so it might actually be better that way.

[Connavar]

If you're right handed, then I agree analog stick is not the way to play Wipeout
HD, because you have to use the left stick, barrel rolls on it etc.

I agree with PS, just use the d-pad and L1/R1, give it some time, and you'll see
it actually works great!

[ProblemSolver]

... What's so bad about the keyboard/mouse combination that PC games have "suffered from it", and that it's "a step backward"? ...

... Frankly I don't see why K+B support is a step backward. ... An average PC gamer with a keyboard+mouse setup could wipe the floor with any 'pro' console fps gamer especially if they have no auto aim to rely on. It's a much more precise setup.

I think you both don't get my point. It's not that K+M is any bad. But if you
would replace the DS3 with K+M and treat a DS3 like a game-pad on a PC (as an
afterthought), then most of the games won't be any fun to play. Certainly,
there are games playing better with a K+M, but that's just a very small subset
of all games. Just to let you know, I've played with K+M for about half of my
life starting with Duke Nukem and Quake back in 1996.

Well, my last post was written on a more general perspective (gaming industry).
If K+M would be superior for most games, then Microsoft and Sony would have
gone this way with the 360 and PS3. But K+M just doesn't lend itself to most
games. UT3 has K+M support on the PS3, but it never took off in any way. If
it would had made a huge impact, then CoD, KZ2, and others would support K+M
as well. But that's just not the case. Sure, K+M is more accurate for some
games, but I question whether it is any more realistic. If you ask me, it
takes more skill to control a DS3 esp. when combos and stuff should also be
applied at the same time.

The uptake of 3d gaming on console isn't going to be too great either when you consider that you need to buy a new TV to take advantage of it. People have just started the uptake of highdef screens, how many are going to race out to buy 3d capable hardware?

My comparison was made with respect to PC gaming. How many are going to buy
a 3-D TFT for their PC gaming rig? I think many many more people will buy a
3-D TV for console gaming and for watching 3-D Blu-rays and 3-D TV shows.
Thing is, it's just not appealing on a PC. You properly have to upgrade your
graphics system as well. But there is another problem. The PC has 'no'
standard / defaut 3-D input device. K+M doesn't cut it. 3-D is only half the
story without such an input device. And as such the PS Move really plays an
essential part with respect to 3-D. Not every game will profit from PS Move,
obviously, but the PS Move is what makes one connect to the 3rd dimension
while viewing stuff in 3-D.

... This video is why move/natal is a mere novelty at best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT1BHz7Ck1o

Yeah, I know that one. It's the latest video / gif on the web. xD

Anyhow. Whether Natal or PS Move will be successful or not depends on the
developers. Personally, I think the PS Move is underestimated due to all
the weak Wiimote games. The PS Move has a lot more potential. And Sony has
already said to the developers; "If it doesn't work on the Wii, it won't work
on PS3 either. So don't blame us if your game doesn't sell!".

However you will turn it, the console have pulled the gaming industry forward
within the last years. Graphics performance and unique K+M games are things
of the past. They did their job! Speaking of PC today, there aren't even
games like MGS4, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, WipEout HD, GT5, GoW III, etc. on
the PC, neglecting the question whether playing them with K+M would yield
any benefits.

[Amorbis]

This adapter requires a PS/2 keyboard, which can be seen in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNDGE239EoY

It accepts a keyboard and a mouse, which you can assign to different buttons and axises.

[JABBERJAW]

connovar, I wouldn't use a keyboard/mouse because I don't like them much, but the barrel roll would be fast as heck considering you fingers are on both buttons at the same time, and you don't have to make the dpad travel accross the middle. Also, if you are used to it pitch would be great as well, very fast.

[Connavar]

deleted

[ProblemSolver]

... Really now? Last I checked, people preferred to play Call of Duty on the PC because of the keyboard and mouse support. Because it does "make a huge impact".

I'm not sure whether the vast majority plays CoD on the PC. Anyway, that's
not the point. The point is that K+M isn't as attractive on a console as it
is on the PC, because there are many different types of games on consoles
not playing well with K+M. And it seems like that supporting K+M isn't of
any real demand on consoles either, since a shooter can also been played
well with a controller. Sure, aiming is faster and more precise with K+M
but on a console each and everyone has the same input device. And who said
that a shooter can't be played well with a controller? Most of the advantages
of a K+M setup lead to unrealistic behavior; in reality you just can't aim,
turn, and look around as fast as you want. But who said that a shooter needs
to be any realistic? Well, I played KZ2 and MGO (a lot) online, and I have
to say that I do like the controls, even if I can't hit the left eye of an
opponent every time. These games play fine with a controller, no need for
K+M, honestly.

All of that is irrelevant, as you can't "connect to the 3rd dimension" at all without the equivalent of a Holodeck or the Matrix. ...

Don't take my "3rd dimension" literally. Thing is, using a 3-D input device
in conjunction with a 3-D display will enhance your 3-D immersion / sensation.
Let's talk about Holodecks and the Matrix about 50 years from now.

... The Wii remote and PlayStation Move are, at best, barely-passable replacements for mouse control. (As far as 6DoF positioning goes, the Space Orb did it perfectly back in the '90s.) ...

I think here lies your misconception. The PS Move isn't a replacement for
mouse control. It seems like that you are underestimating the issue of
navigating within a (stereoscopic) 3-D scene, perspective projected onto the
screen, with a 2D input device that lives on the projected screen. Your
argument leads me to the conclusion that you never tried it at all. I did 3-D
visualization of fluid simulations on a 3-D PowerWall using a 3-D input device
making it possible to track and to emit particles at precise spatial
locations. Watching and navigating all the stuff in 3-D is a completely
different thing than anything what is 3D or 2D. A 2D mouse doesn't help the
slightest. If developers build suitable games that make good use of the
spatiality the PS Move has to offer, then you will see that the PS Move
isn't just a "barely-passable replacements for mouse control". Quite the
contrary is the case.

... Remind me how this is in any way related to our discussion. ...

The discussion was / is whether K+M would be better or not. And I said; no,
it isn't. And I extended the discussion saying that K+M isn't really necessary.
And I also said that K+M focused games on the PC haven't lead to many great
games within the last years. And this was the reason I listed some great PS3
games, games that don't feel like they're missing a keyboard or a mouse.

And I make a further claim. I claim that you won't be any faster using a
keyboard against anyone in the top10 or even top20 who know how to treat the
d-pad and analog stick, respectively, not under normal racing conditions nor
under ZONE. From ZONE I can tell you that the analog stick is irreplaceable
for some turns / tracks. No matter how good one can control the d-pad, some
turns can't be managed with the d-pad at very high speed, nor would be a
keyboard of any help. Anyway. How many hours have you played WipEout HD using
the d-pad & L1/R1 to claim that the DS3 is not suited for WipEout HD? And why
do you think you would be "better off using a keyboard"? How do you measure
'better'? What's the metric? If it just applies to you, no problem. But if
you speak in general terms, then I hope you can actually proof it.

But don't get me wrong, I don't want you to distract from trying to play
WipEout HD with a keyboard and having fun with it. I would even try it myself
just for the sake of it. Anyhow, my statement simply is that K+M isn't the
Holy Grail as many PC gamers do believe it is. From my perspective; you just
haven't given the d-pad & L1/R1 a serious try. And switching over saying that
a keyboard would be better for WipEout HD, without given any proof, is pretty
much prone to generate some long discussions nobody wants to read. xD

[Dan Locke]

I apologize in advance for the extensive quoting, but it's the only way that I can make all of these points simultaneously without degenerating into incoherence.

I think you both don't get my point. It's not that K+M is any bad. But if you would replace the DS3 with K+M and treat a DS3 like a game-pad on a PC (as an afterthought), then most of the games won't be any fun to play. Certainly, there are games playing better with a K+M, but that's just a very small subset of all games. Just to let you know, I've played with K+M for about half of my life starting with Duke Nukem and Quake back in 1996.

But nobody even said that. I don't want a keyboard for Ratchet and Clank; I want it for Wipeout. That's why I made the thread on a Wipeout forum, specifically mentioning a Wipeout game. And it's no secret that I prefer keyboard control for the other games in the series - I could list several reasons here for why it would be better in this case.

Well, my last post was written on a more general perspective (gaming industry). If K+M would be superior for most games, then Microsoft and Sony would have gone this way with the 360 and PS3.

You know why they didn't? Because they're consoles.

But K+M just doesn't lend itself to most games. UT3 has K+M support on the PS3, but it never took off in any way. If it would had made a huge impact, then CoD, KZ2, and others would support K+M as well. But that's just not the case.

Really now? Last I checked, people preferred to play Call of Duty on the PC because of the keyboard and mouse support. Because it does "make a huge impact".

Sure, K+M is more accurate for some games, but I question whether it is any more realistic. If you ask me, it takes more skill to control a DS3 esp. when combos and stuff should also be applied at the same time.

Right, so the challenge shouldn't be in the game itself; it should be in trying to control it. Makes perfect sense, doesn't it?

My comparison was made with respect to PC gaming. How many are going to buy a 3-D TFT for their PC gaming rig? I think many many more people will buy a 3-D TV for console gaming and for watching 3-D Blu-rays and 3-D TV shows. Thing is, it's just not appealing on a PC. You properly have to upgrade your graphics system as well. But there is another problem. The PC has 'no' standard / defaut 3-D input device. K+M doesn't cut it. 3-D is only half the story without such an input device. And as such the PS Move really plays an essential part with respect to 3-D. Not every game will profit from PS Move, obviously, but the PS Move is what makes one connect to the 3rd dimension while viewing stuff in 3-D.

All of that is irrelevant, as you can't "connect to the 3rd dimension" at all without the equivalent of a Holodeck or the Matrix. As it is (and most likely will be until we develop the technology to upload our minds into the games themselves), what you call "3-D gaming" is just the same old stuff that we've had since Battlezone back in the '70s, but forcing the player to mime every action. How is that more fun or immersive? If anything, it's less immersive, as the complete absence of tactile feedback breaks any possible suspension of disbelief.

So, yeah, Natal and its ilk are only good for stuff that I wouldn't consider playing in the first place. The Wii remote and PlayStation Move are, at best, barely-passable replacements for mouse control. (As far as 6DoF positioning goes, the Space Orb did it perfectly back in the '90s.)

However you will turn it, the console have pulled the gaming industry forward within the last years. Graphics performance and unique K+M games are things of the past. They did their job! Speaking of PC today, there aren't even games like MGS4, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain, WipEout HD, GT5, GoW III, etc. on the PC, neglecting the question whether playing them with K+M would yield any benefits.

Remind me how this is in any way related to our discussion. By the way, Metal Gear Solid 4 is a continuation of a series that started out on the MSX (an '80s Japanese PC), Uncharted is essentially a 3D version of Flashback, which was an Amiga game, Wipeout has its roots in Powerdrome on the Atari ST (and let's not forget that the first two installments of the series were released on the PC and Macintosh), and the idea that there's no PC equivalent of Gran Turismo is beyond preposterous.